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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Apr 2013 : 21:16:01
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In relation to my last scroll, this one involves another side project of mine, which hasn’t quite gotten off the ground yet, but is most definiately in the planning stages. Since you’ve guys given me plenty of ideas before, I’m sturring the pot for this one. The essential working base assumption, the “A” in the entire argument if you will, is that some of the Netherese believe that Shaar has too much control over the nation of reborn Netherial. Some have studied the “good old days,” enough to believe that Netherial would be better off without so much influence by Shaar. A number of individual factors are related to this, which I shall elaborate on later, but given this, let me know, what do you think?
Note, timeline wise this is taking place in 4e.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2013 : 21:36:59
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Just an FYI, while I ponder this... The Shaar, with two A's, is an area within the Realms. The deity who is currently way too prominent, due in large part to Shade, is Shar, with one A.
I will ponder, and see if I can come up with some relevant ideas. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2013 : 21:45:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well... this solves several questions I've had about FR Geography. Duely noted.
Just an FYI, while I ponder this... The Shaar, with two A's, is an area within the Realms. The deity who is currently way too prominent, due in large part to Shade, is Shar, with one A.
I will ponder, and see if I can come up with some relevant ideas.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2013 : 21:57:53
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Well, I don't know 4e, but if the Netherese hold true to "historical" form, it would be a very individualistic effort. Remember, there never was a Netherese "empire." It was, at best, a conglomeration of city states that shared a similar culture, history, and way of casting magic. There wasn't any sort of central authority.
So the way I'd handle it is basically some lobes of the 4e Nethese empire just declare that they're going their own way. They'll handle things in their city/region, thank you very much. Each new enclave would almost certainly be centered around a single, or very small circle, of powerful wizards. Researching new ways of creating flying enclaves would be high on their list, as that would increase their ability to "go their own way," and because historically Netherese looked down on "groundlings."
The amount that it turned into a civil war would likely depend entirely on how much Shade wants to hold on, and force itself into the role of the central authority Netheril never had. It could likely nuke the first attempted enclave with little difficulty, but such heavy-handedness has at least a 50/50 chance of increasing restlessness. More areas might decide to secede from Shade's empire.
What you could then end up with is Shade fighting a multi-front war against a bunch of smaller cities and newly-born enclaves. They'd be trying desperately to keep up the appearance of being strong to keep the revolt from spreading. I doubt Sembia is happy it was conquered, and if it looks like the rebellion is picking up steam, entire Sembian cities might decide to join in. Shade's neighbors all hate them, so they'd be happy to quietly supply arms, magic, and gold to those rebelling, and maybe even utilize "shadowrunner" style adventurers in strike and fade attacks on Shade's rear areas.
Anyway, that's just some musings of someone who has no idea what Shade looks like in 4e. Take as much of it as seems helpful. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2013 : 23:49:50
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Two quick ways to cause a Netherese Civil war:
Add Selunarra, as this would cause difference between those who favour Shar's Path and those for a united Netheril path.
And/Or
Remove Lord Shadow. Remember Netheril fell because the linchpin Archwizard vanished, which caused chaos and riot, which caused Karsus to cast his spell, which... you know. If Shadow died/vanish/went mad/etc, then the power brokers of Shade who were cowed by his power and legend are allows to follow their plans. Also the common people of New Netheril will likely fall into chaos, riots and the rest.
So two options... So far! |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2013 : 00:10:44
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Netheril fell because one wizard was stupid (Karsus). If he hadn't cast his spell, it would have been around for a while longer. Granted, it probably would have torn itself to pieces in a civil war born of sheer boredom, but it would have taken a while, and there would have been more survivors.
But I agree: if Lord Shadow is one of those rule-with-an-iron-fist despots, and he doesn't have any sort of agreed successor, having him vanish would be quite likely to start a civil war in Shade. And as soon as it really gets going, all of their satellites would start to break away, with results similar to what I described above. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2013 : 00:32:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Netheril fell because one wizard was stupid (Karsus). If he hadn't cast his spell, it would have been around for a while longer. Granted, it probably would have torn itself to pieces in a civil war born of sheer boredom, but it would have taken a while, and there would have been more survivors.
