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Fanatic66
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
 Posted - 03 May 2013 : 14:34:00
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I'm thinking of this background for a certain character I want to write but I'm not sure if its realistic within Realms lore. I want to create a half elf/half drow worshiper of Shevarash. Before anyone says this is impossible yet, let me give you some background. I haven't figured out all the details (names, exact locations) so bear with me.
A drow raiding party attacks an elven village on the surface. One of the drow raiders raped one of the elves. After the raiders returned back to the Underground, that same elven girl becomes pregnant. The elf raises the half-elf/half-drow child. Some decades later, another drow raiding party attacks the village. During the attack, drow kill the same elven mother. The child tries to defend her but he's too young and not skilled enough to stop her murder. Surviving the attack, the young man vows to find the drow that killed his mother. Also feeling outcasted from other elves due to his half-drow heritage, he grows to hate drow and wants to avenge his mother.
Could you all see Shevarash followers accepting this character, even though he is half-drow? Could this character possibly be allowed to become a priest of Shevarash (I was thinking possibly a mix between ranger and cleric)?
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2013 : 14:44:45
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As per Demihuman Deities, the pre-eminent source for the elven and other non-human pantheons, no. It specifically states: "Dark elves and half-dark elves are never called to ... Sheverash's clergy."
Now, that doesn't mean a half-drow couldn't worship Shevarash. Remember, most people (including clerics) worship most gods in Faerun. And it would make sense for a character with that background to lean toward Shevarash more than others as he wants vengeance. But as a cleric? No. Shevarash hates drow too much to accept one (or a half one) in his clergy.
If you want a half-drow cleric of vengeance, Hoar is probably your best bet. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Ze
Learned Scribe
Italy
147 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2013 : 15:02:18
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Unless you choose to play a Ranger who will not receive spells until he finds a way to get rid of his half-drow legacy.
Not an easy task, but you didn't sketch an easy character either there.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2013 : 15:17:43
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Ultimately it's up to you and your DM. Personally, this is the type of background idea I'm usually attracted to as a player...something with a conflicting nature. But, as Hoondatha says, strictly within the Realms lore it isn't possible. Even being a lay worshiper of Shevarash would be difficult in this context as it begs the question of Shevarash being willing to accept the PCs soul upon death (I would lean towards NO in a strict campaign).
I could see Corellon accepting him into the fold (although this doesn't seem to mesh with your character concept). Perhaps the way to go is to build a story arc in which Shevarash comes to accept the PC as a worshiper in time. I think such an occurrence would require the PC REALLY holding true to the tenets of the faith and pulling off a few quests that truly favor the cause (rescuing a favored follower, severely curtailing the activities of drow and slaying them with extreme prejudice).
I have to say, I see some real potential here as a PC concept...even if you aren't allowed into the fold. Heh, Im the type of player that would draw up an elven character as a potential love interest for your PC just for the added nuance for yours. Good luck, it's a great idea. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2013 : 17:22:59
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As far as I remember, elves born of parents of different subraces will develop as one of their parents. Being so, he would be born a drow or a surface elf. Being a drow, I think it would be very difficult for the elves to accept him in clergy, and maybe even to let him be raised in their community. If he looks like a surface elf, it would be easier, but it can also depend on the other elves knowing he has drow ancestry.  |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Fanatic66
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2013 : 19:17:38
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Hm...I thought it was a long shot but I wanted to try to see if I could pull it off with a dark enough backstory. I also was trying to keep my character's patron deity within the Seldarine for flavor and it makes sense because of his elvish upbringing. To be honest I don't know much about Hoar. After some research, he sounds cool (his dogma sounds awesome) but I don't know if I like that he is LE now and an exarch of Bane. I also have a hard time imagining how my character (who was brought up in and lives in an elvish area) would discover Hoar enough to follow him.
@The Arcanamach, thanks, I might go with Corellon just for simplicity sake and keeping with the elven heritage but you're right that Corellon doesn't mesh well. He's too nice and not enough vengeance for me.
Barastir, I want my character to look like a drow except for some small physical traits from his mother(green eyes and silver hair), so he looks like a regular drow but with weird eyes for a drow.
