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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 06:26:52
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... and what does he do next?
Although I am running 4E Realms, this could apply in any edition or any era.
I've been wanting to run a campaign involving the death of the current visible Manshoon and his replacement by a clone, actually a clone of lower level (think of this as a result of a weaker or flawed clone spell or ritual).
What does a clone do when it wakes up? Is it aware that it's a clone? Does it have a sense that it may have woken up a number of years (or decades) after its creation?
What drives it?
Like a time traveller in certain books, movies or TV shows does it start trying to find out what year it is?
Does it try and find out more about its predecessor's death?
Does it wonder about the state of the Zhentarim?
How quickly would it start looking for one of its caches of magic to start re-equipping itself?
Has anyone ever used an awakened clone in a campaign? If so, are these the sorts of things you were thinking about?
(Some readers might be put off by the use of "it" rather than "he" but I suppose I am still thinking of the clone as a creation at this point rather than as an individual [and to make it easier to identify the predecessor vs the clone]).
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Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 07:07:15
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I think the Stasis Clone (spell?) caused a clone to seek conflict with other clones.
Given that it's been a century + the Spellplague was unleashed, it's quite possible this effect could have worn off or been altered to any other sort of compulsion that a DM would find most useful. 
Being a lesser clone, you can alter Manshoon's typical behavior and personality. For example, when Orlak II/Manshoon (also a lesser clone) awoke, he was "somewhat more prone to outbursts, self-indulgence, whimsy, and gratuitous cruelty." (Cloak & Dagger, page 49)
I absolutely think this clone will hunt for caches of magic and spellbooks at the earliest opportunity. Given that you're in the 4E Realms, the clone may very well be disappointed.
However if you have a cool idea for why the original Manshoon secreted this clone away where he did, you can simply decide enough magic is available (however warped it might be from the Spellplague) to re-equip this latest Manshoon before he gets down to the business of exploring his surroundings.
In this I think he'll quickly catch on that much time has passed. Being arrogant, I think he'll view this not as a difficulty, but as a grand opportunity to inflict himself on an unsuspecting world that was far, far too foolish to forget he existed.
Hope this helps.
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 07:39:21
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Thanks, Jeremy. Good points about the personality changes. I am thinking he might be a bit more paranoid than before and more uncertain of his own power.
(Both clone and stasis clone compelled the clone[s] to seek conflict. I'm going to use the Spellplague to wave that away... either that or it's another flaw in the flawed ritual. [I wouldn't be surprised if I end up with a new round of the Manshoon Wars. At least my Manshoon miniature will get a lot of use!]) |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 11:03:03
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I think the first thing an awakened clone would do would be find a restroom. 
The only time a Manshoon clone was compelled to seek out other clones was during the Manshoon Wars, and that was also based on proximity. Before that, only a single clone would wake up at a time, so there was no need to seek out others.
Also, being something other than a living Manshoon clone would negate the effect. If a clone turned himself into an elf, for example, or became undead, there's no more compulsion to kill other Manshoons.
Clones would also have the memories and experience Manshoon had when the clone was created, unless they were later updated.
I don't know of anything that says a clone was anything other than a perfect copy of the original -- I think the reason we have one that's different is because that one became a vampire. |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 12:29:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert (snip) Clones would also have the memories and experience Manshoon had when the clone was created, unless they were later updated.
I don't know of anything that says a clone was anything other than a perfect copy of the original -- I think the reason we have one that's different is because that one became a vampire.
I'm thinking of an imperfect clone spell (3.5E or earlier) or ritual (4E) that leads to the clone being less than a perfect copy, rather in the same way the 1E simulacrum spell resulted in a less than perfect copy.
That part I've got fairly fixed in my mind at the moment. I'm just hoping some folks here might have ideas about what the clone would do once it woke up.
I'm assuming it knows it's a clone. I'm further assuming that it believes that its creator is therefore dead. Knowing what little I know about Manshoon from reading pretty much everything I have been able to find about him on this site I could imagine that he would try and find a few caches of magic first to ensure that he is properly equipped and then he would try and find out more about how the Zhentarim stands and his place in it.