But I agree: if Lord Shadow is one of those rule-with-an-iron-fist despots, and he doesn't have any sort of agreed successor, having him vanish would be quite likely to start a civil war in Shade. And as soon as it really gets going, all of their satellites would start to break away, with results similar to what I described above.
I will say this:
Karsus was going to cast his spell eventually, otherwise why would he create it. When and which god he would cast it one... this might have been up to debate. It was also possible he might used this spell research to create a second become my own god spell given time.
Ioulaum disappearing cause civil unrest, which could have cause civil war. Which Karsus decided could be cure by him casing his spell on Mystryl... and his arrogant and follish mistake lead to...
Think of Ioulaum as the bullet which started WWII with Karsus being the nuke which helped ended it. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2013 : 00:35:46
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| Is Opus involved? |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2013 : 04:12:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Netheril fell because one wizard was stupid (Karsus). If he hadn't cast his spell, it would have been around for a while longer. Granted, it probably would have torn itself to pieces in a civil war born of sheer boredom, but it would have taken a while, and there would have been more survivors.
But I agree: if Lord Shadow is one of those rule-with-an-iron-fist despots, and he doesn't have any sort of agreed successor, having him vanish would be quite likely to start a civil war in Shade. And as soon as it really gets going, all of their satellites would start to break away, with results similar to what I described above.
I would think Rivalen would be the obvious choice of successor as he is the most powerful of the remaining princes (since he is essentially a demigod) and I assume at this point he is the Chosen of Shar. I also did not get the impression that Telamont is a rule with an iron fist despot. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2013 : 09:45:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
In relation to my last scroll, this one involves another side project of mine, which hasn’t quite gotten off the ground yet, but is most definiately in the planning stages. Since you’ve guys given me plenty of ideas before, I’m sturring the pot for this one. The essential working base assumption, the “A” in the entire argument if you will, is that some of the Netherese believe that Shaar has too much control over the nation of reborn Netherial. Some have studied the “good old days,” enough to believe that Netherial would be better off without so much influence by Shaar. A number of individual factors are related to this, which I shall elaborate on later, but given this, let me know, what do you think?
Note, timeline wise this is taking place in 4e.
Given that the only Netherese still extant in any numbers in the Realms are all from Shade, have worshipped Shar for generations and are indoctrinated to believe that she was the reason for their salvation from Karsus' Folly over a millenium ago, I think it a pretty long stretch to think that a group from the general Thultanthar population could create a situation that would even in a small way resemble something akin to a civil war.
Now, if for some reason Shar was to remove her favour and support from Thultanthar, then that might be the appropriate climate for such a change. Noting this, I was very, very interested to read Ed's Shar write-up in his recent "Elminster's Forgotten Realms" product and see this:
"So, if she uses Shade and its princes as her tools now, there will come a day when she destroys them utterly, in favor of someone much weaker and very different. For this is the way of Shar. She is no tyrant to build dark empires."
As someone who lobbied (ultimately unsuccessfully) for a very different and weaker Shade when the 3E Realms was being sorted out, I hope that the 5E Realms will bring the unsubtle, powergame pandering monolith that is Shade down in a crashing heap. Just my 2cp.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2013 : 10:06:21
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I hope that the 5E Realms will bring the unsubtle, powergame pandering monolith that is Shade down in a crashing heap.
I whole heartly agree. They are way to prominent, they are even not following Shars dogma of being behind the scenes and secretive, they are outright in your face. They act more like banites would, yes i said it. Their "conquer all" approach is more fitting for banites than those who follow Shar. Granted Shar wants everything to end in the End but i do not think the Shade want it to happen and suffer a second "Fall of Netheril" at the hands of their "patron" and there we have the conflict. A nihilistic Goddess and her clergy against the worldly ambitions of their empire. Have the Shade either fall and bring back the Zhentarim fully(without Cyric messing things up) or have them switch allegiance to another deity after a religious motivated civil war, i´d say Bane would fit the most for their ambitions (no it is not me playing fanboy, it is me looking who could work for them and still keep them as antagonists for the setting). |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2013 : 14:43:25
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Given that the only Netherese still extant in any numbers in the Realms are all from Shade, have worshipped Shar for generations and are indoctrinated to believe that she was the reason for their salvation from Karsus' Folly over a millenium ago, I think it a pretty long stretch to think that a group from the general Thultanthar population could create a situation that would even in a small way resemble something akin to a civil war.
