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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 05:03:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As for why we don't have one? Efficiency - we have portals/gates all over the place, so the need for this was never warranted.
Not only that, but it would require a degree of cooperation between connected nations to set up and maintain this, and there simply is not enough of a need to motivate those nations.
And let's not forget the major element of EBERRON's Lightning Rail that is required for such similarly-themed transportation to be reproduced in the Realms -- Dragonshards.
Without such artifacts, a Realms-based Lightning Rail would require an equivalent that goes beyond the simple dynamics of elemental binding.
What's the need for dragonshards when Faerunian mages can craft something far more superior? They can create some sort of mini-mythallar to power it, or use it to bind the elementals.
I don't think we've ever seen any kind of mythallar in the Realms allow for the type of "fine movement and control" as the elemental-bound vehicles of EBERRON have displayed. So I really don't see that working as an alternative to Dragonshard-powered movement in the Realms.
Elemental-binding would seem to be a successive technique, and one that could be expanded... if a suitable Realms-equivalent could be determined.
...
The skyships of Halruaa are certainly agile, and highly manoeuvrable to a degree, but they're not the result of mythallar-powered movement. So there might be an alternative for adapting the functioning of the skyships to a land-based mechanism of movement. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 05:06:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Houses Orien and Cannith are getting large profits out of it. So I don't see why it can't work that way among Realmsians. It's a matter of management and getting the right people to do the job.
There's one major stumbling block. The Dragonmarked Houses of EBERRON have a long and established tradition of working together to help produce such services for the people of Khorvaire. There is no similarly-structured period of cooperation between trade-houses/nations in the Realms.
As I mentioned, it doesn't have to operate in an international scale. Local operation, though may not yield as much profits, can still be established just fine.
And the operation would quickly, and likely, find itself bankrupt.
For something like this to work, and remain working reliably, it needs to be highly profitable given the amount of technology, "magical science," and labour, it would require to maintain such a rail-network across the Realms. International is the ONLY way to make it profitable. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 05:07:27
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Possible, yes, but not likely.
Particularly since Ed's few railways (mining lines) were removed from the published Realms to be saved for a higher-tech setting (Eberron, when it came along later), just as Ed's heraldry was downplayed/not published because that was "too Greyhawk."
So Ed's Realms had very-short-line railways, but you've never seen them in print, and probably never will.
love,
THO
Could either you or Ed provide some further insight/lore about these railways in the home Realms campaigns? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 05:17:53
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I would imagine they were very similar to the earliest railways built here on earth, which grew out of the 'mining car' style of rail (which modern rollercoasters also came form).
Something like this might help. It is a huge and fascinating subject.
My fantasy locomotives look like that pic I posted earlier (of the novel cover) - I like them looking like dragons, not as futuristic as the Eberron trains.
And I was talking about real-world military uses for trains. You want to base a fantasy railway on another fantasy railway, thats like asking the tooth fairy for an autograph of Santa.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 05:30:37
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Houses Orien and Cannith are getting large profits out of it. So I don't see why it can't work that way among Realmsians. It's a matter of management and getting the right people to do the job.
There's one major stumbling block. The Dragonmarked Houses of EBERRON have a long and established tradition of working together to help produce such services for the people of Khorvaire. There is no similarly-structured period of cooperation between trade-houses/nations in the Realms.
As I mentioned, it doesn't have to operate in an international scale. Local operation, though may not yield as much profits, can still be established just fine.
And the operation would quickly, and likely, find itself bankrupt.
I don't think so. We simply just have to agree to disagree. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 05:33:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You want to base a fantasy railway on another fantasy railway...
Authors borrow ideas from other authors, regardless of genre. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 05:42:06
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If I'm recalling a particular issue of Dragon Magazine correctly, there are links between Realmspace and Eberron through the World Serpent Inn (Arabel --> World Serpent --> a flower shop in Aundair), and I think there was also a possible adventure hook for including Warforged in the Realms somewhere else that was described as "Thayan wizard goes on planar jaunt, comes back and starts making Warforged" (or something similar). So it's theoretically possible, depending on how one rules the World Serpent Inn, that a FR wizard could have traveled to Eberron, seen the Lightning Rail and their methods of creation (they may even snag a couple of dragonshards to bring back home with them for analysis to determine a suitable alternate material), and made notes.
I don't know if this would hold up in the canon/published Realms or in Ed's home games, but for the individual GM, it's a possibility.
Personally, I'm looking at the possibility of certain mages in the Border Kingdoms (Iraun and Srivven, specifically) working on a version of it to prepare for an expansionist war against their neighbouring areas, quickly transporting construct forces across their kingdom. They originally wanted it so they could get all the produce they needed where they wanted it to go as fast as possible, and then one of them hit upon the idea of using it to expand their interests (currently, they're looking to build further rails, but the other kingdoms in the region are very nervous of the idea, because they can see the strategic implications and are willing to destroy any attempt made to use it in that fashion).
