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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Aug 2012 : 11:17:51
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| ok, back to topic, I started changing the factions and decided that the Preservers will be more influential. Based on that death cult from Bhaluin mentioned in the Horde, it could be one of the Imaskari philosophies that survived in the city. Not only that, the philosophy evolved into the Whispering Way (from Pathfinder) among their more radical members. The cult from Bhaluin shares some similarities with the Dustmen as well, so I'll include the possibility the Preservers split off from them in the past. The Blood of Vol from Eberron is another possible branch. I think the best location for the HQ is the Bones of Night in the Lower Ward, if not too creepy for recruitment. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2012 : 18:21:40
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Is the thread about PS/Sigil, the Imaskari, or both? I'm getting a bit lost LOL.
I usually don't bother with other planes when I game, so Sigil isn't my cup of tea (I like it, but I wouldn't run it). As for the other stuff you are doing - working the Imaskari into Sigil and the various factions, I think I may steal some of that and spread it between Netheril and Imaskar (for my Misbegotten Realms). On that world, the Great Conflagration happened between those two empires.
I also had another idea last night (while reading Crypt of the Shadowking) - the Talfurions; a cross between the Talfir and Furions of the Riddick movies. Not sure if you could use that, but I figure since I am getting ideas from your stuff, I may as well share one of mine. I have it where Thaeravel arose from the ancient Talfir (who were shadow-casters). Not sure how you could work any of that in though - I've intertwined my Netherese/Imaskari history. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Aug 2012 18:22:27 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2012 : 09:53:13
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The thread is about an alternate history version of Sigil, the one where the Imaskari had a greater influence on the city. And it's also about how would the Imaskari build their planar hub, for example is the torus the ideal shape for them, or something else, would they restrict which type of beings can enter inside, would they allow temples, would there be temples to concepts rather than to the gods cause there's so many pantheons, would constructs be more efficient than the dabus, how much would the level of technology increase, would the fey influence create different factions etc. things like that, speculations. The campaign will be in one huge city, no planar travelling.
The Great Conflagration between them seems interesting. Eventually for the campaign I plan to use conflicts between different magical traditions, that could be useful for your Imaskar vs. Netheril, maybe.
Furyans, if I remember they gained strength from rage, I've thought about adding one such faction that originated from the fey, that gains power through emotions, kinda like the Sith. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2012 : 20:40:00
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If you take a look at my Misbegotten (Frankensteined) Realms, you can see how such a conflict was unavoidable between the two. In my history, Thaeravel was a northern outpost/colony of Imaskar, which was destroyed by the rising power of the Netherese (who were of Gur/Rhaumvari descent). The Thaeravelite Imaskari were know for dabbling with shadow-magic, whic is why those Artificers preferred to be removed from mainstream Imaskar society (It was also founded by Halaster). I pretty-much managed to keep the history of both intact while intertwining them.
I also use a minimal amount of interloping in my version, but thats fodder for another thread.
Have you the excellent resource Beyond Countless Doorways? I think The Nexus is an an excellent candidate for an Imaskari artifact. It may have been the precursor of Sigil itself, or it could have been modeled on Sigil (basically, just a 'place' that leads to every other place, and a very good concept to base a Planeswalker campaign upon).
And speaking of Planeswalking, you may want to take a look at some of the MtG lore; a lot of it is very, very good. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Aug 2012 20:40:46 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2012 : 23:17:36
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Halaster was against shadow magic, he exposed that mage that attempted a coup. Also not sure he was born before Thaeravel. Well I guess you're not that strict with canon looking at the Frankenstein Realms. Thaeravel spellcasters were sorcerers, that could connect them to the Imaskari, they could've had outsider blood, tough I remember from somewhere it was draconic. Interesting that both realms had people that transformed into phaerimm.
I read Beyond Countless Doorways years ago, that architect could be an urban legend in Sigil, thanks for the suggestion.
I did not know MtG had lore, do they have a manual of ''planeswalking'' or you have to collect info from the cards? I see some of their artwork looks very useful, best angel and ultroloth pictures ever. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2012 : 23:41:00
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I stumbled upon the MtG lore (I also had no idea there was lore, or how good it was) a couple of years ago, and a LOT of it is very useful (and I can't believe they never married MtG to D&D in some fashion - I think the synergy could have been amazing).