Unless someone could prove (even if it was manufactured proof) that Shade could have returned much earlier, and Shar herself was blocking the return for her own reasons... 
If someone prominent, like one of the Princes, was to determine and reveal this, it could lead to serious unrest, ultimately culminating in civil war.
Though I think a more likely route to civil war would be a power struggle among the princes. This could really work if something happened to Papa Shade himself, and then the Princes were scrambling around, trying to take the reins.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Now, if for some reason Shar was to remove her favour and support from Thultanthar, then that might be the appropriate climate for such a change. Noting this, I was very, very interested to read Ed's Shar write-up in his recent "Elminster's Forgotten Realms" product and see this:
"So, if she uses Shade and its princes as her tools now, there will come a day when she destroys them utterly, in favor of someone much weaker and very different. For this is the way of Shar. She is no tyrant to build dark empires."
That's long been part of my objection to Shade -- they, and their actions, keep the spotlight on someone who prefers to work in the shadows. It's just not her style.
When I read the bit in one of the books about the deity-hating kir-lanan becoming Shar worshippers, that's when it became obvious to me that someone at WotC had a "push Shar at all costs!" agenda.
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
As someone who lobbied (ultimately unsuccessfully) for a very different and weaker Shade when the 3E Realms was being sorted out, I hope that the 5E Realms will bring the unsubtle, powergame pandering monolith that is Shade down in a crashing heap. Just my 2cp.
-- George Krashos
I know you'll not say, but I'd really love to know who the pro-Shar designers were. I certainly have my suspicions, but I'll drop the topic.
I agree with the rest of your statement, though. The way Shade has been depicted runs counter to the power groups in the Realms have been set up. Shade would be far more interesting as one group among many, as opposed to the main evil group of the setting. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2013 : 14:52:41
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| Here's something I just thought of... If Selûnarra's return was visible to the people of Shade, it would show the citizens of Shade that their exile could have been far, far better. That would be enough to start some discussion about how Shade was trapped in a literally dark place, fighting for their survival for centuries, all at the hands of their supposed savior -- while another surviving enclave had an easy time of it, so easy they weren't in any hurry to return. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2013 : 19:06:36
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Shars motivations behind sponsoring the Netherese of Thultantar (beyond having faerunians mention her name in fear more often,) have never been fully revealed, and she is a fickle mistress who holds ancient secrets even her most high ranking servants are not privvy to. She could drop her favor for a group of more secertive newcomers in a second.
Because of their unique position in the sharran hierarchy a little misinformation could wreak havok amongst the Shade Enclave. I particularly think Telamonts, Brennus' and Rivalens lives can be put in danger by a few well places lies or revealed secrets. Shar herself has damning evidence about Rivalen, and Telamont would likely be devastated by this knowledge, enough to unhinge his shadey composure (Brennus already suspects much of his brother Rivalen). An unhinged monarch is a venerable one, and this could prove an opportunity to one (or more) of the twelve princes to seize control.
As for the reason Shar chose such a visible power group to do her bidding I think Shar might have overestimated them. The Era of Upheaval held opportunities for Shar she could not pass up, and she nearly succeeded in a couple of long term goals. But some of her plans went slightly awry despite the considerable magical power at her disposal. A good group of adventurers and a tenacious chosen of Mask can do that to your plots.
I wonder what group Shar intends to back after she withholds her favour to the Shade enclave. The Dustmen (those nihilists of Sigil) planar faction is a perfect contender in my view, but they might not like to devote energy towards a berk filled place like Faerun. A few powerful undead groups could form around her nihilistic dogma. She might choose to remain in the shadowy parts of the divine stage, by keeping her patrons limited to the fearful and the lost. Her underground Sharran cells were operating just fine before the Return of the Archwizards. She might prefer to limit her organised religion to just these. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2013 : 19:35:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
. . . they are even not following Shar’s dogma of being behind the scenes and secretive . . .