Right now, I plan to have the clone awaken in an extra-dimensional space in the ruins of the Citadel of the Raven. It's the year 1479 DR and this clone was created in 1355 DR, immediately after Zhent treachery led to the massacre of the non-Zhents in the citadel. Manshoon 1355 DR is therefore expecting to find that he is the ruler of a mighty fortress with a veritable army at his command. Instead he finds himself in a large set of ruins with fewer than 100 Zhents ready to do his bidding.
(I do stress that the edition I choose to use, and the fact that this is after the Spellplague, has nothing to do with the question I am asking. It all boils down to, "What would a clone of Manshoon do once it has woken up?")
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Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 15:10:36
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Occured to me that you could use the spellplague/manshoon clone plots together to take any one missing NPC and bring them back ala Xavier in X-Men 3. In fact, that's probably great way for a certain disembodied [spoiler] to get a body back. I guess you could read "great" as tacky, also, though.
Alternatively, there is probably a point where Manshoon was less evil or even potentially good. Okay, that might require complete amnesia (and now we're doing last season of True Blood). That would make an interesting clone.
In our campaign, I had the mad sorcerer in the pyramid north of Phlan creating ideal clone bodies for Tyranthraxus. He was making clones of Anton (from the novel, but I adjusted to be a Cormaeril) as a base. Two such clones were rescued - one almost completely empty (enough knowledge to function, understand but not speak, and fight). The other had been crammed full of various memories from the sorcerer's victims (Ranthor, Denlor, etc). The empty clone was possessed by the ghost of Ferran Martinez during T's attack on Phlan (he wanted to help people) and he's been stuck in that body for the last 10 years.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 18:06:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Derulbaskul
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert (snip) Clones would also have the memories and experience Manshoon had when the clone was created, unless they were later updated.
I don't know of anything that says a clone was anything other than a perfect copy of the original -- I think the reason we have one that's different is because that one became a vampire.
I'm thinking of an imperfect clone spell (3.5E or earlier) or ritual (4E) that leads to the clone being less than a perfect copy, rather in the same way the 1E simulacrum spell resulted in a less than perfect copy.
That part I've got fairly fixed in my mind at the moment. I'm just hoping some folks here might have ideas about what the clone would do once it woke up.
I'm assuming it knows it's a clone. I'm further assuming that it believes that its creator is therefore dead. Knowing what little I know about Manshoon from reading pretty much everything I have been able to find about him on this site I could imagine that he would try and find a few caches of magic first to ensure that he is properly equipped and then he would try and find out more about how the Zhentarim stands and his place in it.
Right now, I plan to have the clone awaken in an extra-dimensional space in the ruins of the Citadel of the Raven. It's the year 1479 DR and this clone was created in 1355 DR, immediately after Zhent treachery led to the massacre of the non-Zhents in the citadel. Manshoon 1355 DR is therefore expecting to find that he is the ruler of a mighty fortress with a veritable army at his command. Instead he finds himself in a large set of ruins with fewer than 100 Zhents ready to do his bidding.
(I do stress that the edition I choose to use, and the fact that this is after the Spellplague, has nothing to do with the question I am asking. It all boils down to, "What would a clone of Manshoon do once it has woken up?")
I know it's not what you're asking about, but there are two issues with your idea...
One is that Manshoon's clones are created with the spell stasis clone, which allows for perfect clones, that can have the memories and experience updated at a touch from the caster.
The other issue is that all of his clones woke up in 1370, which caused the Manshoon Wars.
So for your idea to work, and to track with canon, you'd have to explain why he created this clone differently, and how it didn't wake up with the other 40 or so in 1370.
An alternative might be a lesser clone that he created and imprisoned for some reason, perhaps as an experiment or a diversion. This gives the same basic idea, without continuity issues.