You can start HERE, with the wiki entries, Read that, and then Google the individual names of places and sets. Like I said, I found it by accident - I'll try to find some of it again. usually they did nice articles for each set that was released - the background lore for that set. Not sure if this carried forward after Hasbro too over.
EDIT: I found some of it HERE, but that isn't the format of the articles I recall reading. However, they have changed their site several times so that might be them in a different format. That was the plane I became interested in (for Fey lore). However, you might be better off starting with Mirrodin, which applies to some of the things you are trying to accomplish in this thread (a plane with flora/fauna made from living metal). If nothing else, some of the artwork is very inspirational.
EDIT2: Ravnica also pertains to the thread topic (a world covered by city).
EDIT3: Found the art gallery for a guy who did some of the Ravnica art - the second pic is definitely useful for Sigil, but they are all pretty cool (and give me lots of ideas). I really like the concept of 'Razor Grass' from Mirrodin myself (there is one illustration of that there). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Aug 2012 23:54:17 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 16:16:10
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| Read it, and then found a wiki page, I think that's all besides the novels. The hollow world idea in Mirrordin seemed interesting, I'll keep the torus tough, it did give me an idea for a spinning torus that creates artificial gravity. Found another excellent artificer picture. The fey plane has the best story from what I've read. And the Ravnica plane I guess it was inspired by Sigil, the guilds at least. Ravnica is a funny name, in my language it actually means ''plane'' or ''plain''. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2012 : 20:20:49
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I just like the idea of marrying the Planeswalker lore and concept to Sigil and PS - it works very well.
They/we could just say that the worlds thus discovered by the Planeswalkers is just a small corner of the universe. In fact, one world (Equilor) could actually be within the normal PS universe, going by the description (how remote it is from the others).
If they wanted to put the two together (D&D and MtG), they could just say the Planeswalkers have finally discovered the Outlands and Sigil. That would be the simplest way. The harder way would be to try and shoe-horn MtG's planes in D&Ds, but I think that would cause way too much backlash amongst the MtG fans. Perhaps the simplest way would to actually just say Ravnica is what MtG Planeswalkers call Sigil - its a big city, and there are probably entire sections unknown to folks who live in other sections (and Sigil could easily be world-sized). On the other hand, the topography wouldn't work (there is no 'sky' in Sigil). That could work for our home-games (and your version of Sigil), but not for the D&D and MtG lore in-general.
Or you could just say that the 'Ravnica district' has an illusion of sky over it.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Aug 2012 20:21:21 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 11:51:38
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Sigil is 20 miles long, not really impressive, that's nothing compared to a world-sized city. Theoretically the Lady of Pain can increase its size, and maybe a lot of space within the city is extradimensional. For my version I think the best way is to enlarge the torus height 10-15 times, and width even more, so it can have decent atmosphere (and population). The high-tech ward would then be above the clouds, in ''space'', the medium being like in the Astral.
Including MtG worlds into the Wheel is easy, not more than the Beyond Countless Doorways stuff. If not then like you said in the other thread Aether and the Ethereal seem to have the same traits. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 20:28:15
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Really? I thought it was bigger. maybe I should have taken the shrink-wrap off my Planescape boxes. 
I had a lot of PS stuff, but only read-through the few things that interested me, or pertained to something I was trying to do. I know most of the basics (having read through the main campaign set), but when it comes to details my knowledge is pretty sparse.
I always took the maps showing Sigil and the Outlands literally (and that Torus looks pretty damn big in those pics). How big are the Outlands?
I know its one of the few Outer Planes that isn't 'infinite', but I still thought it was world-sized, at least.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2012 : 23:44:03
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Nah, that picture is only symbolic. The Outlands is full of paradoxes, the Spire is infinitely tall, yet you can see its top, the plane is infinitely large, but still it has a center (the Spire), also distances between two sites/towns could be enormous, yet the travel always takes 3d6 days.
Personally I never was a fan of infinite planes, causes too much problems. Pathfinder only has Maelstrom (their version of Limbo) as infinite, think that's an improvement. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 16:48:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
I'm tired of the medieval, my pc in the Kingmaker campaign now is an inventor, and that kind of world is too restrictive (and the DM  ).
The Black Death would be redundant. Ever heard of the Grand Famine?
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2012 : 19:12:50
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They need a better voice-over at the beginning. It felt a bit flat for me.
Also not a huge fan of future-fantasy (dislike SW, if thats any indication). I like my fantasy fantasy, and my scify scify. I am starting to lean toward steampunk as an acceptable compromise.
