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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 01:20:42
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I've had an NPC from second edition that I always liked. Her name was Lady Jillian Doncastle of Neverwinter, and she was a dual-classed Deneiran priest turned wizard. Her background story was that she was a wizard who wanted to be a detective, and as a Deneiran ran a Waterdhavian newspaper that revealed the secret doings of upper echelon members of Waterdhavian society (which was more salacious gossip, but she thought of herself as edgy.... and it did spread reading). She had this intelligent magical sai as a weapon named Lorey (its a very intelligent item, knows a lot of history, languages, etc.....), and the weapon is quit knowledgable of just how intelligent it is and isn't afraid to vocalize this fact aloud. Oh, and Lorey is also in love with Jillian (which causes no end of issues as its also a jealous weapon.... not physically, but annoyingly). Picture C3P0 as a sai
Anyway, recently I was thinking about using her in a story. That got me thinking about redoing her in 3.5 format. So, I started out with she's a Deneiran and a wizard. Being a Deneiran, I can see either cleric or archivist (from Heroes of Horror)... and I like the idea of her being an archivist (i.e. having a spellbook even for her divine spells). But these two classes aren't great at "detective" work, so I hit on the idea that maybe I could find a class to maybe give bardic knowledge. Then I saw the fochlucan lyrist. I'd be willing to cross class (bard 4/rogue 2) and lose all the spellcasting in order to enter the class, because I always pictured her as a meddler not a powerful mage. The only problem is that you have to know Druidic. I can't see this character being a druid at all. However,being a Deneiran... god of the written word and thus languages... I can see her possibly having the resources to actually learn Druidic.
So, after that long explanation, how protected do you envision the druidic language is? I feel almost like I'm cheating to say that she could use Speak Language points to learn it, but if any church would have bothered to find some ex-druid to learn it, Deneir's to me would be the one.
Anyway, the final build I'm looking at is
wizard 6 / archivist 1 / bard 1 / rogue 2 / fochlucan lyrist 10, such that at the end, she's lvl 19 character level, but lvl 16 as a wizard caster and lvl 11 as an archivist caster. As you can tell, its by no means optimized.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 01:33:54
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| oh, and she's a diviner with necromancy as the opposition school (not the wisest choice as an opp school, but I can't see her using necromancy). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 02:22:16
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The fact that the prerequisite says you need to know druidic, but doesn't say you need to be Druid means that there has to be a way to do it without being a Druid (because otherwise, the prerequisite would be to have Druid levels).
Because of the way its worded, I would say its entirely possible (and probably left just that way, so individual DMs can make that call).
EDIT: However, I just checked the SRD, and found this under 'Bonus languages'...
quote:
A druid also knows Druidic, a secret language known only to druids, which she learns upon becoming a 1st-level druid. Druidic is a free language for a druid; that is, she knows it in addition to her regular allotment of languages and it doesn’t take up a language slot. Druids are forbidden to teach this language to nondruids.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Sep 2012 02:26:14 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 14:07:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The fact that the prerequisite says you need to know druidic, but doesn't say you need to be Druid means that there has to be a way to do it without being a Druid (because otherwise, the prerequisite would be to have Druid levels).
Because of the way its worded, I would say its entirely possible (and probably left just that way, so individual DMs can make that call).
EDIT: However, I just checked the SRD, and found this under 'Bonus languages'...
quote:
A druid also knows Druidic, a secret language known only to druids, which she learns upon becoming a 1st-level druid. Druidic is a free language for a druid; that is, she knows it in addition to her regular allotment of languages and it doesn’t take up a language slot. Druids are forbidden to teach this language to nondruids.
Yeah, I've seen some ideas that make me think of ways that Deneir worshipping priests may have gotten access to the language. One of them was simply that an ex-druid may be coerced (either monetarily or magically) to teach the language. The most common version of that is the blighter prestige class, which reminds me of a possibility for Talosian and Talonite ex-druids (and possibly druids who have turned to Velsharoon).
