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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 03:52:22
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Yes, I also am something of an 'armchair' folklorist... so to hear about a source that I am unfamiliar with is quite intriguing. However, I like a little proof with my pudding; I try not to believe everything I read on the internet.
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Edited by - The Hidden Lord on 30 Oct 2012 04:07:42 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 04:02:47
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| In the interests of keeping this scroll as free from disruptive clutter as possible [and to reduce the further likelihood of the kind of problems which plagued the last iteration of this discussion coming to nest in this one], I've removed several of the more contentious posts. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 05:09:30
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I'm not happy with this flagrant disregard for my earlier directives about keeping any further disruptive behaviour to private channels.
Thus, I'm now forced to take more aggressive action. I ask for the offending scribe/s to keep this civil and return to the topic of this scroll, or I will be forced to impose yet another scroll sealing. And that's not really something I want to do. This is Erik's scroll, and I know he has high hopes for these these kinds of discussions.
Let's all try to remember that, eh? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 05:26:04
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| While we know some races like dragonborn are going back to Abeir after the Sundering, I'd like to see more books about tieflings. Erin M. Evans has been doing a great jobs with hers (so sorry, I am forgetting how to spell their names), and I loved Magadon from Erevis Cale, and Sarytha (sp?) from Blades of the Moonsea by Richard Baker. Novels featuring aasimar would be cool too. I haven't read much about them. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 05:43:59
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I wonder if Shar played a role in influencing Karsus to cast his spell. I don't think we've ever read it spelled out, but Shar could have had a hand in inspiring Karsus to move against Mystryl and kept it quiet.
Thoughts?
Cheers
I've always assumed that the Mad Power Grab of Karsus took Shar by surprise just as much as it did Mystryl. Though, this does bring up the kinds of question Dennis and I debated some time ago about what both the other deities and Ao him/her/itself really knew about the ambition of Karsus.
If Shar did in fact have a hand in prompting Karsus, then I suspect Ao would've known as well. Which then raises questions about why Ao didn't do anything to prevent Shar from causing such a catastrophic failure of the Weave.
Shielding yourself from the prying eyes of the gods is easier than siphoning a god's divinity. Karsus was mad, but not a dimwit. If he didn't protect himself from all manner of scrying (from his fellow archwizards and enemies in and out of Netheril) and divine prying, Mystryl, or any of her allies (who would have, logically, alerted her), would have been more prepared to deal with his Avatar spell.
Besides, I don't think Shar could have gained anything by having Karsus replace Mystryl. While Karsus didn't particularly dislike her, he was too arrogant, selfish, and independent to ally with her. And seeing that the Shadow Weave is a great source of magic, he'd likely take it from her too. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 06:25:51
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I've again been forced to remove several contentious posts from this scroll in order to ensure a more civilised progression, and to promote more on-topic discussion.
Thus, I'm hoping sincerely that this is the end of it. I've been assured by the scribes involved that their disruptive actions will proceed no further -- and I'm sure that I am not the only member here to be satisfied with this result.
So, let us now move on.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 15:27:08
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I'm glad we've stopped the rude/disruptive trend.
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I wonder if Shar played a role in influencing Karsus to cast his spell. I don't think we've ever read it spelled out, but Shar could have had a hand in inspiring Karsus to move against Mystryl and kept it quiet.
Thoughts?
I've always assumed that the Mad Power Grab of Karsus took Shar by surprise just as much as it did Mystryl. Though, this does bring up the kinds of question Dennis and I debated some time ago about what both the other deities and Ao him/her/itself really knew about the ambition of Karsus.
If Shar did in fact have a hand in prompting Karsus, then I suspect Ao would've known as well. Which then raises questions about why Ao didn't do anything to prevent Shar from causing such a catastrophic failure of the Weave.
Shielding yourself from the prying eyes of the gods is easier than siphoning a god's divinity. Karsus was mad, but not a dimwit. If he didn't protect himself from all manner of scrying (from his fellow archwizards and enemies in and out of Netheril) and divine prying, Mystryl, or any of her allies (who would have, logically, alerted her), would have been more prepared to deal with his Avatar spell.
Besides, I don't think Shar could have gained anything by having Karsus replace Mystryl. While Karsus didn't particularly dislike her, he was too arrogant, selfish, and independent to ally with her. And seeing that the Shadow Weave is a great source of magic, he'd likely take it from her too.
To clarify, nothing I've said or am saying here should be taken as "Shar was totally involved!" I'm just suggesting that it's possible and an interesting thing to tie into your games. I don't think we'll ever have a definitive answer, and there's really no way to prove Shar's involvement one way or the other. It's just a scholarly point for sages to debate. (Kinda like we're doing!)
A couple things:
1) As I envision it, Shar's "influence" would have been more like subtle promptings of "seize magic for yourself" or "you don't need Mystryl" that aren't directed to any particular course of action. Subtly making Karsus paranoid sets him on a path to do something really bad for Mystryl, and that he casts his spell is just an unexpectedly good result.
2) To play devil's advocate, I don't see why AO would intervene in the Karsus debacle. What would he have done, after all? Sided with a god who was being challenged by a mere mortal? How pathetic is that? It's like the high school senior running to help out a freshman being attacked by an ant in the quad.
Also what Karsus did was not to endanger all of Realmspace, which is AO's charge. AO would be under no obligation to protect a transient civilization of humans like Netheril, and protecting the Weave is Mystryl's job. The outcome of the events (a weakened goddess of magic, a modified Weave of magic) might have prompted AO to consider whether his influence would be needed, but up until that point, I see no reason to think he would have done anything.
