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Imrathil
Acolyte
Greece
12 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Mar 2013 : 16:18:23
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Aka the Old Ones -Netherese liches and demiliches- who according to the GHotR:
-806DR Laeral casts spells upon the Host Tower, trapping many liches of the Grand Cabal within it.
So if I'm getting this right, in 4th edition the Tower of the Arcane in Luskan has been destroyed. What would that mean for the Old Ones that were trapped in the tower's demiplane? What about the wards keeping them imprisoned there?
Any ideas or speculations would be more than welcome 
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"Until the WoC stopped supporting the Forgotten Realms and replaced it with their own setting, confusedly sharing the same name"
-- Icelander |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2013 : 16:29:18
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Many mundane and magical things alike warped into unrecognizable state when the Spellplauge hit Toril. Such could be the fate of the imprisoned liches. Or if they were lucky, the plague only destroyed or rendered the prison magically malleable and allowed them to escape relatively unscathed.
I vaguely recall there's another thread that discusses this very topic. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Imrathil
Acolyte
Greece
12 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2013 : 17:09:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Many mundane and magical things alike warped into unrecognizable state when the Spellplauge hit Toril. Such could be the fate of the imprisoned liches. Or if they were lucky, the plague only destroyed or rendered the prison magically malleable and allowed them to escape relatively unscathed.
I vaguely recall there's another thread that discusses this very topic.
Well, I guess my search-fu failed me once more cause I couldn't find anything relevant enough. If a good scribe could point me to another scroll for this I would really appreciate it.
But for argument's sake, lets say that they did actually escape. What would they do in this time and age? Do you see the Shadovar (considering the proximity to Neverwinter) perhaps trying to get them under their fold? Or maybe feel threatened by them and want to destroy them?
What about the other great survivors like Aumvor and Larloch? What would they think about them? |
"Until the WoC stopped supporting the Forgotten Realms and replaced it with their own setting, confusedly sharing the same name"
-- Icelander |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2013 : 17:40:05
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Larloch and Aumvor would probably just leave them be. As for the Shadovar, they believe all surviving Netherese are worthy, potential allies, so they'd offer them something (help run Sembia, get a place of their own somewhere in the reanimated Anauroch, or avenge their imprisonment) in exchange for whatever magical lore they can share or aid in subjugating the entire Sword Coast. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11700 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 02:16:28
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Hmmmm, my copy of the GHotR states that differently (not indicating that she traps liches in the tower, but possibly she defeats them or makes them retreat and then blocks up the tower.... maybe to prevent them getting at something they left behind).
806 DR Year of the Warrior’s Rest
The realm of Stornanter is established in the North with Laeral the Witch-
Queen as its ruler and Port Llast as its capital. Realizing the importance and
strategic location of ruined Illusk, Laeral sees to the rebuilding and resettling
of this city. After personally exploring the Host Tower [611, 1311] and
encountering the lich survivors of the Grand Cabal, Laeral [762, 841] erects
magical barriers around the structure to bar entry. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Imrathil
Acolyte
Greece
12 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 11:05:02
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LEoF (page 144) says that Laeral "imprisoned many of the Netherese liches and demiliches of the Grand Cabal in the tower's shadow demiplane".
Furthermore, it is implied that the Arcane Brotherhood was responsible in maintaining the remaining wards imprisoning the Old Ones.
So having the tower destroyed, and the Brotherhood no longer maintaining the wards I think it is pretty safe to argue that the Old Ones would be getting really close to their freedom.
The implications of that seem really intriguing  |
"Until the WoC stopped supporting the Forgotten Realms and replaced it with their own setting, confusedly sharing the same name"
-- Icelander |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11700 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 12:14:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Imrathil
LEoF (page 144) says that Laeral "imprisoned many of the Netherese liches and demiliches of the Grand Cabal in the tower's shadow demiplane".
Furthermore, it is implied that the Arcane Brotherhood was responsible in maintaining the remaining wards imprisoning the Old Ones.
So having the tower destroyed, and the Brotherhood no longer maintaining the wards I think it is pretty safe to argue that the Old Ones would be getting really close to their freedom.
