| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Jelennet
Learned Scribe
Russia
131 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 02:24:07
|
Some FR books are praising the friendship between people.
I've seen A DM who didn't allow a religious player to play a cleric of Christ bacause (DM said) there is no Christ in FR canon. He seriously risked to lose a friend.
My question: what would you do in the DM place? Lose the friend or allow him to play as he likes?
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 04:07:33
|
That is interesting question. If I was faced by the question it would depend on how much the player intended to bring RL religion into the game.
A DM clearly could have allowed Christ as a Demi God, with not problem, maybe higher rank as well. I though could see many possible problems if player want the deity to be greater the AO. Such a ruling would have to be made of a case by case base. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
 |
|
|
WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
573 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 04:12:15
|
If Christ walks into the Realms, he plays by Realms-rules. That means that he either sub-contracts out those prayers to a deity with whom he doesn't mind affiliating (unlikely, since Christ claims exclusivity), or he's less than quasi-god status (he's only got one follower in this crystal sphere--your player)
In either event, Jesus isn't very much into the whole "granting spells" deal, so I would definitely let him, he would just be the lamest cleric of all time.
|
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
|
|
|
combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 04:52:40
|
I think that a flippant-- or blasphemous-- treatment of the matter would only be more likely to alienate the DM's friend.
A much better approach would be for the DM to inform the player that he does not feel comfortable 'playing God' or prominently featuring a major world religion in a D&D game with a fictional setting. Respect- not mockery. That is how you deal with friends.
|
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 05:10:44
|
| Think I'd have to go with WN on this one, sadly. If a player wants to bring a RW religion into the Realms, then he should expect to deal with any consequences thereof- including having very little clerical power. A player should be able to separate RW faiths from those available in the game. Personally, I'd give him the option of playing a cleric of Ilmater, as he's the closest analog I can think of. Not precisely what the player wants- but something of a compromise. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 05:11:51
|
I wouldn't allow it.
As far as I would be concerned, his RW agenda would threaten the fun of the game.
And BTW, at one point in my life I was seriously considering becoming a Christian Minister (for about 2 years I was really 'into it'), so I don't want people to think I'm some sort of atheist Christ-hater or something. I'd just rather not have those kinds of disruptions at my table. People can believe and act anyway they want RW, but at my table, its my world, and I make the rules.
The only other option I could possibly see is let him play the priest, but don't give him any spells (so his character would be completely nerfed). I would say he was a RW Missionary who accidentally walked through an ancient portal and wound up in the Realms. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 05:52:39
|
| I have devout Christian friends who play D&D and have no problem relating to the imaginary gods and such because they understand the nature of fantasy. I would hope the DM could explain to the prospective player intent on having a Christian PC that the whole point of the game is to exercise one's imagination and have fun doing it. If not, it's probably better if the prospective player doesn't join the group. He's not likely to have any fun even if allowed to run his Christian PC, and his agenda will probably get in the way of everybody else's fun. |
|
|
|
WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
573 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 16:20:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
I think that a flippant-- or blasphemous-- treatment of the matter would only be more likely to alienate the DM's friend.
A much better approach would be for the DM to inform the player that he does not feel comfortable 'playing God' or prominently featuring a major world religion in a D&D game with a fictional setting. Respect- not mockery. That is how you deal with friends.
Simultaneously, I think turning Jesus into a game-God that saves you from orcs instead of from your sins is equally flippant or blasphemous. I'm merely prepared to match the blasphemies that the player already initiated. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
|
|
|
Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 16:25:27
|
| I am with the explain to the friend that this is a fantasy game crowd. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
|
|
|
Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1265 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 16:28:07
|
| Get a new friend. This one sounds like a nutjob if he can't separate an fun RP GAME from real life. |
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 16:32:07
|
| he's called Nobanion in the Realms |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 16:40:22
|
In fairness, the question was posed as an event that occurred in the past and asked how other DMs might handle such a request if a friend wanted to become a player with that deity being allowed in home realms.
I am still happy to stick with it depends, depending on many factors. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 17:13:05
|
First off i am atheist and i do not believe in any "divine entity". That does not mean i can´t have fun playing followers of gods in roleplaying games since that´s the thing such games allow, playing things you are not in real life.
But if someone threatens to "not be your friend anymore" because he apparently was so indoctrinated that if your not "rolling with insert your belief in what ever" your not worthy of his company, that would raise the question if he was really a friend in first place. I´d send him to the next best psychologist to check on his mental health.
