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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 04:20:08
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I bought the 4e sourcebook The Plane Above: Secrets of the Astral Sea, and I have to admit I was baffled by their description of Arvandor. Since coming to this site, I have realized just how little I know about the Realms *sad face* but one of my favorite things about the Realms is the elves, so I am hungry for any lore on them. In The Plane Above it described the Lattice of Heaven, and I think this big godswar that changed the appearance of the Astral Sea. Because of this event, the afterlife in places such as Arvandor “isn’t forever”, and some souls are exalted and some are known as outsiders, but both can die, and are in fact put in danger. Corellon and Sehanine became universal deities as opposed to just fey, and their roles are different. They want the souls in their realm to experience danger and go on these Great Hunts, because they believe love is more powerful if there is the possibility you can lose it. I mean, yes, it is, but this is the –afterlife. I died once, I don’t want to do it again and not exist anymore! Some exalted can be resurrected, but only a certain number of times. Sheverash and Fenmarel also made their home here, which I found amusing because formally, at least to my knowledge, those two deities were Realms exclusive. So…apparently you can die in the afterlife in Arvandor according to this sourcebook.
This went against all my former knowledge of Arvandor. I have not read all the FR books out there (I know, sad right?), but the ones I have read that deals with elves such as Evermeet, The Last Mythal, Lady Penitent (particularly the end), etc, Arvandor sounds like a great place where the afterlife is eternal. You don’t have to worry about soul-eaters nabbing you (that’s the Abyss), and Corellon and Sehanine are elven deities, though I’m sure it is possible for other races to worship them. FRCG 3e and even 4e support this idea of the afterlife, not the one mentioned in The Plane Above. Granted, the CG only briefly described the afterlife, and most souls start out in the Fogue Plane and then are selected by respective gods. I did read that sometimes fiends will come up and try and trick them, but once they are claimed by their god, they go to his/her realm.
This was a core D&D book, not FR, but I was wondering why it was so vastly different. Races of the Wild, also listed Corellon as an elven deity, not a universal one, and I’m pretty sure it doesn’t say anything about the fact you could die again in Arvandor. Personally, I much prefer the one described in the novels than in PA.
Did anyone else notice this? Thoughts, enlightenments?
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 10:35:22
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| 4e is the issue here. They drasticly changed the cosmology in order to support their "Points of Light" System which imo is alien to D&D and every lore written on the cosmology. I won´t go on a rant about it but the mess they created with the cosmology is one of the reasons for me that 4e should rather go die sooner than later and that 5e brings back the old theme. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 19:13:08
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I happen to have written the Arvandor description in Plane Above, and I can attest that while it is *influenced* and *flavored* by my love of the Realms (hence why the Seldarine show up there), it is definitely not intended to be strictly the same as the Arvandor of the Realms. The 4e planes cosmology doesn't quite fit with the Realms (neither did 3e's cosmology for that matter). I would advise you not read too much into it.
I also don't think that just because you don't like the cosmology of a certain edition means it should "go die sooner than later." Some people like playing in that world, and some people blissfully ignore the whole "afterlife is temporary" thing and just roll with the cosmology as it's always been.
The cosmology evolves and changes over the course of the editions, but there are more similarities between the editions than differences. The differences are more a question of perspective than actual mechanical changes in how the universe functions.
I don't know, but I suspect that 5e will have a cosmology that resembles more what older fans are accustomed to.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 28 Sep 2012 19:14:37 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 19:37:43
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Corellon and Sehanine becoming universal deities is more in line with my thinking, even if I don't follow the 4e lore. I think that most powers have various aliases they operate under - some multispheric powers may have hundreds.
I look at it this way - deities are ascended mortals (and I use that term loosely, because I think the first 'mortals' were immortal, but could still die by violence, accident, or illness), unlike the Primordials which were created whole-cloth, either by something greater then themselves or spontaneously as the need arose (they are the sentience of the concepts they embody). The power-level is the same - it is just that Primordials lack what mortals like to call 'a soul' (the moral fiber of a being).
