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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Nov 2012 : 12:38:15
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| Good point, also in the past Sembia did not have to deal with both a revived Cormanthor and a powerful Cormyr at the same time. I believe that would have been able to survive the wars they had with these realms without the assistance of the Shade. This assistance would also create loyalty in the heart of the ordinary citizen and especially the soldiers as we saw clearly happening in the Battle for Selagaunt. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2012 : 15:19:26
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Maybe they need to break down so they can be viable and defeatable villains. How could a PC possibly defeat Telamont Tanthul? Their level of power seemed silly and over the top from the get-go. I am not keen on the idea of their being mortals with character levels exceeding 30. Off with their heads!
Only if you are a low level player.
Plenty of campaigns run for years and eventually, you too can reach epic level with a good group of players. I have played 2 of those and am nearing epic level in another over the last 18 years. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2012 : 17:03:49
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Lets see....
The Wizards that live on yon coast* decided that most folks do not like the Shades, and cast an epic, high-magic "nerf 'em" ritual?
Because thats what really happened, all conjecture aside.
It doesn't matter to me at all how they handle the Shade problem, or if they even bother to do anything with them at all. They were one of the few 3e 'adds' that I disliked, but in retrospect, with 4e now behind us, they weren't really all that bad (Abolethic Sovereignty?) When you put things in perspective, the Shades are a minor hiccup in the FR IP.
IN a multi-spheric, all-encompassing fantasy setting like D&D/FR, there are an infinite number of ways to address a reduction in Shade power. You could say Billy - a newborn Overgod from another reality - stumbles into Faerūn and has an argument with Telemont, and he says, "You are a bad man! You go to the cornfield!" And then the Shade Enclave disappears, leaving only a handful of Shades (and all their operatives) outside of Anauroch. Billy gets bored and leaves (after 'cleeaning up' any other FR messes).
Yes, thats ridiculous, but it would work. So would anything else. Its all conjecture and doesn't really matter. The reasoning will be whatever they say it will be. I just hope Ed has a hand in that decision, because then I know it will at least make sense within the greater FR lore framework.
@Firestorm - according to TSR/WotC's own statements in the past, the 'sweet spot' for gaming ended around level 12, which is when most campaigns would peter-out. I am not being contentious or anything, but if 90% or more of the consumers do not need a certain 'feature' of a product-line, is it prudent to continue to push it? I personally do not care if they stay or go - I simply ignore them. I would prefer they not be in the lime-light so much, just to make that easier for me, but if they don't, its no big deal. Canon only effects the fiction, NOT my games.
*I found a reference to "Wizards of the Coast" last week in a Volo's Guide, and found it quite amusing. Obviously, FR had them before D&D did.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Nov 2012 17:04:45 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2012 : 17:35:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
Good point, also in the past Sembia did not have to deal with both a revived Cormanthor and a powerful Cormyr at the same time. I believe that would have been able to survive the wars they had with these realms without the assistance of the Shade. This assistance would also create loyalty in the heart of the ordinary citizen and especially the soldiers as we saw clearly happening in the Battle for Selagaunt.
Agreed. Besides, for Sembians, coin comes first before patriotism or any sentimentality to their country. As long as Shade is handling the economy well, then... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 03:35:43
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The point I was striving for is that the Sembia/Shade relations is one of the changes that doesn't get washed away since neither location is part of Abeir. If 5e Realms is going to revert everything back to its early 3e state or late 2e state, why did the design team bother keeping the 4e stuff at all? Flushing Abeir IMO is a good idea, but the other leftover 4e changes need some thought prior to just reverting them back to an older state. This includes areas like:
-Sembia
-Thay
-Calimshan
-Neverwinter
-The Silver Marshes and the Kingdom of Many Arrows
-Myth Drannor
All of these locations are dramatically different from their early expressions and I don't necessarily think that restoring them to a pre-4e state without considering evolving their current state is the best way forward. Well more truthfully, I would be perfectly happy with a return to late 2E or early 3e, but that isn't the direction that was chosen. In that light, I think the changes that have some relatively organic in setting explanations should not be immediately thrown out. Rather there should be an attempt to evolve the current situation, for instance why would Sembia revolt against Shade or why would Shade stop directly ruling Sembia? |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 03:59:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
The point I was striving for is that the Sembia/Shade relations is one of the changes that doesn't get washed away since neither location is part of Abeir. If 5e Realms is going to revert everything back to its early 3e state or late 2e state, why did the design team bother keeping the 4e stuff at all? Flushing Abeir IMO is a good idea, but the other leftover 4e changes need some thought prior to just reverting them back to an older state. This includes areas like:
-Sembia
-Thay
-Calimshan
-Neverwinter
-The Silver Marshes and the Kingdom of Many Arrows
-Myth Drannor
All of these locations are dramatically different from their early expressions and I don't necessarily think that restoring them to a pre-4e state without considering evolving their current state is the best way forward. Well more truthfully, I would be perfectly happy with a return to late 2E or early 3e, but that isn't the direction that was chosen. In that light, I think the changes that have some relatively organic in setting explanations should not be immediately thrown out. Rather there should be an attempt to evolve the current situation, for instance why would Sembia revolt against Shade or why would Shade stop directly ruling Sembia?