I´d personally say have fun but not with the group, but if the group is ok with it and overrules the DM, then the DM can come up with a solution like WalkerNinja said, minimal powers if he gets any at all and he will be the "lone one" in a world full of "heathens" who could care less about his belief.
|
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
|
|
|
Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 17:44:00
|
I'm taking the contrarian view here. I'd allow it with some provisos.
First, there has to be no real world agenda. In other words, this can't be a not-so-cleverly veiled attempt to preach to the other players at the table. No forcing personal religion down other peoples throats. People are playing the game to have fun, not be preached too.
Second, everyone has to be cool with the idea. There is such a huge probability of people being offended. If someone isn't on board, then it doesn't happen.
Third, similar to how WN said - everything has to work by the rules of the Realms. This means the other gods still exist, and are doing their own thing. We're not breaking the setting, we're just adding to it.
If these three things pan out, I'd allow it. It is possible that something like this could conceivably happen, canon allows it. Deities have jumped from our world to the Realms in the past, and there are still some portals linking our world to the Realms. So it is completely possible that a Christian could find themselves in the Realms.
Before the game, we'd have to work out some details. I wouldn't punish the player by basically forcing them to play a cleric without spells. In the Realms magic exists.
What would this game look like? How does it start? How do the players get from the real world to the Realms? These are all questions that need to be answered.
For example, I might start by telling everyone that it's around the year 1253 AD in the real world, roughly a year before the death of Pope Innocent IV. The backstory begins with the discovery of a portal deep below the Vatican (in some formerly sealed off place). The Pope then begins to secretly send through some Knights Templar, some members of a Medieval Inquisition, some priests, and a trusted and loyal friend who is a Cardinal bishop.
Everyone would have to play members of this group coming through the portal. So they'd all have to be affiliated with the Church.
The portal would open on the outskirts of the Woods of Sharp Teeth, near Durlag's Tower. The first part of the campaign would be to try and establish what people from the real world, from that time period, would think when they found themselves in the Realms. How do they react when they encounter their first troll, for example? Is it obviously a demon? What happens when they encounter a wizard? A cleric from another deity (especially a 'good aligned' deity)?
Scouting the area, securing Durlag's Tower as a base of operations, making reports back to the Vatican on their findings, etc. It could be fun, especially if the players kept a journal.
"Day Six in this strange land. Today we encountered another one of the heathens, this one had pointed ears, a sign of his demonic possession. He spoke in a devilish tongue that I could not comprehend, as we retreated back into the woods. He gave chase, but Brother Samuel managed to lure him into one of the traps we had set. He attempted to use witchcraft to free himself, further proving his pact with the dark forces of this world. I removed the offending corrupted ears to use as a sign to any others that the glory of the Almighty is strong - even in this forsaken place. Father Hammond read him his last rights as Brother Samuel tied him to the stake to be burned for his crimes."
Obviously, they would not be able to speak the common tongue, so they would struggle to communicate with anyone. And even if they could... would they believe them? Would they care?
After the Tower was secure, and reports are made to the Pope, I'd probably have more Templars and stuff show up. A march on Nashkel would take place, followed by a forced conversion of its surviving citizens. This would arouse various forces in the region, and begin a war in earnest. The Battle of Beregost is likely when they'd first face major resistance... and from that point forward things would just continue progressing however the game goes.
Can the Christians establish a foothold in the Realms, and establish the faith of the One True God while suppressing worship of all the other deities? How will they deal with those who use arcane magic? What about items crafted by arcane magic?
I think it could potentially be a lot of fun. I'd use the Bible as a source book, and we could really go Old Testament on the Realms. Baldur's Gate refuses to acknowledge the Almighty? A message must be sent... so we crack open the Bible and look for some curses to be laid down (via a ritual). And they get all Deuteronomy 28:15-68 (Curse of Disobedience) on the people of Baldur's Gate. 
quote:
Curse of Disobedience
You call forth a mighty curse from the One True God. He sends forth locusts and worms to eat all that your enemies attempt to harvest. He curses their wombs, and the wombs of their livestock to be barren. He shall strike madness into their minds, and cover their bodies with boils and tumors. They shall be driven to cannibalism, forcing them to eat their own children.
In exchange you shall march forth with your armies to oppress and rob them daily, ravage their wives, and take their possessions; for it is decreed by the Almighty that this shall be the punishment for disobedience. You shall kill all who do not submit to the Lord and leave their corpses to be picked at by the birds.