I would imagine that such a clone would know it was a clone, would know it wouldn't be awake unless the previous one was dead, and would first do two things: make sure it was powered up with spells and magic goodies, and then find out what was going on. I'd not expect a clone to know how much time had passed, but I'd expect them to understand that time had indeed passed. This is one of the reasons a clone would first assess the situation: he would need to know what was going on, and if possible how the previous Manny died, to avoid the same thing happening again.
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 18:18:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert (snip) I know it's not what you're asking about, but there are two issues with your idea...
One is that Manshoon's clones are created with the spell stasis clone, which allows for perfect clones, that can have the memories and experience updated at a touch from the caster.
The other issue is that all of his clones woke up in 1370, which caused the Manshoon Wars.
So for your idea to work, and to track with canon, you'd have to explain why he created this clone differently, and how it didn't wake up with the other 40 or so in 1370.
An alternative might be a lesser clone that he created and imprisoned for some reason, perhaps as an experiment or a diversion. This gives the same basic idea, without continuity issues. (snip)
The issue of why it is not a perfect clone was already addressed in my first post:
quote:
I've been wanting to run a campaign involving the death of the current visible Manshoon and his replacement by a clone, actually a clone of lower level (think of this as a result of a weaker or flawed clone spell or ritual).
If you're familiar with 1E's simulacrum you would know where I was coming from. This is not the result of a stasis clone spell.
I'm not worried about the continuity issues as such as this is purely a home game (I've handwaved it away as it being the result of the clone's storage in an extradimensional space - it couldn't hear the alarm to wake up, so to speak).
However, I love your idea about the clone having been imprisoned. For my game, I am having Manshoon be woken up by another party (I won't go into how or why here for fear of upsetting the purists) so the idea of that other party casting freedom would also work.
quote:
(snip) I would imagine that such a clone would know it was a clone, would know it wouldn't be awake unless the previous one was dead, and would first do two things: make sure it was powered up with spells and magic goodies, and then find out what was going on. I'd not expect a clone to know how much time had passed, but I'd expect them to understand that time had indeed passed. This is one of the reasons a clone would first assess the situation: he would need to know what was going on, and if possible how the previous Manny died, to avoid the same thing happening again.
Thanks for this. This is exactly the sort of ideas I was after. |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 18:22:32
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Wooly,
So, I love sticking to canon as close as possible, but you just found my line. :) It turns out I prefer to always ignore the word "all" when used in canon. I guess I also prefer to ignore "only," as well. So, that being said the first issue solves the second. Why didn't it wake up during the Manshoon Wars? Because it was created differently. It's all the more reason why it should be an earlier clone build that the later ones. It's part of the development process to get to the stasis clone spell. |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 18:23:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhewtani
Occured to me that you could use the spellplague/manshoon clone plots together to take any one missing NPC and bring them back ala Xavier in X-Men 3. In fact, that's probably great way for a certain disembodied [spoiler] to get a body back. I guess you could read "great" as tacky, also, though.
Alternatively, there is probably a point where Manshoon was less evil or even potentially good. Okay, that might require complete amnesia (and now we're doing last season of True Blood). That would make an interesting clone.
In our campaign, I had the mad sorcerer in the pyramid north of Phlan creating ideal clone bodies for Tyranthraxus. He was making clones of Anton (from the novel, but I adjusted to be a Cormaeril) as a base. Two such clones were rescued - one almost completely empty (enough knowledge to function, understand but not speak, and fight). The other had been crammed full of various memories from the sorcerer's victims (Ranthor, Denlor, etc). The empty clone was possessed by the ghost of Ferran Martinez during T's attack on Phlan (he wanted to help people) and he's been stuck in that body for the last 10 years.
Thanks for the ideas, Rhewtani.
Following something I read here yesterday I've got the pyramid set aside as a spellweaver ruin.