Disagreed. It’s through “working behind the scenes” that they were able to conquer Sembia.
As for not following Shar herself, well, their supreme leader holds the survival and expansion of the empire over their faith (of convenience) in Shar, and said leader had even commanded a Shadovar prince to defy their deity’s wishes. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2013 : 19:39:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Shar herself has damning evidence about Rivalen, and Telamont would likely be devastated by this knowledge, enough to unhinge his shadey composure (Brennus already suspects much of his brother Rivalen).
Would be devastated? Suspects? Not anymore. Or haven’t you read The Twilight War? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1621 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2013 : 20:17:49
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I doubt Shades going anywhere. Still I'm betting on a loss of power the biggest of which would be the loss of Sembia. I mean what's included in Shades territory, The enclaves of Shade and Sakkors, The former ground cities of Netheril in that former desert restored to life, Sembia and a few Dales. If Shade loses Sembia and those Dales it controls then all of a sudden Shade becomes managable, especially if Selunnara returns.
Its still dangerous, but its threat no longer dwarfs all others on a day to day bases.
I mean which threats in the realms excedes Shade right?
The Zhents are a mess, Thay's well too undead and can be managed as long as you keep Tam from buildibg a full dread ring. The Abolethic Soveriegnty has no real on land territory and it was defeated in its invasion by Akanul. The Sarrulk territories are more concern with restoring fertility. The Beastlands are chaotic and have little reach outside the shining south.
Every other evil force is a regional player at best or restrained in someway or in returned Abier which is going away. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2013 : 05:21:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Here's something I just thought of... If Selûnarra's return was visible to the people of Shade, it would show the citizens of Shade that their exile could have been far, far better. That would be enough to start some discussion about how Shade was trapped in a literally dark place, fighting for their survival for centuries, all at the hands of their supposed savior -- while another surviving enclave had an easy time of it, so easy they weren't in any hurry to return.
But likely the Shadovar would not have been more powerful if they had all too easy. As the saying goes, “The greatest adversities test the greatest of warriors.” |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2013 : 05:46:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Here's something I just thought of... If Selûnarra's return was visible to the people of Shade, it would show the citizens of Shade that their exile could have been far, far better. That would be enough to start some discussion about how Shade was trapped in a literally dark place, fighting for their survival for centuries, all at the hands of their supposed savior -- while another surviving enclave had an easy time of it, so easy they weren't in any hurry to return.
But likely the Shadovar would not have been more powerful if they had all too easy. As the saying goes, “The greatest adversities test the greatest of warriors.”
I'm not sure that the average citizen of Shade will see things the same way. The average citizen is going to be more concerned with the day-to-day life they are living, and when they see that the moonies are much more comfortable because their goddess didn't abandon them in hostile territory, they're going to not take it well. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2013 : 08:23:00
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| If there were a civil war, it would be more along the lines of "What would Shar want?" vs "What does the Empire want?" Telamont always supported the Church of Shar though he may not be an avid worshipper himself. He plans always for Empire and if Shar can help, the more the merrier. But as soon as Rivalen's plans (well Shar's really) diverges from Empire, Telamont no doubt already has contingencies for his contingencies for this kind of situation i am sure. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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The Masked Mage
Great Reader
USA
2420 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2013 : 19:19:15
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| I'd definitely say that Shade's involvement with Shar will only weaken with time. They are back in the Prime again. They turned en masse to Shar because it made survival in the harsh environment of the Shadowdeep possible for the less powerful shadowvar. This need is now gone. Shar knows this and has been playing it - getting the most from them while she still has time. With each generation born in Faerun, her church's strength on Shade will diminish. |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2013 : 20:44:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Disagreed. It’s through “working behind the scenes” that they were able to conquer Sembia.
As for not following Shar herself, well, their supreme leader holds the survival and expansion of the empire over their faith (of convenience) in Shar, and said leader had even commanded a Shadovar prince to defy their deity’s wishes.