This means that once a mortal attains divinity - through some type of adoration (which turns to outright worship over time) - they become pure energy; any physical form people interact with is merely them extending a portion of their energy to manifest in a physical manner (its a temporary avatar). At DvR 0 they are on the cusp of this energy-form (their physical body is the entirety of their existence, and actually houses their sentience). Beyond that (DvR 1-20), they can create a number of avatars = to their DvR (thats 3e RAW), but their sentience exists outside of the Prime (and I feel that the sentience itself is the god's domain - that is their true 'body', or rather, you are in the mind of the god itself).
Anyhow, my point is that gods (deities and primordials) do not have physical forms unless they wish to, which means the subject of 'race' becomes irrelevant. Most deities are worshiped by specific races at first, but as time goes on it makes perfect sense for them to broaden their faith-base and extend it to other races. Only a fairly young god - one thats less then a thousand years old or so - would deny followers based on race. truly ancient deities - like most of the Seldarine - would obviously be worshiped in hundreds of Prime Spheres, and be known by other names by other races.
Thus, 'Corellon' is an elven/fey deity, worshiped almost exclusively by creatures of fey heritage, and this is the Corellon we know in FR (and Greyhawk). The 'core Corellon' is closer to the truth - it is an archtype that can be worshiped by anyone. This is what the original Corellon - the one that is recognized in the Realms - has evolved into. The local cosmology is really just a mortal-conceptualized hypothesis that acts as a filter for those viewing the outer planes from a particular sphere - your mind will only receive the information it wants and expects.
So while on the surface it may appear like the lore is contradictory, the truth is... no-one knows the truth.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Sep 2012 19:39:29 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2392 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 20:07:45
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I bought the 4e sourcebook The Plane Above: Secrets of the Astral Sea, and I have to admit I was baffled by their description of Arvandor.
You're trying to make sense of 4e planes? You're not first.
But it's easier to just shrug and admit a lot of things 4e simply don't make sense. As compared to Planescape. Or... you know... at all. Of course, you can try and fan**** some sense back into this too, but why even bother to polish the turd?
Isn't it much easier to run with things that make sense on their own and then politely ignore any "What were they smokin' when they came up with that?" -grade stuff whatsoever, as long as no one tries to throw it at you?
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Because of this event, the afterlife in places such as Arvandor “isn’t forever”, and some souls are exalted and some are known as outsiders, but both can die, and are in fact put in danger. [...] This went against all my former knowledge of Arvandor. I have not read all the FR books out there (I know, sad right?), but the ones I have read that deals with elves such as Evermeet, The Last Mythal, Lady Penitent (particularly the end), etc, Arvandor sounds like a great place where the afterlife is eternal. You don’t have to worry about soul-eaters nabbing you (that’s the Abyss), and
Well, winding up even on a good-ish plane temporarily or permanently wasn't a silver bullet or fluffy-cloud-heaven-of-mindless-singing-forever in PS either. But? PS have it all make sense, in its way.
Also, remember the inevitable difference between DM lore and in-universe lore, and inevitable difference between the latter according to e.g. Prime theologists vs. habitual planewalkers.
Realmslore-wise, Lost Gods series was faithful to PS lore. Conversely, Lady Penitent came from Lisa Smedman, who never seemed to grasp the concept of "shared universe" enough to give a moldy crumb about any existing lore at all. To the point of smell-conducting walls of force (Extinction).
I hope this helps to sort out your confusion. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 26 Oct 2012 02:54:54 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 21:43:56
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It this way
anytng core 4e deals iwth ninteir vale and no other setting.
that does not mean anything cant be used if the DM says though...
it does mean that I ignore it and pretned it does not exist if I dont liek it. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 05:03:55
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@Erik: I’m reading too much into it because I’d like to know. Why were some things changed? I’m asking because I am honestly curious. I’ll admit I am not update on all the editions because I do not play D&D. I have some of the sourcebooks, but only a few, and I am not sure which edition they are, except for the 4e ones. I know those. My main experience with the Realms has been through the novels, so that is where most of my (limited) knowledge comes from. All the novels I have read that mention Arvandor suggest that it is a permanent place for elven souls—or souls of other races that worship the Seldarine, or even in some instances the lovers of someone who worships Corellon.
@Markustay: mmm, that makes some sense, and I wasn’t trying to imply that other races can’t worship Corellon or Sehanine, though it might have sounded that way.