So, I can see HOW the language could be gotten (though it would be relatively hard). In the end, its just another language like any other, so with access to a teacher (or the tools they use to teach new students), it should be able to be learned like any other language. I guess, my worry is how protective do you see druid's being about this language being learned by outsiders? Unlike the wizard's of Mulhorand who would hunt down people for knowing "read southern magic" in 2nd edition, there's really no major tactical issues that I see with knowing the language (i.e. you aren't suddenly reading druid spellbooks, because they don't have such). However, is there some major reason that they would turn around and hunt down someone who learns it?
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 15:44:06
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
However, is there some major reason that they would turn around and hunt down someone who learns it?
Yes. To turn them into a shrubbery! One that looks nice. And not too expensive.  |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 15:59:03
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Oh, and let me stress here... I wouldn't allow this for a PC without them working through an adventure or three to gain the knowledge, I'm more trying to figure out what kind of issues this NPC would run into for the mere fact that she's not a druid but she knows the language (and since she then seeks to become a fochlucan lyrist... she'd be discovered by at least some druids who have ties to the bardic colleges). I'd actually like to incorporate her interaction with the bardic colleges (and possibly the harpers) into her character. In reading through the class, the NPC character concept would seem to mesh well with their moral ethos (i.e. a keeper of lore, a herald and teacher of kings... only the best and brightest... skilled in swordplay, magic, and diplomacy. Oghma would make an even better deity, but I can definitely see Deneirans in the role as well, and she was always a Deneiran.) So, she shows up at the bardic colleges, displays her skill with a Lyre, her skill as a detective, is extremely diplomatic, is a powerful wizard, and indicates she'd like to join the order of Fochluchan lyrists and can speak druidic (and even cast druidic spells as an archivist). She doesn't hide the fact that her god is Deneir and not a nature deity.
What would happen whenever they discover she's not a "real" druid? I'll list some of the options I see, and maybe I'd like to get a feel from others.
A) They consider her form of divine magic a sacrilege and her knowledge of the druidic language a danger. They then put her to immediate and unequivocal death as a blasphemer. (note, to me, this doesn't seem to fit the ethos of the prestige class)
B) They consider her form of divine magic a sacrilege and her knowledge of the druidic language a danger. They put her to a test that almost guarantees her death, but if she survives they'd accept her as an unusual gift of the gods. They might then require some of the below results as well.
C) They consider her a most unusual curiosity, but one which would fit in well with their organization. However, they feel they need to close this loophole and require her to destroy the Deneiran books she researched in order to learn the language. They also place magical compulsions upon her to never train others in its use. Destroying this knowledge requires her to atone with her deity.
D) They consider her a most unusual curiosity, but one which would fit in well with their organization. However, they feel they need to close this loophole and require her to deliver to them the Deneiran books she researched in order to learn the language. They also place magical compulsions upon her to never train others in the secret Druidic language.
E) They consider her a most unusual curiosity, but one which would fit in well with their organization. They actually consider her arrival somewhat a gift of the gods to increase the bardic college's intelligence network. They prefer to leave the path she followed to learn Druidic open for those wily enough to discover it (though possibly they require her to obscure the texts magically to test those who follow). They require a simple oath that she not teach Druidic to others.
Maybe something else? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 16:06:39
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It's good to point out that druids take the secrecy of their language very seriously. A druid actually looses all his druidic powers when he teaches a non-druid druidic. Atonement is needed afterwards.
From the SRD
quote:
Ex-Druids
A druid who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid loses all spells and druid abilities (including her animal companion, but not including weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She cannot thereafter gain levels as a druid until she atones (see the atonement spell description).
So it's not unfathomable that the druid who has taught druidic to a PC would personally have to hunt down and kill the PC as the act of atonement. I'd imagine if he'd fail, other druids would be obliged to carry out his atonement, and they would probably hunt down both the offending druid and the new speaker of druidic, burn their corpses in a wickerman and spreas their ashes to prevent resurrection or reincarnation.