The implications of that seem really intriguing
Ah, ok, the original quote said GHotR, so that's where I looked.
As to what happened to them, my take on a demi-plane tied to a place and that place being destroyed isn't necessarily release. It could be that now they're essentially perma-trapped unless/until they can figure a way to tie their demi-plane to somewhere else from the inside. Eventually, I can see the demi-plane beginning to lose its power and slowly shrinking away to nothing destroying everything within it.... or maybe a larger place like Ravenloft absorbs it but mucks with the minds of those it releases.... maybe its just drawn to the negative energy plane where it and everything within it is reduced to simple negative energy (even though they're undead inside the demiplane). That all being said, it could be that they're released into the realms again too. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 12:47:27
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Hmm. Maybe Larloch wasn't satisfied with his 60-plus lich-servitors and added the Grand Cabal in their ranks. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Imrathil
Acolyte
Greece
12 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 15:52:48
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Imrathil
LEoF (page 144) says that Laeral "imprisoned many of the Netherese liches and demiliches of the Grand Cabal in the tower's shadow demiplane".
Furthermore, it is implied that the Arcane Brotherhood was responsible in maintaining the remaining wards imprisoning the Old Ones.
So having the tower destroyed, and the Brotherhood no longer maintaining the wards I think it is pretty safe to argue that the Old Ones would be getting really close to their freedom.
The implications of that seem really intriguing
Ah, ok, the original quote said GHotR, so that's where I looked.
As to what happened to them, my take on a demi-plane tied to a place and that place being destroyed isn't necessarily release. It could be that now they're essentially perma-trapped unless/until they can figure a way to tie their demi-plane to somewhere else from the inside. Eventually, I can see the demi-plane beginning to lose its power and slowly shrinking away to nothing destroying everything within it.... or maybe a larger place like Ravenloft absorbs it but mucks with the minds of those it releases.... maybe its just drawn to the negative energy plane where it and everything within it is reduced to simple negative energy (even though they're undead inside the demiplane). That all being said, it could be that they're released into the realms again too.
Yeah sleyvas that was my fault, I was thinking LEoF but quoting GHotR. I guess I got too excited with the implications 
What you are suggesting makes sense. Especially if you follow the argument that the "shadow demiplane" was a shadow of the tower itself, hence any destruction to the actual tower would mean the same thing for it's shadow double. But perhaps there was a moment in the original tower's destruction that left an opening for the Grand Cabal to escape (perhaps to the Plane of Shadow?).
Another thing that I find interesting is the part where the Arcane Brotherhood needed to renew or/and maintain the wards of their imprisonment. I don't know how long the assault on Luskan and the tower itself by Captain Deudermont lasted (haven't read the Pirate King) but the Brotherhood couldn't possibly spare the time/resources to maintain the wards while at the same time fight for their very existence.
Finally, in the case that the wards were just weakened by the Host Tower's destruction, I think they would get completely destroyed with the coming of the Spellplague. |
"Until the WoC stopped supporting the Forgotten Realms and replaced it with their own setting, confusedly sharing the same name"
-- Icelander |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 15:59:34
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When a thing in the material plane is destroyed, its shadow, or at the very least, some lingering echoes of its shadow are stuck in the Plane of Shadow. So it's possible that the prison held despite the destruction of the Host Tower. But given that both the Weave and the Shadow Weave collapsed during the Spellplague, the “shadowy” prison most likely collapsed as well. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Imrathil
Acolyte
Greece
12 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 16:50:54
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So what about their level of power? Do we have any info on them?
Were they Sorcerer-kings as in having their own enclave? (which i doubt)
I'm wondering how would they be treated by their fellow Netherese today?
Fear and respect maybe? I would say that their imprisonment would be considered a fact of weakness. So, Larloch imprisoning them once more, and this time in his magical clutches, as Dennis suggested, might make sense. |
"Until the WoC stopped supporting the Forgotten Realms and replaced it with their own setting, confusedly sharing the same name"
-- Icelander |
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silverwolfer
Senior Scribe
789 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 22:07:26
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| Well Id say in a d&d concept at least 15 and above, as a demi lich is a cr 20ish challenge, reaching near epics, which epics in forgotten realms = Random book story being published |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2013 : 23:29:37
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In AD&D liches had to be at least 18th level magic-users.
