| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Jul 2012 : 07:09:06
|
Fellow Scribes,
In an odd twist of fate, the players in my Earth/Realms crossing and time traveling style campaign find themselves in the Northdark city of Blingdenstone in the closing days of Nightal in the year of the Tankard (1370). They stopped into Blingdenstone on their way to the trading post of Mantol Derith (to complete a mission therein) and, on their way into town, dealt with a series of Duergar warbands (who were working with a band of Drow who just happened to be members of Bregan D'Aerthe...) that were raiding caravans and ambushing messengers heading into and out of the city. They have left some of their members in the city and plan to return to retrieve them after they return from completing their mission in Mantol Derith (around a month from now).
I say 'in an odd twist of fate' for two reasons. First, as I noted before, the PCs are time traveling and, in so doing, following in the footsteps of characters from a prior campaign I ran during the Realms 2E era (before the changes to Blingdenstone imposed by 3E ever came to light). Second, and most importantly, this happens to place them directly in the crosshairs of an imminent Drow invasion of the city...
The players, aware they are traveling in time, but not quite sure of the specific timing of all events in the period, are aware that the city falls to the Drow sometime soon (they just don't know exactly HOW soon! Lol) and are toying with the idea of trying to do something to change events and stave off disaster (if for no other reason than to test whether or not that is something they can even do).
I am aware of all there is to know (in the public realm anyway) about the fall of the city (it's timing, the foes involved, etc). I learned it here! The best information I have ever read on the subject is contained in this prior thread - http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11039 (thank you BEAST). What I'm wondering isn't so much who attacked, when they attacked, or why (I've got all that covered within the context of my campaign), but how that attack likely rolled out and what a group of PCs aware of it's impending status might do to stop it...(so yes Icelander, this question goes out to you! Lol).
Some facts to know when pondering:
- one of the PCs is on a formal diplomatic mission from Lady Alustriel (in the wake of the report delivered to her by Drizzt just a few months earlier - see the aptly named DDOs Guide to the Underdark) seeking to draw the city into an alliance with the newly established Kingdom of the Silver Marches (aka Luruar) and so has the ear of the King and his Council
- the humans, elves, and dwarves of said kingdom have little more to offer other than kind words at the moment as, in my reckoning of the muddled dates surrounding the Hunter's Blades trilogy, Mithral Hall and Nesme were just attacked and are desperately constructing fortifications in the winter to prepare for what they assume is a renewal of hostilities with the new orc kingdom of Many Arrows in the spring - they have been able to spare a small force (50 or so dwarves and perhaps two dozen mages and Knights in Silver) to send to the city's defense, but no army will be forthcoming
- approximately one days march out of Blingdenstone is a small dwarven outpost built in the waining days of the now fallen dwarven Realm that once controlled the area, it is little more than a series of defensive chambers built around a crossroads, but it was constructed at THE most important crossroads in the area - the four way intersection leading west to Menzoberranzan, north to Blingdenstone, south to Mantol Derith, and east to Mithral Hall - the PCs defeated the raiding Duergar warbands at this site (they were using it as a base camp owing to it's strategic location) and control it presently
- there is a mole at work within the city of Blingdenstone, a mole that is 'working with' the Drow of Bregan D'Aerthe, a mole affiliated with the faction of deep gnomes within the city that supports remaining isolated from the world as the 'best defense', a mole that may very well think he is doing 'the right thing' to defend his people by keeping them out of alliances that might 'provoke' the Drow to attack the city (not knowing that that die has already been cast...)
- the PCs average roughly 8th to 9th level and lean in the direction of spell casting might over martial might, they are VERY well equipped and have more than a few tricks up their sleeves - they make a potent strike force
- as to the issue of time travel, the PCs have no idea whether what they do CAN actually change the future as written, or if in so acting they might actually end up making things worse, so they are in a tough spot - that makes them unlikely to run into the King's council chambers (or through the streets of the city, Lol) yelling 'the Drow are coming' as they actually have no specific PROOF of the extent of the threat, that in turn makes a total evacuation of the city as a defensive measure quite unlikely - this will start with a fight no matter what it seems...
There you have it, let the speculation commence!
(and thanks in advance)
|
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2012 : 21:20:07
|
OK, in discussing Blingdenstone with Brian R. James, I think I have uncovered a little wrinkle in the timing of the sack of the deep gnome town. The earlier works implied that it took place in 1370 DR, while later works explicitly said it took place in 1371 DR. I lean towards late 1370 DR.
In the spring of 1370 DR, Lady Alustriel asks Drizzt to write a report on Blingdenstone and the threats of the Underdark. We're told that Drizzt actually dated his report on the last day of that year (DDUGTTU).
Why did it take him so long to finish and submit his homework, we might ask. (No, the dog didn't eat it.  )
Well, for one thing, Drizzt and the rest of the Companions were living back in Icewind Dale again, and then they went searching up and down the Sword Coast North for the missing Wulfgar (Sea of Swords). According to my calculations, they did not get a few days worth of rest until they arrived in the village of Auckney after the onset of a harsh winter (SOSw). I think that this is most likely the place from which Drizzt would've dispatched his report to the High Lady. From there, the Companions would've gone on to the Golden Cove pirates' lair and eventually reunited with Wulfgar later, that winter (SOSw).
Now, some of the sources indicate that Blingdenstone fell that year: 1370 DR (FRCS {3E}, Underdark). But others changed this to 1371 DR (Silver Marches, Underdark, The Grand History of the Realms).
All things considered, I'm thinking that it must've happened in the latter half of the year 1370 DR, while Drizzt & Co. were off adventuring, and not in close contact with major settlements, which precluded them from hearing the latest news about the fallen svirfneblin city and trying to do anything about it. Ironically enough, this formulation would have Drizzt recommending the acceptance into the League of Luruar/Alliance of Silverymoon confederation the town of Blingdenstone at the end of the same year after it had already been sacked. He simply didn't know it, yet.
Early in 1371 DR, the goodly nations of the North converged once again and signed the Charter of the League of the Silver Marches (SM). The best I can tell, it would've had to have been sickly King Gandalug Battlehammer who signed the Charter on behalf of Mithral Hall, as we are explicitly told that Bruenor had returned to Icewind Dale at the end of SOSw, as soon as there was a break in the winter weather early in 1371 DR. Sadly, the journey to Silverymoon was probably old King Gandalug's last hurrah; the stress of the trip may have even been what finally did him in.
Notice that in all of the literature on the signing of Charter, there is no further mention of Blingdenstone being in consideration for joining the League. By early 1371 DR, the question of the deep gnome city's acceptance is a moot point. There isn't even any talk of heading down to Blingdenstone to search for survivors. ("She's not only mere...ly dead; she's really most sincere...ly dead.)
We are told that news of King Gandalug's death spread in the spring of 1371 DR all the way back to Icewind Dale (Sea of Swords, The Thousand Orcs), which spurred King Bruenor to rally the troops and lead a caravan back toward Mithral Hall (TTO). During all of these discussions, there is no mention of any would-be attempt to join in any fighting at Blingdenstone. I'm thinking that Blingdenstone was already considered to have been a lost cause, by this point. (If the attack had occurred later in 1371 DR, then news would have arrived even later that year, right in the middle of "The Hunter's Blades Trilogy", and King Bruenor surely would've sent a contingent to help the gnomes, but this never happened. And if the deep gnome town fell later like this, then it would've still been in contention for acceptance into the League in 1371 DR, but sources indicate no such thing.)