Myth Drannor was not a 4E change. Myth Drannor was reclaimed in 3E. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 11:40:04
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| Myth Drannor was reclaimed at the end of 3e knowing that Evermeet was going to explode and elf characters would need a homeland. Sembia and Thay both technically also were changed in the bridge series between 3e and 4e. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 17:12:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
Myth Drannor was reclaimed at the end of 3e knowing that Evermeet was going to explode and elf characters would need a homeland. Sembia and Thay both technically also were changed in the bridge series between 3e and 4e.
Myth Drannor was reclaimed well before the end of 3E. I would challenge any assertation that it was done with foreknowledge of 4E, and ask for proof of this. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2012 : 23:20:14
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| Having checked the release date on the novels, it was earlier than I remembered. Myth Drannor still didn't receive enough coverage post the trilogy until 4e to use as anything other than a ruin. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2012 : 00:45:48
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When was the epilogue set?
I didn't read the series, but if I recall there was a lot of discussion about it, and it was around 1385 DR, wasn't it? If the epilogue made it appear to be a fully functional settlement, then that would mean it was so before the Spellplague occurred. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Nov 2012 00:46:13 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2012 : 01:58:59
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It would be interesting, I suppose, if the escaped phaerimm, those who saw the princes and their lackeys create the Shadowshell around Evareska, managed to learn to use shadow magic, burrow themselves again in Anauroch, hide from Telamont's prying eyes, and cast a shadow version of their lifedrain... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2012 : 02:12:18
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| We will probably know more as the Elminster Series progresses. We know now that Mystra and Azuth knew the spellplague was coming, and allowed Larloch to do what he was doing with the blueflame items to cheat the spellplague because the weave had become so unstable and had to be "renewed or replaced" |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2012 : 02:14:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It would be interesting, I suppose, if the escaped phaerimm, those who saw the princes and their lackeys create the Shadowshell around Evareska, managed to learn to use shadow magic, burrow themselves again in Anauroch, hide from Telamont's prying eyes, and cast a shadow version of their lifedrain...
heh. Good thing Galereon saw and killed them so they could not leave with what they learned. But we have no idea if phaerimm can even use shadow magic. They are creatures of the weave, who rely on the weave magic to live.
Come to think of it, whatever happened to them during the spellplague? |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2012 : 02:50:11
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| I thought it was revealed that some of the weave remains heavily damaged but intact, I would imagine any remaining phaerimm live in areas with relatively more intact sections of weave. Although, the spell plague probably did reduce their numbers even further. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2012 : 08:42:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
It would be interesting, I suppose, if the escaped phaerimm, those who saw the princes and their lackeys create the Shadowshell around Evareska, managed to learn to use shadow magic, burrow themselves again in Anauroch, hide from Telamont's prying eyes, and cast a shadow version of their lifedrain...
heh. Good thing Galereon saw and killed them so they could not leave with what they learned. But we have no idea if phaerimm can even use shadow magic. They are creatures of the weave, who rely on the weave magic to live.
It's not as though they were born from the Weave. They are a magical race, they feed and thrive in magic, and the Weave just happens to be the most accessible source of it. Remember that Telamont and Aeron used to be Weave-casters, too. Yet look at them now...
quote:
Come to think of it, whatever happened to them during the spellplague?