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Edited by - Fanatic66 on 03 May 2013 19:19:11 |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2013 : 20:08:39
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| Bloodwalk, by James Davis has a Hoarite in it. He's all about revenge. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2013 : 00:20:40
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I had a have a half drow character who used to be a layworshiper of Shevarash, but he had to spill some of his ""tainted" blood every month. Of course, this is RP through writing, so D&D rules do not apply. But Shevarash has always intrigued me.
Corellon is also a god of war. He certainly doesn`t have Shev`s thirst for vengence, but it was Corellon Shevarash swore his oath (and the oath all his followers take) when he was a mortal on the Night of the Dark Court Slaughter. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2013 : 03:02:39
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Personally, as a DM, I'd allow worshiper, but not priest. And only a worshiper after some perlonged taking of names.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2013 : 06:53:33
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If you want a strict lore interpretation, Hoondatha gave it to you.
However, I would allow such a character in a game. I'm a bit iffy on the cleric aspect, but I would be fine if he was a heretical cleric. That being said there is absolutely no way the other faithful of Shevarash would accept your character. (At least in the beginning.)
As a DM I'd want to know three things. First, exactly how much does your character hate the drow? Second, exactly how far is your character willing to go to see them wiped out? Third, how does your character feel about the other faithful of Shevarash viewing him as an abomination that needs to be slain outright?
If your character displayed a sufficient level of hatred of the drow; as in he'd cut drow babies from their mothers wombs and stomp them to death without remorse. -AND- If your character displayed a sufficient level of self-hatred; as in the only reason he doesn't kill himself is because it would mean that too many drow would survive. -THEN- I'd totally let him be a cleric of Shevarash.
I believe Sheverash would love turning such a being into his weapon of genocidal mass destruction. (And as a reward in the afterlife, purging his drow nature from his very soul.)
Anything short of that, and I don't really see him being a cleric unless you're attempting to create some type of heresy. A ranger? Possibly, but not a cleric.
To be a cleric in my eyes, such a character would pretty much have to be a complete monster in the eyes of both the elves and the drow. Someone Drow priestesses fear more than Lolth herself - an individual whose so consumed with hatred that he's on a literal genocidal crusade, and there are no depths that he wouldn't plunge - no sacrifices he wouldn't be willing to make - to massacre as many drow as possible. In fact, the only regret he'd have in killing drow would be that he couldn't make them suffer more than their wretched abominable existence already forced them to suffer. |
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Fanatic66
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2013 : 15:09:44
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| After reading all this, I'm going to not have him worship Shevarash. He'll probably worship Hoar or mayber Corellon. I thought Shevarash was CN? You guys are making him sound like a psycho, blood hungry CE God instead. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2013 : 19:13:24
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No, just very, very single-minded. Remember, Shevarash was a wood elf who lost his entire family to the drow sneak attack during the Dark Court Slaughter. He then spent more than three hundred years hunting down and killing every drow he could find. In all of those three hundred and thirty years, he never smiled. When the drow finally took him down, the Seldarine promptly turned him into a god so he could continue his work.
He's described as "consumed with hatred and vengeance," but it's very tightly focused on enemies of the elves. He has allies among not only the Seldarine, but several other pantheons. He might be a psychopath (he certainly would be if he were mortal), but he's a very tightly wrapped one. Sort of in the vein of the Doctor, as in "Good men don't need rules; today is not the day to find out why I have so many."
I think they got his alignment spot on. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Fanatic66
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2013 : 19:35:40
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| I can understand the vengeance part, but supporting genocide should be more CE than CN. Even if he is CN, I can't imagine any of his followers being CG. It's hard to do the work of genocide as a good person. It sounds like Shevarash isn't that different from the race he hates, his skin is just lighter. I have a tough time imagining the good deities of the Seldarine supporting a psychopath. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2013 : 21:42:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Fanatic66
I can understand the vengeance part, but supporting genocide should be more CE than CN. Even if he is CN, I can't imagine any of his followers being CG. It's hard to do the work of genocide as a good person. It sounds like Shevarash isn't that different from the race he hates, his skin is just lighter. I have a tough time imagining the good deities of the Seldarine supporting a psychopath.