I would treat them as if they were at least that level and beyond. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2013 : 05:42:56
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you do know that the netherese liches and what not could have pulled the tower into the shadow plane too, |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2013 : 05:50:47
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quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon
you do know that the netherese liches and what not could have pulled the tower into the shadow plane too,
We don't know the exact nature of Laeral's spells that made up the prison and what happened to them after the Spellplague, so really, almost anything is possible. Our task is to present, at the very least, a sensible and feasible explanation. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2013 : 05:58:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
In AD&D liches had to be at least 18th level magic-users.
I would treat them as if they were at least that level and beyond.
Those who willingly embrace lichdom, perhaps. But those who were forced, maybe not so. I'm not sure if Frodyne, Szass Tam's apprentice, was statted, but she didn't appear that powerful to me; and she was turned to a lich as punishment for her “betrayal.” |
Every beginning has an end. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2013 : 01:15:37
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As the guy who created the Grand Cabal, I thought I should chime in here.
The remaining Grand Cabal members now within their safehold now number about 5 "individuals", 3 of which are true liches, one of which has a quasi-demi-lichdom state and one who has become akin to and the equivalent of a vestige. Names of known members of the Grand Cabal include Eleggar "the Bound", Kellin Daerthovil and Yarragas of Mornil. The official Grand Cabal always numbered eight members.
Their demiplane "prison" is not actually part of the Plane of Shadow - that plane acts only as a conduit to it. Laeral and other Chosen consider it likely that it is part of the Ethereal Plane and that this plane holds an as yet undiscovered "back door" to their bolthole. The demiplane was created as a huge, many-roomed safehold, armory and weapon/magic item depository for the Grand Cabal, but unknown to them, it's chief creator Fynran, built in several "controls" regarding access and the nature of the safehold's occupancy. These secrets and how to control them were known to an ambitious but junior member of the Grand Cabal named Carantorl and when the Northmen assaults lead by the legendary Uthgar caused panic among the Cabal, he encouraged its five senior members to enter the safehold (known to them simply as "the Larnas" - Loross for "chamber") and gather magic items, constructs etc for battle while he "held off" the barbarians with his other 2 junior comrades.
In doing so, he triggered the special wards within the Larnas that caused individuals who entered certain chambers to enter temporal stasis, suffer spell effects and for the safehold itself to go into "lockdown" (unable to be accessed or departed from without saying a certain word whilst touching a certain spot (one inside and one outside the "standard" entry/exit point located then as now in the Hosttower of the Arcane). This effectively trapped the five senior members of the Cabal in the Larnas. Carantorl intended to become ruler of Illusk, seeking to eliminate his rivals (his other two junior members also fell to the hungry blades of the Northmen) by isolating and controlling his more powerful comrades and then parleying terms/power as required. His dreams died at the end of Uthgar's spearpoint.
The five Grand Cabal members trapped in the Larnas fared just as badly. Spelltraps activated by Carantorl slew three of them almost immediately and the remaining 2 members were trapped in stasis. The three who were slain all rose as liches shortly thereafter - they had already made the necessary preparations and their phylacteries were located in the Larnas. Their attempts to exit the Larnas met with failure and as they strove to find a way out, all fell afoul of temporal stasis spell effects. The remaining two who had been trapped originally had their stasis effects cease after some 5 years of realtime. They were unable to exit the Larnas and quickly realised that the magic put in place to to create food/drink had been disabled. There was food and drink in the Larnas but enough for months if properly rationed, not a lifetime. Spells discovered the fates of the three lich members now in stasis (the two quickly realised that such traps were prevalent in the Larnas and frighteningly, would reset and move randomly throughout the complex) and so they embarked upon the feverish process of attaining lichdom themselves before their food ran out. In this they succeeded, but one of their number's transformation went awry and he became a variant demi-lich and in the process very, very insane.
