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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Sep 2012 : 22:25:57
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I had written up a new metamagic feat a week or so back, but the more I thought about it, I felt it should be part of a class structure. I felt there could be a good synergy here with someone who is interested in spell mantles, contingent effects, wardings, etc... and this class could also dovetail well with my arcane transformist prestige class for someone who really wanted to take this kind of study to extremes. By the way, I'm not real fond of the class name, so if anyone thinks of something snazzier... let me know.
The mantle bearer prestige class is a class for those who have done in-depth studies of magic extending and magic triggering effects. The mantle bearer has learned new ways to manipulate stored spells, such that they become harder to remove, easier to activate, and more flexible in their duration.
Prerequisites: persistent spell feat (PgtF pg 42) , spell mantle feat (LeoF pg 112), knowledge (arcana) 14, spellcraft 14,
lvl BAB For Ref Wil Special Spells per day/spells known
1st +0 +0 +0 +2 mantle resistance +1 level of existing
2nd +1 +0 +0 +3 magical artisan feat +1 level of existing
(craft contingent spell)
3rd +1 +1 +1 +3 toggle spell +1 level of existing
4th +2 +1 +1 +4 improved mantle +1 level of existing
resistance
5th +2 +1 +1 +4 metamagic reduction +1 level of existing
(persistent spell)
6th +3 +2 +2 +5 immediate mantle +1 level of existing
7th +3 +2 +2 +5 improved toggle spell+1 level of existing
Alignment: Any Hit Dice: d4
Skill Points at each additional level: 2 + int modifier
Skills: The following skills are considered class skills for a Mantle Bearer: concentration, craft, decipher script, knowledge(all skills, taken individually), Profession, Spellcraft
mantle resistance – with regards to dispel magic and similar magic removing effects, any contingent spells created with craft contingent spell have their DC increased by 2 as if the spell were cast at 2 spellcaster levels higher (up to the mantle bearer's maximum caster level)
magical artisan feat (craft contingent spell)- The mantle bearer learns to craft contingent spells for less cost. The character gains the magical artisan feat (PgtF pg 41) as pertains to the craft contingent spell item creation feat for free
toggle spell – The mantle bearer gains access to a new ability that can be applied to personal, fixed range, or touch range spells that are cast upon himself. The spell must be one that is dismissable. Spells of instantaneous duration cannot be affected by this ability, nor can spells whose effects are discharged. The spell to be affected must be of a level 3 levels below the maximum level spell that the mantle bearer can cast (maximum 5th lvl). This ability can be applied a certain number of times per day equal to half the class level of the mantle bearer (i.e. a 5th lvl mantle bearer can do so twice per day) and must be applied as the spell is cast. After metamagically modifying a spell with toggle spell, the mantle bearer is able to dismiss the spell before its duration is up, but instead of it dissipating he adds it to the mantle of contingent spells upon his person. However, the toggled spell has no contingent condition under which it will automatically activate, and the duration that has already been used is now lost. The mantle bearer can reactivate the spell later as a standard action to continue to use its duration, and may dismiss it multiple times throughout the day until its full duration is utilized. Note that antimagic field and similar magic dissipating effects cannot be combined with toggle spell. The toggled spell counts against the maximum number of contingent spells that a character can have via the craft contingent spell feat. If a toggled spell is not fully utilized within 24 hours of being initially cast, the spell dissipates harmlessly.
Improved mantle resistance – with regards to dispel magic and similar magic removing effects, any contingent spells created with craft contingent spell have their DC increased by 5 as if the spell were cast at 5 spellcaster levels higher (up to the mantle bearer's maximum caster level)
metamagic reduction (persistent spell) – when using the persistent spell metamagic feat, the number of spell levels that the spell must be raised is reduced by 1. Note, this does work with other methods of reducing metamagic cost (for instance, the adroit casting of Halruaan elders, improved metamagic by incantatrix, or various other feats or class abilities)
immediate mantle – normally with the spell mantle feat, a character can activate a contingent spell as a standard action. Immediate mantle allows the mantle bearer to activate contingent spells created with the craft contingent spell feat as immediate actions.
improved toggle spell – same as the earlier toggle spell, except that the character can activate the toggled spell after the initial casting as an immediate action and the maximum spell lvl that can be affected is 6th lvl. Note that antimagic field and similar magic dissipating effects cannot be combined with toggle spell.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2390 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 13:41:56
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I had written up a new metamagic feat a week or so back, but the more I thought about it, I felt it should be part of a class structure. I felt there could be a good synergy here with someone who is interested in spell mantles, contingent effects, wardings, etc...