@THBeholder: actually, I’m just more confused haha, but I honestly know next to nothing about Planescape ^^; I happen to like Lisa Smedman as an author. And considering I mostly read the novels, the “temporary afterlife” doesn’t sit well with me. If I’m reading a book and one of my favorite characters dies (we’ll say this character is an elf since we’re talking about Arvandor), it’s a comfort to know their soul is going to a good place permanently, and I don’t have to worry about them dying a second time. Fictional or not, it’s still important to me *shrugs*
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 17:26:14
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I didn't like finding out that you can die in the afterlife either ,after all devils and demons are fiendishly difficult to kill but its ridiculously easy to kill an angel or as you pointed out an elven soul resting in Arvandor. Hope this gets changed in 5e.
At least change it to something like if you are "killed " in the not so ever after you are reincarnated on the prime material plane you came from. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 17:41:30
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Yeah, dying in the afterlife should be left for 'specials', like Styx or an elder evil. The Outer planes becomes too much like 'just another world' if its treated the same, which takes all the wonder out of it.
I picture a Riverworld type of setup - you can die, but you always come back the next morning. That keeps everyone on-par with fiends. I figure only in the Material plane do people have actual 'substance', and beyond this world, beings are purely spiritual. Destroying a soul/spirit in its entirety should be nearly impossible. Within 24 hours the person will reform from the substance of the plane itself (because the sentience itself is still intact... think of every 'non-living' person like a lich. Your afterlife becomes your phylactory). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2392 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 17:41:51
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I happen to like Lisa Smedman as an author.
Well, she is a fairly good writer - on her own - but good understanding of the whole "continuity" thing never hurts. And, even aside of the discussed problems, may improve one's writing significantly. I'm pretty sure Lisa Smedman didn't want to play a prima donna and tell everyone how everything "should be", it's just a blind spot running into lack of guidance. Because either way, the very fact that inconsistency got past the first drafts points at either executive meddling or (more likely) a continuity editor way too busy chewing donuts to give some help to the authors who don't have enough of foresight to ask for directions.
Which doesn't make the ensuing mess any less of a cephalothoraxache.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
And considering I mostly read the novels, the “temporary afterlife” doesn’t sit well with me. If I’m reading a book and one of my favorite characters dies (we’ll say this character is an elf since we’re talking about Arvandor), it’s a comfort to know their soul is going to a good place permanently, and I don’t have to worry about them dying a second time. Fictional or not, it’s still important to me *shrugs*
Planescape approach to it basically looks like this: it varies.  On the upside, it's less pointless than "just put him on a shelf" deal. So, IIRC...
Usually (no divine favours up to immediate apotheosis, special pacts, undeath, soul-eating monsters, etc), someone who got put in the dead-book reaches the appropriate "final" destination plane>layer>realm and becomes a petitioner. Usually this means a commoner without the mortal's memory, but with skills, attitude, etc - but of course, it differs: gods of magic may want their faithful capable of some spellcasting, in Beastlands most become animals, on the Waste become larvae, etc.
Usually petitioners hang around indefinitely and improve their understanding of their deity (if any) or the plane itself until eventually merge with it - which they perceive as their goal. This still may or may not be quite the end of the road, because gods occasionally create a critter or thousand and even planes spawn creatures.
Sometimes petitioners get "promoted" (become more powerful planar creatures and/or minions of local powers).
There are always some variations - e.g. petitioners of Valhalla aren't weak commoners, most of the time fight for fun and training for the Ragnarok and when get killed, don't stay like this too long, so for them it's a fight-die-rise-feast-rinse-repeat deal.
Yup, sometimes a crazy planewalker pops in and wastes time to off a random mostly harmless petitioner, while ludicrously overpowered creatures roaming about are closing in to end a disturbance the hard way - but then, for petitioners being killed on the home plane merely equals merging in a less satisfying way, so deadly force usually isn't quite enough to scare them. Conversely, the most likely way for a petitioner to get deader than dead is to leave the place and get killed outside, though summoning doesn't count as proper "leaving". Which is one more reason why they don't go anywhere else for any reasons less than direct orders of their gods - which doesn't happen every day. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 19:12:25
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
I happen to like Lisa Smedman as an author.