As to why druids would go about those great lengths to keep their language so secret is a mystery. I personally think it is so because druidic is composed of the first words spoken by terrestial sentients on a Prime Material world. It's in essence a primal common, used for conveying information over great distances and unfettered by cultural and natural boundaries.
For Toril, druidic might have language consisting of a mix of archaic saurial, draconic and sylvan words. If there is a script it is likely to be very basic, and capable to be written in most common animal forms of druids (scratched into bark by wolf, bear or great cat claws). A druid that needs to write druidic down is advised to leave druidic script on perishable materials so the writing fades after its intended use (warning most likely). Perhaps there are groves where druidic sciptures are guarded with constant vigil by a multitude of awakened plants, animals and druids. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 17:02:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
It's good to point out that druids take the secrecy of their language very seriously. A druid actually looses all his druidic powers when he teaches a non-druid druidic. Atonement is needed afterwards.
From the SRD
quote:
Ex-Druids
A druid who ceases to revere nature, changes to a prohibited alignment, or teaches the Druidic language to a nondruid loses all spells and druid abilities (including her animal companion, but not including weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She cannot thereafter gain levels as a druid until she atones (see the atonement spell description).
So it's not unfathomable that the druid who has taught druidic to a PC would personally have to hunt down and kill the PC as the act of atonement. I'd imagine if he'd fail, other druids would be obliged to carry out his atonement, and they would probably hunt down both the offending druid and the new speaker of druidic, burn their corpses in a wickerman and spreas their ashes to prevent resurrection or reincarnation.
As to why druids would go about those great lengths to keep their language so secret is a mystery. I personally think it is so because druidic is composed of the first words spoken by terrestial sentients on a Prime Material world. It's in essence a primal common, used for conveying information over great distances and unfettered by cultural and natural boundaries.
For Toril, druidic might have language consisting of a mix of archaic saurial, draconic and sylvan words. If there is a script it is likely to be very basic, and capable to be written in most common animal forms of druids (scratched into bark by wolf, bear or great cat claws). A druid that needs to write druidic down is advised to leave druidic script on perishable materials so the writing fades after its intended use (warning most likely). Perhaps there are groves where druidic sciptures are guarded with constant vigil by a multitude of awakened plants, animals and druids.
Good points, and thank you. In the instance I'm describing, the ex-druid who gave the lessons may be several generations dead. The Deneiran priest who recorded the information and created a "language primer" would also be several generations dead. So, the druidic community may not even know of this transgression UNTIL this individual steps forward willingly and presents to them this "chip" in their armor. Does this society that's goal is about learning kill her for having read and learned to use the language? Is the only reason that this society requires knowledge of druidic is so that they can pass information secretly and not anything strongly nature oriented? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 18:29:06
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I think the need for secrecy is obviously for the benefit of the global druidic organisation. Indeed, having the means to pass information secretly would be the only reason, because as soon as the secret language is discovered the communication lines throughout the whole global organisation are hamstrung or endangered.
Thus the very fact that Fochlucan Lyrists require one to learn the language means likely that they are considered part of the global druidic organisation and/or are equal to druids in their own right, even though some actual members are bards, rogues, archivists, wizards or what have you. These non-druids with druidic under their belt would be under constant scrutiny though, as they lack the loss of powers and the need to atone for the consequences of their actions if did teach the secret language to nondruids.
Beginning Fochlucan lyrists are probably ranked* within the druidic society as neonates, aspirants or seekers. 5th to 8th level lyrists could rank around the 2th to 6th circle (depending on how knowledgable they are and their expertise with druidic spells), with Fochlucan Masters (level 8+ lyrists) ranking among the Archdruids themselves. I'd say Fochlucan Masters are to be privvy to all the great convenes the Archdruids have and some might have spoken to the Great Druids, or seen the Grand Druid themselves...