They didn't group and stay in one place, and the Spellplague didn't nuke all places at once, so it's very likely some of them survived. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 00:45:35
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quote:
Wooly Rube
They are so infused with shadowstuff that their prolonged absence from the Shadow plane is causing their bodies to break down?
Always in motion are the planes. It might be that the Demiplane of Shadow Shadowfell no longer overlaps or coordinates with the Prime, ie: it has slipped a little out of "phase" or "alignment" and thus creatures of living shadow no longer enjoy the advantages they could before. The Shadowfell has always maintained some connection to the Prime, but it was somewhat tenuous in AD&D1E and really only gained peak potency between late AD&D2E and mid-D&D3E ... now, a couple of editions later, it might be time for the bridge between planes to begin drifting apart. A shade might now have to spend real energy, effort, resources, and time to reach "deeper" into the blackest pits of shadow, where once he needed to merely brush just under the surface of twilight.
It must've taken immense power to move Shade across the planes, so it kinda makes sense that (if planar orbits and conditions are constantly moving) old Telamont would choose to move Shade during a period of maximum potency - if for no other reason than to simply assure that he and the Shadovar would arrive on Faerūn with maximum energy at their disposal.
An alternate possibility: the Shadovar themselves are perfectly fine, but it is in fact their main mythallar (made of shadowstuff) which is becoming depleted over time. Their second mythallar at Sakkors would probably not be affected by a growing "distance" to the Shadowfell, but their shadow-fueled magical controls over it might be. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 07 Nov 2012 00:51:46 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 01:22:16
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I would simply prefer that Shadow Magic vanish...I used it for my own Shade character Dalor Darden with the coming of 3e; but only because I thought that was the direction the rules were going...essentially that to be a Shade you would use Shadow Magic.
I've rethought that stance though...all through 1e and 2e Shades used normal ol' magic...so it is my hope that all magic will be much more simple and there won't be different KINDS of magic so much as different SOURCES of the same sort of magic.
Electricity is electricity (for the most part...I'm talking what is used in a home here in the U.S.)...it is how you TAP that electricity that varies from nation to nation... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 02:19:03
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| If Mystra/weave is returning as the "default" source of magic, I think there should be other options such as the shadow weave, the pact style magic of warlocks and 4e raw/generic magic etc. The design team might as well provide other sources of magic for those that do not enjoy the Mystra/weave concept. Otherwise, if the design team sticks with the generic magic as default might as well just make everything generic. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 05:23:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
An alternate possibility: the Shadovar themselves are perfectly fine, but it is in fact their main mythallar (made of shadowstuff) which is becoming depleted over time. Their second mythallar at Sakkors would probably not be affected by a growing "distance" to the Shadowfell, but their shadow-fueled magical controls over it might be.
Plausible. Though Elminster noted that 'tis the city's mages who are weakened, and not the mythallar or the city itself.
On the other hand, it's also possible that the princes are taking turns to recharge the mythallar with shadow magic using their own power, thereby making themselves weak over time. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 21:13:25
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Ah, well, of course, Elminster has <ahem> never been wrong before.
The Shadovar mages are weakening? Is this weakness measured in terms of the magical artifacts and spells at their command, or of their ability to practice magic, or of their basic nature as unliving shades?
If they are weakening as shades ... the most obvious possibility (already discussed) is that they've been away from the shadow plane for too long. Transforming into a shade - like any other form of cheating death - probably has drawbacks. Liches imprison their mind-souls within magical containers but witness their flesh decay into dust over the centuries. Vampires enjoy something like eternal youth but their humanity is subverted underneath an infectious and bestial hunger. Shades replace a part of their soul with the essence of shadow, they irrevocably lose a portion of their spiritual and physical substance within the impenetrable blackness ... perhaps they expect to suffer the fate of continued fading until they are ultimately no more than dark outlines of what they once were ... and perhaps this process is accelerated, they feed on their own shadowstuff and become shades of shades whenever they are away from the true shadowstuff which replenishes them.
Their fate in the Realms seems directly tied with the fates of Shar and Mask - and Lathander/Amaunator. When Mask weakens, when Shar's darkness grows too deep, when Morningboy's blinding radiance becomes too bright, the shadows grow thinner and lose substance ... and so too might the shades. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Conjectures On Their Weakened State