Don't get me wrong - a great yarn is a great yarn, no matter when/where it is set, but for my RPGing and like my worlds to be a bit more homogenized (weird, I know). Magi-tech is just too outside the norm for my tastes (even though I know D&D/Vancian magic is based precisely on that).
That being said, the premise sounds interesting, and I'd probably steal from it, but I prefer something a bit more mechanical. The 'story telling' systems out there never appealed to me, despite my own love of the RPing (and story-telling). There have been a lot of these simplistic systems done over the years, and none of them lasted very long. I need some numbers to crunch.
I have to wonder, though, if this was the direction Monte saw for FR's future, and this new setting of his has something to do with his leaving (since he said it had absolutely nothing to do with the rules). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Aug 2012 19:15:15 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 17:19:42
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| It's not about the mechanics, I collect any book with decent magitech, they're very rare. E.g. I think Eberron, Iron Kingdoms despite their reputation need a lot more stuff. Steam would not survive long in competition with magic. Worlds with high magic and nothing to show but medieval technology never were believable. I don't like to mix fantasy and sci-fi in a way where high tech elements stand out, with machine parts visible. Magical devices that blend in, where you can't tell whether it's a wizard's staff or an energy rifle, kind of like the Asgardians in Marvel, tough not that ugly. Most of my favorite fantasy worlds (Dying Earth, Briah, Bas-Lag, Earwa ...) have these things, so it's worth checking for me, and the art has potential. Do you think Stargates would be too sci-fi for the Imaskari? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 18:14:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
It's not about the mechanics, I collect any book with decent magitech, they're very rare. E.g. I think Eberron, Iron Kingdoms despite their reputation need a lot more stuff. Steam would not survive long in competition with magic. Worlds with high magic and nothing to show but medieval technology never were believable. I don't like to mix fantasy and sci-fi in a way where high tech elements stand out, with machine parts visible. Magical devices that blend in, where you can't tell whether it's a wizard's staff or an energy rifle, kind of like the Asgardians in Marvel, tough not that ugly. Most of my favorite fantasy worlds (Dying Earth, Briah, Bas-Lag, Earwa ...) have these things, so it's worth checking for me, and the art has potential. Do you think Stargates would be too sci-fi for the Imaskari?
I think the Iron Kingdoms explains it well enough to make it reasonable that magic hasn't overcome technology -- magic works, but it's much more difficult to make magical items than it is in other worlds. Hence the heavy reliance on mechanika and steam.
Healing magic is also much more difficult in the Iron Kingdoms, and bringing a person back to life is very risky for all involved. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 23:31:40
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Bizarrely, in my reading, I love fantasy-tech (or future-fantasy, take your pic). I just don't care for it in my gaming. Some of my favorites are Dying Earth, The Book of the New Sun, Majipoor, Pern, and even Dune (which is so far-future it reads like fantasy). I've used elements of all of those in my games.
I bought the FGU Aftermath rules years ago - that was great setting (or non-setting, actually). The system was so intense you could use it to duplicate any 'after the end of the world' scenario, from zombies to apes to machines. Unfortunately, I never got to play it (it was one of the few FGU games I didn't get to playtest). I like how the 'Survival aspect' changes the way adventures go. You aren't trying to get a chest full of gold - you were trying to find a damn can of soup (or whatever). You had to decide when you had to absolutely shoot your gun, because bullets were a very rare and limited commodity. I like the grunge feel of that.
Anyhow, I think Stargate is the perfect take on the Imaskari (in my Realms, the Imaskari ARE the Goa'uld).
Iron Kingdoms simply rocks. I miss my Cryx army. 
Other good series that use magi-tech are Chronicles of Amber and World of Tiers, both series lending a hand in the shaping of the Realms. Morcock tried a bit of this - when I read the Dream-thief's Daughter (IIRC) I had no idea it was a sequel to a novel I had read at least 25 years earlier - the first one took place during the Dark Ages (in Europe), and the other in modern times. I loved the first, the second not so much.
And I am currently reading The Law of Nines, because I liked Terry Goodkind's early SoT novels, and had hoped for something new. Turns out, this is just a modern-day sequel set on today's Earth (that constantly back-references the SoT tales). My advice is to stay away from it - it pretty wretched (and I got it for $2 in a clearance bin). Damn shame he turned out to be a one-trick pony. I'm not a fan of modern-horror, or modern-anything for that matter, and I really can't stand when they try to blend it with fantasy. Its like a really bad Scyfy channel movie (and thats BAAAAD). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Aug 2012 23:33:58 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 02:18:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Do you think Stargates would be too sci-fi for the Imaskari?