He's not doing genocide for the sake of doing genocide. He sees the drow as a dire threat to his people. From what he's experienced, the drow cannot be reasoned with or otherwise treated in a civilized manner, so the only way to free his people from the threat of murder and torture at the hands of the drow is to go after the drow himself.
Or to put it another way, he's not saying kill drow because they are drow -- he's saying to kill drow to keep them from killing elves. Pre-emptive self-defense, not murder. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2013 : 22:08:08
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| Shevarash fascinates me (yet I like drow), and I have a few characters who are Shevarashans. One is actually a formal follower of Shev, but he fell in love with a drow (and was not struck down by the Black Archer's vengeance, surprisingly), and he actually compared Shevarash to being the very thing he hates. But I believe with what Wooly said. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2013 : 22:41:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
No, just very, very single-minded. Remember, Shevarash was a wood elf who lost his entire family to the drow sneak attack during the Dark Court Slaughter. He then spent more than three hundred years hunting down and killing every drow he could find. In all of those three hundred and thirty years, he never smiled. When the drow finally took him down, the Seldarine promptly turned him into a god so he could continue his work.
He's described as "consumed with hatred and vengeance," but it's very tightly focused on enemies of the elves. He has allies among not only the Seldarine, but several other pantheons. He might be a psychopath (he certainly would be if he were mortal), but he's a very tightly wrapped one. Sort of in the vein of the Doctor, as in "Good men don't need rules; today is not the day to find out why I have so many."
I think they got his alignment spot on.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Fanatic66
I can understand the vengeance part, but supporting genocide should be more CE than CN. Even if he is CN, I can't imagine any of his followers being CG. It's hard to do the work of genocide as a good person. It sounds like Shevarash isn't that different from the race he hates, his skin is just lighter. I have a tough time imagining the good deities of the Seldarine supporting a psychopath.
He's not doing genocide for the sake of doing genocide. He sees the drow as a dire threat to his people. From what he's experienced, the drow cannot be reasoned with or otherwise treated in a civilized manner, so the only way to free his people from the threat of murder and torture at the hands of the drow is to go after the drow himself.
Or to put it another way, he's not saying kill drow because they are drow -- he's saying to kill drow to keep them from killing elves. Pre-emptive self-defense, not murder.
I agree with everything Wooly and Hoondatha wrote.
Just to make clear about the character hurtles I outlined... The reason I set them so high and clearly in the extremist territory is because being a half-drow your character would have to go well above and beyond what would be expected of any normal Elven cleric of Shevarash. This is how your character becomes an exception to the rule.
To a follower of Sheverash questioning why they kill Drow makes as much sense as asking why they fight Demons. They do it because they're evil by nature and are a threat to Elves. It's debatable whether or not all drow are born evil, or whether that evil arises as a result of their culture. The fact is the overwhelming majority of Drow are a threat to the Elves and are evil.
From the point of view of a worshiper of Sheverash you could debate whether or not Drow could be redeemed. Even if they conceded the point that some Drow could potentially be redeemed, killing them in their war against the Drow as a whole just makes them unfortunate collateral damage. In the same way in any war innocent people will inevitably be hurt (directly or indirectly) and potentially killed.
They are actively waging a guerrilla war on the Drow whenever they possibly can.
I would also point out that according to Faiths and Pantheons Sheverash can have Chaotic Evil Clerics. |
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Fanatic66
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2013 : 23:10:57
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Shevarash fascinates me (yet I like drow), and I have a few characters who are Shevarashans. One is actually a formal follower of Shev, but he fell in love with a drow (and was not struck down by the Black Archer's vengeance, surprisingly), and he actually compared Shevarash to being the very thing he hates. But I believe with what Wooly said.
That's my problem. On his path for vengeance, he might become nearly as evil as the drow he hates.
@Aldrick, some of your hurdles make sense but willing "to cut drow babies out of their mother's stomachs" sounds awfully evil to me. Maybe its just my view, but that kind of act seems more evil than morally gray. And that's my problem with Shevarash right now. Before I thought of him as a morally gray guy, but now he seems more like a )justified) psychopath willing to do anything.