(shrug) You can have two or three? One for mantles, another for spell-fields study (for mantles, this would affect embedded spells, but not basic defences). And make them synergize with each other and everything else relevant, why not?
If you want to model an elf interested mostly in mantles, why not just an abjurer specialists, or more likely elven dualist (Alurakar)?
Do you really think adding "classes" customized to a single spell or so (like that that "magic missile hurler" thing) are a very good idea? |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 14:38:26
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I love the force missle mage, with tweaks of course.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 17:46:03
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I had written up a new metamagic feat a week or so back, but the more I thought about it, I felt it should be part of a class structure. I felt there could be a good synergy here with someone who is interested in spell mantles, contingent effects, wardings, etc...
(shrug) You can have two or three? One for mantles, another for spell-fields study (for mantles, this would affect embedded spells, but not basic defences). And make them synergize with each other and everything else relevant, why not?
If you want to model an elf interested mostly in mantles, why not just an abjurer specialists, or more likely elven dualist (Alurakar)?
Do you really think adding "classes" customized to a single spell or so (like that that "magic missile hurler" thing) are a very good idea?
Hells yeah, the versatility this adds... versus a bland abjurer. The abjurer has to react for the most part. The idea here is for the spellcaster who is very much into preparation. Plus, as I pointed out, this class would dovetail well with the arcane transformist prestige class I made about 6 years back which dealt with a character who wanted to learn how to modify trigger characteristics of spells (on himself, or on other people). Someone with these types of builds is definitely an unexpected force on the battlefield with some interesting versatility. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2012 : 23:10:53
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| You should talk to George Krashos, since he updated mantles for us under his ask the scribes collection. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2012 : 21:53:08
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
You should talk to George Krashos, since he updated mantles for us under his ask the scribes collection.
Yeah, his stuff is dependent on the epic spell. Which is a fine idea for much more powerful mantles than what I'm building. However, those epic mantles will also be harder to assemble, etc... so this idea would be the mantle for the working man with enough versatility to be able to change things up day to day. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2012 : 01:08:08
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It's funny, I looked at sleyvas' prestige class approach and thought - so much more elegant and usable than my effort!
I like it plenty. As always, sleyvas is the man when it comes to spells and spellcasters. He's been that for 15 or so years in my Realms experience. And I'm likely doing him an injustice timewise.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2012 : 13:35:08
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
It's funny, I looked at sleyvas' prestige class approach and thought - so much more elegant and usable than my effort!
I like it plenty. As always, sleyvas is the man when it comes to spells and spellcasters. He's been that for 15 or so years in my Realms experience. And I'm likely doing him an injustice timewise.
-- George Krashos
Thanks man. Both methods have a place in the world. Yours would be for the wizard who decided to specialize in some other field with his classes and then became an epic spellcaster and decided he needed to create some form of "hung" magical protection. It may cost him a little more as a result, but those mantles will be stronger and less likely to be simply dispelled. Mines for the guy who spends a lot more time prepping and is lower in level (and great for a main villain if the DM has the patience to figure out a small allotment of contingencies). In the epic levels, its still useful, but like most epic spellcasters, he'll have to pick up the epic spell seed and start experimenting there. Just goes to show though, there's more than one way to twist the weave. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 04:39:14
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Sorry, I didn't know Sleyvas had designer street cred. So do you have any ideas how
southern magic might be different that northern magic ala what Frostrune talks about
in Blackstaff? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 06:22:46
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
Sorry, I didn't know Sleyvas had designer street cred. So do you have any ideas how
southern magic might be different that northern magic ala what Frostrune talks about
in Blackstaff?