It might be interesting if the PCs ever make it down there* (since they'll have to choose between helping blow up bridges and the like or trying to take and use the idea for good; the idea needs a bit of work, but the basics are there). I think Adaerglast, as a fertile area and the "jewel" of the Border Kingdoms (I think it's described as such in some places), along with the highly defended nature of it through the spellwebs and similar that the two archmages have set up, could be an interesting spot to build from.
Again, that's just me. It's something that definitely has real potential to shake up the status quo in the Border Kingdoms and elsewhere, and it does it without yet another RSE cluttering things up.
* They have an odd attraction to the very worst taverns in Waterdeep, even though they could afford the best inns in the city without much trouble. Be treated like a king? No, they'd rather sleep in their cloaks, in a shadowy corner of a tavern Volo wouldn't even rate at one star, and keep their eyes open for a shiny new magic sword instead. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 05:57:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You want to base a fantasy railway on another fantasy railway...
Authors borrow ideas from other authors, regardless of genre.
I know this - if you read my last few posts, you will see me comparing nearly everything I did with other settings.
What I meant was, you need not justify putting a train in FR if you want one, just because Eberron has one. You do it because you want to - you don't need a precedent. Its fantasy.
And I put a train in D&D (and pushed the FR timeline ahead a century) long before TSR/WotC ever did.
You are arguing pro, so you are using Eberron as an example. I was arguing why it doesn't make as much sense in FR, based on RW examples. Eberron is more steampunk - they are a world/age which ours never went through (mixing magic with tech). Getting 'common folks' around was never really a big concern of world leaders, unitl the American Northwest. It was always based on military and trade. No-one really cared much if regular folk were inconvenienced until the 19th century or so. The Eberronese built trains so the 'common man' (and demi-human) could get around - I'm just not seeing much call for that in FR. Guilds/trade consortiums have not yet risen to the power-level of gov't yet in the Realms.
They try, but it doesn't work out too well (like the Iron Throne). The Zhents were probably the most successful at this, but they were a gov't sponsored trade consortium, kinda like how trade was mostly sponsored/financed by nobility in our world up until about the 19th century. Mass transportation only becomes feasible after the rise of the middle class, when companies began running the world.
In fact, the last thing folks wanted before that - back in the days of serfs, slaves, and indentured servants - was for common folk to be able to 'get away' quickly. The landowners wanted workers to stay on the land, not move away. Trains and the 'pioneer spirit' changed all that. Who is Cormyr building the train for? Adventurers?
But I still love choo-choos, so go for it.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Aug 2012 06:01:19 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 06:00:43
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
For something like this to work, and remain working reliably, it needs to be highly profitable given the amount of technology, "magical science," and labour, it would require to maintain such a rail-network across the Realms. International is the ONLY way to make it profitable.
Eldacar presented a scenario that could work.
FR mages are way advanced in terms of spellcraft compared to Eberron's dragonmarked magic-users. So I think they could figure out a better alternative to power a train. Maybe a dragon-size construct to pull it. Heck, the coaches themselves could be the constructs, connected to each other. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 06:04:50
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A golemic automaton - thats what mine were. The ones in that novel were specially bred dragons, but I thought that was kinda stupid (not Rose Estes' idea - she was just writing a novel based on a game, and the book itself wasn't half bad).
So I just said the were golems, shaped like locomotives, that looked a bit like dragons.
You know why trains have that scoop-thing on the front? To 'move' cows off the tracks. In FR that would the 'orc pusher'. 
Google 'fantasy train' and look under images for some pretty decent examples. I think I found the Netherese Line. The Steampunk-looking ones don't really work for FR, but the more fantasyish ones do.
Maybe in 5e, we'll see the Lantanese Trans-Planetary Railroad. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Aug 2012 06:13:35 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 06:09:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Eberron is more steampunk...
I suppose this is the reason. WotC seems to strive to differentiate the individual worlds of D&D. Anything remotely modern-ish might never be introduced to the Realms... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 06:15:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You know why trains have that scoop-thing on the front? To 'move' cows off the tracks. In FR that would the 'orc pusher'.
Most orcs are wild and stupid, with emphasis on the latter. I doubt even the horn-like structure protruding on the front would deter them from attacking if they set their mind into it. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 06:17:02
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3e FR was supposed to have guns - 2e FR did.
Someone must have realized that they wanted a different setting for that stuff, so it was cancelled in mainstream/FR D&D. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Aug 2012 06:17:57 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 06:20:12
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2E did? Was it also introduced in novels? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 06:51:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
In pre-Netheril time, an ordinary folk might have been branded crazy if he thought that there's a way to make ships fly.