Well, she is a fairly good writer - on her own - but good understanding of the whole "continuity" thing never hurts. And, even aside of the discussed problems, may improve one's writing significantly. I'm pretty sure Lisa Smedman didn't want to play a prima donna and tell everyone how everything "should be", it's just a blind spot running into lack of guidance. Because either way, the very fact that inconsistency got past the first drafts points at either executive meddling or (more likely) a continuity editor way too busy chewing donuts to give some help to the authors who don't have enough of foresight to ask for directions.
Which doesn't make the ensuing mess any less of a cephalothoraxache.
To be perfectly fair, Lady Penitent is a disappointment not because of Lisa Smedman, her writing style, or her understanding of various mechanics. It fails because someone else, someone who had absolutely zero clue what they were doing, and likely had zero love of the Realms in any way, shape, or form, dictated to Lisa Smedman exactly what had to happen in the books.
Whoever this person was (and Wizbro is wise indeed not to reveal the name) has zero understanding of elves, zero understanding of drow, zero understanding of the Seldarine, zero understanding period of anything Realms-related. Lady Penitent is saved from being a complete disaster because of Smedman's efforts - I am of the opinion she understands quite well, but simply was not allowed to write what could have been a simply outstanding series of books.
I am glad indeed that whoever this unnamed person is, is very likely no longer employed at Wizbro, and can no longer do the same type of colossal damage they seemed to have taken a perverse delight in. Lisa Smedman simply must be allowed to write without some literary zampolit breathing down her neck. Better than anyone, I think, she could do justice to what needs to happen concerning the drow pantheon.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 19:29:39
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Unfortunately, at least two of the 'culprits' are still with the company. Hopefully they won't let them anywhere near 5e FR.
When I owned my own construction company, I used to get called a lot to 'fix' other guys work. Most of the time it was just better to rip it all out and start fresh (in which case it was costing the customer more then if they just hired me in the first place). And BTW... I have TWICE been asked to fix things done by Extreme Makeover: Home Edition contractors (and have had to fly out of state to do so). There is a reason why they are able to slap those death-traps together in just a few days.
Anyhow, my point is, IMHO sometimes its just better to throw out the bad and start over. Unfortunately, the FR designers don't have that luxury. You'd never catch me building a deck on top of another (unstable) one. I guess when the only lives at stake are fictional ones, you can afford not to be so picky. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 23:26:41
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@Thauranil: so do I, though it is sounding like this doesn't pretain to the Realms, thankfully (no offense, Erik, I respect you. I am just expressing my opinion). The Arvandor of the Realms seems more permanent, so maybe I shouldn't be so concerned with it, since my main focus is FR. Still, since there -are- similarities, it was a bit surprising to read that part in The Plane Above (again, no offense Erik).
@Old Man Harpell & THBeholder: Lady Penitent was just one example I was using because of all the souls that went to Arvandor, and the implication was that it was a good place where souls could have a –permanent- afterlife, not a temporary one. But this was not the only Realms book I have read that has indicated as much.I have gotten the same impression from other novels as well. But since we are talking about Smedman, I’ll continue. I did not know if she was “forced” or not, but I have wondered about the results of that trilogy. Some drow suddenly became dark elves (which was also a term synonymous with drow) with brown skin and black hair. But since this trilogy, I have read nothing about them. So if WotC really did make her write things in a certain way, where are the results? If you know, please tell me. It’s something that’s had me curious.
@Markustay: in your opinion, should there be a retcon? I don’t want to step on any toes, because while I know a lot of people do not like 4e, and I myself am not too happy about the Spellplague and its results, I understand that the designers worked hard to piece it together, and collaborating on a shared world isn’t easy. And there were some good novels that came out of 4e. But I also know there were some major disappointments.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 23:49:31
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I would have preferred a reboot over a retcon - starting fresh with a 'new' OGB. Basically, everything would still be canon, unless overwritten at some future point. That would not automatically invalidate all the old lore... just put it in a 'holding pattern'.
However, they have made it clear the won't be "moving backward" - the setting will continue to move forward from the 4e era. I'm okay with that at this point.
I do think its a bit short-sighted to just except everything ever written as canon at this point, because why have "respect for what others have done in the past", when those same 'others' had no respect for what came before? That doesn't make you a 'better person', it makes you a doormat. If 5e doesn't pan-out, I can guarantee the next group is going to just throw everything out and start over (if there even is a next time).
