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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 14:32:08
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I've been reading about the heresies in certain faiths of Faerun, like the Selune/Shar heresy and I find these ideas very entertaining.
What kind of heresies can be used for Lolthite faith? Any ideas? Unorthodox practices of religion in church of Lolth?
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 20:06:51
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Heresy #1
Lolth is a very cheery individual who like rainbows and unicorns. She abhors bloodshed.
Heresy #2
Lolth is actually council of individual demi-gods and not one true deity. The chaos of her nature is because these individuals often disagree and fight amongst themselves.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 20:09:44
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| The old TSR 1993 trading card boxed set has a drow female named Malabeth Tr'rudena, a 6th level priestess that is a member of the She-Spider Cult. This was an attempt to link the clergies of Lolth and Shar in some way. I can't remember where I read it, but I also recall there being a reference that in the end it was opposed by both goddesses. Quite possible it could have changed, since that era would have been either prior to or after the Time of Troubles. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 20:24:07
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I'd also look at the drow city of Guallidurth for inspiration. Located below Calimsham, it does not follow the Way of Lolth and each faction/house worships the goddess in their own way and there's infighting among factions over who's doing it wrong etc. They all worship Lolth, just in different ways.
Eryndlyn is another city to look for inspiration. Selvetarm was viewed there as a champion or powerful demon of Lolth and not worshipped directly. After his rampage through the city some drow took to worshipping him and Lolth's cult drove them from the city where they ended up in Undermountain looking to establish their own base of power.
Personally, I've been tinkering with the Dungeon magazine Age of Worms campaign and changing the dead gods to be ressurected to Kiriansalee, Selvetarm and Vhaeraun. There could be a Lolth backed faction attempting to do this and making them 1 or even 3 different aspects of the new Spider Queen (who supposedly has 8 aspects now). Such a thing would surely rile up the old traditionalists and hardliners of the faith. I figured it'd be full of younger drow, especially the more opportunistic ones who are making inroads in recruiting driders to their cause.
Selvetarm's priests worked at recruiting driders into their faith in one of the Lady Penitent novels. Entirely possible any remaining clergy of his and some drider groups may well attempt to bring him back to life, maybe as a servant of Lolth again or not.
Anyways, just some ideas maybe you can use. |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 20:30:51
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Thanks for the ideas! Can you explain on the dead gods part a bit more, I'm a bit confused.
And while reading the new Menzoberranzan book, there is a part in House Melarn section which made some kind of sense to me. It says Melarn think of Driders as a good thing that represents the form of Lolth and not as a shameful existence like the traditional drow way. I always thought like this too. I mean drow are really actually worshipping spiders. Why would being a half spider and half drow is a bad thing? It seems a thing that a very devout person would want to be. |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 21:06:37
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During the Lady Penitent trilogy Lolth pretty much exterminated all the remaining drow deities except Ghaunadaur.
Of course if all the drow deities are alive in your campaign you could use different deities or something else. I've always been partial to Eilistraee as the Masked Lady after she absorbed Vhaeraun's power after killing him.
I'm not a fan of House Melarn in Menzoberranzan considering how much Quenthel Baenre hated the heretic Hallistra. They did mention in the Menzo book how Matron Quenthel is looking for a way or excuse to destroy the house, so hopefully it will be gone in 5E. House Do'Urden was destroyed for a male being a heretic, I just don't get how a house exists that has 2 known female heretics that were part of the family and still has the favor of Lolth and somehow manages to not be annihilated. The only excuse for this I can see is House Baenre doesn't govern Menzoberranzan as absolutely and effectively as when old Matron Yvonnel Baenre was running the show. Makes sense considering that old hag was 2,000 years old, reigned as matron mother for over a thousand years of that time and was a 25th level high priestess with some sort of "special" relationship to the Spider Queen that we never learned more about before her death.