This all points to the svirfneblin town's fall probably having occurred in late 1370 DR. By early 1371 DR, there did not seem to be any reason to head to Blingdenstone, as it was already defeated, and its citizens dead, dispersed, or enslaved. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 01 Aug 2012 04:31:42 |
 |
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2012 : 22:19:16
|
As to how the attack rolled out . . .
Canonically, since there are no reports of any goodly nations ever coming to the rescue of Blingdenstone, then there likely was never any time for such; the Menzoberranyr must've launched a perfect sneak attack on the deep gnome town, without any advance warning.
Therefore, canonically, I don't think that there really was anything that your party members could do to stop it--that is, without altering the timeline, immensely . . . 
The sequence of events:
King Bruenor Battlehammer kills Matron Yvonnel Baenre, which makes her daughter Triel the new First Matron Mother of Menzoberranzan, in late 1358 DR (Siege of Darkness). (This would allow Triel's allies and rivals, and enemies of Menzoberranzan, all ample time to learn of her ascendancy and observe her leadership style.)
Matron Triel Baenre was insecure in her leadership of the High Council of Menzoberranzan, lacking the confidence and absolute authority of her mother, and in a gamble, sought to bluff and court her way into her peers' favor (SM, Und.). (Surely this must be a vital bit of political intel to all interested in Menzoberranzan. Rivals of Triel knowledgeable of her insecurity might be precisely the ones to share the most intel with spies and moles. Decide for yourself the quantity and quality of such intel they would be willing to share.)
Triel gave the command to attack Blingdenstone (Und., TGHOTR). (It is unclear whether this command was given with all of the matron mothers physically seated in Council, or by remote means. Since only 6 matron mothers are cited to have been in on the attack, it would appear that remote means of communication were the most likely--otherwise, all 8 houses should've been involved. Perhaps this remote means of command & control could be interfered with, taking some of the houses out of the battle, or at least delaying their arrival onto the battlefield?)
6 matron mothers (as far as I know, unnamed, except for Triel) conspired to implement the attack (SM). (Interfere with any one of their houses' operations, and you weaken the overall effect of the attack. Decide which house{s} make the best target{s} for counterinsurgency strikes and miscellaneous mayhem.)
The drow summon demons (FRCS {3E}). Specifically, we are told that hundreds of priestesses and wizards were involved (Und.). It was dozens of bebeliths which were summoned, and then sent into Blingdenstone by gate and planar ally spells, slaughtering most of the deep gnomes (FRCS {3E}). It was also cited as "a veritable horde" of bebeliths (SM). Planar ally spells are cited again (SM). Male wizards and sorcerers were also tasked by their matron mothers to use planar binding spells (SM). (Determine the best counters to spells such as summon, planar ally, and planar binding. Drive a social wedge between matrons/priestesses and wizards/sorcerers. Perhaps have competition between the priestesses and the wizards, or between priestesses and priestesses, or between wizards and wizards, for matronly approval lead to sabotage of each other's efforts. Maybe have some of the bebeliths turn on their summoners; after all, even drow summoning/gate rituals must have a failure rate, right?)
Columns of drow troops then attacked the city (SM). (Identify which spells and magical items are of best use against troop formations.)
Less than 3,000 svirfnebli escaped the attack (SM). (So even with the drow's mastery of the battlefield, there was still some sort of escape avenue; this might also be a viable avenue of approach, taking you right into the midst of the unsuspecting drow would-be overlords.)
I don't play the game, so I don't know specific game tactics & rules to cite.
But can you do something with that?  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2012 : 00:35:52
|
I'm far less familiar with the canon on this subject than other scribes, but coming at it from the time travel angle, I would try to line things up so that the PCs' efforts create the end results described in the novels and sourcebooks.
In other words, they bring things to the canon state (or whatever you want the ending situation to be in your game), in place of circumstances which would have been even worse. Perhaps the PCs are the ones who help those ~3000 gnomes escape, fighting off the drow/demons/whatever sent to seal off a particular escape tunnel. In this way, the PCs' involvement was a foregone conclusion of history and creates no paradoxes.
This shouldn't be a disappointment for the players, even if you choose to give them an epilogue on the campaign and explain how things worked. Saving the entire city would not have been a realistic goal for a group of mid-level adventurers in the first place. They did what they could, and they will be lauded as heroes... among the refugees, at the very least, and the sympathetic folk they share their tales with as they disperse across the north and around the Realms. They ensured that someone survived, to carry their family names for another generation, and to preserve some of the culture and lore of the city. That's pretty heroic. |
Edited by - xaeyruudh on 01 Aug 2012 00:36:59 |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2012 : 04:16:01
|
Yeah, Silver Marches oddly says both that Burrow Warden Krieger was the highest-ranking known survivor to escape the attack, and also that Most-Honored Burrowed Warden Belwar Dissengulp eventually led a contingent of refugees living in Mithral Hall in mid-1372 DR. This is strange, because Belwar outranked Krieger.
So perhaps Krieger was well-known to have survived and relocated his group to Silverymoon, but Belwar's group was thought lost for a time, for it was not heard from for two years.
But maybe your party was the key difference that actually helped Belwar's group to escape, not to immediate safety, but to an ongoing adventure for survival outside of Blingdenstone in the Underdark, only to eventually arrive at Mithral Hall after the close of the novel The Orc King in 1372 DR? If you secretly saved the Most-Honored Burrow Warden, fought beside him during harrowing times, and ultimately helped to escort him to King Bruenor, then your party would surely be hailed as heroes. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 01 Aug 2012 04:23:43 |
|
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2012 : 05:56:04
|
| I dig it. That sounds like material for another novel, and (in my completely amateur opinion) that translates pretty well to a great adventure. |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2012 : 14:04:20
|
I think Beast did a great job of breaking down the attack and its causes, and I agree that a party level 8-9 isn't going to be able to stop the attack completely, at least not using brute force. A couple of thoughts follow:
From the time travelling aspect, one thing you need to look at is how much would changing the event change the general timeline. And the answer with Blingdenstone, is not at all. Those survivors are never mentioned again. Triel is still in charge, but it's still shaky, and I doubt the city's existence would make much difference during the WotSQ. It's obviously a huge difference in the lives of the gnomes who live or die, but from a greater timeline perspective, there wouldn't be much impact for saving the city. Not like, say, Myth Drannor, which would completely change centuries of history in a key area of the Realms.
So it should be possible to save, though by no means easy. Any two of those matrons likely have more class levels than your entire party, and any one of them is probably older. And they've got a significant chunk of Menzo behind them. That's not easy to deflect.
Reading the sources, and Beast's excellent breakdown, it seems to me that the difference in the attack was the massed bebilith charge. It's a little unclear whether the drow were using them as shock troops to break through the outer walls, or having them teleport past them and tear up the city's interior. If it's the second, then the simple expedient of laying down a teleport ward will blunt much of the attack, and channel it through existing defenses. (If the PC's aren't of a high enough level to do that, check out the Weirdstone in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical, which locks down teleporting in a six mile radius)
If you think Blingdenstone, as a long-established city already has teleport wards (which I think is likely, to deter drow thieves and assassins), then the bebiliths are used as brute force cannon fodder, to break down the gates and force through the defensive positions. In which case, a warning so that all of the city's spellcasters can prepare banishment and containment magics could go a long way. Also if given enough time to prepare, the gnomes could summon a counter army, likely from the Plane of Earth.