But it is what it is, and I am looking forward to whatever 5e will bring. I haven't felt this enthusiastic about D&d and The Realms in several years.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Sep 2012 01:11:38 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2392 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2012 : 14:44:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Old Man Harpell
To be perfectly fair, Lady Penitent is a disappointment not because of Lisa Smedman, her writing style, or her understanding of various mechanics. It fails because someone else,
Well, that too. But still, she didn't pay much attention to the lore in other cases too, and still, there used to be a job called "continuity editor" - which, as the name implies, consists of making sure things are coherent before anyone else can see them. Even if this poor soul was bound, gagged and stuffed in the maps closet while someone sneaked weird cosmology retcons to the authors and back, there was much more than that particular mess.
The lack of interest even in very basics while knowing someone else already wrote something on this is the author's fault. Failure to fix it sits squarely on the continuity editor.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
@Old Man Harpell & THBeholder: Lady Penitent was just one example I was using because of all the souls that went to Arvandor, and the implication was that it was a good place where souls could have a –permanent- afterlife, not a temporary one.
What's "permanent"? Not just this or that god's personal realm, but layers were and will be trashed, making the shape of planes change. There are always expectations of Ragnarok, the end of Blood War, whatnot.
It's just that things either change or they don't, in the former case it's not a permanent state, in the later it amounts to "put on a shelf to collect dust". That the time scale of significant changes out on the planes should be very long for any mortal's eye, well, yeah - and PS used it, and compensated with scaling the playground itself near-infinite so that the changes happen all the time... somewhere, and thus it's not static.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
but I have wondered about the results of that trilogy. Some drow suddenly became dark elves (which was also a term synonymous with drow) with brown skin and black hair. But since this trilogy, I have read nothing about them. So if WotC really did make her write things in a certain way, where are the results?
Never was interested in this... But my guess is that retcon was easy to do, because it was pointless stirring the cauldron like in some MMO to make these superficially less boring - and not a single thought about the big picture as a whole, so one step later everything did grind to halt. Oops.
In this case, there's no way left that isn't utterly laughable or contrived into babble that would lead from the starting point to... anywhere, really. Because obvious consequences are obvious. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 13:16:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
I didn't like finding out that you can die in the afterlife either ,after all devils and demons are fiendishly difficult to kill but its ridiculously easy to kill an angel or as you pointed out an elven soul resting in Arvandor. Hope this gets changed in 5e.
At least change it to something like if you are "killed " in the not so ever after you are reincarnated on the prime material plane you came from.
Where did you get 'die in the afterlife' from? |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 14:55:25
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I picture the afterlife being akin to how things worked in the Riverworld series - you get killed, you get reincarnated (in the Outer Planes) the next morning.
Only Elder Evils and specific things (artifacts, the River Styx) should be able to completely obliterate a soul. Fiends are a tough one - supposedly they 'consume' souls, but I think its more a matter of absorbing the soul, which means it could be released (although not easily).
I try to apply RW science to my fantasy as much as possible, and since I consider a soul = energy, and "energy can neither be created nor destroyed", that means a soul that is 'consumed' by a fiend should still exist in some form (and possibly be 'filtered out'). I am sure its not a very pleasant experience, and I would think it should have some long-lasting effects on the soul. So on some level, a fiend is kinda like a 'dirty sponge'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2012 : 19:58:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I also don't think that just because you don't like the cosmology of a certain edition means it should "go die sooner than later." Some people like playing in that world, and some people blissfully ignore the whole "afterlife is temporary" thing and just roll with the cosmology as it's always been.
The cosmology evolves and changes over the course of the editions, but there are more similarities between the editions than differences. The differences are more a question of perspective than actual mechanical changes in how the universe functions.
I don't know, but I suspect that 5e will have a cosmology that resembles more what older fans are accustomed to.
Cheers
We must be reading different D&D books then because the Arvandor I've read about has been very similar up until 4th Edition. Now I understand 3e Realms went with their own personal cosmology, but that was such an easy fix for creative folks that you realize it hasn't changed much.
Each plane was named after a "Planar Realm" from pre-3E editions. According to the Planescape setting, each Outer Plane had distinct sections known as Layers, and within these Layers were practically infinite number of Realms. Because of the infinite expanse of the planes, each world can easily have their own cosmology without necessarily always intersecting with other world cosmos & mythos while at the same time unifying everything. It was a rather clever balance from the designers, I say.