You know, I think something like a Lightening Rail could have existed in old Netheril.
For the modern, post-Spellplague Realms, I’d wager there is certainly enough trade to support any sort of expedited system of delivery, however I’d be hesitant to accept the idea that the big powers (including here dragons and what they consider their territories) would leave something like this unmolested for long—though I doubt most would object to something like this being built (at least at the outset).
Unlike a few other scribes, I do think something like this could work on a small-scale, especially if a local mage or psion (one, perhaps, with some knowledge of Eberron) discovered crystals or other foci that were in plenty in the land where a lightening rail or similar might later be built.
In the Realms, if someone does something successfully, others will get word and either try to replicate it or destroy. Sounds like good fodder for an adventure to me. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 02 Aug 2012 06:59:34 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 07:04:47
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| Hrm...did the gnomes of Lantan ever come up with something like this? Or any other kind of people mover? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 08:48:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Hrm...did the gnomes of Lantan ever come up with something like this? Or any other kind of people mover?
I seem to remember a story in the GHotR about Elminster sending Storm down to Lantan because the gnomes had developed some giant moving cannon-thing powered by what seemed to be steam.
I've lost my copy of GHotR, though, so I can't remember any details.
quote:
Who is Cormyr building the train for? Adventurers?
No, they're building it so those adventurers can have exciting traintop battles.
Which is why Keith Baker created the Lightning Rail for Eberron in the first place, if I'm recalling my designer commentary correctly. Its existence is predicated on the Rule Of Cool. |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 15:34:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
2E did? Was it also introduced in novels?
Yes.
It happened during (or immediately after) the Avatar Crisis. It may have been in Prince of Lies. Strangely, they started out a bit more advanced then our RW guns did, but we have to understand that some Torillians had seen them before - they exist in SJ (and on other worlds).
Rules for them appeared in Forgotten Realms Adventures, which was the first book to update the 1e setting to 2e. The only 3e mention I am aware of is in Elminster's Daughter, where Elminster finds a wand built "like a gunne, in the Gondsman style" (or something very close to that). The wand itself was built by Vangerdehast, and El was a bit annoyed that he had taken that approach to a magical item.
Edit: Also, some pretty primitive versions of guns and canon were being 'field tested' by the Shou during the Tuigan War, and Smoke Powder was used in the Watercourse Trilogy. The formula given there for Smoke Powder was the same as that for RW Black Powder. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Aug 2012 15:38:28 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 16:36:22
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I was thinking about the lightning rail idea, and it occurred to me that were one to be built in Cormyr, it could happen via a few things: the breath weapon of a (Bronze) dragon, the help of Akanul and gemstones unique to Cormyr (in this case sapphires) that can harness the power of the natural output of energy from the Stormhorns or the Thunder Peaks.
I’d call it the Sapphire Rail or the Thunder Rail. I’m still working on the particulars and will try to post later.
Try not to shoot this idea down in the meantime, my fellow well-armed scribes of Candlekeep. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 17:14:47
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I was thinking more Faerzress myself. Sapphires are valuable - I would think they would want to use something they would want to 'burn' (get rid of), not something that holds other value. That's like burning money.
I used Cinnabryl (from Savage Baronies) since I was over near Maztica with my train (I figure Mica is the FR equivalent of Cinnabryl from) Mystara, and used the rules for the railway in Weird West/Deadlands (replacing Ghost Rock with the Cinnabryl/Mica). It even 'howled' like Ghost Rock as it burned (I always thought that was a nice touch).
EDIT: Thinking on this a bit more, if you wanted to completely adapt some of Eberron's concepts (EB wasn't around when I did my railroad), you could have different versions of Mica - Cinnabryl, Necrotite*, and Chardalyn, to correspond to the different types of dragonshards.
Considering the amount of Cormyrian (and other) blood spilled during the Ghazneth affair, I would think Necrotite* would be plentiful in post-war Cormyr. If you say Faerzress is the same thing as Necrotite, then its pure win (because then you could easily port-over whatever rules you wanted from the other settings on empowering items/devices).
*Necrotite is from Iron Kingdoms, and is very cool - it only forms in areas where great bloodshed has spilled. IMG I combined it with Ghost Rock (Deadlands) so I could use the rules from both those settings. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Aug 2012 17:26:34 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 17:18:59
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Smokepowder also showed up in a couple of short stories and novels. I think one short story was called The Magic Thief (or something like that), and then there was another where magelings in Waterdeep get involved in smokepowder smuggling. And then there are several barrels that get used to stop a sahuagin attack in the Threat from the Sea.