How you convince the gnomes to do this is the largest problem, since you're outsiders. Beast, I think, suggested the best option: get word from a drow faction. Or, since they're time travellers, just share your foreknowledge and say you got it from a drow faction.
I don't think any of these preparations would be enough to save Blingdenstone. Multiple sources have described the city as existing at Menzo's sufferance, and if the drow decide the expend the effort, they should be able to swat it. All your PC's would be able to do is increase the difficulty, and the drow body count. Or, more heroically, ensure that a far higher number of gnomes make it out alive. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2012 : 17:23:47
|
I don't think that your party should be able to save Blingdenstone too.
Your group is far too weak to be a big factor in the direct fighting and their good standings with the nations of the silver marches don't bring in much benefits either. Even if any or all of the nations would want to bring any of their troops into the underdark to defend Blingdenstone they would get slaughtered on their way there. If not by random monsters or other faction than by the drow themself when their spies or patrols notecing them.
So maybe the best approach would be to let them help out in some situations during the battle to help more gnomes escape. |
|
|
|
Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2012 : 19:09:28
|
I must say I am delighted by the volume and depth of responses on this issue from you all. I knew Candlekeep was the place to go with this question! I shall respond in a more 'point by point' fashion a bit later in the day.
Keep those opinions coming, any dissenting views of the 'they can take 'em' school? Perhaps something from the 'Battle of Thermopylae' fans? I was thinking that, after his brilliant tactical work in Unther, Icelander might have something to add... |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
Edited by - Kris the Grey on 01 Aug 2012 19:12:59 |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2012 : 22:36:03
|
I think the deep gnomes could take them, at least for this first round, if the bebiliths could be neutralized, and the gnomes could prevent the drow from any sort of flanking. That is to say, force the drow to fight step by step through the city's prepared defenses. Triel isn't bringing the full might of Menzo against the gnomes. It's a powerful force, and in canon it was overwhelming, but it's not everything Menzo can throw. For instance, there is no mention of battle slaves other than bebiliths. So if the fiends are dealt with, it becomes a much more even match.
Of course, it's entirely possible that if the fiends go away, Triel will be forced to call for a retreat. She wants a victory and a massacre to shore up her support, she can't afford a drow bloodbath. On the other hand, she might feel like she'd have to go through with it either way, because retreating would be seen as weakness by the other matrons. It would be a really nasty fork to put her in.
My personal opinion is that IF the gnomes know the drow are coming, and IF they know the tactics the drow are planning to use, and IF they can force them through prepared defenses, and IF the bebiliths can be neutralized, then they'd have a chance of holding. If the PC's provide the first two points, the gnomes can do much of the last two on their own.
If I was looking for a point of maximum of effect for a group of adventurers, I'd make a strike against the assembled drow spellcasters just as they're about to start start the summoning. Use meld into stone and stone walk-type magics to hide unseen, and then hit them when they're unsuspecting and where most or all of their most powerful spells will be taken up with summoning, and not general combat.
There's no way you'd be able to kill them all; this would be a "hit as hard as possible as fast as possible, then retreat as fast as possible" special forces kind of hit. Preferably with as many high level svirfneblin in support, and to provide escape back into the stone. If you can kill some of the spellcasters, while the soldiers are likely keeping as far away as possible to avoid becoming a meal for hungry fiends, you'll take that many fiends out of the picture, sow confusion and discord in the ranks, and maybe force the drow to rethink the whole thing, since you've proved that the gnomes know you're coming.
Then you retreat back to Blingdenstone, which has hopefully already been evacuated of non-combatants, and prepare to take on the drow, assuming they still come on (which is likely). How's that for a potential path to victory? |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 06:05:53
|
Do devilish summoning circles always have to be pentagrams? What if the 6 drow houses were planning on forming a hexagram around the city of Blingdenstone? Could interfering with just one of those houses' operations be enough to stop the entire summoning? I'm thinking along the lines of Szass Tam's first wave of Dread Rings, which apparently similarly failed because one of the Dread Rings was sabotaged before he could unleash his ultimate plan.
Blingdenstone has a very cool, three-dimensional maze for its front porch called the Labyrinth. That has got to slow invading troops down immensely. It would be quite fun to read about the gnomes defending their home with that crazy maze properly equipped. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2012 : 08:14:12
|
Alrighty, getting to that longer reply...
First off, to those who have chimed in, thank you all for your insights (and to those who have not, please do!). One of the things I appreciate most about this site is the ability to discuss such matters with a group of thoughtful, passionate, and knowledgeable Realms fans. You can't really bounce ideas like this off of your spouse or your players (especially if your spouse is one of your players, Lol), so a community of fellow DMs and scholars alike is an invaluable aid to improving the story behind one's game. To me, it's all about keeping the fantasy as real as can be, if you know what I mean.
Anyway, to address a few points (and stir the conversational pot a bit):
1) On the time travel element, I'm as much of a time travel sci-fi genre fan as I am a fantasy literature fan, so I spend a lot of time considering the various rules of the genre when I use time travel. The opportunity for paradox abounds, and players are well advised to seriously consider the possible ramifications of their actions (lest they end up doing more harm than good) before simply acting. That said, I am keenly aware of the varied limitations Mystra (and Ao I suppose) place on time travel in the Realms. The difference present in this game is that the time travelers aren't from the Realms, they are from Earth, and so quite possibly (I can't say anything out in the open here, as certain players may lurk about) are in a unique position relative to the local rules. To use a Krynn analogy (and one that fits some of my players quite well...), they might just be like Kender let loose in the time stream... Nevertheless, I am at least sensitive to massive disruptions to canon, so rest assured, events are VERY hard to radically change, the currents of time are very strong indeed, and have a way of bending back around to flow into the channels previously cut for them.
2) On the timeline, BEAST, while I can hardly quibble with the INCREDIBLE work you have done in establishing a coherent timeline out of the mishmash that pervades much of the WoTC material covering the years from 1369 to 1372, I've chosen to nudge certain events around a bit to fit my meta needs. So, in my version of canon, the events of the Hunter's Blade Trilogy take place from early summer 1370 until early spring 1371 and I date the formal founding of Luruar to immediately before that (with the fall of Hellgate Keep giving a nudge towards it's establishment) making the rise of Obould's kingdom the new council's first major test (one it fails in my view). I do agree with you 100% about the timing of the Fall of Blingdenstone (I was convinced by your well reasoned argument in your original post) and so I have it happening on track to what you've said (again, specific date omitted to keep certain people in the dark).
3) As to the rollout of the attack, I again agree with almost all of what you are saying BEAST. In doing my own primary source research I came upon everything you did. The attack was indeed a massive surprise to the gnomes and the city does seem to have fallen quite quickly.
The fact that around 3000 deep gnomes escaped anyway is more a testament to their 'run and hide' mentality and general disaster preparedness levels. Remember, these are the folks who completely evacuated their city without firing a shot the last time the drow were on the march anywhere nearby (in 1358). All the more reason for Triel to make sure such an attack had the element of surprise! In DDUGTTU's description of the city it says, (on page 35) "Ancient shafts still connect Blingdenstone with the abandoned Ironstar delvings above. From the City of Speaking Stones, it is possible to reach the heart of Firstpeak (Ironstar Mountain) via ramps that spiral up a series of vertical shafts. From the halls of Clan Ironstar, now home to the somnolent great silver wyrm Dargentum the Darksteel Drake, a network of forgotten tunnels opens onto the slopes of Firstpeak, high above the River Surbrin. Only the reigning monarch of Blingdenstone and his designated heir know of this route, reserved as a last, best hope of escape for the populace should the city ever be overrun."