Looking at the planar "Tree Cosmology" chart for 3E FR, one can easily surmise that that is the cosmology as known to the Realmspace native scholar. Planescape was smart to dictate that Material Plane natives were very ignorant of how the multiverse worked and was mapped.
It's safe to easily say that almost every time someone plane travels in the Realms they will find themselves in one of their cosmology's planes, but the deeper truth is that it is a mere "speck" compared to the vastness of the plane it resides on. This truth is almost never learned thanks to such seclusion and ignorance of anything "beyond" as well as the fact that being an infinite multiverse, one need not bother with either learning of such details or higher beings ever informing mortals of such details.
So for example, someone arrives at the House of Knowledge, to a Realmsian plane traveler, that place is its own plane and there couldn't be much beyond it. Little do they know that the House of Knowledge is but a speck in the infinite expanse of the "Outlands" (which, surprisingly, MUST exist in the Realms cosmology even if not marked because the Netherese had a huge war with "natives extraplanar beings" from the Outlands).
That's how I've always handled the inconsistency and it's worked out. The only problem was when they made the Astral Plane coterminous with the entire multiverse whereas it was always just a solid connection between the Outer Planes and Material Plane.
So, in the case of Arvandor, to the Realms folks, it is it's own outer plane. The truth; Arvandor is but a realm in the more expansive Outer Plane of Arborea, where Zeus and his Olympians are known neighbors. But, of course, the planar sage of the Realms will probably never be privy to that information in his or her lifetime. |
Edited by - Razz on 20 Oct 2012 20:02:18 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 01:33:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I picture the afterlife being akin to how things worked in the Riverworld series - you get killed, you get reincarnated (in the Outer Planes) the next morning.
Only Elder Evils and specific things (artifacts, the River Styx) should be able to completely obliterate a soul. Fiends are a tough one - supposedly they 'consume' souls, but I think its more a matter of absorbing the soul, which means it could be released (although not easily).
I try to apply RW science to my fantasy as much as possible, and since I consider a soul = energy, and "energy can neither be created nor destroyed", that means a soul that is 'consumed' by a fiend should still exist in some form (and possibly be 'filtered out'). I am sure its not a very pleasant experience, and I would think it should have some long-lasting effects on the soul. So on some level, a fiend is kinda like a 'dirty sponge'.
It's actually mentioned in a few places, I want to say the Fiendish Codex, but I could be wrong, that at the very least, souls used by devils in their infernal rituals that promote a devil from one form to another *can* be restored, and that an archdevil who needs some souls in a pinch will resort to demoting devils to lesser forms to regain the souls used in it's promotion. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 03:33:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
quote:
Originally posted by Thauranil
I didn't like finding out that you can die in the afterlife either ,after all devils and demons are fiendishly difficult to kill but its ridiculously easy to kill an angel or as you pointed out an elven soul resting in Arvandor. Hope this gets changed in 5e.
At least change it to something like if you are "killed " in the not so ever after you are reincarnated on the prime material plane you came from.
Where did you get 'die in the afterlife' from?
As I said at the beginning of this thread, it's from the book Plane Above: Secrets of the Astral Sea. Though since starting this thread, Erik, who wrote the section (I didn't know until he told me), says the Arvandor in that book vs the one in the Realms differ, and the one in Plane Above was just influenced by his love of the Realms. I hope I didn't offend you by creating this thread, Erik. I was just surprised.  But from my understanding now, the Arvandor in FR is different, and based on all Realms lore I've read that mentions Arvandor, suggests it is a permanent place for souls. I sure hope so! |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 16:50:40
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Until there's a novel that travels to Arvandor, I guess we don't really know. And even then.
If I wrote a novel that went to Arvandor, my vision of the plane would be more like the 2e version.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2012 : 17:12:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Until there's a novel that travels to Arvandor, I guess we don't really know. And even then.
If I wrote a novel that went to Arvandor, my vision of the plane would be more like the 2e version.
Cheers
Well, we caught a glimpse of it in Evermeet, but not enough to make any solid determinations. Outside of a Planescape game, I'd rather make the outer planes and the afterlife a bit more of a question. Even if the PCs end up there, there is a huge difference between spending a few hours in one of the Outer Planes to get something done and knowing exactly how the higher planes and the afterlife work. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 03:51:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Until there's a novel that travels to Arvandor, I guess we don't really know. And even then.