I'm not familiar with the exact reference you're talking about. However if Priamon's talking about "southern magic", there's 2 likely sources. First being the obvious, that Mulhorandi and Untherite mages used a magical "formulae" that is different than the standard arcane formulae for writing out their spells. This required a special spell called "read southern magic" in 2nd edition. Note, that read southern magic had been deciphered by mages of Halruaa, such that they were able to read and understand captured Mulan spellbooks. The second option would be he's comparing the magic used by northern wizards to that of more southerly countries like Halruaa and/or Calimshan. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6648 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2012 : 06:43:42
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He's talking about Priamon "Frostrune" Rakesk of the Twisted Rune and your second option. Steven Schend is probably the best person to ask about this, as he's the one who has alluded to the differences in "Southern Magic" in most of his products that dealt with this region. One of the most notable is "mozaic magic" as described in 'Empires of the Shining Sea'.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2012 : 20:09:28
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On a related topic, does anyone know if the classic 'Mantle' spell from (page 93) the 2E Realms 'Secrets of the Magister' book has ever been updated into a 3/3.5E or Pathfinder version? That and 'Blood Lightning', a 4th level 2E spell from (page 76) 'The Seven Sisters' 2E book are my favorite 'lost magics' that never seem to have made the leap from 2E forward.
Sigh. |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2012 : 21:19:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey
On a related topic, does anyone know if the classic 'Mantle' spell from (page 93) the 2E Realms 'Secrets of the Magister' book has ever been updated into a 3/3.5E or Pathfinder version? That and 'Blood Lightning', a 4th level 2E spell from (page 76) 'The Seven Sisters' 2E book are my favorite 'lost magics' that never seem to have made the leap from 2E forward.
Sigh.
There was what seems to have been a design decision with 3.0/3.5 that basically bent these abilities.... basically, the problem with a lot of the spells from earlier editions wasn't how powerful they necessarily were when seen at face value. The problem came in when someone (like me) looked at all of these types of spells and started throwing together NPC's who were using many of these triggered type effects on a single character. There was nothing to prevent in theory someone from having all of them. Another such "broken" spell was rainbow shield from Seven Sisters (a 4th lvl spell that stored a retributive 3rd lvl spell that affected anyone attacking the rainbow shield wearer), especially broken when combined with cure spells (i.e. the spellcaster lets his compatriots punch him for a single point of damage and then they're cured). But pretty much all the "hung spell" effects that came out were great because they opened people's eyes to possibilities... just enough that they knew they had to fix it in the new editions.
So, what was the fix? "Hanging" spells became item creation feats (like attune gem, craft contingent spell, tattoo spell, etc...) and metamagic feats like persistence enabled the creation of "personal shields". Some classes (such as the one I just developed) were created with some small focus on doing this sort of thing. However, I think my two classes (the arcane transformist and this new mantle bearer) are the only ones that really have delved strongly into this idea. The arcane transformist learns all about "triggers" for waiting spells (detecting them, determining what they will do once triggered, modifying the trigger, modifying the effect of the waiting spell, etc...). This new one instead focus on hanging protections which can be readily raised. One class is more offensive, the other is more defensive... but both delve into similar mysteries.
So, not everyone can have all of these options unless they give up other more traditional class choices in order to gain them.
Oh, and wow, in thinking through all this.... I just thought of a great mechanic for the arcane transformist. Perhaps for each level spent in the class.... then the caster level of any "crafted contingent spell" is perhaps increased by 1 at no cost. In other words, you have 5 levels in arcane transformist want to make a crafted contingent spell that includes a 4th lvl spell.. by default the caster lvl has to be 7th lvl... but this would enable them to create said spell but spending money and xp as if it were 2nd lvl caster lvl (so from 28 X 100 gp to 8 x 100 gp... plus they have an improved version of magical artisan for contingent spells reducing it further in half.... so from 2800 gp to 400 gp). Might have to play with the math... maybe just an increase every other level rounded down (so that the above example would be 4th lvl, created at 5th caster lvl +2 caster lvl free, so 20x100 gp.... and then that cut in half to 1000 gp). I like the idea of the bonus caster level, just to make them harder to dispel. Maybe this new mechanic could replace where I gave the magical artisan improvement (i.e. from 75% reduction to 50% reduction) instead.
