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Kyrel
Learned Scribe
151 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Mar 2013 : 17:39:02
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Guys. I could use the assistance of the collective minds of Candlekeep rgd. a "What if" scenario. I'm resonably well wandered in Realms lore, but I'm falling a bit short when it comes to a lot of the details of regional politics, historical events, and when the various kingdoms/regions have been founded and come into power. And that makes it a bit challenging for me to come up with a proper evaluation of the below scenario.
The question is "simply": How would the Forgotten Realms look anno 1371, if Karsus had never cast his great spell, succeeded in creating it, or picked another God than Mystryl as the target? Basically, what if Netheril didn't fall as a result of Karsus' folly?
The obvious changes would probably be that:
1) Magic would still work in the way it did during the time of Netheril, and level 10+ spells would still be available to mortals.
2) Mystra's Chosen wouldn't exist (at least not likely as we know them).
3) The pantheon might be a bit different.
4) Netheril might well still exist as an Empire, meaning that we would likely still have a sky full of floating/flying Enclaves.
But what would otherwise be likely to be different? Which other regions would be under the control of the Netherese Empire, and which of the "modern" regions in the Forgotten Realms would likely still exist?
I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.
/Kyrel
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2013 : 22:55:30
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The time range (1710 years) is too far great to extrapolate any specifics without some initial details on the exact changes to some of the thousand events that succeed Karsus' Folly. Basically anything and everything can happen once one pivotal event is altered.
It may be more useful to decide what you want for your purposes, then manipulate the events to fit your needs.
Nothing precludes Netheril falling at some later date. Or Mystryl dying at some later date. Or another Karsus-caliber arcanist from precipitating some other magical calamity at a later date. Or some other mysterious hidden empire entirely of your own creation from invading Toril.
We could play with this and say some events are pre-destined and no matter the variation, the outcome will eventually catch up (like Final Destination, or fixed points in times like in Doctor Who).
We could take this to extremes and run totally off the track in the nearly two millennia of time we're allotted:
Karsus chose Amaunator, the sun was extinguished, but the Age of Darkness began where Shar and affiliated forces ran amok. Dark alien things hidden in the sunless crevices crawled up and soon everyone falls prey to these elder things. The Drow rise to the surface, forming impressive empires to rival the Age of Flowering. Undead rule entire kingdoms, seemingly impervious or even strengthened by the lack of a major circadian light source.
Karsus chose Shar, destroying darkness forever, thus began the Age of Endless Light. Toril is a parched, sun-scorched desert planet where the almighty, ever-watching Monitors (from Maunator) rule with a golden fist. The dwarves have retreated to their cavern cities, the elves subsist beneath the shelter of their umbrashade forests (magically engineered for enhanced canopy coverage). Selunites rebel against the Shining Empire, empowered when a lunar eclipse gives them hope. Mystrans and unauthorized mages are branded as traitors to the empire for magically conjuring massive magical darkness to offer whole regions reprieve, for a price. The most powerful of these mage councils rule Free Cities, amongst them Waterdeep. Etc. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2391 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2013 : 11:13:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Kyrel
The question is "simply": How would the Forgotten Realms look anno 1371, if Karsus had never cast his great spell, succeeded in creating it, or picked another God than Mystryl as the target? Basically, what if Netheril didn't fall as a result of Karsus' folly?
Not all that much.
quote:
1) Magic would still work in the way it did during the time of Netheril, and level 10+ spells would still be available to mortals.
While this way the Weave would not suffer the hardest single-event damage...
Remember that there were other reasons for Weave overload, like the war for Myth Drannor. Plus ongoing massive drains - like mythals. And wasteful ongoing massive drain - like mythallars, which in this scenario are still up and running, and wizards still could make more.
And the Weave was already stretching thin. Phaerimm didn't raise from their deep caves and attack Netheril for teh evulz, they did it because the drain began to physically harm them. Elves felt this too, just locally and not to the degree when it would affect health.
Thus, some limitaations would be needed anyway.
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2) Mystra's Chosen wouldn't exist (at least not likely as we know them).
Here on Candlekeep were mentions of Mystril's Chosen now and then. And while we're at it, let's remember: she was Chaotic Neutral. 
quote:
3) The pantheon might be a bit different.
Maybe, but Mystril would still be bothered with the Weave enough to give up secondary portfolio parts. So e.g. Gond and Sune would be there anyway.