If I wrote a novel that went to Arvandor, my vision of the plane would be more like the 2e version.
Cheers
I see your point, but what I meant by "all things I've read" is all novels featuring elves as the main characters, whenever Arvandor is mentioned, it is implied that it is a permanent place for a souls, a "heaven", if you will. True, the elves won't really know until they get there, but since religion in the Realms, unlike RW, is more than faith-based, I tend to look at the realms of the gods the same way I do the gods themselves: there is a certain amount of knowledge involved. Of course the gods have mystery to them (too much and mortal minds would be fried). The Demihuman Deities book I have (one of the few sourcebooks I have), while I have not read through the whole thing, but what I have read, I got the impression Arvandor was a permanent place for souls.
Call me a romantic, but I take comfort in the idea of a permanent, good afterlife (this is applying to the Realms. I'm not trying to bring RW religion into this). I think people have enough problems in life. They don't need it in death. of course, if you worship an evil deity, while, that's a different story.
I don't mean to offend your work, Erik, and I apologize if I have.
Erm...where can I find the 2e info on it? Is it in Demihuman Deities? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 04:56:33
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| I don't know, CD, don't you think it'd get boring? How many fields can an elf frolic through before he's frolicked through all of them? |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 05:12:21
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Hmm, well...I think your perception, if you will, changes when you're dead, so that you don't get bored. There could be some exceptions, I suppose. I just don't like the "die again" concept. But again, I'm starting to believe--as Erik pointed out in his first post, that the 4e core Arvandor (or Points of Light. I don't know, I'm not familiar with all the kinds of D&D) is different from FR. There were some things in Plane Above that seemed rather different than FR, unless I completely missed something and the Lattice of Heaven is part of Realms lore, too.
I'm just basing my perception on all that I've read in the Realms. I do not know that much about the other D&D settings (and really, since joining this site, I'm learning how ignorant about the Realms I am). I am the type of person to base my knowledge on what I've read. Of course I try to expand my knowledge if something interests me, but if I suddenly read something that contradicts everything else I've read on the subject, I tend to go "wait, what?" A fault of mine, I guess. I'm fussy. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 05:42:11
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| Anyway, I think I'll stop posting on this thread. I'm just going to stick with what I know about the Arvandor of the Realms (and I have looked up some things, and of course the novels, so while there are gaps in my knowledge, I am not entirely ignorant on the subject. It's why I noticed the contradiction in the first place), so I'm just going to assume Core Arvandor and FR Arvandor are different (since people seem to suggest they are), and Erik said the Arvandor described in the Plane Above was influenced by his love of the Realms, but from my understanding now not the same thing. I kind of regret starting this thread. I did not know Erik wrote it and I've probably already offended him enough, which I did not mean to do (the last thing I want is to offend the authors!). I'm just going to assume my beloved Arvandor is the same it's always been. Please read this, but don't bother responding because I'm going to unsubscribe to this thread. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 16:06:08
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The idea of eternal afterlife (if I remember) comes from the Complete Book of Elves, it's a place called Arvanaith, not Arvandor. That doesn't
fit with any other planar canon. Souls eventually merge with layers, planes, and gods, and they can be destroyed. Arvanaith could be a place within Arvandor where elven souls don't merge with the Seldarine, but keep their individuality. The afterlife in D&D is not final, there are stages beyond it, possibly what the Athar call the Great Unknown, or Dustmen True Death. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 00:17:26
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Anyway, I think I'll stop posting on this thread. I'm just going to stick with what I know about the Arvandor of the Realms (and I have looked up some things, and of course the novels, so while there are gaps in my knowledge, I am not entirely ignorant on the subject. It's why I noticed the contradiction in the first place), so I'm just going to assume Core Arvandor and FR Arvandor are different (since people seem to suggest they are), and Erik said the Arvandor described in the Plane Above was influenced by his love of the Realms, but from my understanding now not the same thing. I kind of regret starting this thread. I did not know Erik wrote it and I've probably already offended him enough, which I did not mean to do (the last thing I want is to offend the authors!). I'm just going to assume my beloved Arvandor is the same it's always been. Please read this, but don't bother responding because I'm going to unsubscribe to this thread.