By the way, while some folks are heavily interested in "hung" spells, other folks are more focused on dispel magic and protecting themselves from dispel magic (or anti-magic field, etc...). The two fields of study are both the anti-thesis of the other, but both can see the benefit of the other. If you're interested in this, you might be interested in my mystical disperser prestige class. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2390 Posts |
Posted - 28 Sep 2012 : 12:00:01
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
You can have two or three? One for mantles, another for spell-fields study [...] Do you really think adding "classes" customized to a single spell or so (like that that "magic missile hurler" thing) are a very good idea?
Hells yeah, the versatility this adds...
Sorry, do you agree with the first or the last? Because mentioning "versatility" suggest the former, but context latter. 
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
versus a bland abjurer.
"Better than nothing" isn't exactly a mark of great stuff. IMHO.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The idea here is for the spellcaster who is very much into preparation.
As compared to... uh... what... every viable user of Vancian magic ever?
quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
Sorry, I didn't know Sleyvas had designer street cred. So do you have any ideas how
southern magic might be different that northern magic
AD&D version had "Read Southern Magic" requirement. But essentially, it just needs some of implicit elements of 3e wizard to be made explicit. Much the same thing as we'd need to have schools of thaumaturgy translated any better than "take 3 levels in generalist, then..." prestige classes and spell requirements for artificiers - which more often than not kills the whole point of having a different approach.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Another such "broken" spell was rainbow shield from Seven Sisters (a 4th lvl spell that stored a retributive 3rd lvl spell that affected anyone attacking the rainbow shield wearer), especially broken when combined with cure spells (i.e. the spellcaster lets his compatriots punch him for a single point of damage and then they're cured).
So true. Rainbow shield is cool, but needs something like one more reasonable limitation. I'd say either "area affecting spell" or "Evocation" would do, as examples were fireball and lightning bolt.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, what was the fix? "Hanging" spells became item creation feats (like attune gem, craft contingent spell, tattoo spell, etc...) and metamagic feats like persistence enabled the creation of "personal shields".
Yeah. Clumsy. But working. But clumsy.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
This new one instead focus on hanging protections which can be readily raised. One class is more offensive, the other is more defensive... but both delve into similar mysteries.
So, not everyone can have all of these options unless they give up other more traditional class choices in order to gain them.
Good... for a MUD. 
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
If you're interested in this, you might be interested in my mystical disperser prestige class.
Oh, cool, a whole "class" made of dispel magic now. What's next - animate rope?  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 02:29:20
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
You can have two or three? One for mantles, another for spell-fields study [...] Do you really think adding "classes" customized to a single spell or so (like that that "magic missile hurler" thing) are a very good idea?
Hells yeah, the versatility this adds...
Sorry, do you agree with the first or the last? Because mentioning "versatility" suggest the former, but context latter.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
versus a bland abjurer.
"Better than nothing" isn't exactly a mark of great stuff. IMHO.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
The idea here is for the spellcaster who is very much into preparation.
As compared to... uh... what... every viable user of Vancian magic ever?
quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
Sorry, I didn't know Sleyvas had designer street cred. So do you have any ideas how
southern magic might be different that northern magic
AD&D version had "Read Southern Magic" requirement. But essentially, it just needs some of implicit elements of 3e wizard to be made explicit. Much the same thing as we'd need to have schools of thaumaturgy translated any better than "take 3 levels in generalist, then..." prestige classes and spell requirements for artificiers - which more often than not kills the whole point of having a different approach.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Another such "broken" spell was rainbow shield from Seven Sisters (a 4th lvl spell that stored a retributive 3rd lvl spell that affected anyone attacking the rainbow shield wearer), especially broken when combined with cure spells (i.e. the spellcaster lets his compatriots punch him for a single point of damage and then they're cured).