*look here for the 0D&D ranking system among druids as a handy guideline for the organisation of druidic hierarchy |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 19:45:52
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| Ok, so as you see it then, she shows up, demonstrates all her varied capabilities to a member of the Fochlucan Lyrist society (some of which are druids), which at a given bard college is probably only 3 or 4 individuals at most. That small group then decides what to do about her. They don't choose to kill her, as long as she provides the provides the proof that she wasn't the source of the druidic language being transcribed in such a way that outsiders can learn it (which also serves as somewhat of a test of her allegiance). Perhaps they force her to turn over the "training books" so that they can be provided to the affilliated druid circle as proof of her good intentions. Then, she could head back to the big city and pretty much only be involved with the harpers and bards at the bard college (with the occasional "heads-up" whenever she finds out something that local druids may want to be involved in, or maybe turning to them whenever she needs something explored that involves beasts or plant life). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 20:47:25
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Aye, if she shows to be very careful with the language she'll manage to gain the trust of the Lyrists. But I'd imagine being part of the global/multiregional druidic organisation comes with some stringent duties. Especially if she manages to get into the upper levels of the class and becomes a Fochlucan Master, her duties to revere and protect nature will take up a large sum of her time.
I think it would be reasonable to accept that a Fochlucan Master is expected at most moots (the annual or moonphase directed meetings) that druids hold. She'd be able to aid those druids present in unconventional scholarly ways, and feeding reliable information to the whole organisation could be considered of high value for some druids. Other druids who crave nothing but savage elemental power might consider her 'urbane' ways an affront though...
The higher echelon of the druidic hierarchy is a dangerously predatory game of power... so she would be wise to keep a close tap on the wheeling and dealing amongst the druids, lest she become challenged by a druid (or whole grove) hungering for more power.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2012 : 21:06:56
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| IMO, it's more of a supernatural issue. You would need to be initiated through some sort of rite or ritual to be able to understand and speak it. Rangers and other nature worshippers might be able to learn it this way. But I wouldn't allow a druid to just teach it to someone like it was a normal language. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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rjfras
Learned Scribe
261 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 00:45:48
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You don't just wake up one day and bam, your a fochlucan lyrist.
if she is going to attend the school to learn how to be a fochlucan lyrist, she would go through some of the schooling before she actually becomes a full fledged fochlucan lyrist, so make learning druidic part of the studying she does at the school as she is becoming a fochlucan lyrist.
They see potential in her, they invite her to the school to learn, one of her classes is learning druidic. once she graduates, she is then a fochlcan lyrist.
or you can always have the sai teach her... |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 01:16:16
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| I had a halforc character that was a level 1 druid level 3 ranger named Bowug, before I read the orc king, who taught the language to bards for money. The question becomes is it simply a case where druids want to kill you, the case we are working under, or the God come and takes your power away. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 05:41:08
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I honestly think you're making this more difficult than it needs to be... it's a mistake that I used to make, actually.
Instead of trying to fit a square peg into a round hole, why don't you just create your own PrC that suits the character? That's WAY easier than trying to find the right PrC combination to get your NPC to do what you want it to do.
I used to make this mistake all the time. I was never really happy with the outcome, and sometimes I'd end up with a ton of different classes and PrC's just to get the right skills and abilities for the character I envisioned. Which usually left them both horribly built AND higher level than they needed to be.
So, instead of trying to figure out all this stuff, I'd sit down and focus on the character concept. What do you want this character to do, and how do the mechanics of the game reflect that fact? Then sit down and begin sketching out your PrC based on that concept. I usually use another PrC as a rough guideline.
That's my suggestion, as it'll get you closer to what you want. |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
573 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 12:22:10
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I think that folks are overlooking some fairly basic explanations here:
It's unfathomable that a druid would teach the language, but what if a druid were tricked? What if a circle were spied? What if they were the victims of fraud? What about a disgruntled former druid?
All perfectly acceptable explanations, imo. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 20:46:11
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, after that long explanation, how protected do you envision the druidic language is? I feel almost like I'm cheating to say that she could use Speak Language points to learn it, but if any church would have bothered to find some ex-druid to learn it, Deneir's to me would be the one.
My guess is that it's more protected that a specific wizard's arcane memorization script, but is only slightly more understandable. Because if it's rooted ( ) in their teachings, even with translating magic for the uninitiated it would sound much like e.g. Lisp or C++ related jokes for a numerate native English speaker - yes, every word is kind of understandable, but what of it?  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 21:48:22
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I have been looking at this.