As the years went on, the members of the Cabal would rouse from time to time from stasis and work toward freeing themselves using their Art. Conflicts have arisen a thousand times over the centuries but their lich states mean that they keep coming back even when one slays the other. One of their number tried to channel the negative energy that perpetuated his lichdom into a spell to sever the wards keeping the Larnas together (hoping that it would eject them into the planes or at the very least end their existence once and for all). He failed utterly and the magical backlash transferred his sentience into his phylactery where he resides still, able to converse and communicate on rare occasions and with the correct spells/contact.
When Laeral first explored the Hosstower of the Arcane, she sensed the powerful magic embodied by the Larnas and careful magical investigation deduced its existence and something of its controls and safeguards. She knew that the Larnas contained something or someone(s) and correctly surmised that it was the lost Grand Cabal. Using rare magic she became the first person to access the Larnas in centuries. She was fortunate too that only a single member was active at the time. Her spellbattle with Yarragas was brutal and swift but she was able to defeat him and exit the safehold after some careful and discreet exploration. Knowing the evil trapped in the Larnas, and the ramifications if the Grand Cabal survivors were ever to escape, she created a series of wards barring entry to the Hosstower itself.
Since the time of Stornanter and the rise of Illusk and in turn Luskan the Hosstower has always been shunned by the inhabitants of the city. The secrets of the Larnas and the trapped Grand Cabal members however is no longer a secret known only to the Chosen of Mystra. The Arcane Brotherhood became aware of the "Old Ones" residing in the Larnas and set up means of communicating with them (which was a haphazard situation at best but provided significant lore on the Art from the trapped liches who gave it up desperately in the hope of being released).
The Spellplague would in my view have weakened the wards that have prevented access to the Larnas. It may well be that they have been stripped away entirely but the trapped Grand Cabal members are in stasis or simply unaware that they can now actively seek to escape their safehold prison (even liches despair after centuries). The options, as they say, are limitless.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 25 Mar 2013 03:06:30 |
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Imrathil
Acolyte
Greece
12 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2013 : 12:02:03
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Wow thanks all this was more info and thoughts that I could ever have dreamed of!
And George, thanks a lot for all this valuable Realmslore. If I may ask for a little bit more though, can you please tell me what are the Cabal's level of power? I don't mean their wizard levels, etc, I just wanna know more about their status (social/political) in Netheril's magocracy power structure. What I'm looking for here, is the reaction and attitude of the rest of the surviving Sorcerer-kings (Aumvor, Larloch, Telamont, etc) towards them. This would help a lot for my campaign!! |
"Until the WoC stopped supporting the Forgotten Realms and replaced it with their own setting, confusedly sharing the same name"
-- Icelander |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2013 : 13:01:14
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The survivors of the Cabal are high in level - all able to cast level 9 spells - but were not high level in terms of their status in the "power structure" you mention for one simple fact: they never mastered the crafting of mythallar and were rulers of holdings in Low Netheril. Hence they were beneath the notice of the worthies you mention. They might know and recall their names, but that would be about it.
In terms of modern-day interactions, Larloch would seek to add them to the ranks of his servitor liches, Aumvor would seek to steal or take by force any unique or rare Art they possessed and Telamont would ignore them unless they came looking for him or tried to contact him, whereupon he would gauge their usefulness for his own aims and objectives.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11700 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2013 : 17:25:51
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| I'm interested in the one that you say "has become akin to and the equivalent of a vestige". I'd be interested in both his story, his goals, and his mechanics. Is he the one who is named Eleggar "the bound"? Is he the one who "tried to channel the negative energy that perpetuated his lichdom into a spell to sever the wards keeping the Larnas together (hoping that it would eject them into the planes or at the very least end their existence once and for all). He failed utterly and the magical backlash transferred his sentience into his phylactery where he resides still, able to converse and communicate on rare occasions and with the correct spells/contact."? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 10:42:50
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Awesome lore - many many thanks George
Kind regards
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 14:11:53
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Quite interesting lore, George. Thanks. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Imrathil
Acolyte
Greece
12 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 17:22:34
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| Indeed. Thanks a lot George, that was much appreciated |
"Until the WoC stopped supporting the Forgotten Realms and replaced it with their own setting, confusedly sharing the same name"
-- Icelander |
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The Grand Cabal