I agree with everyone's assessment that THE key factor that made THIS assault so devastating was the 'army' of bebiliths. Interestingly, there seems to be some variance in the source materials on just HOW their attack played out...
Underdark, TGHOTR, and Silver Marches use the terms, 'conjured and loosed on the city', 'summoned bebiliths', and go out of their way to describe the use of summon planar ally and planar binding spells (which both require time and proximity of the caster to the summoned demon). However, the initial draft of the 3E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book says, (on page 211) "Dozens of bebiliths were summoned INTO Blingdenstone by gate and planar ally spells, slaughtering most of the svirfneblin." This may well simply be a slightly different way of describing the same event, but (and I am a lawyer, so word choices matter to me) I think it's useful and instructive. What better way to spring a surprise attack than to send a smaller subset of your demon horde (36 to 60 or so) directly INTO the heart of the enemy city just as the rest of your army is kicking in the front door? The sources are quite clear that the actual drow soldiers were a second wave. "Behind these fiendish shock troops, silent and deadly columns of drow warriors BURROWED IN to complete the destruction." (Silver Marches, page 35) "...or taken captive by WAITING drow warriors..." (Underdark, page 129).
This happened DESPITE the presence of deep gnome wards and guardians. DDUGTTU (on page 39) is quite clear as to the extent of the gnomes defenses. "Like most Underdark cities, Blingdenstone is magically warded against invaders tunneling in from the enveloping Underdark. The city's spellcasters seed the surrounding stone with gems. Each gem is enchanted with one or more glyphs of warding, spelltriggers, and symbols. If disturbed, such wards release effects such as mass blindness and weird. Other gems bear enchantments such as screen that shield the city from scrying. Finally, Blingdenstone's priests have bargained for the services of a contingent of earth elementals. Each elemental serves for four weeks at a time. At least a dozen elementals patrol the surrounding stone at any given time, emerging from the rock only if called. Never straying more than a mile from the city, they quickly converge on and destroy any creature so foolish as to tunnel towards Blindgenstone's caverns."
So, it would seem that the drow used some sort of focus, an item perhaps (talk about your WMD!), slipped into the gnome city as a gate terminus for their initial strike force of bebiliths and timed that assault with a force attacking the gates and then a follow on with drow soldiers through tunnels after the elementals had been drawn off and a path through the ward gems blazed. Such an assault strategy would rather tidily explain why the deep gnomes were so swiftly overrun despite the depth and complexity of their defenses. It would also have the added diplomatic bonus of sparing the drow Matron Mothers agreeing to sponsor such an attack significant losses from within their own forces - something they were no doubt gun shy about after the last drow offensive in the area.
The problem with such an assault, from the drow perspective, is that if it loses: a) the element of surprise and b) that initial punch INTO the city bypassing the cities defenses it gets bogged down (and VERY costly) right quick. To me, THAT is the place where a dedicated group of adventurers with a little bit of foreknowledge could do the most good.
What does everyone think?
As a postscript to my ramblings, I'll tell a funny tale that goes in the 'odd coincidences' pile. I noted in my original post that this campaign's time travel element is that it is taking place overlaying the history of a previous 'play yourself' Realms campaign I ran many years ago. The PCs in this game are interacting with the PCs from that game (in their now NPC status) as they go about their original campaign activities (using my old campaign journals as a guide). That game largely began and ended during the reign of 2E. Waaaay before the concept of the Fall of Blingdenstone was thought up.
In that game, the PCs visited Mantol Derith (and Blingdenstone on their way) during the very end of 1370/very start of 1371 on a mission utterly unrelated to the one the present PCs are on. The head of the party (yours truly, Kris the Grey, who was getting a rare chance to play his NPC self as a PC while one of the other players ran the game for an single adventure to give me a taste of playing), needing a guide to Mantol Derith and having an unhealthy fascination with drow, took the opportunity to bargain with the Bregan D'Aerthe drow he encountered when he and his companions defeated the marauding Duergar warbands.
Thinking himself terribly clever and fully capable of matching wits with any drow, he negotiated for a drow guide to Mantol Derith. He agreed as the price of such guide, to use his status as a trade envoy from Silverymoon (and the access to the gnome council chambers it gave him), to sneak into the city a simple magical 'listening device' for the drow. He upheld his part of the bargain, but then double crossed the drow by telling the gnomish king (who he'd befriended by ridding him of his Duergar problems) of the device and convincing them to use it as a source to pass fake intelligence to the drow. He used the guide to get into and out of Mantol Derith, was betrayed on the way out of the trade post, moments before he sprung his own betrayal of the drow, and then returned to Blingdenstone mission over. He left the city for the surface, thinking himself quite clever, with the device by now locked safely away in the vaults under the main government house by the gnomes. Imagine his surprise when he read the fate of Blingdenstone in the 3E guide to the Realms that came out a few short months later...
|
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
|
|
|
xaeyruudh
Master of Realmslore
USA
1853 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2012 : 05:53:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey
I agree with everyone's assessment that THE key factor that made THIS assault so devastating was the 'army' of bebiliths.
If I'm not reading too much into the description, the fact that the attack blossomed from within the city itself was pretty key. At least, if I were in charge of the attack, that's how I would try to get it done. The point is that who's attacking matters less than where they're attacking from... as already noted, if the attack originated from outside the maze, and the invaders had to battle their way through those cramped winding tunnels, the gnomes would have a good chance of holding them off long enough for the majority of the city to evacuate.
And of course, burrowing into the city is out. Those pesky alarm-gems, and gnomes' inherent attunement to the stone and the simple fact that that's how they expect to be invaded make that an inferior avenue. Drow wouldn't bother trying to be better at stonework than duergar or gnomes... they would just find other methods of killing, relying on their own strengths. I guess the second wave might burrow into the city, but this seems like an arduous and far less desirable method. It's doubtful that the gnomes will be able to mount an effective defense against one of the invasion points (which I'm getting to), let alone all six. So the second wave can safely take the portals into the city and disperse from there.
So attack from within the city... but not the heart of it. Priestesses and wizards, ethereal or shadow-walking or polymorphed to avoid triggering the alarms, enter Blingdenstone and take positions previously calculated using information from their mole. With that spy, the drow will be able to construct a detailed street map of the city, probably including useful tidbits like where the city's key defenders live/work. The mole will also unwittingly tell them how to disguise the casters to initially get into the city. The drow will pick (in my opinion) residential neighborhoods, away from broad avenues/squares. I think six positions around the city sounds good, with six casters at each one. 36 high level drow might sound like a lot, but not when it's divided amongst Menzoberranzan's leading Houses. Each caster opens a portal, through which emerge 1-2 bebiliths, 1-2 draegloths, and 4-5 drow warriors. So easily within three rounds after the synchronized portals opening, 36-72 bebiliths are rampaging through high-density neighborhoods. Defenders will be faced with the impossible task of fighting powerful demons in 6 different places at once. While the bebiliths attack, the drow casters soften up the resistance with death spells and earthquakes, collapse large structures with well-placed disintegrates, etc. the draegloths and warriors just revel in the carnage and eviscerate anything blind enough to venture too close to the casters/portals.