In many ways I think even if taught 1000 years ago, the Druids would track down every one taught to make sure they would not spread the secret knowledge. So you learned and want to join? certainly could be an option I would guess, however the price would be aiding in detecting all others that learned it.
In some ways a simple answer would be say the language changes by the seasons. That is the meaning of oak tree three years ago no longer means the same thing, the term associated with something else. Sort of along the line of password changing though a little more involved. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 00:42:50
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Okay, here's my two coppers, take it as you will.
#1): Druidic is considered "secret" only because it is sacred; it's like asking the Church to make the entire text of the Dead Sea scrolls public. Not likely to happen, as there are things in there they don't want known outside the clergy. Druids take their role VERY seriously, and one of the three most important tenets (going on RW Druidism here, which I have studied to some degree) is TO KEEP SILENT. In otehr words, knowing when and how to remain discreet in matter best kept private and/or secret. BTW, the first one is TO KNOW, which would tie very closely to Deneir, so this could be a link between them. Also, Druidic is more a written language than spoken, and is actually fairly simple to learn, so long as one has the key to understanding how the script works. It uses the Ogham alphabet of the Gaelic Celts, which can still be learned even today. D&D Druidic language, being based on RL Druids, is much the same, IIRC.
#2): Dragon #311 had a bard prestige called Green Whisperer, which gave some Druidic spell levels and a couple of nature-oriented bardic abilities. There was also another PrC called Worldspeaker, which gave several language-oriented bardic abilities, most of which were aimed at talking to plants, animals, elementals, and eventally even the earth itself and even the dead. One could easily take these two PrC's and either take a level or two of each, OR use them as the base for a new PrC with similar benefits to both. This could certainly be taught in a bardic college, and for bard with a nature-oriented bent, could be the basis for learning Druidic as part of the PrC itself, or as Druids deciding to entrust her with the language. Both PrC's are only five levels, so even taking one level of each, or simply combining them (I'd use the spell-casting levels of Green Whisperer- dropping it to every other level instead of every level- as well as the Soothe the Savage Beast Green Ear abilities from it, and drop the Mineral Speech and Grave Speech of the World Speaker to compensate as a suggestion, but you could use your own combo of the two.)
Instead of taking all those classes, I would suggest a few levels of wizard, enough bard levels to qualify for either of the two PrC's above, and then just add the Foluchan Lyrist. I don't think you'd actually need any cleric levels, as Denier could very well have bards among his church officials, and bards do gain a few cleric spells, so actual cleric levels are unneccessary. Alternately, instead of wizard, try a Beguiler build to combine both the rogue and wizard skill-sets. The spell-list fits with a more investigative type of spell-caster, and combined with a few bard levels, will give an impressive amount of skill points. This may also cut down on the number of total character levels, since the progression will be quicker for spellcasting levels. Then use the three PrC's I've discussed above to fill it out for the Druidic aspects. Not only is this a better build, but it will also fit the concept better, and cut back on the need to make the character higher level! If you don't have the issue of Dragon available, You can PM me for the stats of the two PrC's, and I'd be happy to send them to you. |
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"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 01:15:20
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quote:
Originally posted by rjfras
You don't just wake up one day and bam, your a fochlucan lyrist.
if she is going to attend the school to learn how to be a fochlucan lyrist, she would go through some of the schooling before she actually becomes a full fledged fochlucan lyrist, so make learning druidic part of the studying she does at the school as she is becoming a fochlucan lyrist.
They see potential in her, they invite her to the school to learn, one of her classes is learning druidic. once she graduates, she is then a fochlcan lyrist.
or you can always have the sai teach her...
Trust me, I realize she'd have to be trained, but that's what all those prior levels of rogue, bard, wizard, and archivist were all for. Those 10 levels prepped her to be initiated to their secrets.