I've also already picked out Tyranthraxus's latest victim.  |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 18:49:20
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Do tell, if it's safe to do so. I've both played and run a game with Tyranthraxus in it. The one I played in very much ended up with the whole "he who must not be named" flare to him. I also remember us "defeating" him at Valjevo and later boarding a ship for Cormyr, only to see a friendly NPC's (who was staying behind) eyes flash with that evil fire light as they let loose the moorings. So far, the group I run has defeated him at Phlan and one group ended up witnessing the rakshasa ritual in Myth Drannor that happens in the Pools of Darkness video game. This will all be build up to the eventual Curse of the Azure Bonds.
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2012 : 19:03:51
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Some more "Manshoon wakes up and does what?" thoughts follow:
Manshoon seems to have an affinity for beholders. Whether he’s being bossed around by them or mind-controlling them, where there’s a Manshoon, beholders and beholder-kin follow close behind. Not sure what level you’re playing, but a few beholders always gives PCs the willies in my experience.
Manshoon, upon awakening, will likely figure out who is in power and try to depose them. It’s not unknown for him to assume the guise of those he deposes. There might be an angle here for lining up the PCs against Manshoon’s minions, then eventually a big fight with him. Or the PCs might end up serving Manshoon’s interests, when they think (initially) it’s the interests of a trusted patron.
Also upon awakening, Manshoon will likely seek out mages of power who are rivals (or can be made to become rivals) and manipulate them to do battle, so he can swoop in and slay the victor and take over both mage’s places of power or pick through their magic. If the PCs are friends or related to one of these mages, this might be a chance to put the PCs on Manshoon’s trail in terms of investigating a mentor’s fate or for vengeance purposes. Or perhaps the multi-mage conflict unleashes some bound monster or other danger that Manshoon ignores but that the PCs have to put down.
Manshoon has been known to set adventurers to hunting dragons, so the adventurers can be slain while weakening the dragon just enough so Manshoon can swoop in and slay it, then take its (and the PCs) stuff. If you need a mysterious patron NPC who knows where all the cool loots are hidden, this is one way you can use Manshoon before the PCs figure him out/confront him.
Depending on where he’s located, Manshoon might try to re-found the remnants of the Zhentarim. If this Manshoon has a grudge against Bane (aka Fzoul) he might unleash his minions (the PCs?) to do some damage to the church of Bane.
Lastly, he might send the PCs to find and locate the places where he remembers his other clones were stored. The PCs don’t have to know why or what they‘re seeking, and if anyone or anything still cares to keep watch over these places for sign of Manshoon, he can use the PCs as bait to draw it out and determine what specific-to-him dangers still exist.
Hope this helps!
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 28 Jun 2012 19:04:20 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 02:24:43
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Simply because the conversation is hovering around this particular part of Manshoonville, I'll add this little tidbit from Ed about the updating process of Manshoon's clones:-
"With respect, folks, some of the discussion here is founded on incomplete understandings. The lower levels of various Manshoon clones aren't "mistakes." Manshoon's clones aren't created by the PHB clone spell, but rather by Manshoon's stasis clone spell (which has been detailed by Ed in 2nd Ed sources, and remember: FR lore isn't trumped by rules edition changes, so just because 3e and 3.5e have come along since then, it DOESN'T mean there isn't still a "stasis clone" spell used by Manshoon. Several scenes in Ed's novels detail the "awakening" of Manshoon's clones, which normally occurred only when the "previous" Manshoon died. The multiple clones, hidden all over the Realms (El has threatened Manshoon in published Realmslore that he knows where they all are), each have the levels, memories, etc. they had when created . . . so some of them are of FAR less power than 'more modern' Manshoons (so killing Manshoon DOES harm him). Manshoon adds new clones from time to time, but what happened with the Manshoon Wars was that all (or almost all) of the clones were awakened at once. Hence all the different levels, etc. To reiterate: there is no "transfer" of existing spells, memories, etc. to a newly awakened clone.
And yes, Manshoon IS the ultimate puppet master among non-liches and non-zulkirs, although there's something going on with Hesperdan that Ed hasn't revealed to us all, yet.