Anybody bent on closing a portal (of which there are 36 so stopping the invasion this way is a futile task anyway) first has to not only ignore/circumvent the bebiliths, but bring a large enough force with him to keep the large-adventuring-band worth of drow casters, warriors, and draegloth busy while he shuts the portal... and hopefully no extra foes are lurking nearby invisibly waiting for just such a hero...
Most of the escape tunnels will be collapsed using explosives, or blocked by wall of stone spells, in the moments immediately after the portals open, to funnel fleeing gnomes into particular passages in which nets (probably both living and animated) await.
quote:
The problem with such an assault, from the drow perspective, is that if it loses: a) the element of surprise and b) that initial punch INTO the city bypassing the cities defenses it gets bogged down (and VERY costly) right quick. To me, THAT is the place where a dedicated group of adventurers with a little bit of foreknowledge could do the most good.
Timing is everything to an attack like this. Anything that disrupts the drow's communication will help a little bit. If the PCs find a way to obtain some advance knowledge of the specific locations where the portals will be opened, then they have the chance to limit the drow to five... maybe four or three if the intel is good and if local gnome heroes can be convinced to cooperate. Of course, with advance knowledge of the attack points comes forewarning of the attack itself, and wise gnomes will simply melt away and leave the city empty (again) so I guess the assumption is that the gnomes won't believe that the PCs' intel is valid. So the heroes might be on their own. Still, some creative planning might give them a chance. My first thought is a temporary localized magic-dead zone covering the place where the drow are going to be setting up shop (in concert with some sneaky backstabbers), but it sounds like you have a creative bunch of players so I'm sure they'll come up with something even better.
Even more "everything" than timing is that mole. If the PCs can identify the mole and use him to feed false information to the drow, the casters arriving in the city to set up the attack can be apprehended silently (using magic-deadening hoods/shackles/whatever) and then Triel is left looking like a noob, with the most powerful matrons in her city standing by waiting to send their troops through portals that are not opening. Tap-tap-tapping their fingers... where are the portals, Triel...? 
Anyway, just my take on it from the information dropped here so far. It sounds like a fun challenge, for both DM and players.
quote:
Imagine his surprise when he read the fate of Blingdenstone in the 3E guide to the Realms that came out a few short months later...
 |
|
|
|
Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2012 : 02:09:45
|
Alas, it seems as though we shall have no brilliant tactical strategms from Icelander! Mores the pity, maybe I'll drop him a PM...
BEAST, what make you of my reading of the "Dozens of bebiliths were summoned into Blingdenstone by gate and planar ally spells, slaughtering most of the svirfneblin" line from the 3E Realms campaign setting? Am I onto something or barking at the moon? |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 00:03:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kris the Grey
1) On the time travel element, I'm as much of a time travel sci-fi genre fan as I am a fantasy literature fan, so I spend a lot of time considering the various rules of the genre when I use time travel.
I've always loved the general concept of time travel.
But sobering explanations of how even the tiniest changes in the past can reap huge whirlwinds of change in the revised future have put a very bad taste in my mouth. It's scary to think that you could completely wipe away a whole lot of people's existences by wearing a different clothing outfit, or eating a different breakfast, or taking a different road to get to your destination, than what you did the first time around. How supremely arrogant, selfish, and unforgivably reckless must one be to nevertheless plow right ahead and make those seemingly "minor" changes, anway?!
I suppose that the degree of probable harm likely varies directly with the interval backward in time you seek to go. The further back you go, the more people and other events stand to be affected by the changes that you introduce; the shorter time interval you jump backward, the fewer things stand to be changed by your actions.
But if your actions lead to someone being killed that didn't die in the original timeline, is that justifiable? Or if they led to someone never being born? What if your actions kept a couple from ever meeting, falling in love, courting, marrying, having children, raising a family, and living happily ever after? What if your actions did any or all of these things to multiple people? Even if you could ever figure out how to time travel, what gives you the right to put so many other people's welfare at stake for the benefit of your desire to "set things right"? How dare you make the decision to put them in jeopardy--shouldn't they have some say in it?!
These pointed Q's are not directly aimed at you, KTG. They're just the kind of rambling that goes on in my head when I think about time travel, these days.
quote:
2) On the timeline, BEAST, while I can hardly quibble with the INCREDIBLE work you have done in establishing a coherent timeline out of the mishmash that pervades much of the WoTC material covering the years from 1369 to 1372,
Thanks, mate! I've tried several times to get others to help me to work through that mish-mash, only to repeatedly get blowing winds and tumbleweeds. No one else has ever desired to open that can of worms. That sucks! At least I've tried really, really hard.
quote:
I've chosen to nudge certain events around a bit to fit my meta needs. So, in my version of canon, the events of the Hunter's Blade Trilogy take place from early summer 1370 until early spring 1371
The problem with the heretofore official dating by WOTC of the events in "THBT" thusly is that those particular novels clearly tell us that the events all take place within the same calendar year: The Thousand Orcs in spring, The Lone Drow in summer, and The Two Swords in autumn & winter. There is no calendar year break in the middle of Obould's campaign against the North. Many of the events in the mini-series are described as taking place merely tendays apart from one another. Consider the very specific description of the passing of seasons, and the entire mini-series takes place in the same year: 1371 DR.
Delly Curtie's death, described in TTS as having taken place at the onset of winter, is clearly dated in 1371 DR in The Orc King. So TTS takes place in autumn-winter, 1371 DR.
That novel ends with winter really setting in, and then Drizzt and Innovindil have a brief adventure over the course of that winter in the short story "Comrades at Odds".
The next novel (The Orc King) picks up during that same winter, and we are clearly told that it is now the Year of Wild Magic (1372 DR).
So I'm not sure how you got your dates for "THBT", at all. I really don't see how you figure that as your version of "canon".
WOTC's chronology-meisters apparently arbitrarily inserted an extra year in there because they were trying to force Bob's stories to catch up to the then-current time of the rest of the Realms.
But I have found a better way to accomplish that. Just insert some more calendar years between the novels The Spine of the World and Sea of Swords, instead of right into the middle of events within "The Hunter's Blades Trilogy". At the end of TSOTW, Wulfgar arrives in Waterdeep seeking to join the crew of the Sea Sprite; and at the beginning of SOSw, he supposedly has been sailing aboard the ship for "the last three months at sea". There's nothing significant that precludes us from reading several years of journeys into the interim between the two novels, and interpreting "the last three months at sea" as merely refering to Wulfgar's latest tour with the crew, as opposed to the entirety of his time aboard ship.
However, as always, you are still free to consider or disregard such details as you see fit. Just please don't call the end result "canon", OK?
quote:
and I date the formal founding of Luruar to immediately before that (with the fall of Hellgate Keep giving a nudge towards it's establishment) making the rise of Obould's kingdom the new council's first major test (one it fails in my view).
(Just as a reminder: the international coalition in the North was first called the Alliance of Silverymoon, with an open-ended request for suggestions for better names, in 1369 DR. In addition to several other options, Old Night recommended the name "Luruar". By 1370 DR, either formally or informally, Drizzt was referring to the alliance as Luruar (DDUGTTU). And then in 1371 DR, the coalition adopted the name "The League of the Silver Marches".)