They were "behind the scenes" yet what do they do?
Publicly waving flying cities in the peoples faces. It would have served Shars purpose better if they had kept up the illusion of "everything fine" in Sembia but in reality it´s them running things like they did before with the many cells across Faerun.
For a deity of secrecy and low profile, the Shade do a horrible job as worshippers in that regard. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2013 : 00:11:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Disagreed. It’s through “working behind the scenes” that they were able to conquer Sembia.
As for not following Shar herself, well, their supreme leader holds the survival and expansion of the empire over their faith (of convenience) in Shar, and said leader had even commanded a Shadovar prince to defy their deity’s wishes.
They were "behind the scenes" yet what do they do?
Publicly waving flying cities in the peoples faces. It would have served Shars purpose better if they had kept up the illusion of "everything fine" in Sembia but in reality it´s them running things like they did before with the many cells across Faerun.
For a deity of secrecy and low profile, the Shade do a horrible job as worshippers in that regard.
Let's not forget that they destroyed Zhentil Keep, too, and have a flying city parked near and fighting with Thay. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2013 : 00:57:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Bane
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Disagreed. It’s through “working behind the scenes” that they were able to conquer Sembia.
As for not following Shar herself, well, their supreme leader holds the survival and expansion of the empire over their faith (of convenience) in Shar, and said leader had even commanded a Shadovar prince to defy their deity’s wishes.
They were "behind the scenes" yet what do they do?
Publicly waving flying cities in the peoples faces. It would have served Shars purpose better if they had kept up the illusion of "everything fine" in Sembia but in reality it´s them running things like they did before with the many cells across Faerun.
For a deity of secrecy and low profile, the Shade do a horrible job as worshippers in that regard.
You missed the point. It was through subterfuge that they were able to turn Sembia's leaders against one another. Then they had to "publicly" show magical strength in order to prove to Selgaunt they were its "allies."
Manipulation is their preferred initial approach. But when it proves insufficient, that's when they resort to destruction. And in destruction there's still loss, and so it still serves Shar's purpose. Not that it matters that much to Telamont, who in the end gives the final say. The Shadowstorm, for instance, could have served Shar greatly, yet the Most High specifically commanded Rivalen to stop it, and even asked Rivalen if he's the right man for the job, given that he's Shar's pet. Shar to Telamont is a faith of convenience. And Telamont IS Shade, so . . . |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2013 : 01:20:34
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I think it can be best explained as a "Deal with the Devil" situation. But instead of selling a soul all at once, the people of The Netheril Empire (Netheril, Sembia and beyond) as well as them realms themselves have been selling shares of their souls to Shar in exchange for her power.
Eventually every person in Netheril, as well as them realm themselves, are going to have to settle their accounts with Shar. Where they will discovered have much of themselves the Dark Maiden owns.
Still it is true, most of the 'nobility' of these realms likely are close to the Faithless then anything else as they see themselves like gods like old Netheril. Which explains why Telamount is looking to embrace undeadhood as it extends his existence on Toril long enough to get to goodhood.
I can see Telamount turning over much influence on his empire to the deity who gives him godhood! As long as he could make sure what strings and payments are attached, which is why Shar has yet to offer him godhood if she can. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2013 : 06:14:09
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| I dont know whether Shar would grace Telamont with godhood or whether he would want it for the near future...I mean even in the Twilight War trilogy, he could have taken the sliver of divinity from his son, but he didnt, he could have but didnt, and he did say that everyday he steps onto the edge of oblivion and manages to step away whereas he knew that Rivalen would fall head first into it. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2013 : 13:45:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
I can see Telamount turning over much influence on his empire to the deity who gives him godhood! As long as he could make sure what strings and payments are attached, which is why Shar has yet to offer him godhood if she can.