How dare you. (j/k!)
This is a great and very valid question, and yes, ultimately, we arrive at kind of a contradiction. The Arvandor in the Plane Above book isn't meant to be taken as "the Arvandor" of any particular setting. But I was influenced by my love of the Realms, and I think what I created was an Arvandaor that could be transposed from the Plane Above book into the Realms, with a few tweaks to fit your own personal vision. Or not, as you choose.
The cosmology has never been the focus of the Realms. The novels rarely explore it, and the game products tread very lightly in it. We have a lot of hearsay about how the multiverse works within the context of the Realms, but a lot of it is gray area. The Realms is the Realms, and you should use whatever cosmology fits your vision.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 00:35:43
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| Erik, while we're at it, did you also write the side bar "Corellon, Gruumsh, and Lolth" that appears in the section on Arvandor in The Plane Above? |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 05:49:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Anyway, I think I'll stop posting on this thread. I'm just going to stick with what I know about the Arvandor of the Realms (and I have looked up some things, and of course the novels, so while there are gaps in my knowledge, I am not entirely ignorant on the subject. It's why I noticed the contradiction in the first place), so I'm just going to assume Core Arvandor and FR Arvandor are different (since people seem to suggest they are), and Erik said the Arvandor described in the Plane Above was influenced by his love of the Realms, but from my understanding now not the same thing. I kind of regret starting this thread. I did not know Erik wrote it and I've probably already offended him enough, which I did not mean to do (the last thing I want is to offend the authors!). I'm just going to assume my beloved Arvandor is the same it's always been. Please read this, but don't bother responding because I'm going to unsubscribe to this thread.
How dare you. (j/k!)
This is a great and very valid question, and yes, ultimately, we arrive at kind of a contradiction. The Arvandor in the Plane Above book isn't meant to be taken as "the Arvandor" of any particular setting. But I was influenced by my love of the Realms, and I think what I created was an Arvandaor that could be transposed from the Plane Above book into the Realms, with a few tweaks to fit your own personal vision. Or not, as you choose.
The cosmology has never been the focus of the Realms. The novels rarely explore it, and the game products tread very lightly in it. We have a lot of hearsay about how the multiverse works within the context of the Realms, but a lot of it is gray area. The Realms is the Realms, and you should use whatever cosmology fits your vision.
Cheers
Woot, go me, broke my own post XD I forgot to unsubscribe, so I was alerted when someone posted, and naturally, I just HAD to see You knew this would happen, didn't you? I just can't stay away. I can't blame you for being influenced by the Realms. Goodness knows, I'm writing a novel, and it has elves in it (since elves aren't a Realms exclusive race), but I've been soooo tempted to put drow in it, but I can't *sad face*.
I can see your point that it's all hearsay, I'm just basing what I know from the novels I've read, and while only a few actually give you a "glimpse" of Arvandor (Evermeet and LP--particularly the ending scene in LP, when Cavatina is in Arvandor and the angels welcome her and yeah...) In the Last Mythal too, when Fflar is remembering his time in Arvandor. I just got the impression it was a "forever" sort of place. Some of the stories in Anthology of the Elves alluded to it, too, if I remember correctly. L like the idea when a loved one dies, it was a comfort to the living to know they were in Arvandor (gives me comfort when an elven character dies too, but I'm a sap and get attached to characters SO easily).
I was happy that you included Shevarash and Fenmarel, though. I'm a sucker for Shevarash, which is ironic considering I like drow and he is like, the ultimate hater of them. Members of the Seldarine like Fenmarel and Shevarash, and Erevan, don't get enough attention, IMO. I'd love to see more stories about their followers.
@Quale: I'm okay with a soul merging with a god, but that's because I don't view it as a soul "ending". One could argue against that, but that's my take. And if a god dies, well...their whole realm kind of does, unless another deity snags it (like Corellon did with Eilistraee's), or that god shares his realm with more than one deity. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2012 : 15:34:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Erik, while we're at it, did you also write the side bar "Corellon, Gruumsh, and Lolth" that appears in the section on Arvandor in The Plane Above?
I believe so, though I also seem to recall that particular piece of lore was heavily edited from my original intention. It's been a couple years, and I don't regularly refer to that book (seeing as it's not a Realms book).
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Arvandor: core vs. FR