The 2e kits Elven Imperial Fleet Advisor and Gnome Artificer allowed Realms characters (well, technically a Spelljammer character starting in the Realms in the case of the elf) to start out with a starwheel pistol, though they were on their own to find more smokepowder once their initial charge ran out.
It wasn't all that common in 2e, but it was definitely present. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 19:34:12
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We also have a canon train in FR.
Its in the (very bad) Swords of the Iron Legion Adventure-path. It was called the Infinity Train, and reminds me of something from a crappy saturday-morning cartoon from the early 70's (maybe late 60's).
Picture a demonic choo-choo that picks up fiends in the lower planes and deposits them in other planes. Like the River Styx, but on LSD. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2012 : 02:02:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I was thinking about the lightning rail idea, and it occurred to me that were one to be built in Cormyr, it could happen via a few things: the breath weapon of a (Bronze) dragon, the help of Akanul and gemstones unique to Cormyr (in this case sapphires) that can harness the power of the natural output of energy from the Stormhorns or the Thunder Peaks.
Corymyr has been wary of Shade ever since their Return from the Plane of Shadow. I suppose it's only natural that they've been researching on ways to counter their superior spellcraft. It's possible that they even try to 'replicate' their mythallar to power their magical items and boost their magic. Though it may be impossible for them to create an exact copy of it, they might have crafted at least a mini-version, not enough to lift an entire city, but enough to propel a train. Or they could use it as a vessel in which to bind an elemental that would pull the train. The railway could be made of golden disks (similar to those used by the Shadovar wizards to levitate). |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2012 : 04:19:44
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| A bunch of golden disks, stretched across the countryside... Hope you plan on putting guards on every single one of them, because otherwise they'll be stolen before the train ever leaves the station. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2012 : 04:36:00
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Not when it's securely bored to the ground through magic. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2012 : 05:03:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Not when it's securely bored to the ground through magic.
So they take a chunk of the ground with them. Or maybe use a handy dispel magic.
Never underestimate the power of greed. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2012 : 05:23:27
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They can coat it with magic that functions as some sort of alarm. Any disturbance to any of the disks, be it magical or mundane, triggers the alarm, sending a bunch of War Wizards, constructs, elementals, undead, or whatever the Mage Royal fancies.
As contingency, they can set up an automatic brake on the mini-mythallar. All the disks are linked, so when one is disturbed, the other working disks send a 'signal' to the mini-mythllar, which in turn would stop the train.
Never underestimate the brilliance of wizards. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 03 Aug 2012 05:48:59 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2012 : 05:40:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Corymyr has been wary of Shade ever since their Return from the Plane of Shadow.
Agreed. I think the golden disk idea is interesting. I wouldn’t worry too much about the disks being stolen (yet). I prefer to see your idea developed some more before offering any constructive criticism. I’ll add that my first thought was a simple blessing from Lathander (say in exchange for a boon from Cormyr) that causes any Shadovar who touches a disk to burn and writhe in agony. Likewise the blessing will ride Shadovar magic cast at the disks, with the same effect.
The fact that this is a divine gift would limit the size and scope of the rail, making it fit in Cormyr and keeping it local/interesting to PCs.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Sapphires are valuable - I would think they would want to use something they would want to 'burn' (get rid of), not something that holds other value. That's like burning money.
Ah, I was thinking of them as foci, not as something to burn. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2012 : 05:47:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Corymyr has been wary of Shade ever since their Return from the Plane of Shadow.
Agreed. I think the golden disk idea is interesting. I wouldn’t worry too much about the disks being stolen (yet). I prefer to see your idea developed some more before offering any constructive criticism. I’ll add that my first thought was a simple blessing from Lathander (say in exchange for a boon from Cormyr) that causes any Shadovar who touches a disk to burn and writhe in agony. Likewise the blessing will ride Shadovar magic cast at the disks, with the same effect.
That would make sense. Though they better hope Shade would not send a Sembian spy-wizard who uses Weave-magic instead of its SW counterpart. That could cause some ugly complications. But I suggested a few contingencies above. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2012 : 06:07:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
In pre-Netheril time, an ordinary folk might have been branded crazy if he thought that there's a way to make ships fly.
You know, I think something like a Lightening Rail could have existed in old Netheril.
Maybe, though most likely not used for public transport. Perhaps a miniature version that Karsus created and displayed in the great hall of his university.
[Edit]
Upon further consideration, I thought maybe they used trains for their servants and for visitors. Most of their servants only knew basic cantrips and could not shift from place to place; so it'd be pretty useful, specially if they send them near the edge of the their enclaves. And visitors would have a grand tour of their enclaves.
Karsus and Lady Polaris might have utilized them. Not sure with Ioulaum and Larloch. They're not exactly what I can call the 'showy' type. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lightning Rail and Other Public Transports