That's pretty much how that game would end up rolling, I think. With them calling forth Old Testament fire and brimstone, and forcing citizens of the Realms to convert or else... well pretty much a replay of what went down in real life plus magic.
Obviously, some people might be offended by playing that type of game. However, with the right players it wouldn't be an issue. Anyone who has played a game set in an Alternate Earth setting has had to deal with real world religions before - this would be no different. The only real difference is that in those settings they're generally low fantasy, and the Realms is high fantasy so the powers of the divine would have to be scaled up accordingly. (Like the Curse of Disobedience above.)
We've also dealt with similar issues as the above when it came to Maztica and Helm. And like I said; deities from our world have crossed over into the Realms before, and it's established canon that portals from the real world and the FR exist. So, this could technically be done without breaking canon.
So long as everyone was on board, shared the same vision for the type of game we were going to play (like the above), and there wasn't anyone at the table with an agenda - I wouldn't really have a problem with it. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 18:58:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
he's called Nobanion in the Realms
NICE. 
As I said, I consider myself a Christian (although I have MANY unorthodox views), and have many Christian friends (as in, go-to-church-almost-every-night Christian), and there are certain topics we do not discuss (thus far, D&D has never been brought up).
That being said, I think such a person wanting to put Jesus in an RPG would have an agenda. Would that same person want to be Jesus in Monopoly? (You could use one of those little dashboard-Jesus' for your piece). Do they want to build churches instead of houses? Cathedrals instead of Hotels?
When they play Risk, do they want to reenact the Inquisition?
If not, then why do they want the rules (of FR) to change so that they can get a preaching 'attack of opportunity'? And when told "no", they would end a RW friendship over it? Guess what... if that is true, they were never a real friend to begin with. They were just trying to 'save your soul' (and everyone else you play with). They are trying to use your favorite hobby against you, to correct what they feel is 'aberrant behavior'.
This is all just my opinion, but I've played this game for a LONG time, with lots and lots of very different people, including what I would consider 'good Christians'. I think I know a 'trouble maker' when I see one, from a mile away.
|
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 08 Sep 2012 : 20:12:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
I think that a flippant-- or blasphemous-- treatment of the matter would only be more likely to alienate the DM's friend.
A much better approach would be for the DM to inform the player that he does not feel comfortable 'playing God' or prominently featuring a major world religion in a D&D game with a fictional setting. Respect- not mockery. That is how you deal with friends.
Simultaneously, I think turning Jesus into a game-God that saves you from orcs instead of from your sins is equally flippant or blasphemous. I'm merely prepared to match the blasphemies that the player already initiated.
That shows a combative attitude towards the player, which I doubt would go over well. The player isn't the enemy. He's a friend of the DM and is at the table to have fun, not to be mocked. 'Matching blasphemies' is a bad idea if the DM wants to remain friends with this player.
Politely and firmly explaining the DM's position is likely to work much better.
All of the advice above is based on my experiences, as a DM and as someone with friends of various religious backgrounds. YMMV, as it seems to do.
|
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
|
|
|
WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
573 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 03:08:46
|
Yeah, but I'm an internet tough guy.  |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
Edited by - WalkerNinja on 09 Sep 2012 03:09:17 |
|
|
|
combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 03:59:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
Yeah, but I'm an internet tough guy.
Are you? I hadn't noticed.
|
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
|
|
|
MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 18:55:42
|
| There is no Christ in the forgotten realms. If someone is going to be that ridiculous I don't think I would care about losing them as a friend. Ilmatar seems close to Christian mythology (although presumably this person would not consider it mythology...) |
|
|
|
Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 09 Sep 2012 : 19:03:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
he's called Nobanion in the Realms
Actually that wouldn't work, the perfect parallel to Christ in the Realms is clearly Ilmater. |
|
|
|
Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 02:52:49
|
Hmm, while my first reaction would be to forbid it, there might be some interesting elements to be exploited. If the player provided a solid backstory that promised interesting development, why not? It all depend on the reason I guess. If the reason is to preach his RL beliefs in-game, then no.
That being said, a fantasy game should probably remain as separated from RL as possible.
I also believe that Ilmater would be a perfect fit for a Christ equivalent. |
|
|
|
MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 04:03:35
|
| You could also just ignore canon and add Christianity into the realms. |
|
|
|
combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 06:15:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
he's called Nobanion in the Realms
Actually that wouldn't work, the perfect parallel to Christ in the Realms is clearly Ilmater.
Both Nobanian and Ilmater are based on literary characters. Ed Greenwood made that very clear in Down to Earth Divinity.