I actually would agree with you that the rise of Obould did constitute the first major test of the League, and it was one that the League seems to have failed.
I don't believe that we've ever been told exactly when in the year 1371 DR the Charter of the League of Silver Marches was signed: early, middle, or late? But I have guessed that it must've been very early in the year because of trivial details in "THBT". Neither "Luruar" nor "the Silver Marches" are mentioned in TTO, but the Silver Marches are described as being in existence in TLD and TTS. King Gandalug was dead, and King Bruenor was comatose for most of TLD, so neither could've been signatories to the Charter, so 'twould appear that the League must've come into existence some time before summer of 1371 DR. Since TTO seems to take place in the same year as the other two novels, and Bruenor was completely preoccupied with leading his caravan out of Icewind Dale, then he could not have been involved in the signing of the Charter that spring, so the Charter must've been signed even earlier than that. This points to the Charter being signed in winter, early 1371 DR, during the events at the end of SOSw.
I don't know anything about Hellgate Keep. I don't know how those events bear on the rise of the Silver Marches. (Yet again, I will repeat my numerous calls for assistance in compiling all the tidbits of lore about this time period.)
But I would venture to say that the fall of Blingdenstone probably had a direct bearing on the decision to finally establish the League of the Silver Marches. The gnome town was being considered for inclusion in the forerunner of the Silver Marches, the Alliance of Silverymoon/Luruar, and before a decision could be made, the town was destroyed. Then Drizzt finally--belatedly, tragically--sends his report recommending that the town actually be included within the Alliance, and sadly it's too late. Surely this must've spurred the leaders of the North to get hopping and move forward with their notion of a much stronger multi-national coalition. Even King Gandalug rose from his deathbed for one last journey, to co-sign the Charter. As King Bruenor was always wont to say, "No time fer wastin'!"
quote:
I do agree with you 100% about the timing of the Fall of Blingdenstone (I was convinced by your well reasoned argument in your original post) and so I have it happening on track to what you've said (again, specific date omitted to keep certain people in the dark).
Cool beans!
It's Forgotten Realms meets Back to the Future meets Cloak & Dagger! 
quote:
I agree with everyone's assessment that THE key factor that made THIS assault so devastating was the 'army' of bebiliths. Interestingly, there seems to be some variance in the source materials on just HOW their attack played out...
Underdark, TGHOTR, and Silver Marches use the terms, 'conjured and loosed on the city', 'summoned bebiliths', and go out of their way to describe the use of summon planar ally and planar binding spells (which both require time and proximity of the caster to the summoned demon). However, the initial draft of the 3E Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book says, (on page 211) "Dozens of bebiliths were summoned INTO Blingdenstone by gate and planar ally spells, slaughtering most of the svirfneblin." This may well simply be a slightly different way of describing the same event, but (and I am a lawyer, so word choices matter to me) I think it's useful and instructive. What better way to spring a surprise attack than to send a smaller subset of your demon horde (36 to 60 or so) directly INTO the heart of the enemy city just as the rest of your army is kicking in the front door?
So you're differentiating between "loosed on" and "summoned into"?
OK, sure, that works. The drow did both.
quote:
The sources are quite clear that the actual drow soldiers were a second wave. "Behind these fiendish shock troops, silent and deadly columns of drow warriors BURROWED IN to complete the destruction." (Silver Marches, page 35) "...or taken captive by WAITING drow warriors..." (Underdark, page 129).
So some drow actively burrowed into the town, while others passively lied in wait for gnomish refugees.
quote:
So, it would seem that the drow used some sort of focus, an item perhaps (talk about your WMD!), slipped into the gnome city as a gate terminus for their initial strike force of bebiliths and timed that assault with a force attacking the gates and then a follow on with drow soldiers through tunnels after the elementals had been drawn off and a path through the ward gems blazed. Such an assault strategy would rather tidily explain why the deep gnomes were so swiftly overrun despite the depth and complexity of their defenses.
What if the first wave of bebeliths attacked the city from the outside to draw the elementals out and expend the ward gems ("fiendish shock troops"); and then, with the gnomes focused on that external attack, the internal bebelith attack came? All eyes might've been directed outward, while more demons were being gated in behind the gnome defenders' backs, between them and their king.
Poor, poor King Schnicktick! 
quote:
It would also have the added diplomatic bonus of sparing the drow Matron Mothers agreeing to sponsor such an attack significant losses from within their own forces - something they were no doubt gun shy about after the last drow offensive in the area.
Well, yeah, this is the drow way: why use your own drow troops for fodder when you can always use someone else's first? Demons'll whack anything; take advantage of that.
quote:
The problem with such an assault, from the drow perspective, is that if it loses: a) the element of surprise and b) that initial punch INTO the city bypassing the cities defenses it gets bogged down (and VERY costly) right quick. To me, THAT is the place where a dedicated group of adventurers with a little bit of foreknowledge could do the most good.
I can't rightly say I'd do a whole lot better defending myself against a swarm of hornets just because you told me to brace for impact. It would still be a swarm of hornets!
And here, we're talking about a swarm of demons! 
Are you gonna be able to bog down a drow invasion with just 12 earth elementals?
Or do you maybe recruit a whole lot more, just for this special occasion?
Relations were said to be very good between Blingdenstone and Mithral Hall in Drizzt's report. Might they have been good enough to help equip the gnome town with a lot more ward gems, just in the knick of time?
Likely assembly points in the Underdark tunnels for foreign troops would probably be rigged by the gnomes to collapse. Start chanting some mumbo-jumbo at this town, and they'll bring the roof down on ya!
There should probably be some nifty places specially prepared to practically invite drow casters in, complete with lovely gnomish parting gifts! 
quote:
Imagine his surprise when he read the fate of Blingdenstone in the 3E guide to the Realms that came out a few short months later...
You jest.
But this is sorta what happened to RAS, himself. He always wanted to revist Belwar Dissengulp, (and Josidiah Starym, too). But then he was told that Josidiah got killed off by somebody else, and the he was told the Blingdenstone got wiped out and Krieger was the highest-ranking known survivor.
Bob was not amused.  
Q: I just thought of this: if the gnome clerics & casters attempted to magically block the drow's summoning spells, might this have likewise interfered with the gnomes' own spells calling and controlling their favored earth elementals? Could attempting to dispell the bebeliths have backfired on the gnomes? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 03:10:36
|
Josidiah Starym was not "killed off" - Steven Schend is a comic book fan and a big believer in never leaving bodies behind. Salvatore could have used Josidiah easily - all he needed was to use a bit of imagination.
The fall of Blingdenstone was a development of the edition change to 3E. I and others said "Please don't". They did it anyway.
-- George Krashos
|
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2012 : 04:32:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Josidiah Starym was not "killed off" - Steven Schend is a comic book fan and a big believer in never leaving bodies behind. Salvatore could have used Josidiah easily - all he needed was to use a bit of imagination.
OK, but again, Krash, apparently the way it was explained to Bob made it sound a lot more definitive than that. Apparently, it was much the same with the way that Blingdenstone's fall was explained to him, too. And it irked him so much that he just didn't feel like dealing with those characters anymore. Throw in the fact that 3E was advancing the timeline quite a bit, and his own stories were so many years behind the times, and he just didn't have any desire left in him to dredge up the old news about Jos & Guen.
And when Steven wrote that the fires claimed Josidiah and the Artblade and no trace remained of him in 714 DR; and afterwards no other designer or author ever picked up the tale again, it certainly gave credence to the notion that Josidiah was indeed killed off.