I doubt that. As Xar pointed out, Telamont could have stolen part of Kesson Rel’s divine essence which would have essentially made him a demigod. But he let Rivalen do it instead, for reasons yet unknown (though I have some conjectures on that). Besides, having known part of the cause of the fall of old Netheril (Karsus’s attempt at godhood), he must have learned a thing or two. Also, he’s a traditional archwizard, and as we know, most of the archwizards of fallen Netheril thought the gods were nothing but overpowered wizards. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 15 Apr 2013 14:23:12 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2013 : 14:05:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Here's something I just thought of... If Selûnarra's return was visible to the people of Shade, it would show the citizens of Shade that their exile could have been far, far better. That would be enough to start some discussion about how Shade was trapped in a literally dark place, fighting for their survival for centuries, all at the hands of their supposed savior -- while another surviving enclave had an easy time of it, so easy they weren't in any hurry to return.
But likely the Shadovar would not have been more powerful if they had all too easy. As the saying goes, “The greatest adversities test the greatest of warriors.”
I'm not sure that the average citizen of Shade will see things the same way. The average citizen is going to be more concerned with the day-to-day life they are living, and when they see that the moonies are much more comfortable because their goddess didn't abandon them in hostile territory, they're going to not take it well.
I doubt what the average citizens think will matter. Telamont always gets the final say. Besides, they owe it to him that they’re alive when more than half of their fellows perished when Netheril fell.
There’s also the matter of “reclaiming” their land, which changed over the years and was home to many different people and creatures. I don’t think a goodly god like Selune will allow her faithful slay a lot of innocent people, directly or (in the case of melting the High Ice) indirectly.
On the second thought, there’s also Alashar to consider. Alashar meant the world to Telamont, and more so if he hadn’t transformed himself into pure shadowstuff. If he hadn’t served Shar, she might not bother commanding Rivalen to kill his mother so Telamont could feel what “loss” was like.
However, Telamont’s obsession in or affinity to shadow magic would still have ultimately brought him to Shar’s attention, and so she would likely still do what she had already done. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2013 : 14:20:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
I dont know whether Shar would grace Telamont with godhood or whether he would want it for the near future...I mean even in the Twilight War trilogy, he could have taken the sliver of divinity from his son, but he didnt, he could have but didnt, and he did say that everyday he steps onto the edge of oblivion and manages to step away whereas he knew that Rivalen would fall head first into it.
As Brennus pointed out, by letting Rivalen take part of Kesson Rel’s divinity, Rivalen would be totally out of his father’s “control.” Which Telamont himself didn’t bother to counter. I find it unlikely that someone who has “world domination” on the top of his priority list will let someone else take away his role. And as you pointed out, he could have simply commanded Rivalen to go back to Shade and he could have stolen the wretched godling’s divine essence himself. But he didn’t. And there’s one likely reason for that: his contingencies are way more powerful. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2013 : 16:57:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I doubt what the average citizens think will matter. Telamont always gets the final say. Besides, they owe it to him that they’re alive when more than half of their fellows perished when Netheril fell.
We're talking about a civil war, here. Usually, rebelling against the central authority -- Telamont, in this case -- is part of the process.
And my point is the average citizen of Shade comparing their rescue to the rescue of the Selûnarrans. Shade spent centuries in a literally dark place, fighting for their very survival, and having to struggle just to be able to make it back. Selûnarra, on the other hand, was in a warm and nurturing place, the citizens did not have a daily struggle for survival, and their return (for the purposes of my point, they have returned) was at leisure, not another struggle.
In other words, for Shade, they had to endure darkness and conflict because of their leaders, when Selûnarra clearly had a much easier time.
That kind of thing is going to piss people off, even if their "dear leader" doesn't like it. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11703 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2013 : 20:30:01
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| I'd have the Netherese traditionalists wear blue and have gold belt buckles with NS for Netherese Statists. Then, the Sharrans would wear grey, and when they kill a Netherese Statist they take his belt buckle and put it on upside down so that it becomes SN for Sharran Nationalist. Both groups would carry shoulder fired staffs of metal hurling. The Sharrans would obviously be against the taxation of the Netherese which prevents proper tithes to Shar. The Netherese Statists would state they're trying to free the Shadar-Kai from oppression by the Sharrans. Oh, and the Sharrans would sing a song about when "Jaanni" comes marching home again. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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How would you do a Netherese Civil war?