The 3E Drow of the Underdark book makes mention that some of the younger drow are viewing driders as you stated and are beginning to slowly build up a working relationship. Definitely some possibilities there. Heck, I've always been in favor of driders forming their own small communities myself. Drow instinctively band together even if they're keeping their distance at sword point, I don't see why driders wouldn't band together in the same way. |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 21:31:43
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I dislike the House Melarn too and Quenthel is I think a far better and powerful leader than Triel. She was already a heroine for the people before she became the Matron Mother. I would have loved a book or story about her ascension though...
I know about the LP trilogy but my game is considering LP or anything after WotSQ never happened. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 08:51:49
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Lolth has eight aspects instead of being a singular entity. These eight aspects make up the whole and each represents an aspect of Lolth. Danifae is one aspect who represents beauty/seduction, Zinzerena represents assassins, etc. Heretics could focus on these saints/aspects who make up Lolth while recognizing all of them.
PS. As far as I'm concerned there is no House Melarn in Menzo. Q'Arlynd could have had offspring or there were Melarn not in Ched Nasad like how there is a House Ousstyl in Menzo and Ched Nasad. (Although with naming conventions that doesn't mean they are related ...just like Mr. Smith and Mr. Smith aren't necessarily related...) |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 14:06:24
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Lolth has eight aspects instead of being a singular entity. These eight aspects make up the whole and each represents an aspect of Lolth. Danifae is one aspect who represents beauty/seduction, Zinzerena represents assassins, etc. Heretics could focus on these saints/aspects who make up Lolth while recognizing all of them.
Hmm. Do we know anything about the other six? What about the She-Spider Cult? |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 21:36:10
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As far as I know there hasn't been anything released on the other aspects. With AO supposedly setting things right, it'd be relatively easy to have several of the dark deities return to the fold as aspects of Lolth. We've seen lots of proof that when deity kills deity they tend or can absorb their portfolio. So Lolth could give birth to a new Selvetarm, Vhaeraun, Kiriansalee etc.
I do like the idea of how Greyhawk has Lolth as the supreme deity and the minor deities have their own lesser temples and such. On the other hand, tradition is kind of fun too where they Lolthite clergy just kills all other faiths and lets the Spider Queen sort it out. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 01 Nov 2012 : 22:30:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
As far as I know there hasn't been anything released on the other aspects. With AO supposedly setting things right, it'd be relatively easy to have several of the dark deities return to the fold as aspects of Lolth. We've seen lots of proof that when deity kills deity they tend or can absorb their portfolio. So Lolth could give birth to a new Selvetarm, Vhaeraun, Kiriansalee etc.
I do like the idea of how Greyhawk has Lolth as the supreme deity and the minor deities have their own lesser temples and such. On the other hand, tradition is kind of fun too where they Lolthite clergy just kills all other faiths and lets the Spider Queen sort it out.
Wouldn't necessarily work for the others, but having Kiaransalee take over the "spirit" of one of the eight would be a good way for her to return.... being the goddess of undeath AND revenge and all that. Could maybe also be interesting if they somehow worked in Kiaransalee working with Tenebrous from the Far Realm where the vestiges are trapped in order to return (considering the whole Kiaransalee/Orcus/Tenebrous "erase you from memory" thing that's happened), but only if they were seriously going to have Kiaransalee and Orcus go at it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 03:31:36
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Below is a heretical view of Lolth that believes that the time for the drow to remain in the Underdark has come to an end. The drow need to begin moving to the surface, and the petty politics must cease as all Drow must become unified behind this singular goal. The strongest among the drow shall lead them to the surface lands, and anyone who stands opposed to this goal must be slain.
Dogma: "The time of the Descent has come to an end, and the Spider Queen calls her children forth to rise from the darkness to retake their rightful place in the surface lands. Those who stand in the way of the Ascension must be destroyed. All Drow must become unified behind this singular goal; the strong shall lead a holocaust against the rebellious and the heretical. Let none who stand in the way be spared. Never forget the other commands of Lolth. Sacrifice all who ignore the commands of Lolth and her clerics. Raise children to praise and fear Lolth. Each family must produce at least one priestess to serve her. Never question Lolth's motives or wisdom. Never aid non-drow against the drow. Never ignore Lolth's commands for the sake of a lover. Revere arachnids of all kinds, and any who kill or mistreat a spider must be sacrificed to the Spider Queen." |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 08:18:42
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| Lolth did not kill Kiaransalee, Selvetarm, Eilistraee, or Vhaeraun though.... |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 11:57:05
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| Not directly perhaps but they all perished while engaged in a sava deathmatch against her, using their followers as pawns. So she can claim their portfolios. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 14:09:10
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The thing about Lolth/Lloth, is that she allows a great deal of leeway, up to varying her name, as long as she doesn't see it as a problem, but would easily root out anything she doesn't like. So, almost everything goes, but not too far.