Ilmater is based on Issek of the Jug, a creation of Fritz Lieber. Was Lieber's Issek inspired in part by Christian marytrs? Sure, but only in a vague sort of way. I don't see much evidence for him having been inspired directly by Christ. Nehwon's mythology is very, very different from the Christian worldview. Issek is a god,and a minor one at that, not the God.
Nobanion was based on Aslan.
SPOILER ALERT FOR NARNIA BOOKS-- DON'T READ IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE BOOKS YET
..............
...............
.........................
Aslan is portrayed as a Christlike figure in Narnia. The books do strongly imply that he is actually Christ by another name. Aslan tells the Pevensie children that in their world they know him by another name.
Here's the important part: Nobanion is not the 'real' Aslan He can't be, as Ed Greenwood isn't C S Lewis and the Realms is not Narnia.
Greenwood took the idea of a noble lion god and used it-- but he did not recreate the religious subtext of the Narnia books in FR.
|
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 10 Sep 2012 06:25:34 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 08:00:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
You could also just ignore canon and add Christianity into the realms.
True, but that would be a lot of work changing things just to accommodate one player, and if that player wants to be accommodated that much, then you have to ask yourself, "at what point does it stop?"
If the DM stands to lose control of his game - or worse, his other players are feeling neglected by how much time he has to spend making the one guy's character concept work - then its really not worth it at all. Its just a game for people to have some fun with, and this 'request' really doesn't feel like that guy gets that part. His 'fun' stands to detract from others enjoyment of the game. Jesus Christ just isn't a very good fit for The Forgotten Realms. What if he demands you follow his canon (which he would have right to do, if you were allowing him to worship the actual Jesus in the Realms)? He stands to be too powerful (being a priest of an all-powerful God), or be under-powered (if you give him no spells). You can't just run him like an ordinary cleric (you could, but then you'd have a Christian Priest using magic, which is against their own CoC).
Back in the day when I played Chivalry & Sorcery, my GM was amazing, and the world was based on real medieval Europe, and we did have the Christian church (they called a Crusade against the Drow). That was a different system (designed to simulate medieval Europe and the church) and a different setting, so it worked, and was a lot of fun. D&D is not C&S. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 10 Sep 2012 08:05:28 |
|
|
|
Thrasymachus
Learned Scribe
195 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 08:39:37
|
I dealt with this admining a NWN server: Player insisted that his deity field (which was readable by all other players) be filled in with "Jesus".
Now that community had maybe 100+ peeps, and I knew I wasn't going to get a 100% buy in because one of the players complained about it in the first place, so it wasn't really only my gaming table per se.
I suggested to the player that the game was like improvisational acting that is authentic to the setting. If one were a civil war reenactor you wouldn't dress up as a clown, or an astronaut... right?
Now if it were my gaming table I still wouldn't have been into that. I like DMing and roleplaying the Realms with their fictional gods.
And of course what you do at your game table is your business.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Think I'd have to go with WN on this one, sadly. If a player wants to bring a RW religion into the Realms, then he should expect to deal with any consequences thereof- including having very little clerical power. A player should be able to separate RW faiths from those available in the game. Personally, I'd give him the option of playing a cleric of Ilmater, as he's the closest analog I can think of. Not precisely what the player wants- but something of a compromise.
What happened to diversity?
Real Life Races... big push
Real Life Religon... not so much?  |
Former Forgotten Realms brand manager Jim Butler: "Everything that bears the Forgotten Realms logo is considered canon". |
Edited by - Thrasymachus on 10 Sep 2012 08:44:39 |
|
|
|
combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 11:17:57
|
I use a number of pseudo-Christian (Medieval period Catholic Church, mostly) trappings or stylstic elements in my current D&D tabletop game. The major religious traditions are all more or less monotheistic, even the baddies. There's a wee bit of Buddhist influence too, if you peer closely. Nothing close enough to real religions to offend any reasonable person.
The Supreme Being/Creator/Overgod doesn't grant spells or get much involved in mortal affairs in a direct fashion. Spells come from saints, demons,nature spirits, etc.