The problem is, she isn't going to become a druid, and the bard college isn't going to teach it. The semi-secret society is open only to those who can display their "amazing skills" to those already initiated. I actually considered the sai's intelligence actually being the spirit of a past Fochlucan Lyrist (because Lorey too would never make a good druid), but I felt that was a bit TOO cheesy. I have always wanted to write up Lorey's past history though. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 01:27:14
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, after that long explanation, how protected do you envision the druidic language is? I feel almost like I'm cheating to say that she could use Speak Language points to learn it, but if any church would have bothered to find some ex-druid to learn it, Deneir's to me would be the one.
My guess is that it's more protected that a specific wizard's arcane memorization script, but is only slightly more understandable. Because if it's rooted () in their teachings, even with translating magic for the uninitiated it would sound much like e.g. Lisp or C++ related jokes for a numerate native English speaker - yes, every word is kind of understandable, but what of it?
Actually, that is kind of one of the things that attracted me to this in a way. She's an "archivist" class. So, unlike every other priest who does some hoodoo prayer to their god and recieves their spells based on their class... she's actually learned to break down divine casting to its base components and "write it out like a program in its special divine language". So, she can cast cleric spells, druid spells, shugenja spells, ranger spells, paladin spells, and conceivably any divine spell that she can break down. It absolutely fits her as a Deneiran, and the fact that maybe she learned the druidic language in order to see "past the mystery" of divine magic is what made things work for her. Throw in that she's also a wizard who is into of all specializations... divination... or as I like to call it "the searcher's specialization". She's a spellcaster who wants to figure out how "everything" works, and thus her interest in detective work as well. Now, the fact that she "wants" to learn all this doesn't mean she's 007... it does mean sometimes she tries too hard to fit in and overthinks things. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 01:44:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Okay, here's my two coppers, take it as you will.
#1): Druidic is considered "secret" only because it is sacred; it's like asking the Church to make the entire text of the Dead Sea scrolls public. Not likely to happen, as there are things in there they don't want known outside the clergy. Druids take their role VERY seriously, and one of the three most important tenets (going on RW Druidism here, which I have studied to some degree) is TO KEEP SILENT. In otehr words, knowing when and how to remain discreet in matter best kept private and/or secret. BTW, the first one is TO KNOW, which would tie very closely to Deneir, so this could be a link between them. Also, Druidic is more a written language than spoken, and is actually fairly simple to learn, so long as one has the key to understanding how the script works. It uses the Ogham alphabet of the Gaelic Celts, which can still be learned even today. D&D Druidic language, being based on RL Druids, is much the same, IIRC.
#2): Dragon #311 had a bard prestige called Green Whisperer, which gave some Druidic spell levels and a couple of nature-oriented bardic abilities. There was also another PrC called Worldspeaker, which gave several language-oriented bardic abilities, most of which were aimed at talking to plants, animals, elementals, and eventally even the earth itself and even the dead. One could easily take these two PrC's and either take a level or two of each, OR use them as the base for a new PrC with similar benefits to both. This could certainly be taught in a bardic college, and for bard with a nature-oriented bent, could be the basis for learning Druidic as part of the PrC itself, or as Druids deciding to entrust her with the language. Both PrC's are only five levels, so even taking one level of each, or simply combining them (I'd use the spell-casting levels of Green Whisperer- dropping it to every other level instead of every level- as well as the Soothe the Savage Beast Green Ear abilities from it, and drop the Mineral Speech and Grave Speech of the World Speaker to compensate as a suggestion, but you could use your own combo of the two.)
Instead of taking all those classes, I would suggest a few levels of wizard, enough bard levels to qualify for either of the two PrC's above, and then just add the Foluchan Lyrist. I don't think you'd actually need any cleric levels, as Denier could very well have bards among his church officials, and bards do gain a few cleric spells, so actual cleric levels are unneccessary. Alternately, instead of wizard, try a Beguiler build to combine both the rogue and wizard skill-sets. The spell-list fits with a more investigative type of spell-caster, and combined with a few bard levels, will give an impressive amount of skill points. This may also cut down on the number of total character levels, since the progression will be quicker for spellcasting levels. Then use the three PrC's I've discussed above to fill it out for the Druidic aspects. Not only is this a better build, but it will also fit the concept better, and cut back on the need to make the character higher level! If you don't have the issue of Dragon available, You can PM me for the stats of the two PrC's, and I'd be happy to send them to you.
