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Bayne
Seeker
USA
86 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jan 2004 : 12:08:54
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Ok, I need to pose a few questions to you all (in the hopes that you may have the answer). I am a Drow monk in the campaign that we are playing right now, and the only place that that seems to work in is Undrek'Thoz, The Segmented City. Now, it says it The Underdark book that they have a hidden agenda, and if they could get a leverage in power, they would overthrow the priestesses of Lolth and take the city, though they, at this instant, swear allegiance to Lolth and their houses. My question is, if they would overthrow the priestesses of Lolth, is it possible for them to still worship Lolth. And if not, then what God/Goddess would they most likely worship?
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Nindyn vel'uss kyorl nind ratha thalra elyhinn dal lil alust |
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Ezindir the dark
Senior Scribe
Norway
603 Posts |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2004 : 14:51:50
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Indeed, Vhaeraun, is the like candidate. Or the may simply do away with the Gods.... Odds are slim on the latter, and the house is in favor of the former.
Although, any of the Drow gods could make a bid for power there... should lolth be over thrown... |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Ezindir the dark
Senior Scribe
Norway
603 Posts |
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Cherrn
Learned Scribe
Denmark
323 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2004 : 16:00:07
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I think Lolth is just as likely. After all she is the embodiment of chaos. Drow males overthrowing her female clergy while still paying homage to her is the kind of chaos that Lolth likes  |
A wise man from Calimport once told me: "If a merchant puts sand in the flask of oil he's trying to sell you, then he isn't trying to sell you sand..." |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2004 : 02:49:55
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| just becuz priestesses r overthrown, doesnt mean they would stop worshiping the god that priestess worshiped. the drow always slay others that r "less worthy of their stature in the pantheon" tis the chaotic vicious nature of the dark elves, no offense 2 those here that r dark elves, *cough*Shadowlord*cough* |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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Tsynn the Sanguine
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2004 : 23:46:34
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| The members of the Blackened Fist are "bound by their oaths to remain loyal to both their Houses and the Spider Queen" I suppose that they theoretically could worship another diety, but I agree with Cherrn. |
Dosst streea zhah khrusta, Usstan shlu'ta xun ol, xor dos shlu'ta dormagyn uns'aa l' degahr. |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2004 : 00:47:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Dracandos the Spellsage
just becuz priestesses r overthrown, doesnt mean they would stop worshiping the god that priestess worshiped. the drow always slay others that r "less worthy of their stature in the pantheon" tis the chaotic vicious nature of the dark elves, no offense 2 those here that r dark elves, *cough*Shadowlord*cough*
Indeed, there had better not be any offense...
And I still believe that they could be fragmented, as in like, lets say, half worship Lolth, and another half secretly worship the masked lord. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2004 : 03:13:42
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| aye i suppose that could occur |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1477 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2021 : 07:12:16
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I'm tired of Shar being behind everything.
Evil empire? Shar.
Evil alternate magic powers? Shar.
Evil plans for omnicide by a council of individuals in tight leather and black lipstick? Shar.
Gareth Dragonsbane's throne being replaced by a whoopee cushion? Shar.
Elminster's prune juice being replaced by a laxative that causes explosive diarrhea? Shar.
Alustriel's weekly bubblebath orgy being replaced by copious amounts of itching powder and hairloss shampoo? Shar.
There are other evil deities, WotC. Use them.
Well, except for Tiamat who's been turned into a worn-out sponge. |
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Gary Dallison
Great Reader
United Kingdom
6353 Posts |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2021 : 14:17:30
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
I'm tired of Shar being behind everything.
<snip>
Alustriel's weekly bubblebath orgy being replaced by copious amounts of itching powder and hairloss shampoo? Shar.
<snip>
Alright, all that other stuff... whatever... but THIS ONE does it.... absolutely, I'm done with Shar. This cannot be allowed to continue!! |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2021 : 15:30:08
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
There are other evil deities, WotC. Use them.