So true. Rainbow shield is cool, but needs something like one more reasonable limitation. I'd say either "area affecting spell" or "Evocation" would do, as examples were fireball and lightning bolt.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, what was the fix? "Hanging" spells became item creation feats (like attune gem, craft contingent spell, tattoo spell, etc...) and metamagic feats like persistence enabled the creation of "personal shields".
Yeah. Clumsy. But working. But clumsy.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
This new one instead focus on hanging protections which can be readily raised. One class is more offensive, the other is more defensive... but both delve into similar mysteries.
So, not everyone can have all of these options unless they give up other more traditional class choices in order to gain them.
Good... for a MUD.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
If you're interested in this, you might be interested in my mystical disperser prestige class.
Oh, cool, a whole "class" made of dispel magic now. What's next - animate rope?
Sorry, but intermixing all of this and responding line by line would be a pain, so I'll just answer in a stream. My hells yeah was in response to "do you really think a class like this would be worth it". Considering going 5 lvls as a wizard gets you a feat, this gives more versatility than that feat ever will.
The remark about a bland abjurer is that so many people go "I need protection, so I'll make an abjurer"... and then when you start looking at spells, most protections fall from 3 schools (abjuration, transmutation, and illusion). This class is aimed at versatility and doesn't shunt you toward any one school for your mantles or your contingencies (and in fact, not even towards any specific specialization, as other specialists who want some protections would do well with this class).
As to the preparation piece, most people never think past 3 or 4 spells on themselves. However, there's some of us out there who actually find an interest in preparation to extremes. For those, I think they'd enjoy this class (someone like Leurocian Malnagrane would enjoy it). If that's not your cup of tea, its not your cup of tea.
As to the mystical disperser... being able to have up your wardings and assault people while within an anti-magic field is a very useful thing if you are a hunter of wizards, priests, psions, etc.... Given that a standard wizard would have gained only 2 feats in that time... I'd say the handoff is more than adequate. However, the mystical disperser is more of a one-trick pony, similar to argent savant and the prestige class that focuses on prismatic magic. The arcane transformist and mantle bearer are much more versatile. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2390 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2012 : 10:21:15
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
My hells yeah was in response to "do you really think a class like this would be worth it". Considering going 5 lvls as a wizard gets you a feat, this gives more versatility than that feat ever will.
5? Nothing says anything spellcasting-related must come from bonus feats - if a character meets the prerequisites.
But originally (Secrets of the Magister) gem-less Imaskari / Netherese mantles were spells of what, 6 level and up?..
Conversely, a basic Cormanthan gem mantle gives great advantages to the low-level user (extra 1+3 automatical or act-of-will spells/day? at the first level?), so why not to learn this right at 1-st level, if one is so much into this?  I mean, if hit points allow, hehehe.
Other than that - well, yeah, feats are rather unwieldy, not quite hot news. This doesn't somehow make classes built around one gimmick each "versatile" any more than existence of plants somehow makes slugs "fast runners". Nope, a taller-than-average dwarf still isn't a giant.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As to the preparation piece, most people never think past 3 or 4 spells on themselves. However, there's some of us out there who actually find an interest in preparation to extremes. For those, I think they'd enjoy this class (someone like Leurocian Malnagrane would enjoy it). If that's not your cup of tea, its not your cup of tea.
This, admittedly, raises "some of us" above the equally faceless masses of "most people" - but doesn't answer the simple question about how Vancian magic as such is not supposed to be for a "spellcaster who is very much into preparation".
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Given that a standard wizard would have gained only 2 feats in that time... [...] However, the mystical disperser is more of a one-trick pony, similar to argent savant and the prestige class that focuses on prismatic magic.
Exactly. So how an one-trick pony class is a good idea?