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
The old TSR 1993 trading card boxed set has a drow female named Malabeth Tr'rudena, a 6th level priestess that is a member of the She-Spider Cult. This was an attempt to link the clergies of Lolth and Shar in some way. I can't remember where I read it, but I also recall there being a reference that in the end it was opposed by both goddesses. Quite possible it could have changed, since that era would have been either prior to or after the Time of Troubles.
It was mentioned elsewhere. With the summary that as long as it's free faith income without (so far) any spreading problems, they both let these clowns live, but neither actually likes or supports them in any way.
quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Dogma: "The time of the Descent has come to an end, and the Spider Queen calls her children forth to rise from the darkness to retake their rightful place in the surface lands.
She could allow it as an ambition and a way to harass (and shear for faith) surface elves. Strategically, probably won't invest in a near-doomed project anything not yet involved, though.
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Not directly perhaps but they all perished while engaged in a sava deathmatch against her, using their followers as pawns. So she can claim their portfolios.
..."Too bad they never made any sequels."  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 16:08:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
Below is a heretical view of Lolth that believes that the time for the drow to remain in the Underdark has come to an end. The drow need to begin moving to the surface, and the petty politics must cease as all Drow must become unified behind this singular goal. The strongest among the drow shall lead them to the surface lands, and anyone who stands opposed to this goal must be slain.
Dogma: "The time of the Descent has come to an end, and the Spider Queen calls her children forth to rise from the darkness to retake their rightful place in the surface lands. Those who stand in the way of the Ascension must be destroyed. All Drow must become unified behind this singular goal; the strong shall lead a holocaust against the rebellious and the heretical. Let none who stand in the way be spared. Never forget the other commands of Lolth. Sacrifice all who ignore the commands of Lolth and her clerics. Raise children to praise and fear Lolth. Each family must produce at least one priestess to serve her. Never question Lolth's motives or wisdom. Never aid non-drow against the drow. Never ignore Lolth's commands for the sake of a lover. Revere arachnids of all kinds, and any who kill or mistreat a spider must be sacrificed to the Spider Queen."
This idea is awesome! I might use it for my next FK character... |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 16:23:36
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Thanks for all the ideas! I also got something in mind. It will be a more rational faith...well as much as a faith can be rational anyway and especially for the drow...
Planning to keep the superiority of race and females, sacredness of female form, respect for spiders (maybe), hate against surface elves and all that basic stuff. But getting rid off the parts which actually does more damage to drow society than good. For example chaos. Brings only destruction to drow. Think about an orderly drow city with a single purpose in mind: conquering! So that also means getting rid off some of the infighting and intrigue. But knowing that it would most likely destroy anything that resembles drows, I won't eliminate it all together. Just a bit more cooperative and less murderous, traitor, psycho drows. Or something like Eilistraee's faith but evil.
So it looks a rather moderate heresy to me. I need your input on this issue and how to go with it.
And another one, this is a lot more radical.
Lolth is in fact an ally of Corellon or an aspect of him. His dark side if you will or his puppet. He kept the drow under control by using this persona to fuel infighting and chaos in drow world to stop them doing any real damage to surface elves. This one is a longshot and probably won't be used by me but fun to speculate on it. |
Edited by - farinal on 02 Nov 2012 16:24:29 |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 18:48:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Not directly perhaps but they all perished while engaged in a sava deathmatch against her, using their followers as pawns. So she can claim their portfolios.