One of the few things WotC excels at is overusing something. They don't just beat a dead horse, they cast animate dead on it, beat it until it collapses again, keep beating it into oblivion, and then, only after there is nothing at all left of the horse, do they consider finding another. But not immediately; they still squeeze out one or two more books. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 Dec 2021 15:31:11 |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2021 : 16:27:58
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| I think it would be perfectly possible for the Monks to take over Undrek'Thoz while still being loyal to Lolth. There are/were other drow cities out there which followed to Lolth in part or in full without necessarily having the Priestesses on top of the hierarchy. IIRC in Sshamath the city was open to many faiths after the revolution that overthrew the Matrons and the Clergy, but the Priestesses still had a temple in the city and kept the lights on thanks to the patronage and protection of Lolth-following members of the (male-dominated) arcane-spellcasting social elite. There were also some mercantile-oriented cities where my feeling was that the role of the Priestesses was somewhere between ceremonial and bureaucratic with the Merchant houses in real control. So I think it's reasonable to assume that Worship of Lolth isn't entirely dependent on a hierarchy where the Priestesses have ultimate authority. You'd probably be looking at something where the Priestesses are puppets of the Blackened Fist. They already act as their bodyguards, enforcers and assassins, sot much of a push to get to the point where they can stuff the Priestesses in a guilded cage and dictate policy while keeping the trappings of the Church if they so choose. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2021 : 16:39:37
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| I would be more inclined to use Selvetarm for the order. He is already the patron of warriors, his church kinda operates as the military wing of the church of Lolth, and he has worshippers on the surface (at least in 2e) in the Spider Swamp, Forest of Mir, and even in the "Gem City of Calimshan" (not sure what that refers to). |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2021 : 17:13:54
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| That's a good idea. A good theological basis for pivoting away from while still being faithful to Lolth. The followers of Selvetarm do kinda have that 'enforcer/bodyguard' thing going on too, which would be a good fit for the Blackened Fist while giving them a way to control the Priestesses. |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2021 : 17:36:20
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quote:
Originally posted by TKU
That's a good idea. A good theological basis for pivoting away from while still being faithful to Lolth. The followers of Selvetarm do kinda have that 'enforcer/bodyguard' thing going on too, which would be a good fit for the Blackened Fist while giving them a way to control the Priestesses.
The circumstances could be:
Lolth has lost faith in the priestesses of the city. She notifies Selvetarm and he passes to his followers this information and that the city needs to be cleansed of this weakness. The Grand Master of Venom (the leader of the monks) has her group remove the priestesses and installs herself (important part, a majority of the leading monks should be female) as the new leader of the city and promises to lead it to higher glory in Lolth's name. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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Edited by - TheIriaeban on 05 Dec 2021 17:36:59 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2021 : 18:40:34
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It appears to be a throwaway "lolrandum" thing. Whether really random or filling slots in a table, without even trying to think through. Common in d20 materials.
The problem is that monks are required to be Lawful. Which makes unlikely very good relations with any Chaotic deities, whether Lolth or Vhaeraun. For that matter,
Selvetarm could be a good fit, but as a loyal vassal of Lolth he won't let his followers act against her. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2021 : 19:05:52
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As to Lolth allowing her theocracy to be overthrown, obviously she would do so if this happens to be in her interest somehow. Which practically means: ultimately prevents an even greater loss of assets.
But then, it would need to be replaced with something coherent and compatible with her worship, otherwise the whole city-state in question will be lost anyway.
Which what seems to be the case of Sshamath: the economy and power balance changes irrevocably. Matrons fail to adapt, they really should know better, but clearly forgot the lessons of Llurth Dreier. Isn't complacency considered a sin for these people? So no great loss. Result: while Lolth has none of Llurth Dreier, she kept a good chunk of Sshamath, and a half of big prosperous city is more than entirety of what would be left if a more catastrophic failure devastated it.
Church of Selvetarm used for a purge via coup, on the other hand... this would immediately create situation where Selvetarm's organization has sovereignty over the un-purged Lolthite priestesses. Which is clearly not how things should be in the opinion of either deity. Thus also require transition to some other power structure still, which needs to be created first.
It seems far more speculative and precarious than "Lolth trades half of Sshamath to Mystra" plot. And if that one was what happened, well, this doesn't happen every other millennium. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2021 : 20:04:00
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The idea of Lolth-worshipping monastic/assassin orders seems to have been one that was rattling around for a while in 3.X. I don't know if it was quite "lolrandum", but it never quite got fully developed. But you do see it pop up in a few other places besides Undrek'Thoz. Some undead ones show up in Maerimydra, turned by Kiaransalee in 'City of the Spider Queen' and a drow monk/assassin got to be the cover art for the PS2 game 'Dark Alliance'.
As to why? Maybe it was inspiration from the whole Bregan D'aerthe* thing and the observation that mercs and assassins should be a bigger thing than they are in drow society what with all the assassinations and inter-house struggles and so on. Lawful might seem like a strange fit for Drow society and for their religion, but makes a lot of sense if you are looking for somewhat reliable allies. Much like how the wizards are tolerated by the priestesses despite the fact that they step on their toes a lot, I can see the eccentricity/borderline heresy of Lolthite monks being tolerated because of how useful having them around could be.