At any rate, I think that if Bob had been really insistent, he should've been able to tell flashback tales of Josidiah's life with Guenhwyvar long before that event, just the same. He gave insight into Entreri's past with the use of flashbacks in Road of the Patriarch, and has repeatedly hinted that he wants to use flashbacks to discuss the shared past between Zaknafein and Jarlaxle. Why not do so with Jos & Guen, then?
Similarly, when Bob was first told that Blingdenstone got sacked, it seems to have peeved him so much that he never got the memo that Belwar was supposed to have survived and moved to Mithral Hall in 1372 DR (Silver Marches). That doesn't undo the fact that the city of Blingdenstone had become unavailable for Bob to use, but it did mean that he could at least continue to use his fave deep gnome character. Sadly, he never ran with that, either.
My whole point in bringing all that up was just to piggy-back off KTG's anecdotal story of an unfortunate coincidence.
quote:
The fall of Blingdenstone was a development of the edition change to 3E. I and others said "Please don't". They did it anyway.
Well, one good bit of news about 4E is that Blingdenstone turns out not to have been quite as thoroughly destroyed as was once believed. It's populated by a whole new generation of deep gnomes, but it's coming back into its own, slowly but surely.
Maybe they belatedly listened to you, Krash.  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2012 : 20:30:23
|
| As I was posting in another thread, it does appear like Blindengstone is experiencing a resurgence. It's the setting for the playtest adventure in the new D&D Next packet. It's still unclear about the timing of the adventure because it hasn't been announced (as far as I know) when the new edition of the Realms will be set (or if it will be set in a specific period at all). |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
|
|
|
Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 23:17:03
|
EB,
It looks like it's set in the 1480's as part of the WoTC 5E attempt to fix...I mean...correct...I mean...expand upon in game decisions from prior editions that ended up being less than popular. It's not quite a re-write, but it puts the deep gnomes and their city back on the map (so to speak). |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
|
|
|
Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 20:54:00
|
As an update to this thread, I've posted a related 'technical question' over in the main 'General Forgotten Realms Chat' zone. (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17051).
Here it is replicated for your inspection:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fellow scribes,
I'm grappling with some ideas surrounding the Drow assault on Blingdenstone in 1370/1371 (at the cusp of 3E) as I've laid out on another thread (for those inclined to offer some advice):
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16788
My consideration of that attack has lead me to ponder what method of summoning and employing demons en masse as 'shock troops' for an army over a sustained period of time the Drow of Menzoberranzan might have employed. I know the answers to my questions rely to some degree on the game system I employ but, this being D&D, there are certain similarities that exist across all the game systems when it comes to summoning demons. Those limitations imposed by those similarities need to be overcome no matter which rules set is used (I'm using 3.5/Pathfinder just as an FYI).
My main issue is the method used to summon a 'horde' of demons. It's one thing for a caster to call a demon (or three) for a task, but it is quite another for a horde of several dozen (to over a hundred!) bebeliths (high HD demons to be sure) to be summoned either at once, or over time frames that overlap, and wield them together into a co-ordinated military force (well, as co-ordinated as a 'point and shoot' horde of demons can be anyway).
The source materials (read the above thread for a well researched analysis of them by BEAST) make clear that the combined forces of 6 of Menzoberranzan's great houses (lead by the first house) employed the full might of their priestesses and wizards to both summon and bind the demons in question. From a game standpoint, that means Planar Ally spells (or the like) for the priestesses and Planar Binding spells (or the like) for the wizards. Those are 4th and 5th level spells respectively (for even the lesser versions) requiring 7th to 9th level casters (and thus limiting the number of priestesses and wizards who can participate by casting them).
Their maximum durations are both 1/day per level of the caster for the most complex tasks requested (sacking a city would likely be a somewhat complex undertaking). They also require great wealth for components (nothing 6 houses acting together under the blessing of Lolth couldn't manage) and proximity to the caster (the demon must be called within roughly 50 feet of the caster) to function.
No doubt ritual spell casting could be employed to gin up 'greater' versions of the spells capable of calling multiple demons at once (and possibly extending durations as needed). That still doesn't get us past the time and space limitations needed to pull off the feat. Those demons can't be summoned remotely. You need to be 'up close and personal' and magic of that sort also takes time to cast (the original spells call for a 10 minute casting time).
The Drow assault on Blingdenstone was a massive surprise assault. It overwhelmed the city so effectively (despite it's very effective defenses) because the deep gnomes didn't see it coming until it was much too late for them to organize a defense (or stage a retreat as they had done in the past). That would require a whole host of 'black ops' work on the part of the Drow to blind the deep gnome intelligence network, spoof their patrols, and slip past their wards and patrolling elementals.
The Drow are certainly no slouches at espionage (despite their clear failure to avoid warning the deep gnomes that they were marching to war when they attacked Mithral Hall in 1358...), so one can assume they managed to employ false rumors, turn or capture spies, obtain a mole or two, keep deep gnome patrols off guard, and come up with a way past (as opposed to through) the deep gnome defenses and into the heart of the city (using gates or the like as detailed in the other thread).
However, that still doesn't solve my main problem, how the hell (or how the abyss) do you get an army of demons close enough to the city of Blingdenstone to launch an attack without letting the whole world know about it?
The march from Menzoberranzan to Blingdenstone (for an army anyway) probably takes around 8 days (with an inside of 6 and an outside of 10). Do you summon your demons in Menzoberranzan and march them that far? Or, do you find a spot big enough and near enough (within less than a day) of Blingdenstone, take it with your regular army, blind Blingdenstone's patrols, and summon your army of demons from there?
Each strategy has it's strengths and weaknesses.
My question thus is: how do you manage the technical aspects of the summoning and then get your army in place for a surprise attack? Your thoughts? |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
|
|
|
EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 03 Oct 2012 : 23:55:28
|
I don't think the technical aspect of the summoning is all that complicated. The drow houses are full of mid and high level priestesses and have a fair number of wizards also. Because demons can be bound, they can be summoned over time. If they really wanted to, and could actually work together on it (cooperation doesn't = drow's greatest strength), they could probably unleash thousands.
Your second question was about logistics. I'm guessing that they are using some sort of planar gate. The demons themselves can probably teleport or gate themselves. Of course, Faezress could prove to be an issue, but the demons could leave the Underdark, rapidly transport themselves via teleportation or gating to an entrance near Blindengstone, and then enter from there. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 08:16:03
|
Ed's latest book "Elminster Enraged" has demon-spewing planar rifts in the Underdark, so they are possible.
-- George Krashos
|
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 14:55:54
|
In my opinion, the fiends have to be summoned right outside Blingdenstone. I don't care what edition or bindings you're using, but you don't summon dozens, or hundreds, or tanar'ri into any city you don't want levelled. They just don't have the control, by definition.
My feeling is that you'd march your drow army out against Blingdenstone. If at all possible, hide this from the gnomes, but if they catch wind of it, fine, because they won't guess the true plan. Find a big cavern as close as you can, cover it in anti-scrying wards, and then start the summoning. In 3e, each spell takes 10 minutes to cast, which would give you the ability to rotate casters in and out as they exhaust their spells if you don't have enough space for them all to work at the same time.