I don't ever see Lloth claiming Eilistraee's portfolio; too much sunlight, moonlight and surface world forest frolicking while simultaneously not having enough hatred, malice, self-aggrandizing and evil. |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 21:57:13
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quote:
Originally posted by farinal
Thanks for all the ideas! I also got something in mind. It will be a more rational faith...well as much as a faith can be rational anyway and especially for the drow...
Planning to keep the superiority of race and females, sacredness of female form, respect for spiders (maybe), hate against surface elves and all that basic stuff. But getting rid off the parts which actually does more damage to drow society than good. For example chaos. Brings only destruction to drow. Think about an orderly drow city with a single purpose in mind: conquering! So that also means getting rid off some of the infighting and intrigue. But knowing that it would most likely destroy anything that resembles drows, I won't eliminate it all together. Just a bit more cooperative and less murderous, traitor, psycho drows. Or something like Eilistraee's faith but evil.
So it looks a rather moderate heresy to me. I need your input on this issue and how to go with it.
Below is my suggestion. It's probably what you'd get if the tenets of Lolth and Bane were married together. The Church itself (referred to in the dogma as the "true faith" and "true church), would favor strongly Lawful Evil. The society as a result would begin to shift toward lawful evil, and even more theocratic than it already is... power would likely shift away from the noble houses and become more centralized in the church.
The church itself would be responsible for maintaining order within the society.
Lolth
The Spider Queen, Queen of the Demonweb Pits
Greater Deity
Symbol: Black spider with female drow head hanging from a spider web
Home Plane: Demonweb Pits
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Portfolio: Beauty, Cruelty, Darkness, Drow, Fear, Hatred, Spiders, Tyranny
Cleric Alignments: LE, NE, LN
Domains: Charm, Drow, Evil, Darkness, Hatred, Law, Tyranny
Favored Weapon: A spider (dagger)
Dogma: Bow before the magnificence of the Spider Queen, and tremble before her dark majesty! Serve no one but Lolth, and convert all other beings to the worship of the Spider Queen. Slay all clergy of other faiths, the rebellious, and those who most actively oppose Lolth's true church. Those who stand against the true faith always find themselves tangled in its many webs and devoured by the Spider Queen in the end. Submit yourself to the word and rulings of Lolth's ranking clergy; to do otherwise is to undermine the faith and invite your destruction. Always ensure that everyone is unsettled and afraid of Lolth, making them fear her even more than you do. Fear is always your strongest weapon, and only weak fools seek to rule through love or respect. Lolth always hungers for greater sacrifice from her faithful, and thus you shall give to her the weak, the impugners of the faith, males who forget their place, rebellious slaves, and any other who has ignored the commands of Lolth or her ranking clerics. Raise your children to praise and fear her, for only true power can be gained through service to the Spider Queen. Each family must give to her at least one child to serve in the clergy. Never question the motives of Lolth, nor that of her ranking clergy, to do so is a sin, as is aiding nondrow against the drow, or ignoring the commands of Lolth or her ranking clergy. Never forget to admire the feminine form, and revere arachnids of all kinds for both are the source of the worlds greatest beauty. Anyone who harms or mistreats either must be sacrificed to Lolth.
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2012 : 22:22:58
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| Thanks for the great post Aldric! I'm really liking this concept. And let's say a group started this heresy and started to gain power and influence. What would be Lolth's reaction to this new wave of faith? |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2012 : 00:58:39
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quote:
Originally posted by farinal
Thanks for the great post Aldric! I'm really liking this concept. And let's say a group started this heresy and started to gain power and influence. What would be Lolth's reaction to this new wave of faith?
Lolth could be behind the change, and thus give active support. Alternatively, a divine aspect of Lolth may have separated itself from her fully, and be struggling to spread a new version of the faith to replace the old. Another deity or being could be trying to usurp Lolth's place, and granting power in her name.
I'd have Glasya, the daughter of Asmodeus, be behind granting the divine power to Lolth's faithful. She could have a scheme to become a legitimate goddess by usurping both Bane and Lolth - starting with Lolth. To that end she's pretending to be the Spider Queen, and delivering to the clergy the previously mentioned orders.