*Why aren't there other major drow mercenary groups out there, anyways? You'd think they'd be much more prominent than they are, |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2021 : 20:53:27
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quote:
Originally posted by TKU
*Why aren't there other major drow mercenary groups out there, anyways? You'd think they'd be much more prominent than they are,
There likely are, but they're not prominent in Menzoberranzan, and if it's not Menzoberranzan, WotC ignores it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2021 : 22:37:18
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
It appears to be a throwaway "lolrandum" thing. Whether really random or filling slots in a table, without even trying to think through. Common in d20 materials.
The problem is that monks are required to be Lawful. Which makes unlikely very good relations with any Chaotic deities, whether Lolth or Vhaeraun. For that matter,
Selvetarm could be a good fit, but as a loyal vassal of Lolth he won't let his followers act against her.
Per the 2e Demihuman Deities, Lolth and Selvetarm allow LE worshippers and Lolth even allows LE priests. That makes it possible to have a Lolth-aligned monk order within her church. Sadly, Selvetarm doesn't allow LE clergy so they may not be part of the church of Selvetarm but they could be an affiliated order.
Either way, I would picture the monks as an elite force used at the whims of the god. Perhaps the priests of that city were involved in a heresy and the monks were sent in to deal with it. There was an inquisition where the monks seized control of the city until the investigation is completed and those responsible for or participating in the heresy have been dealt with. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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TKU
Learned Scribe
USA
158 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2021 : 23:22:34
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| Kinda like having a precision, reliable tool at your disposal, a scalpel compared to less subtle alternatives like the Militant Mycholar? |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2021 : 02:52:00
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| If that is what I think it is, yes, and something that could in no way be influenced by any priest. |
"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2021 : 17:05:01
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
If that is what I think it is, yes, and something that could in no way be influenced by any priest.
The "drow inquisition" working like this is feasible, but this would require:
1. Clear and specific chain of command. As in, as a whole it should be directly subordinated to a single boss: either formal decisions of the sovereign (the Council of top matrons) or formal "trusted" top position in the local priesthood.
2. Secure in itself, i.e. trustworthy. This part usually is a big problem for the drow.
Church of Selvetarm could pull both (1) and (2), because they are supervised by their divine patron and their power is contingent on loyalty. Others, exactly how?
Since the drow don't expect each other to be incorruptible without a very good reason, without such checks any power group remains in the default position: not trusted a hairs breadth farther than it can be thrown. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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TheIriaeban
Master of Realmslore
USA
1289 Posts |
Posted - 06 Dec 2021 : 20:03:06
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
If that is what I think it is, yes, and something that could in no way be influenced by any priest.
The "drow inquisition" working like this is feasible, but this would require:
1. Clear and specific chain of command. As in, as a whole it should be directly subordinated to a single boss: either formal decisions of the sovereign (the Council of top matrons) or formal "trusted" top position in the local priesthood.
2. Secure in itself, i.e. trustworthy. This part usually is a big problem for the drow.
Church of Selvetarm could pull both (1) and (2), because they are supervised by their divine patron and their power is contingent on loyalty. Others, exactly how?
Since the drow don't expect each other to be incorruptible without a very good reason, without such checks any power group remains in the default position: not trusted a hairs breadth farther than it can be thrown.
That is why the inquisition would have to be done by a lawful group: the results could be trusted and the group could be trusted to give up the power they seized when the time comes. They would stand out in the drow society for exactly that reason and would really need to have their diety's explicit support because the average drow is not going to believe that they are incorruptible (it is that status that would be their "badge of honor", so to speak).
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"Iriaebor is a fine city. So what if you can have violence between merchant groups break out at any moment. Not every city can offer dinner AND a show."
My FR writeups - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/um3liz6tqsf5n/Documents
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 12 Dec 2021 : 14:20:22
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quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
That is why the inquisition would have to be done by a lawful group: the results could be trusted and the group could be trusted to give up the power they seized when the time comes.
"A lawful group" is not the same as "non-magically perma-dominated without any good reason".
Try replacing this with "church of Bane", "beholders" or "illithids". They merely would be inclined to act somewhat more predictably and coordinate better (usually). This would satisfy condition (1). But something that would ensure loyalty is still necessary.
quote:
and would really need to have their diety's explicit support because the average drow is not going to believe that they are incorruptible
Which is condition (2). The priesthood of Selvetarm fits this requirements. A bunch of faux-wuxia monks don't. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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The Blackened Fist