I'd be interested in reading the green whisperer. I may have to go look that up. However, the reason why I want the fochlucan lyrist is simply because of its building up of the bardic knowledge skill as well as a divine casting class and wizardry. In the end, I want her to have a little bit of "rogue" type skills (which she picked up in rogue and bard before becoming a fochlucan), an amazing set of knowledge scores, a decent bardic knowledge skill, some ability to stand and deliver in a melee, and the ability to cast mid-lvl divine spells and upper level wizard spells.
Another option I played with was harper mage (because it has something like bardic knowledge) and mystic theurge (because her core idea was a divine caster of deneir and a wizard), but I didn't like the final build. The fochlucan seems to embody where I'm going. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 02:43:37
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, after that long explanation, how protected do you envision the druidic language is? I feel almost like I'm cheating to say that she could use Speak Language points to learn it, but if any church would have bothered to find some ex-druid to learn it, Deneir's to me would be the one.
My guess is that it's more protected that a specific wizard's arcane memorization script, but is only slightly more understandable. Because if it's rooted () in their teachings, even with translating magic for the uninitiated it would sound much like e.g. Lisp or C++ related jokes for a numerate native English speaker - yes, every word is kind of understandable, but what of it?
That's a great example TBeholder.
As a programmer myself, I've often left many non-programmer types with quizzical looks on their faces when they've tried to decipher my scripting/coding works that I regularly have scattered over my desktop. |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 03:17:57
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Anyway, the first thing here is that nothing this widespread can remain secret, double so with mind-reading almost as widespread. So it's either just one more obscure, but learnable "secret language" like thieves' cant, or it relies on something else.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
That is the meaning of oak tree three years ago no longer means the same thing, the term associated with something else. Sort of along the line of password changing though a little more involved.
Yeah, and all those hermits in uninhabited areas have live-update.  And no, it was initially defined outside of Faerun, i.e. mostly for druids working without gods.
Thieves' cant may mutate, but it only needs to work inside one relatively dense community. Druid language is in exactly opposite situation: contacts are few and far between. Lose compatibility, and that's the end.
It's even worse with the written version, which becomes at best impractical if it requires the date stamped on every page and the reader remembering all the ever-changing codes (they aren't known as fans of huge libraries).
And the most obvious "something else" is the prerequisite knowledge - in this case, both mundane nature lore and religion.
Then, it can be either a language/cypher proper, or a language layer on top of naturally occuring languages. Much like alchemical language in our world: it can be translated easily, but if you take it for the face value and try to use texts, it won't give you anything meaningful - other than maybe mercury poisoning. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 20:21:02
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Which Druidic language do you mean? According to Tom Costa's article in Dragon Annual 1999, p.28, there are two. "Drueidan is the secret tongue of druids. A powerful sect of druids dedicated to Silvanus were the first to develop Drueidan. However, an agreement amongthe nature gods of Faerûn spread the language to most druids of the Realms irrespective of faith, with dialects emerging among different faiths and regions. Daelic is the similar, but distinct, secret tongue of druids dedicated to the Earth-mother of the Moonshaes." Drueidan and Daelic are closely related, and they are related to two other languages in the Waelan language group: Waelan, the language of the Five Kingdoms, and Cosh a "little-known tongue made up of a number of creoles and patois spoken in some forgotten enclaves among the Nelanther Isles."
Illusionists have their own language as well, Ruathlek, created by Leira, which is spoken openly in Nimbral. |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 23:28:51
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Maybe instead of corrupting 35 years of meta-lore and thousands of years of in game lore you could...
Gasp!