@Wooly, I don't think he wants to do genocide for the sake of genocide. Everyone has reasons for what they do. This still doesn't change he supporting genocide of an entire race. This would be fine if Drow were completely evil all the time, but we know this isn't the case. We also know Shevarash followers acknowledge that good drow do exist so they know drow aren't absolutely evil beings.
Basically, there's a line and I'm not sure if Shevarash crosses it or not, but he's certainly very close to crossing it. |
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Fanatic66
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2013 : 23:11:54
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Shevarash fascinates me (yet I like drow), and I have a few characters who are Shevarashans. One is actually a formal follower of Shev, but he fell in love with a drow (and was not struck down by the Black Archer's vengeance, surprisingly), and he actually compared Shevarash to being the very thing he hates. But I believe with what Wooly said.
That's my problem. On his path for vengeance, he might become nearly as evil as the drow he hates.
@Aldrick, some of your hurdles make sense but willing "to cut drow babies out of their mother's stomachs" sounds awfully evil to me. Maybe its just my view, but that kind of act seems more evil than morally gray. And that's my problem with Shevarash right now. Before I thought of him as a morally gray guy, but now he seems more like a )justified) psychopath willing to do anything.
@Wooly, I don't think he wants to do genocide for the sake of genocide. Everyone has reasons for what they do. This still doesn't change he supporting genocide of an entire race. This would be fine if Drow were completely evil all the time, but we know this isn't the case. We also know Shevarash followers acknowledge that good drow do exist so they know drow aren't absolutely evil beings.
Basically, there's a line and I'm not sure if Shevarash crosses it or not, but he's certainly very close to crossing it. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2013 : 23:57:35
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Shevarash is definitely very close to crossing the line. He's right there at the edge, with one foot dangling over.
Shevarash "has moderated his hatred toward Eilistraee and the good-aligned drow who worship the Dark Maiden. He does not kill them out of hand, but he still dislikes them thoroughly." This is a far cry from "acknowledging that good drow exist" - it's more along the lines of, "the only reason I don't kill you is because Corellon foolishly protects you, but if you get in my way even he won't be able to save you."
I would note that this is for the deity himself, and not necessarily for his faithful. The Chaotic Good clerics of Shevarash may accept - to some degree - the faithful of Eilistraee with mistrust and skepticism. The Chaotic Evil clerics of Shevarash may still promote their deaths anyway, and the Chaotic Neutral clerics of Shevarash may fall on either end of these extremes or somewhere in the middle.
A church is made up of individuals who don't always 100% agree with each other. Different clerics will interpret the dogma differently. The dogma states: "The greatest enemy of the Seldarine is Lolth, who sought the corruption of Arvandor and the overthrow of the Creator. The greatest enemy of the Fair Folk is the drow, the debased followers of the Spider Queen who long ago were enmeshed in her dark web. Redemption and revenge may be achieved through the utter destruction of the drow and the dark powers they serve. Only then may the joy of life begin anew. Hunt fearlessly!"
The "utter destruction of the drow and the dark powers they serve" is pretty unambiguous and straight forward.
Here is how other Elves view those who worship Shevarash: "Although the dedication and passion with which Shevarashan priests pursue their hated quarry is much appreciated by their kin, few elves can understand the intense, all-consuming hatred that consumes members of this faith. To the Fair Folk, the all-consuming hunger for vengeance exhibited by Shevarashan avengers has more in common with the wars waged by the N'Tel'Quess than it does with elven sensibilities. As such, there is a measure of pity among elves for the sad fate of those who join this cult out of grief, and many elven theologians doubt that the spirits of those who follow the Black Archer are able to ascend to Arvandor when they inexorably fall to the overwhelming spells and blades of the drow."
So, basically - the point is, this is the base line for the average cleric of Shevarash. A half-drow in order to receive divine spells would have to go much, much, much further than this. Even then, I'd argue that your character would still be seen as nothing more than a tool or weapon in the eyes of Shevarash. He would remain, at his heart, a disgusting abomination. The worst sort of union that an elf could make with another race. The only reason he'd grant you spells would be because you'd be useful in his war to "utterly destroy the drow and the dark powers they serve." As reward for loyal service, and perhaps the reason such a character would serve him in the first place, his spirit would be cleansed of the drow-taint upon it.