To me, that casting is the best chance anyone has of disrupting the attack. You've got most of the most powerful spellcasters in one area, but armed with non-combat magic. There wouldn't be room for many guards in addition to the casters and the increasing number of tanar'ri, so the bulk of the army would be keeping a perimeter. If you could get a strike team, or better yet a svirfneblin army, past them unnoticed, you could cause a tremendous amount of damange very quickly, then retreat before the drow could swarm you under. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 16:29:09
|
I don't think there is any need to cast near Blindengstone. The demons could be summoned and bound in advance, and then gate or teleport in. At worst, they could be brought to the surface, magically transported to be near the entrance to the Underdark over Blindengstone, then do their assault from there.
As for control, the drow have them bound. That doesn't mean they can't escape the binding, but it seems unlikely the drow would even care if the city was destroyed. If they are successfully bound, they have to do what the drow say, though the orders might be open to interpretation. It's quite possible they are being rewarded in some way as well.
As for divinations, there is the issue of faezress, which blocks divination and conjuration magic. Also, Blindengstone is fairly well protected by its own defensive enchantments. The drow could probably find a way around this, but the same thing that works in the favor of the deep gnomes also prevents them from effectively scrying outside their domain. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 17:00:19
|
I was a bit unclear in my first paragraph. I meant the amount of damage the tanar'ri would do to Menzo, not Blingdenstone, if they were summoned there to assemble the army before marching. And while I'm sure the matrons wouldn't care about some breakage, there reaches a point where the death and destruction is too much, even for them.
Let's remember, not even tanar'ri officers can keep a tanar'ri army from tearing themselves apart if they're kept in one place too long. Drow aren't going to have much more luck. Plus, they waste time and resources in the longer version of the planar ally spells (if we're talking 3.5) by requiring the fiends to stay around for days. For some of the less powerful casters, that time limit would actually expire before the whole group could be assembled and the march to Blingdenstone completed. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 18:24:23
|
Hoondatha,
That concern for 'keeping the team together' was one my main reasons for leaning in your direction on the 'where's and when's' of any summoning. In the end, these aren't an army of succubi, these are bebiliths (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/bebilith), they like chewing on demons and they are the size of elephants! You would probably have serious trouble even fitting 36 to 72 of them down the passageways leading from Menzo to Blingdenstone. Much better to call them somewhere closer, then open a gate frpm there past Blingdenstone's defenses using an infiltration team to provide the focus for the Blingdenstone end of the gate terminus. It's that, or risk corralling them all in Menzo waiting for their stage cue. |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 04 Oct 2012 : 19:15:01
|
| That's pretty much my thought. An army of succubi would go on an orgy spree and vamp every male in sight (not that the matrons would care). An arm of bebiliths kill lots and lots of things, and stomp buildings flat. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2012 : 04:39:58
|
I believe the lorebooks specifically said that the Menzoberranyr summoned and gated the demons "into" Blingdenstone. That would point to a formation of drow personnel surrounding the gnome city, and then the demons appearing either right outside the city and then magically transporting inside, or appearing within the city in the first place.
There doesn't seem to be any indication of a longterm binding and caravanning of demons, there. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2012 : 18:06:42
|
BEAST,
That's the way I read it too, I was just looking for a consensus. Thanks for the input! |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
|
|
|
Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2013 : 03:33:32
|
Beast (et al),
As my epic time traveling 'save the deep gnomes' adventure has just ended (yep, that took around a year of every other weekend play to accomplish, quite a bit more than I envisioned that's for sure) I thought I might update this post a bit with the results of said adventure and perhaps even share a little bit of the story one of my players and I were moved to write about it all.
So, here goes it. What happened is:
- some of the players tried their best to warn the gnomes about the impending threat without giving away the exact source of their information (and getting dismissed as loons or locked away as traitors) - they also dragged certain surface representatives (using their relationship with a Chosen of Mystra, etc) and token troops (50 dwarves and a like number of Knights in Silver - and ultimately even Drizz't himself) to the aid of the city in an attempt to forge an alliance to defend the gnomes
- at the same time, unknown to them, other players in the group stumbled upon the participation of Bregan D'aerthe as scouts, spies, and pathfinders for the upcoming drow assault - thinking they could 'reason' 'negotiate' or somehow 'outwit' the band, they entered into secret negotiations with the band's leadership - this lead to their being fed information on how best to 'thwart' the coming drow attack
- the group spent many a day and night exposing drow movements, blocking drow scouts, discovering drow plots, freeing slaves that were to be used in foul drow summoning rituals and all in all being a thorn in the side of the drow as they gathered for their strike
- at the same time... the 'peacemaking' faction, in the interest of 'transparency' and in a B'DA suggested move to 'show the matron mothers that the gnomish leadership meant them no ill will through their alliance with surface forces' agreed to do B'DA's front man a favor - planting a 'magical listening device' in the heart of the deep gnome Center House - the council chambers
- the drow armies marched (out in the open), the surface coalition fought a desperate rear guard action (inflicting outsized causalities on the drow) to defend the approaches to the city, the players patted themselves on the back for freeing the slaves destined to power a large demon summoning ritual, they even used a scroll taken from a defeated drow master summoner to call a powerful good outsider to their aid - the deep gnomes securely closed the mighty gates to their city with the players and other surfacers locked up safely within to withstand any drow assault...and then...
- the device the peacemaking/overly clever players smuggled into the city (and which had gone missing when they later sought to quietly retrieve it before they attempted to slink away from town...) triggered punching a hole in the city's wards and allowing a small group of demons to gate in...
- the whole group of players (while kicking their overly clever fellows now languishing in Blingdenstone's dungeons) fought a valiant action to track and destroy those demons...but some got away...and opened other gates...and let in more demons...
- in the end, the players fought it out, paid a great cost, and stood as heroes as the gnomes of the city sought time to flee through their final escape tunnels (tunnels held open only through the mighty, and utterly offscreen, actions of one well known dark elf ranger) - many many lives were saved, and the city...well that's a story for another day
All in all, I (we) thoroughly enjoyed the adventure. Hopefully our actions can provide a fitting (if utterly unofficial, Lol) version of the events surrounding the fall of the City of Blinding Stones - better than the treatment she received in the 3E transition anyway. For those interested in hearing more, I'm toying with following with a snippet of the fictional tale. A humble thank you to all the scholars whose ideas on this post guided my DMing plotting and scheming of the event. Sweet water - light laughter to you all. |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
Edited by - Kris the Grey on 17 Jul 2013 04:07:50 |
|
|
|
Joebing
Learned Scribe
USA
202 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2013 : 04:25:22
|
On the topic of Blingdenstone...
I noticed a few canon issues later as well, in the D&DNext playtest adventure "Reclaiming Blingdenstone". According to everything I have read from 3.x on Mithral Hall, many of the svirfneblin went there, however, the playtest says fewer than a thousand escaped, finding refuge in Silverymoon.
Also, it mentions how a century prior, Blingdenstone fell. Now if we say it fell, according to canon, in late 1370/early 1371 DR, this would place the playtest in 1470-71 roughly, which is PRIOR to 4e (1479 DR).
Can anyone figure how this works in?
Kris, the adventure sounded great. Might just work something like that into my 3.5 campaign... |
Now plugging away on mass conversion to 5e, as well as my imprint J. Halk Games.
http://www.facebook.com/JHalkGames
First adventure on DM Guild: Lair of Elaacrimalicros |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Ideas on the Assault on Blingdenstone?