Not trying to rain on the parade here, just to correct things before too many assumptions in reasoning are made based on the wrong clone spell.
love,
THO" |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 04:49:12
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quote:
Originally posted by RhewtaniDo tell, if it's safe to do so. I've both played and run a game with Tyranthraxus in it. The one I played in very much ended up with the whole "he who must not be named" flare to him ... only to see a friendly NPC's (who was staying behind) eyes flash with that evil fire light as they let loose the moorings.(snip)
Jeremy's subsequent reply touched on it so I will expand on it. Perhaps I should put it in spoiler blocks so that the purists can ignore it? :)
I --love-- that visual of Voldemort'sTyranthraxus's return. I plan to have the PCs recover the Blade of Lathander in the first adventure so Tyranthraxus will be making an appearance through the campaign (the overarching arc is very much about Manshoon and the Zhents taking back the Ruins of the Raven and re-establishing themselves in the Moonsea North but I want a few minor arcs - such as newly reawakened Tyranthraxus - as well). Oh, and there will be flashing eyes.... :)
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer (snip) Manshoon seems to have an affinity for beholders. Whether he’s being bossed around by them or mind-controlling them, where there’s a Manshoon, beholders and beholder-kin follow close behind. Not sure what level you’re playing, but a few beholders always gives PCs the willies in my experience. (snip)
It's funny you mention that, Jeremy.
IMC, the leadership of Darkhold is made up of beholder mages that have learnt to polymorph into human or humanoid form. Their hive was destroyed by Shadovar and they effectively sought refuge within the Zhentarim. Of course, beholders don't seek refuge, per se, so they have come to dominate Darkhold with the blessing of now-destroyed Manshoon the Night King.
The "first among equals" of the beholder mages is behind the waking up of Manshoon. Why? Because beholders don't think like humans and don't really understand how to make an organisation like the Zhentarim work. It's better for them to have a Manshoon back. Manshoon, for them, is a known quantity and that leaves them time to devote to their real first love: farming. Like the beholders in that Eyes on the Realms article from a few months ago, these beholder mages enjoy farming various humanoids.
quote:
(snip) Or the PCs might end up serving Manshoon’s interests, when they think (initially) it’s the interests of a trusted patron.
We think alike. I have at least one adventure hook already half thought out that involves the PCs being tricked into accomplishing a fairly significant task for Manshoon believing that it will, instead, weaken the resurgent Zhentarim.
quote:
(snip) Also upon awakening, Manshoon will likely seek out mages of power who are rivals (or can be made to become rivals) and manipulate them to do battle, so he can swoop in and slay the victor and take over both mage’s places of power or pick through their magic. (snip)
Awesome. Thanks very much for this idea. This is exactly the sort of thing I was trying to include. Yes, that makes perfect sense.
quote:
(snip) Depending on where he’s located, Manshoon might try to re-found the remnants of the Zhentarim. If this Manshoon has a grudge against Bane (aka Fzoul) he might unleash his minions (the PCs?) to do some damage to the church of Bane.
Wow, we do think alike!
Yeah, he's going to rebuild the ruined Citadel of the Raven to do exactly that. The Banites in the region, when they find out, aren't going to stand for this so Mulmaster and the Banite faction of the Warlock Knights of Vaasa will eventually show up. It throws a few more factions into the mix which I rather like! :)
quote:
(snip) Lastly, he might send the PCs to find and locate the places where he remembers his other clones were stored. The PCs don’t have to know why or what they‘re seeking, and if anyone or anything still cares to keep watch over these places for sign of Manshoon, he can use the PCs as bait to draw it out and determine what specific-to-him dangers still exist. (snip)
Again, just the sort of suggestion I was looking for.
quote:
Hope this helps!
It sure does! Thanks again for your thoughts.
The Sage, thanks for posting that. That post of Ed's, in a sense, gave me the idea of a weaker Manshoon. I then remembered the progression, if you like, of cloning spells in 1E and 2E: simulacrum => clone => stasis clone. Combining the two thoughts I simply thought of this Manshoon clone being a result of one of the earlier, pre-stasis clone attempts at perfecting the cloning process.