Such a character likely willingly accepts that there is no place in Arvandor for him, and knows that he is a complete and utter monster. ...but would hold out hope that in some small pitiful way that his actions would redeem him enough to have the taint upon his soul that was created by his parents union lifted. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2013 : 00:07:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Fanatic66
After reading all this, I'm going to not have him worship Shevarash. He'll probably worship Hoar or mayber Corellon. I thought Shevarash was CN? You guys are making him sound like a psycho, blood hungry CE God instead.
He's right at the border of how evil you can be while still being considered CN.
There's a short story about some of his worshippers raiding some drow outpost and the only survivor is a small drow child (after they just killed her mother).
One of the shevarans takes a pity and wants to spare the child, the others just kill her and the child and call it a day. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2391 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2013 : 00:08:32
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^ That was Lisa Smedman, and writing about FR gods at that. With strange details neither making much sense, nor fitting into existing lore (here was a thread somewhere), as usual. So YMMV. I propose to call discontinuity in such cases.
But practically, yes, on worshipper level it's not going to be pretty, especially given that elves are prone to throwing "them all!!1" hissyfits at lesser stimuli.
As to the original question - why bother? If you want a "self-hating drow" joke, there's already one custom-made butt for it. The one that stuck in the copier.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 05 May 2013 00:17:50 |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2013 : 03:12:31
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@Fanatic: I don't see any reason for you to abandon the character concept (if Im understanding you correctly). I think you could still be a lay worshiper with all the trimmings. I don't know how your group does things but when I DM I find out what it is my players want for their PCs and then work those goals/ideas into the campaign. In this case I would likely try to work an eventual acceptance of the PC by Shevarash into the story...and I don't think you would need to go 'over the top' evil/genocidal to accomplish it. The PCs dedication to the cause would have to be unswerving/unflinching and lengthly IMO. I also would disallow any priestly class (although I would allow a non-spellcasting ranger as outlined in UA).
Now, in my homebrew, Eilistraee still lives (I refuse to play 4e) and if that were to be the case in your campaign as well you might find it interesting to play a PC who starts out with your original concept and then 'transcends' his self-hatred enough to overcome the darker part of his nature and find his heart in tune with Eilistraee's teachings. Just a thought.
Again, I really like your concept and you have me wanting to play a similar character now. After so many years (20+) of gaming I'm thrilled to find that there are still great ideas and concepts to be discovered! |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2013 : 03:28:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Mirtek
quote:
Originally posted by Fanatic66
After reading all this, I'm going to not have him worship Shevarash. He'll probably worship Hoar or mayber Corellon. I thought Shevarash was CN? You guys are making him sound like a psycho, blood hungry CE God instead.
He's right at the border of how evil you can be while still being considered CN.
There's a short story about some of his worshippers raiding some drow outpost and the only survivor is a small drow child (after they just killed her mother).
One of the shevarans takes a pity and wants to spare the child, the others just kill her and the child and call it a day.
Both the drow child and the elf who saved him, Sorrell, were male. "Necessary Sacrifices" was the first I had heard of Shevarah. Exploring the psyche of Shevarashan follower would be interesting to explore, so Fanatic66, if you are having trouble playing it out in a game, RP through writing with a friend. That is what I do |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Rhymn
Acolyte
17 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2013 : 22:16:40
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| Hmmm, Solonor and Fenmarel (one of my own favorites) are said to be close to Shevarash and just as serious about protecting their people. Worship of either would get you closer to a hard, grim drow-hunter than Corellon and you'd get to stay within the Seldarine. There would likely still be some conflict with those gods, but I would think a drow worshiper of Shevarash would be a bridge too far. Can a god refuse the worship of a mortal? |
Mystra Lives |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2013 : 23:17:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhymn
Hmmm, Solonor and Fenmarel (one of my own favorites) are said to be close to Shevarash and just as serious about protecting their people. Worship of either would get you closer to a hard, grim drow-hunter than Corellon and you'd get to stay within the Seldarine. There would likely still be some conflict with those gods, but I would think a drow worshiper of Shevarash would be a bridge too far. Can a god refuse the worship of a mortal?