She may have sensed your priestesses' wavering faith, and selected her to be the first of her new disciples. Of course, this is going to result in a civil war within the church of Lolth. If your side wins, then it would likely mean the destruction of Lolth as Glasya absorbs her divinity. She may even reshape the Sixth Layer of Hell to appear like a new Demonweb Pits.
Once most if not all drow bend the knee to Lolth's "new" church, are unified behind it and its goals, they'd likely turn their eyes to the conquest of other Underdark races - specifically races such as the Duergar and Kuo-toa. To a lesser extent the Beholder's and the Illithid - though those are made more difficult due to their alien minds.
Once a sufficient army is raised, I'd imagine they'd begin planning to conquer some part of the surface. The faith would then be brought into conflict with every other faith, but particularly that of Bane. Lolth could be portrayed as the new "Tyrant Queen". |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2012 : 18:10:53
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| Is it possible to gain godhood or ascend to a demigod kind of status by heresy? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2012 : 18:18:12
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If the heresy is "worship {insert deity name here} through me, and by worshiping me as the 'avatar of the god incarnate', then you will live a long and happy life, go to heaven, blah, blah, blah", then YES, it is possible.
You set yourself up as a 'god-king', and rule (ostensibly) as the right-hand of some deity. How the deity itself addresses this varies from god to god, and even situation to situation. Most do not much care - so long as they are getting their 'cut' of the worship-energy, then they will most likely just allow the mortal to ascend to demigod (exarch) status. Better to have a competent mortal on your side and building your church, then having them (and their followers) turn on you.
However, if the heresy sways too far afield from what the god is all about (its portfolios), then it may intervene.
All IMHO, of course. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Nov 2012 18:18:40 |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2012 : 20:09:52
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| Love Aldrick's idea of a Lawful Evil Lloth. Awesome! |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2012 : 22:08:01
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| AFAIK, Eilistraee's and Vhaeraun's spheres of influence belong neither to Corellon nor to Lolth. Their place in the canonical Realms seems to be empty (which was Wizards' purpose in getting rid of them). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2012 : 23:12:16
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| Meh, as far as we have seen, Corellon has just taken the followers of Eilistraee as his (the ones who chose to switch from Eilistraee to him, that is. I don't think that the they all of sudden stopped worshipping their goddess), and is doing nothing to continue her fight. Anyway, totally OT. Sorry about it. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2012 : 23:30:47
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| Well, obviously if he took her followers, this would imply that he at least holds her portfolios in trust- just as Liera did. I doubt that he would leave it open for others to grab, ocnsidering how reluctant he was to exile her, and his love for her. Just because he has not continued her fight (which it was implie was finished anyway, according to the end of LP) does not mean that he would not protect her followers. They are now under his care, after all. One has to look at the long-reaching effects and the wider view of the gods, when dealing with portfolios. He may not actively grant spells or divine aid to those didn't switch, but I see no reason why he could not still keep them for her (possible) future return. This is exactly what happened when Waukeen was absent. Hers were given back when she returned. And, if E is "hiding" in/behind/under daddy, then him holding them would make even more sense. (Especially in light of that cut lore about her loosing her divinity- SOMEONE would have to keep it for her until she gets back her godhood! And honestly, who else would/could she TRUST?!) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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farinal
Learned Scribe
Turkey
270 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2012 : 05:54:41
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| Could it be possible to direct the worship into an object, an idol and then to the leader of the heresy rather than openly saying "Worship me" I'm thinking about "By worshipping this "idol" you will be worshipping our Goddess in our new way" And then steal those "worshipping energy" and Lolth getting her part etc. |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 03:39:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Not directly perhaps but they all perished while engaged in a sava deathmatch against her, using their followers as pawns. So she can claim their portfolios.
...no. Vhaeraun basically killed himself, at least in theory. Possibly in a plot with Eilistraee. Eilistraee allowed herself to be killed so Correlon could take over her worshipers. I doubt anyone who worshiped any of those Gods suddenly started revering Lolth and Lolth certainly didn't kill them. Lolth might think it was her plot, but it seems more like Correlon played her for a fool. |
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Heresy ideas for Church of Lolth