Also, Ed's comments seem to indicate the existence of other clones and I think imply that a Manshoon outside of the prime material plane in which Toril is located and/or Realmspace is not affected by the normal compulsions created in an awakening clone. Thus the idea of storing it in an extradimensional space.
Anyway, thanks also for your comments.
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Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 05:17:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Derulbaskul
Also, Ed's comments seem to indicate the existence of other clones and I think imply that a Manshoon outside of the prime material plane in which Toril is located and/or Realmspace is not affected by the normal compulsions created in an awakening clone. Thus the idea of storing it in an extradimensional space.
Pretty much.
Ed's past confirmations on the existence of more Manshoon clones than have been officially detailed in the Realmslore, are scattered in his "So Saith Ed" archives. We also know, thanks to some past queries of my own, that one or two Manshoon clones have travelled to other worlds.
I've a long well-established Manshoon clone as a member of the Order of the Black Robes on Krynn. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 06:02:43
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| You just gave me a great idea (if I ever run GH again) - Rary the Traitor as a Manshoon clone. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jun 2012 06:06:00 |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 07:54:36
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I just read the write-up on Manshoon in the Epic Level Handbook and noticed this: "... He has redoubled his arcane researches, seeking ways to transfer his consciousness from one clone to another at will."
It then occurred to me that an awakened Manshoon clone would fairly quickly start to look for cloning magics before his enemies, known and unknown, tried to slay him once again. This would be even more important in the context of the background I am using because Manshoon is weaker than normal. (I've basically pegged him at 12th-level [edition is not important] based on 75% of the levels of the 16th-level Manshoon that created him.)
One of the 3.5E Dragon magazines had a fantastic article on spellweavers - Ecology of the Spellweaver - in support of one of the Dungeon adventures for the Age of Worms adventure path, The Secrets of the Soul Pillars. It seems that they're experts in the art of cloning. That would make spellweaver ruins of great value to any Manshoon, especially one trying to recreate the stasis clone spell of his more powerful alternate selves.
Thoughts? |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11704 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 15:01:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Derulbaskul
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert (snip) Clones would also have the memories and experience Manshoon had when the clone was created, unless they were later updated.
I don't know of anything that says a clone was anything other than a perfect copy of the original -- I think the reason we have one that's different is because that one became a vampire.
I'm thinking of an imperfect clone spell (3.5E or earlier) or ritual (4E) that leads to the clone being less than a perfect copy, rather in the same way the 1E simulacrum spell resulted in a less than perfect copy.
That part I've got fairly fixed in my mind at the moment. I'm just hoping some folks here might have ideas about what the clone would do once it woke up.
I'm assuming it knows it's a clone. I'm further assuming that it believes that its creator is therefore dead. Knowing what little I know about Manshoon from reading pretty much everything I have been able to find about him on this site I could imagine that he would try and find a few caches of magic first to ensure that he is properly equipped and then he would try and find out more about how the Zhentarim stands and his place in it.
Right now, I plan to have the clone awaken in an extra-dimensional space in the ruins of the Citadel of the Raven. It's the year 1479 DR and this clone was created in 1355 DR, immediately after Zhent treachery led to the massacre of the non-Zhents in the citadel. Manshoon 1355 DR is therefore expecting to find that he is the ruler of a mighty fortress with a veritable army at his command. Instead he finds himself in a large set of ruins with fewer than 100 Zhents ready to do his bidding.
(I do stress that the edition I choose to use, and the fact that this is after the Spellplague, has nothing to do with the question I am asking. It all boils down to, "What would a clone of Manshoon do once it has woken up?")
I know it's not what you're asking about, but there are two issues with your idea...
One is that Manshoon's clones are created with the spell stasis clone, which allows for perfect clones, that can have the memories and experience updated at a touch from the caster.