No, a deity can't refuse the worship of a lay person. They could send dream visions to their clergy to more properly 'guide' a lay worshiper, or if the lay worshiper is particularly offensive to the deity to potentially slay the lay worshiper. (Example: Gruumsh finds it offensive that an Elf worships him, so he sends dream visions to one of his clerics to slay the Elf. It's no different than Umberlee sending visions to her clergy about ships and sailors that offend her.)
However, this isn't about a lay worshiper. This is about whether or not an offensive individual to the deity could receive divine spells from the deity. The Gods -DO- have the ability to deny divine power to their faithful. However, nothing stops someone from creating a heresy surrounding a particular deity. Even if the god found the heresy offensive and wanted it stopped, another deity could be secretly granting the faithful that believe in the heresy divine spells.
For example, a Half-Drow who was good aligned, who believed in dealing with the drow more justly and fairly, even to the point of outright aligning with the faithful of Eilistraee. Shevarash would be frothing at the mouth pissed about this, and would clearly deny those clerics spells. However, unknown to the clerics and other divine casters who follow this heresy they are secretly receiving their divine powers from Eilistraee. Eilistraee could do this for any number of reasons, but the most obvious is to attempt to create conflict among the faithful of Shevarash to get them to moderate their tone by accepting her worshipers as allies. Then united they could work together against Lolth and seek to redeem more Drow.
This would put Shevarash in a difficult position. It could force him to accept the heresy as true, and thus altering himself to accept the heretics as part of his faithful. Alternatively, if enough faithful of Shevarash embrace the heresy Eilistraee could reveal and alter herself to accommodate them thus greatly weakening Shevarash if not out right causing him to lose his divinity from lack of worshipers. |
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Mirtek
Senior Scribe
595 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2013 : 00:01:41
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quote:
Originally posted by RhymnCan a god refuse the worship of a mortal?
How do you define "refuse"?
Being pffended that this mortal is praying to him at all and wanting him to stop?
Or refusing to take the soul after death?
I think the later is easy, the former would require to send worshipers to stop the mortal. |
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Rhymn
Acolyte
17 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2013 : 02:38:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Even if the god found the heresy offensive and wanted it stopped, another deity could be secretly granting the faithful that believe in the heresy divine spells.
For example, a Half-Drow who was good aligned, who believed in dealing with the drow more justly and fairly, even to the point of outright aligning with the faithful of Eilistraee. Shevarash would be frothing at the mouth pissed about this, and would clearly deny those clerics spells. However, unknown to the clerics and other divine casters who follow this heresy they are secretly receiving their divine powers from Eilistraee. Eilistraee could do this for any number of reasons, but the most obvious is to attempt to create conflict among the faithful of Shevarash to get them to moderate their tone by accepting her worshipers as allies. Then united they could work together against Lolth and seek to redeem more Drow.
This would put Shevarash in a difficult position. It could force him to accept the heresy as true, and thus altering himself to accept the heretics as part of his faithful. Alternatively, if enough faithful of Shevarash embrace the heresy Eilistraee could reveal and alter herself to accommodate them thus greatly weakening Shevarash if not out right causing him to lose his divinity from lack of worshipers.
Ah yes, the same thing Set did to Sseth. That would be a very interesting twist to the character. Though apart from the problems you mentioned, such a heresy would likely divide the Seldarine. |
Mystra Lives |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2013 : 06:00:06
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Yes, absolutely. However, conflict isn't necessarily a bad thing. In fact, if such a heretical cult were successful and Shevarash was forced to accept their heresy as true; then he'd be shifting from Chaotic Neutral (almost Chaotic Evil) to Chaotic Good.
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However, I'd likely run things differently if I were accepting 4E as canon, or even just the events of the Lady Penitent trilogy.
I'd argue that Eilistraee has simply sacrificed her divinity to Corellon at the end of the Lady Penitent trilogy, and has become an Archfey. A hundred years or so from that point in time, she's now attempting to return to divinity to lead the newly transformed Dark Elves (former Drow and their descendants). As well, she intends to continue her quest to redeem the remaining Drow.