Take a level in druid? |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2012 : 00:04:27
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| Well, as I said above, if you're interested in a lot of skill points in knowledge, as well as some rogue-type skills AND the arcane spells, the Beguiler might be the way to go, then use the bard/green whisperer for the bardic knowledge and divine spells. It's a cheaper build than trying to take four base classes (wiz,rogue,bard,and cleric or druid) and bard already gives you some divine AND arcanes spells anyway, but using the beguiler expands on that. Since the GW PrC gives both bard AND druid casting levels, you get a two-fer with it. Even just a couple of levels of this PrC will help with the Foluchan Lyrist requirements, since it gives one druid spell-levels without needing to take the druid class. A good build here might be- Bard 3/Beguiler 5/GrnWsp 3(I'd splice in the Tongues and Animal Speech abilitis of the Worldspeaker at 2nd lvl instead of the bard and druid spells gained at that lvl)/FolLy 4 for a 15th lvl ECL. It's not as high-level as the build you started with, but gives you some good capabilities with the character concept in mind, without using too many classes. As a caveat, I might suggest tweaking the Beguiler class to add Evasion, perhaps in place of the Silent Spell feat at 5th lvl, to help qualify for the Fol Lyr PrC. Mind, this is just my suggested build, but it should work well for what you have in mind, though you could play around with it to see what works best for the character. But this build seems to fit your concept the best. |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2012 : 08:54:58
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
Maybe instead of corrupting 35 years of meta-lore
Hmm?
1st edition assassins explicitly could learn Druidic.
The 2nd edition Complete Druid's Handbook explicitly states, "the druid's secret language, while private, is not supernatural—theoretically, others can learn it."
The Forgotten Realms Adventures version of specialty priests of Deneir said they can speak any language that Deneir can speak. This defined in Sage Advice in Dragon 198 as meaning any language of Realmspace, which obviously would include Druidic.
Faiths & Avatars establishes that glyphscribes had access to all languages of Realmspace, in language very similar to the Dragon #198 Sage Advice.
It's pretty clear that Druidic can be taught to non-druids in 3.x, or else there wouldn't be a prohibition on teaching it to non-druids. You don't have to prohibit impossibilities.
Similarly, there's nothing in the 3.x rules about an ex-druid losing the ability to speak Druidic; a druid who changed alignment incompatibly could teach people, and they already lost their powers, after all.
3.x Loremasters can choose any new language at 4th and 8th level, with no restriction against Druidic, so they also could learn/teach it. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 06 Oct 2012 : 15:17:44
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quote:
Originally posted by see
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
Maybe instead of corrupting 35 years of meta-lore
Hmm?
1st edition assassins explicitly could learn Druidic.
The 2nd edition Complete Druid's Handbook explicitly states, "the druid's secret language, while private, is not supernatural—theoretically, others can learn it."
The Forgotten Realms Adventures version of specialty priests of Deneir said they can speak any language that Deneir can speak. This defined in Sage Advice in Dragon 198 as meaning any language of Realmspace, which obviously would include Druidic.
Faiths & Avatars establishes that glyphscribes had access to all languages of Realmspace, in language very similar to the Dragon #198 Sage Advice.
It's pretty clear that Druidic can be taught to non-druids in 3.x, or else there wouldn't be a prohibition on teaching it to non-druids. You don't have to prohibit impossibilities.
Similarly, there's nothing in the 3.x rules about an ex-druid losing the ability to speak Druidic; a druid who changed alignment incompatibly could teach people, and they already lost their powers, after all.
3.x Loremasters can choose any new language at 4th and 8th level, with no restriction against Druidic, so they also could learn/teach it.
Thank you. After reading this response, I definitely don't feel bad, considering the priesthood chosen (Deneiran), etc.... The part about glyphscribes in faiths and avatars really decided it for me (which, I understand is second edition, but from a lore standpoint it makes me think that somewhere in the church of Deneir would be a book where someone would have created some sort of cipher for druidic). For an NPC, I'm liking this idea. Now, I need to actually sit down and start writing the story I wanted to write.
Speaking of which, has there been any further lore on the "Imprisoners" who created the "blueflame" items in the years leading up to the spellplague? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Druidic Language? Just how protected