The other issue is that all of his clones woke up in 1370, which caused the Manshoon Wars.
So for your idea to work, and to track with canon, you'd have to explain why he created this clone differently, and how it didn't wake up with the other 40 or so in 1370.
An alternative might be a lesser clone that he created and imprisoned for some reason, perhaps as an experiment or a diversion. This gives the same basic idea, without continuity issues.
I would imagine that such a clone would know it was a clone, would know it wouldn't be awake unless the previous one was dead, and would first do two things: make sure it was powered up with spells and magic goodies, and then find out what was going on. I'd not expect a clone to know how much time had passed, but I'd expect them to understand that time had indeed passed. This is one of the reasons a clone would first assess the situation: he would need to know what was going on, and if possible how the previous Manny died, to avoid the same thing happening again.
Here's an idea for you on how this "odd" clone got created. Someone who was not Manshoon created it. Manshoon never knew about it, and they had performed a ritual to create a clone but not awaken it. They then planned to explore the mind of this clone once they had it properly bound both magically and physically. However, its creator was subsequently killed somehow, and due to some fool's accidental triggering, the clone is finally awakened. This clone was not tied into Manshoon's stasis clone network, and therefore when all the other clones awakened during the Manshoon Wars, this one continued to sleep. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11704 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 15:15:53
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Derulbaskul
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert (snip) Clones would also have the memories and experience Manshoon had when the clone was created, unless they were later updated.
I don't know of anything that says a clone was anything other than a perfect copy of the original -- I think the reason we have one that's different is because that one became a vampire.
I'm thinking of an imperfect clone spell (3.5E or earlier) or ritual (4E) that leads to the clone being less than a perfect copy, rather in the same way the 1E simulacrum spell resulted in a less than perfect copy.
That part I've got fairly fixed in my mind at the moment. I'm just hoping some folks here might have ideas about what the clone would do once it woke up.
I'm assuming it knows it's a clone. I'm further assuming that it believes that its creator is therefore dead. Knowing what little I know about Manshoon from reading pretty much everything I have been able to find about him on this site I could imagine that he would try and find a few caches of magic first to ensure that he is properly equipped and then he would try and find out more about how the Zhentarim stands and his place in it.
Right now, I plan to have the clone awaken in an extra-dimensional space in the ruins of the Citadel of the Raven. It's the year 1479 DR and this clone was created in 1355 DR, immediately after Zhent treachery led to the massacre of the non-Zhents in the citadel. Manshoon 1355 DR is therefore expecting to find that he is the ruler of a mighty fortress with a veritable army at his command. Instead he finds himself in a large set of ruins with fewer than 100 Zhents ready to do his bidding.
(I do stress that the edition I choose to use, and the fact that this is after the Spellplague, has nothing to do with the question I am asking. It all boils down to, "What would a clone of Manshoon do once it has woken up?")
I know it's not what you're asking about, but there are two issues with your idea...
One is that Manshoon's clones are created with the spell stasis clone, which allows for perfect clones, that can have the memories and experience updated at a touch from the caster.
The other issue is that all of his clones woke up in 1370, which caused the Manshoon Wars.
So for your idea to work, and to track with canon, you'd have to explain why he created this clone differently, and how it didn't wake up with the other 40 or so in 1370.
An alternative might be a lesser clone that he created and imprisoned for some reason, perhaps as an experiment or a diversion. This gives the same basic idea, without continuity issues.
I would imagine that such a clone would know it was a clone, would know it wouldn't be awake unless the previous one was dead, and would first do two things: make sure it was powered up with spells and magic goodies, and then find out what was going on. I'd not expect a clone to know how much time had passed, but I'd expect them to understand that time had indeed passed. This is one of the reasons a clone would first assess the situation: he would need to know what was going on, and if possible how the previous Manny died, to avoid the same thing happening again.