She would continue to be opposed by Shevarash, who would also oppose the newly transformed Dark Elves believing "once a Drow, always a Drow." In fact, he'd have his faithful actively hunting them believing that their redemption could only happen through their destruction.
This creates the perfect opportunity to create a wedge within the faith. Some of the faithful may doubt this course of action, believing that the Drow can truly be redeemed and transformed. That's where Eilistraee as an Archfey comes into play.
She would begin speaking to the faithful of Shevarash who have doubts through dream visions. She would masquerade as Shevarash giving counter orders and what not to undermine his efforts against the Dark Elves. Meanwhile she'd begin appearing to the Dark Elves themselves as Eilistraee returned.
She would cultivate a heresy within the church of Shevarash, which would lead to a outright schism. The heretics would align themselves with the faithful of Eilistraee, and begin building close ties as they work against the orthodox church of Shevarash as well as the machinations of the servants of the Spider Queen.
Depending on the actions of the PC's, this would ultimately result in the heretics "winning" and Eilistraee returning to divinity within the Seldarine Pantheon as the patron of the Ssri-tel-quessir (Dark Elves) - basically, her mothers old role. Shevarash would end up losing his divinity (lack of sufficient number of worshipers) and basically becoming a powerful Archfey himself. (Though this would only be temporary.)
The ascension and return of Eilistraee would be marked with a dream vision to all of the faithful of both Eilistraee and the heretics of Shevarash. They'd see something like Shevarash smiling for the first time, and then warmly and lovingly embracing Eilistraee before slowly merging into her. The two churches would then start to become united under the banner of Eilistraee.
Eilistraee
Lesser Goddess
Portfolio: Dance, Defender of the Elven Peoples, Moonlight, Redemption, Song, Ssri-tel-quessir (Dark Elves), Swordwork
Alignment: Chaotic Good
Her portfolio changes would be the following: She gains the "Defender of the Elven Peoples" portfolio, which is a nod to her absorption of the heretics of Shevarash. Instead of being motivated by vengeance and the like, they are motivated to defend the Elves from the Drow and other threats. They are not motivated out of loss, bitterness, or hatred but instead out of a love for their people.
She also gains the "Redemption" portfolio, as a nod to her role in dealing with the Drow. Her goal is to redeem them, and her Church would eventually unlock the secrets to a divine ritual to cleanse individual Drow of their taint and their curse by transforming them into Ssri-tel-quessir (Dark Elves - as they were before the Fall). This would be done on an individual by individual basis, and only those who truly seek redemption could be transformed.
She'd lose the portfolios of "beauty" and "hunting", since they are both already held by Hanali Celanil and Solonor Thelandira.
Eventually, I'd have her obtain the portfolios of "destiny" and "fate". These are obviously her mothers former portfolios when she was Araushnee. This is an obvious slap in Lolth's face, making it pretty clear "you've been replaced."
I'd see Eilistraee - in this form - as gaining fairly wide support among the Elves and being fairly well accepted within the Seldarine Pantheon.
That leaves us with what happens with Shevarash. I personally wouldn't leave him as an Archfey for long. However, as those who continue to worship him would be mostly chaotic evil who favor genocide against the Drow he'd start to twist to reflect that. He'd finally fall over the slippery slope he always had one foot dangling over.
I'd have him eventually regain divinity with the following portfolios.
Shevarash
Demigod
Portfolio: Bitterness, Crusades, Genocide, Hatred, Loss, Vengeance
Alignment: Chaotic Evil
He'd gain the portfolio of "bitterness" to reflect his feelings over being outcast from the Seldarine. This aspect of Shevarash basically plays upon Elves who feel that they are on the outside of Elven society, but not quite outcasts - especially Elves who have hatred in their hearts.
He'd also gain the portfolio of "genocide" which would reflect his preferred method of dealing with the Drow as well as the other enemies of the Elves.
His portfolio of "hatred of the drow" would become contracted to merely "hatred." This would reflect a change I'd create in him to give him a broader scope. One of the ways I'd have him return to divinity would be to basically lure the Eldreth Veluuthra into his church. Thus, they'd finally have a deity they could turn to and receive divine spells from.