I don't believe so. The Imaskari have long been acknowledged as masters of portal manipulation and dimensional travel. I would imagine they have explored the possibilities of anchoring permanent portal networks to different worlds/planes via a network of powerful stone archways forged from an element that only they can mine and manipulate.
Of course, the notion that the Imaskari "borrow/stole" the notion of Imaskagates from a prior "ancient" race [the Lillendi, perhaps {I'll admit, I've thought about this relationship between stargates and the Imaskari before. Hehe.}], is simply too appealing not to properly consider. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 10:07:40
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| the Goa'uld could be something the kaorti created |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 14:38:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
the Goa'uld could be something the kaorti created
Actually, I tied the creation of the kaorti to Anubis, given his "Descended" essence and his knowledge of a higher dimension of existence. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 03:47:21
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I've stated numerous times in many threads that I happen to think all deities are ascended mortals (and that both primordials and deities should be considered 'gods'). In fact, 'god' is more of a job description then a power tier.
Anyhow, applying this to the Stargate lore, and then that to the D&D/PS cosmology, that means every pantheon started out as a world-specific group of mortals - usually family - who manged to ascend through the process of (hero) worship. This works perfectly for the Egyptian-like Goa'uld and the Asgardians (and just about all the other parts of the Stargate mythos).
Applying this to the Imaskari works for me - I have theorized that the egyptian pantheon itself is made up of ascended Imaskari archmages who were banished by the Imaskari for being too powerful (hence, the Godwall).
All of this also fits within the structure of such novel series as World of Tiers and the Chronicles of Amber - that certain families on some worlds have attained god-like powers, and now try to spread themselves to other worlds. Ergo, the universe is indeed filled with deities, many of them having originated on alien worlds, and at least one pantheon should have originated on Toril (probably more, if we go back to the Creators).
So what we get stuck with is a bunch of uber-powerful immortals who have more power then they know what to do with, but still behave badly in the same silly way mortals do. In other words, they are petty, vindictive, greedy, and power-hungry.
I've seen in canon Elminster 'summon' a goddess (no, not Mystra... I believe it was Eldath). I haven't read the series (yet), but I believe Szass Tam summoned Bane. In Claok of Shadows, Maluagrym were reading the minds of gods. And the summoner was able to pull a tear of Selune out of orbit, in much the same fashion as primordials did.
At those levels of power, there really isn't much difference between gods and mortals. In fact, the only difference is the power itself, which is arbitrary (and artificially boosted for gods because they can tap into their worshipers).
I guess the point I am trying to make - pertaining to the thread - is that I don't really need to decide if the Goa'uld are real gods are not, because to 'lowly mortals' there's no discernible difference. Somebody with that much power shows up and says, "worship me", you listen. "Goa'uld" simply becomes the Imaskari word for 'Artificer'.
EDIT: I like your thoughts on Anubis and Kaorti, Sage. I'm going to have to think on that, and see if it can be tied into my other musings on the Imaskari.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Aug 2012 03:53:33 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 12:28:57
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| I've always favored the Athar point of view on the gods, if there is something with real power it's unknowable so far. All these others while not exclusively of mortal origin, are outsiders. They can be summoned, tough Sigil has wards against this specific type of outsiders. |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 13 Sep 2012 : 16:51:19
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Do you scribes have ideas for new factions? I want to have 50, the number that was in pre-Great Upheaval days, so far have about 30.
''Quale'' won't be DM-ing this
Instead of his version of wards with different physical laws, I think it'll just be five cities existing in the same place, with a difference in phase. The main campaign area called the Cage, and others the Hive (steampunk-esque torus ship), the Below (undercity, cellar ward, vaults, aberrations ...), the Beyond (wild area), and the Expanse (tech-psionics). |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2012 : 01:34:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Marc
Do you scribes have ideas for new factions? I want to have 50, the number that was in pre-Great Upheaval days, so far have about 30.
I've partially fleshed out a faction that's popped up in my games from time to time -- called the Relativists.
I'll see if I can find my old PLANESCAPE notebooks. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Imaskari city and the city