Here's an idea for you on how this "odd" clone got created. Someone who was not Manshoon created it. Manshoon never knew about it, and they had performed a ritual to create a clone but not awaken it. They then planned to explore the mind of this clone once they had it properly bound both magically and physically. However, its creator was subsequently killed somehow, and due to some fool's accidental triggering, the clone is finally awakened. This clone was not tied into Manshoon's stasis clone network, and therefore when all the other clones awakened during the Manshoon Wars, this one continued to sleep.
Thought on this a couple more minutes. What if this newly awakened clone created by someone else doesn't necessarily have free will in all things. What if he's had compulsions placed upon him to say resurrect his creator as well, and the reason he was captured in the first place was due to his cloning expertise. It could be a stretch, for instance why didn't the person just clone himself, but maybe the person was afraid he'd get the contingent affect wrong and create a clone that would kill him... anyway, just a thought. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 15:52:49
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Rary the Traitor? Hehe... I like it, Markustay. ;)
Great ideas, Sleyvas. Strangely enough that was an angle I had also considered early on in the process but reading your comments makes me want to think about it again. Thanks for your posts. |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 17:11:31
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Oh, Sleyvas, that is brilliant! I am loving that idea!
That is far, far better than my idea.  |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 29 Jun 2012 17:11:59 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 21:36:37
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So its a programmed clone... interesting. I have to wonder at what Manshoon would think about someone cloning him behind his back(s?)
quote:
Originally posted by Derulbaskul
Rary the Traitor? Hehe... I like it, Markustay. ;)
Great ideas, Sleyvas. Strangely enough that was an angle I had also considered early on in the process but reading your comments makes me want to think about it again. Thanks for your posts.
I'm surprised I never thought of that before. I have always pegged Mordenkainen as the real Khelben Arunsun (the Blackstaff's nephew, who presumably is living on Oerth), so it makes perfect sense to make a GH Manshoon the arch-enemy of the GH Khelben.
Rary's background doesn't precisely fit with Manshoon.. but then again, it doesn't precisely fit with what he turned into, either. here's my thoughts on this - either this was a young, inexperienced clone that somehow wound up in Ket on Oerth (lots of ways that could have happened), OR, the Manshoon clone left FR during the Manshoon Wars to escape the effect of the geas (to destroy the others), and killed Rary and took his place in the Circle of Eight. Both scenarios have potential, but the latter is more believable. I'd have to check the timelines to see if that works, though. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Jun 2012 21:36:59 |
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Derulbaskul
Senior Scribe
Singapore
408 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2012 : 18:59:44
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Today I re-read the Zhentarim origin story, if you will, in Realms of Infamy - So High A Price by Ed of the Greenwood. It starts with a meeting between Manshoon and a polymorphed beholder and highlights that beholders were a significant force in the creation of the Zhentarim.
Taking sleyvas's idea a bit further and combining it with this (and with my own desire to include beholders), what if this flawed clone was the result of the spells of beholder mages? Perhaps this clone is their insurance against Manshoon ever falling - or falling because they slew him because he had become too intractable - but they still want a Manshoon - a known quantity to them - as head of the Zhentarim. So, yes, it is a flawed clone but it is also a clone programmed to obey beholders without necessarily knowing that it is doing so (because the Manshoon part of the clone's personality would find this utterly repugnant).
Thoughts? |
Cheers
D
NB: Please remember: A cannon is a big gun. Canon is what we discuss here. |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 09:20:13
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What if we married all the Manshoon clones to all the Alias clones?
I think I just invented the FR version of 'Bizarro World'.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 10:55:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What if we married all the Manshoon clones to all the Alias clones?
I think I just invented the FR version of 'Bizarro World'.
Lot of lonely Manshoons under this plan... 40+ Manshoons, but only 13 Alias vessels. And of those 13, one is dead and three have significant others. (My version of the Waterdhavian courtesan would make a 4th who was off the market.) |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1266 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 20:20:59
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| I wonder what became of the Manshoon clone that took refuge with the Simbul in exchange for the stasis clone spell? |
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A clone of Manshoon wakes up...