Basically, I'd start to paint Shevarash as a deity whose fallen from grace and has been exiled from the Seldarine for his genocidal tendencies. He'd basically be the embodiment of the Nietzschean aphorism: "He who fights against monsters should take care that he does not become a monster. If you gaze long into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
Thus he started out as a good guy, even a hero, who ended up fighting against evil for all the wrong reasons. He was motivated by his hatred, his bitterness, and his loss. And as he fought against the evils of Lolth and the Drow he became more and more twisted with time, until he himself became a monster just like them. Though he's able to justify his actions in his mind as necessary, which merely leads him further and further into the abyss.
Over time I'd have Shevarash secretly slay Fenmarel Mestarine. Fenmarel - as an outcast himself - would remain his ally even after Shevarash is cast out of the Seldarine. However, his loyalty would ultimately remain with the Seldarine, and when Shevarash discovers that Fenmarel is revealing his plans and information to Corellon (basically betraying him); he kills him in an enraged fury.
However, to cover up what he's done he assumes Fenmarel's identity. He does this in the hope of some day getting close enough to Corellon to assassinate him. He'd become convinced that Corellon has lost his way and is leading the Elves to their doom, and that only he can save his people from destruction.
This would nicely mimic Lolth's betrayal and attempted assassination of Corellon, and thus has an interesting poetic quality to it... basically repeating the same mistakes of his arch enemy and effectively walking in her footsteps.
However, I'd have that as a long term conflict building up over time. Meanwhile, after he takes out Fenmarel I'd give Shevarash the portfolios of "outcasts", "lies", "betrayal", and "assassination".
I'd have all of this be reflected in the mortal world by larger numbers of Elves becoming drawn to such groups as the Eldreth Veluuthra, and basically adopting an Elven Supremacist attitude. They'd see themselves as protecting their "elven heritage", "elven culture", and "elven way of life" against an outside world that is constantly encroaching upon them... and Shevarash would be a deity who "gets it" whereas Corellon would be seen as a deity who doesn't. In truth, of course, they'd be corrupting themselves and their culture as they become twisted with bitterness and hatred. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 21:20:57
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That seems really well-thought out, and I applaud you for that, but...I don't really want Shev to be evil (I'm all for Eilistraee coming back though) or have him kill Fenmarel, and leading to the eventual downfall of the elves. I'm tired of deities being offed, and the Seldarine was one of the few pantheons untouched by the Spellplague, unless you count Hanali and Sehanine actually being aspects of Sune and Selune. I wasn't too happy about that, but I can live with it. Eilistraee was kind of part of the Seldarine--I believe she had access to Arvandor--and she died, but that was prior to the Spellplague. I wasn't happy about her death, either.
I like Shevarash. He is a twisted, bitter soul, to be sure, and in some ways is blinded by his hatred, but I believe if he got out of hand, Corellon would put him in time-out. He would be the deity most likely to switch to an evil alignment, that is true, but if that happened, he'd probably be kicked out of Arvandor, just as Lolth was.
I would, however, like to see more of the "interaction", if you will, between followers of Eilistraee and Shevarashans. But, since Wizards doesn't seem interested in such things, I doubt it will happen. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2013 : 21:27:43
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| Whatever it takes to get Eilistraee back. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2013 : 00:29:59
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EILISTRAEE LIVES!!! In my campaign anyway. 
I agree about CD about the death of deities. It should be extremely rare and the FR seems to have made their death's just another day at the office. I love to see interaction between them and their followers... but killing them off is rather cheap IMHO. Don't even get me started on the Mystran reboot occurring every other day.
Eilistraee is one of my favorite deities and now that this thread has me taking a closer look at Shev Im finding him to be just has interesting as her.
@Aldrick: You have a very well thought out plan there. But I dont care for deities (even minor ones) being killed off. I'm also not a BIG fan of deities 'changing' either (although I am good with that up to a point as well).
I look at a deitie's fundamental 'nature' as being a sort of 'imperfect reflection' of their followers. A decent analogy would be a person's reflection in a rippling pond. Identical, yet different at the same time. A deity isn't 'locked' into being a perfect reflection but is required to at least PRETEND/TRY to reflect the needs of mortals. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Half-Drow Worshiper of Shevarash Possible?