I deliberately did not use the Trinity, the Incarnation, or other specific Christian doctrines. |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
|
|
|
Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 14:09:52
|
| I might be misspelling the name, but I have always thought of Illmater as the Christ figure in Fr. I would first ask the player if he minded seeing that god in that light, as bringing a real world religion into the game might cause problems for other players. There is a diplomatic and a non-diplomatic way to handle everything. If he was determined to go with it anyway, then I'd have to think about it and talk to the other players about it, since it's an FR campaign. It's not the issue of Christ granting his followers spells/miracles, but the fact that there is no real mythos for him being there. Being monotheistic is one thing, being a follower of Christ is another. I say this as a Christian, and can understand the implications of what my faith entails. I've had several Fr characters be followers of Illimater and Ao, to best fit into a monotheistic framework. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11696 Posts |
Posted - 10 Sep 2012 : 21:05:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Jelennet
Some FR books are praising the friendship between people.
I've seen A DM who didn't allow a religious player to play a cleric of Christ bacause (DM said) there is no Christ in FR canon. He seriously risked to lose a friend.
My question: what would you do in the DM place? Lose the friend or allow him to play as he likes?
To put it succinctly, I wouldn't be friends who would be pushing that they want to bring real world religion into games in the first place. Not a bias mind you, just I don't see any of my friends even remotely wanting to do this BECAUSE of what it would imply. Not that my friends aren't religious (one is a practicing Catholic who goes to church every Sunday.... but he'd never play a priest), but they understand the fact that you don't mix real world religion or politics with a game. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 07:27:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Thrasymachus
I dealt with this admining a NWN server: Player insisted that his deity field (which was readable by all other players) be filled in with "Jesus".
Now that community had maybe 100+ peeps, and I knew I wasn't going to get a 100% buy in because one of the players complained about it in the first place, so it wasn't really only my gaming table per se.
I suggested to the player that the game was like improvisational acting that is authentic to the setting. If one were a civil war reenactor you wouldn't dress up as a clown, or an astronaut... right?
Now if it were my gaming table I still wouldn't have been into that. I like DMing and roleplaying the Realms with their fictional gods.
And of course what you do at your game table is your business.
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Think I'd have to go with WN on this one, sadly. If a player wants to bring a RW religion into the Realms, then he should expect to deal with any consequences thereof- including having very little clerical power. A player should be able to separate RW faiths from those available in the game. Personally, I'd give him the option of playing a cleric of Ilmater, as he's the closest analog I can think of. Not precisely what the player wants- but something of a compromise.
What happened to diversity?
Real Life Races... big push
Real Life Religon... not so much?
I'm all for religious diversity in the Realms, too, even some RL ones(Tyr, anyone? Isis, Ra, and Hathor? Meilikki?)- but we're talking about opening up a HUGE can of worms here, all for the sake of one player? At my table, he'd either accept the conditions stated above, or simply not play. I'd let him sit in on a game or two, just so he'd get the idea of what it's like, (and I've done this before with newbies) but I would not completely alter the game or setting just to make him happy at the expense of my other players. NAMT. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 17:31:41
|
This is a subject I've had to deal with over the years in running Earth/Realms 'Play Yourself' crossover games. What to do with the players for whom their faith is such an important part of who they are that they take it along with them to the Realms?
Let me start by saying this, as those who follow Ed's writings on the origins of the Realms know, EARTH AND THE REALMS WERE ALWAYS MEANT TO BE LINKED. Here's Ed over at the Wizard's website as recently as last week on the subject:
"It was called that because I envisaged many parallel worlds (in later D&D terms, “alternate Prime Material Planes”) linked by magical gates (what later editions of the game call “portals”) existing side by side, as it were. Our real world was closely linked to Mirt’s world, but in recent centuries most of the gates had been destroyed, had come under guard and so were no longer open to free passage, or literally forgotten. So the formerly close-by existence of this parallel world accounted for our legends of dragons and magic and so on, but we had “forgotten” the way to get to those realms. Hence, our real world wasn’t full of flying dragons and wizards that could blast them down, and the world that still held such things was “the Forgotten Realms.” Michael Moorcock is usually credited with first using the term “multiverse” in fiction, but the concept is much, much older; I first encountered it (developed beyond the old folktale and fairytale treatments of “fairyland” being linked to our real world) in The Wood Beyond The World by William Morris, published in 1894 (C.S. Lewis borrowed the idea for Narnia, calling it, as I did in the early days for the Realms, “the Wood Between The Worlds”)."
When you view your game in that context you come to understand that this concept is one that has been grappled with before in the history of the Realms, and yet there is no organized 'Christian Church' in existence on Toril. Why? Well, you can look to both the purpose for the separation between the worlds and previous similar Realms events for guidance.