Classes like Elemental Savant, Ardent Savant and Geometer were attempts to translate 2e/PO goodness - mostly failing due to, again, having to use bad mechanics unsuited for this. It's really easy to see if you read e.g. Spells & Magic - note that it was written by the same designer as Complete Arcane.
And "Level 7: Smash It With Pickaxe x2, Sing Hey-Ho" classes are just that: slightly better than an empty place. So if you want to add something anyway, what's the point of carefully preserving the general clumsiness while calling this "versatility"?
A half-good research/improvement mechanics ("want to learn how to do X with this spell?..") would be incomparably better than a pile of 100 specific one-spell classes, and capable of replacing 99 of them. And so on.
But just for the sake of versatility? The "skill tricks" mechanics from Complete Scoundrel is already here to fill the spaces that blocky feats and single-gimmick classes miss. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 30 Sep 2012 16:48:44 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 30 Sep 2012 : 17:31:47
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
My hells yeah was in response to "do you really think a class like this would be worth it". Considering going 5 lvls as a wizard gets you a feat, this gives more versatility than that feat ever will.
5? Nothing says anything spellcasting-related must come from bonus feats - if a character meets the prerequisites.
But originally (Secrets of the Magister) gem-less Imaskari / Netherese mantles were spells of what, 6 level and up?..
Conversely, a basic Cormanthan gem mantle gives great advantages to the low-level user (extra 1+3 automatical or act-of-will spells/day? at the first level?), so why not to learn this right at 1-st level, if one is so much into this? I mean, if hit points allow, hehehe.
Other than that - well, yeah, feats are rather unwieldy, not quite hot news. This doesn't somehow make classes built around one gimmick each "versatile" any more than existence of plants somehow makes slugs "fast runners". Nope, a taller-than-average dwarf still isn't a giant.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
As to the preparation piece, most people never think past 3 or 4 spells on themselves. However, there's some of us out there who actually find an interest in preparation to extremes. For those, I think they'd enjoy this class (someone like Leurocian Malnagrane would enjoy it). If that's not your cup of tea, its not your cup of tea.
This, admittedly, raises "some of us" above the equally faceless masses of "most people" - but doesn't answer the simple question about how Vancian magic as such is not supposed to be for a "spellcaster who is very much into preparation".
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Given that a standard wizard would have gained only 2 feats in that time... [...] However, the mystical disperser is more of a one-trick pony, similar to argent savant and the prestige class that focuses on prismatic magic.
Exactly. So how an one-trick pony class is a good idea?
Classes like Elemental Savant, Ardent Savant and Geometer were attempts to translate 2e/PO goodness - mostly failing due to, again, having to use bad mechanics unsuited for this. It's really easy to see if you read e.g. Spells & Magic - note that it was written by the same designer as Complete Arcane.
And "Level 7: Smash It With Pickaxe x2, Sing Hey-Ho" classes are just that: slightly better than an empty place. So if you want to add something anyway, what's the point of carefully preserving the general clumsiness while calling this "versatility"?
A half-good research/improvement mechanics ("want to learn how to do X with this spell?..") would be incomparably better than a pile of 100 specific one-spell classes, and capable of replacing 99 of them. And so on.
But just for the sake of versatility? The "skill tricks" mechanics from Complete Scoundrel is already here to fill the spaces that blocky feats and single-gimmick classes miss.
For some reason you want to pick a fight... I don't get why. But then, you talk gibberish. You're spouting stuff from secrets of the magister, which was an entirely different ruleset (2nd edition) to try to use for comparison, as if it has any bearing beyond the basic idea. You also apparently don't like Vancian magic and are looking for someone to fight with you over that... whatever, I'm not looking for that.
Then you entirely mixup all 3 of the classes I mention (one of which is NOT about versatility) and try to flub it as some argument to me. The mystic disperser is NOT about versatility, but it is pretty powerful against spellcasters (its great if you're a mage/priest/psion hunter). There's little else out there that's going to give a mage the ability to surround themselves with anti-magic and ward themselves up at the same time. The new mantle bearer class is about versatility because you change it up daily, it doesn't cost all your money in gems, and there's a wide range of spells that work with it.