And in the parts of the world not interacting with Netheril much, faiths would raise and fall the same way.
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4) Netheril might well still exist as an Empire, meaning that we would likely still have a sky full of floating/flying Enclaves.
Remember why Karsus raised the stakes this high? Phaerimm were already pressing Netherese too hard, and most archwizards were too arrogant to believe until they can't tell anyone. For that matter, they were too idiotically arrogant to receive healing from priests. This couldn't end well.
quote:
But what would otherwise be likely to be different? Which other regions would be under the control of the Netherese Empire, and which of the "modern" regions in the Forgotten Realms would likely still exist?
What the Netherese Empire? It was becoming one big Lifedrain AoE already. Granted, refugees would ride enclaves... but let's remember Crown vs. Scepter war? Beholder hives? Fiends? Genies? Phaerimm weren't the only ones capable of beating separate enclaves hard enough that vultures (like Shade or some dragons) could finish them off. One by one. It would just take longer. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2013 : 12:11:33
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Agreed on the Netheril falling part. Not only is everything TB says accurate, but in canon we know it was falling into civil war due to sheer boredom right before the end. And remember it was never an "empire" as in a unified force with a central government and ruler. Each city-state was independent and did whatever the heck it wanted. It was, at best, a loose confederation, and even that was gone by the end.
All Karsus did was ensure Netheril fell in one grand gesture rather than a long, drawn-out process. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2013 : 15:04:43
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I think the Savage North would look alot different today in this type of scenario. Alot of cities could well be vassal states of Netheril. I guess it would depend on what form the Netherese government would look like at this point and time. All the arch-wizards could be insane liches who leave the enclave affairs to a council who bicker and fight back and forth and when one of them steps out of line the lich shows up and blasts them to ash and picks a replacement. I'd go with ineffective bureaucracy trying to work inside some non well defined outlines layed out by the ruling arch-wizard...keeps them from conquering most of the Moonsea and North. Just an idea off the top of my head at any rate.
I need moar coffee! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11712 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2013 : 17:42:02
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| Let's also not forget, the surrounding empires were slowly becoming aware of one another around the time of Netheril's fall. Narfell and Netheril were becoming acquainted because Larloch's enclave of Jiksidur was near Narfell observing them. Also, around this time, other mortal beings were raised to godhood (Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul and at least in my campaign, Mellifleur). Unther, Mulhorand, Jhaamdath, and Raumathar were also burgeoning human empires. These other empires could have in theory come in conflict with Netheril given more time. Hell, the Mulhorandi and Untherites may have seen the Netherese culture as "the Imaskari reborn". There's too many other variables. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 14:33:03
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I would love it too had the Old Netheril survived. For almost every problem, theres always a solution. All those that TBeholder mentioned can be remedied; just get the right authors and designers.
I'll try to address each question later, when I get more time. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 26 Mar 2013 14:39:51 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2013 : 17:35:26
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quote:
1) Magic would still work in the way it did during the time of Netheril, and level 10+ spells would still be available to mortals.
Yes, although Karsus' avatar was the first/only 12th level spell which ever existed in canon. Perhaps Karsus instead dedicated his last ages towards, say, Karsus' ascension instead, and perhaps such a spell would require 13th level or higher to function. Or perhaps he could've had the foresight to "start small" and avatarize himself in the place of a different deity, or perhaps Ao could have thumbed him down. Worse, Karsus might've chosen to invent, say, Karsus' dread ring ritual. I think that the Realms and the Weave would be blasted and twisted and warped again and again once enough arrogant Netherese archwizards began to "routinely" abuse their 12th+ level spells. Netheril was already beginning to choke on magical "pollution" which gradually but irrevocably poisons the land, water, and sky; and that's without even mentioning the phaerimm threat.
The Mystra's Chosen we know wouldn't exist simply because Mystra herself wouldn't exist as a deity. I don't think the Faerūnian pantheon would be greatly affected outside of Mystra and Azuth; the presence/absence, creation/destruction, and generally childlike scandals and manipulations of the other deities would probably still carry on in typical fashion. It would be interesting to see a tyrannical Netheril charged with by Bane, or a holistic Cormanthyr-allied "green" Netheril dedicated to druidic Jannath, and/or some kind of endless holy war between them. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 26 Mar 2013 17:37:32 |
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Help me out with a "What If" scenario...