First, as Ed points out, wizards, dragons, magic and the like may have once existed openly on Earth, but now they don't. Instead they have been largely confined to the Realms (and other worlds). This reminds me of a series of novels by Weiss and Hickman, the Darksword Trilogy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darksword). There a world was created within the same universe as Earth, but walled off from it by the gods, where magic and magical creatures thrived. Presumably the gods had their reasons for doing something similar to the Realms (much as they had their reasons for all of the Sunderings we are grappling with at the moment) and so you've got to deal with those when considering this request.
Given that there ARE portals and there ARE visitors back and forth to both worlds, what are the meta rules for keeping the chocolate out of the peanut butter and vice versa? I've whipped up a set that says basically: 1) Toril has magic at it's volume and intensity because it has a Weave/Mystra (yes I get the issues there during the Spellplague period...) and Earth has almost none because it doesn't. 2) The gods of Toril, many of whom once came from Earth (go pantheon cruising in 1E or 2E and you'll find TONS), made a pact with Ao that they would continue to exist/function as gods by abandoning any claim to Earth and moving to Toril. This allowed the various remaining religions of Earth to gobble up worshippers in their absence. 3) Earth faith operates on a very different set of rules than Realms faith (more on the impact of this later) - on Earth 'faith' and 'free will' are much more central to religious life than they are in a place like the Realms and thus God himself has chosen to show his hand through miracles and magic ONLY in as much as absolutely needed to communicate his existence to mortals. No spell wielding priests, no daily magic to keep the faithful in line or impress the locals. You have to be prepared to sign on to team God based on faith alone.
So, if you choose to look at the history of the Realms and setup rules of that sort, you get an answer of: you can worship Jesus all you like, but that doesn't mean you get spells! After all, such ostentatious displays of power are explicitly against God's credo. If the Pope doesn't have them, why should you? Are you Moses or something (well maybe you can be, but that opens up another sort of game story line entirely! Lol)?
That fits nicely with the Realms own method of dealing with the power of 'overgods'. That is the 'Ao worship' situation that developed in the wake of the Time of Troubles. Cults to Ao popped up here and there (as they logically would in the wake of such a revelation), but they ended up falling away because, for whatever meta reason, Ao doesn't grant spells like other gods. So, you have a perfect example of how the Realms rules handle such situations.
Frankly, the only way worship of God makes sense in the Realms is through a cross worlds game of the sort I run or of the sort that Aldrick does an EXCELLENT job of laying the groundwork for (nice work good sir, do you own all the 2E fantasy history 'Green Books'? If not, you should pick them up, you'd love them!). If your friend really wants to play someone who is faithful to Christ, and your other players are down to try a historical portal or Play Yourself game I say you let him. However, apply the 'Rules of the Realms' and make him understand that, unless he thinks he's got prophet status, he's going to have to understand that worshipping God on the Realms is it's own reward (the same way it is here on Earth) for simple theological (and game balance!) issues.
A final word on religion and Play Yourself games. I've been running games of this sort for twenty years, and for the last few I have noticed a new trend developing as my newer players have stopped being around my age and have gotten to be around ten years younger than me. At first, pretty much everyone in my games was a Christian (or a Jew) and handled faith in the Realms with a 'those gods aren't real, so I'll treat them like I do archmages, powerful sure, but not worthy of worship'. They quietly kept to their faiths, didn't expect miracles, didn't try to play clerics, and paid for their healing from the locals as if they were visiting the doctor's office. Lately however, I have had a wave of 'atheist' or (more generally) 'agnostic' players. I'll leave off the social commentary about the decline of faith in the Western World, and simply note that, for the first time, I've had players who did NOT believe in God on Earth become 'religious' after arriving on the Realms. When I bewilderingly asked them why, they generally replied, "well on the Realms these deities are 'real' and willing to give me power and act directly to support me and their faithful in life, so it seems fair to help them out." Logical, if a bit odd to me. It has proved to be an interesting trend none the less (as weird as is it is to an old Catholic such as myself).
|
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
|
|
|
Captain Grafalcon
Learned Scribe
Brazil
129 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 19:00:12
|
| It´s quite complex...Jesus is on the Realms too ? If yes, then the player must be aware that his god is under a set of rules, created by Ao, an Overgod that is not good nor evil, but balanced.Sometimes the game could become a little "forced",since Chistianism is monotheistic, but that is just my opinion,if everyone in the table is ok, why not? |
"Surely you recognize that armies carrying banners are almost always thieves—until they win."
Jarlaxle, mercenary leader of Bregan D'aerthe. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Friendship and rules