So, in summation, so far all I've seen is you do is rant and play with smilies. I'll agree to disagree on the matter, because I can't even figure out why you're upset, and we can leave it at that. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Alefian
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 01:23:31
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quote:
As to the preparation piece, most people never think past 3 or 4 spells on themselves. However, there's some of us out there who actually find an interest in preparation to extremes. For those, I think they'd enjoy this class (someone like Leurocian Malnagrane would enjoy it). If that's not your cup of tea, its not your cup of tea.
Sleyvas knows Uncle Leurocian all too well
5e nerfed our former extreme magic ward/buff stacking with concentration rules. I realize this is a 3e design since the post was a few years ago. Very cool stuff Sleyvas!
- Alefian |
Edited by - Alefian on 16 Nov 2015 01:34:49 |
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LordofBones
Master of Realmslore
1483 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2015 : 15:47:47
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| Why do so many abilities revolve around contingent spells when this class's prerequisites don't include the ability to cast contingency or the Craft Contingent Spell feat? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2015 : 02:31:49
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quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones
Why do so many abilities revolve around contingent spells when this class's prerequisites don't include the ability to cast contingency or the Craft Contingent Spell feat?
Spell mantle feat is a prerequisite from Lost Empires of Faerun page 112 , and it has a prerequisite of craft contingent spell (and its useless without it). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2015 : 02:37:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Alefian
quote:
As to the preparation piece, most people never think past 3 or 4 spells on themselves. However, there's some of us out there who actually find an interest in preparation to extremes. For those, I think they'd enjoy this class (someone like Leurocian Malnagrane would enjoy it). If that's not your cup of tea, its not your cup of tea.
Sleyvas knows Uncle Leurocian all too well
5e nerfed our former extreme magic ward/buff stacking with concentration rules. I realize this is a 3e design since the post was a few years ago. Very cool stuff Sleyvas!
- Alefian
I await the day when they introduce a means to perform this magic in 5e. I think they went a good ways to making it HARD to do in 3.5 because you had so few feats to spare. They can do something similar with feats in 5e. Maybe giving you "extra concentration slots" as a feat or something (in fact, I could see a feat like that which gives you several options towards this type of character). The question is whether 5e will see enough optional rules produced that they ever get to this. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2015 : 03:28:25
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Alefian
quote:
As to the preparation piece, most people never think past 3 or 4 spells on themselves. However, there's some of us out there who actually find an interest in preparation to extremes. For those, I think they'd enjoy this class (someone like Leurocian Malnagrane would enjoy it). If that's not your cup of tea, its not your cup of tea.
Sleyvas knows Uncle Leurocian all too well
5e nerfed our former extreme magic ward/buff stacking with concentration rules. I realize this is a 3e design since the post was a few years ago. Very cool stuff Sleyvas!
- Alefian
I await the day when they introduce a means to perform this magic in 5e. I think they went a good ways to making it HARD to do in 3.5 because you had so few feats to spare. They can do something similar with feats in 5e. Maybe giving you "extra concentration slots" as a feat or something (in fact, I could see a feat like that which gives you several options towards this type of character). The question is whether 5e will see enough optional rules produced that they ever get to this.
Well, that just kicked off my technical mind, so I just have to write this idea to "paper". WotC could make a nice little feat called "spell warder" or something similar. It could give the spellcaster 3 "concentration" points, which they could assign to any spell that they have currently running that requires concentration. They could then also give the ability of the feat owner as well to place say up to 2 spells into a contingent status. Thus, the caster might use his own concentration on one spell, cast another defensive spell and use a concentration point, then let two others get contingently released. Feats being as powerful as they are in 5e, I'm thinking this would be pretty fair, but I'd love to see anyone else's input on improvement.
BTW, WotC, I freely offer this concept to you if you'd like to take it and run with it. I only want to see the game grow and become better, and my day job keeps me funded. If you like this concept, please see it into development. I'm betting you can come up with some extra twists as well that I'm not thinking of to make it your own concept. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Mantle Bearer Prestige Class