Also, if anything, AO's lack of intervention points even more to a divine hand prompting Karsus. Is it AO's business to interfere in legitimate gripes between deities?
3) Divine scrying vs. mortal protection: We don't know exactly how this worked. Logically, one imagines that divine magic trumps mortal magic, but by that logic, Karsus's Avatar shouldn't have worked in the first place. We know Karsus was exceptional, and I'd like to keep him that way.
If Shar had a hand in Karsus's efforts, it might have been to shield him from scrying. It's also entirely possible that the gods were forewarned, but they had no reason to suspect Karsus's effort would actually work. Under that scenario, the gods were just as arrogant as he was.
4) What did Shar stand to gain by having Karsus's Avatar work? A lot. Best case, Karsus would replace Mystryl, a much weaker and inexperienced deity ripe for the plucking. She could either kill him or take him over as her dupe, which would increase her power dramatically. And with the world in crisis and Shar herself suddenly empowered, she could potentially win right there.
What actually happened was Mystryl respawning as Mystra, weakened but still kicking, and Shar was unable to seize power. Still, her foe wasn't as strong as before, so Shar was in a better position. She plays a very long game.
Related but tangentially, I would love to see Shar recede into the shadows a little bit again. She rose to considerable prominence in 3e and 4e, and I'd like to see her star diminish (though not go away). I'd like to see Shade knocked down from power a little, or--better--a religious schism splits them from Shar's tight control, leaving them a still existent but less direct agent. This doesn't mean she's defeated--certainly not--but maybe just delayed.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
While we know some races like dragonborn are going back to Abeir after the Sundering, I'd like to see more books about tieflings. Erin M. Evans has been doing a great jobs with hers (so sorry, I am forgetting how to spell their names), and I loved Magadon from Erevis Cale, and Sarytha (sp?) from Blades of the Moonsea by Richard Baker. Novels featuring aasimar would be cool too. I haven't read much about them.
Tieflings have been around since 2e, and I see no evidence they are going away any time soon. The Brimstone Angels are a pretty cool duo, and Erin definitely seems to have a good story going there. And while Mags isn't personally my favorite character from Erevis Cale (I prefer Erevis himself!), he is a focal point of some of the most innovative storytelling we've seen in the Realms in recent years. So I definitely want to see more of him.
I haven't actually read Baker's latest series, so I'm not sure of the reference. Are you referring to Sarya Dlardrageth, queen of the Daemonfey (from the Last Mythal series)? She is actually a half-sun elf, half-demon (not a tiefling), and her army of fey'ri (demon-touched elves) are kind of to elves what tieflings are to humans. Her army was mostly broken in the 1370s, but scattered remnants remain all throughout the Realms. I actually wrote a DDI article about this that should be appearing on the WotC site any day now.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 30 Oct 2012 15:28:01 |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2384 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 16:21:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Either pre-4e fans will complain it's the same 4e, or 4e fans will complain it's not the same 4e, or both. Those who are okay with either probably won't object anyway. [...]
[...] What I am advocating is that we try to pave the way forward whilst avoiding further retcons, for instance "remove the Spellplague era."
Thanks for the confirmation. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 19:56:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
4) What did Shar stand to gain by having Karsus's Avatar work? A lot. Best case, Karsus would replace Mystryl, a much weaker and inexperienced deity ripe for the plucking. She could either kill him or take him over as her dupe, which would increase her power dramatically. And with the world in crisis and Shar herself suddenly empowered, she could potentially win right there.
Inexperienced, yes. But weaker? I doubt that. He was already powerful enough as a mortal. By stealing Mystryl's essence, he had in turn all of Mystryl's power and control over the Weave. That made him a difficult prey. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 02:27:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
While we know some races like dragonborn are going back to Abeir after the Sundering, I'd like to see more books about tieflings. Erin M. Evans has been doing a great jobs with hers (so sorry, I am forgetting how to spell their names), and I loved Magadon from Erevis Cale, and Sarytha (sp?) from Blades of the Moonsea by Richard Baker. Novels featuring aasimar would be cool too. I haven't read much about them.
Tieflings have been around since 2e, and I see no evidence they are going away any time soon. The Brimstone Angels are a pretty cool duo, and Erin definitely seems to have a good story going there. And while Mags isn't personally my favorite character from Erevis Cale (I prefer Erevis himself!), he is a focal point of some of the most innovative storytelling we've seen in the Realms in recent years. So I definitely want to see more of him.
I haven't actually read Baker's latest series, so I'm not sure of the reference. Are you referring to Sarya Dlardrageth, queen of the Daemonfey (from the Last Mythal series)? She is actually a half-sun elf, half-demon (not a tiefling), and her army of fey'ri (demon-touched elves) are kind of to elves what tieflings are to humans. Her army was mostly broken in the 1370s, but scattered remnants remain all throughout the Realms. I actually wrote a DDI article about this that should be appearing on the WotC site any day now.
Cheers
Oh, I know they've been around awhile, I'm just saying I'd like to see more of them I loved Erevis himself too (and Riven), but I had a soft spot for Mags--maybe because he was a tiefling  He just always resonated well with me.
No, not Sarya. I read Last Mythal (awesome series, IMO), so I know who she is. The one from Blades of the Moonsea was a male, and a tiefling. It was Sar-something. I suppose I could go look. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 02:47:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Besides, I don't think Shar could have gained anything by having Karsus replace Mystryl. While Karsus didn't particularly dislike her, he was too arrogant, selfish, and independent to ally with her.
Perhaps.
Although since we know Karsus himself realised that he simply wasn't up to the task of managing such divine power, I'd have to question just why Shar would see him as an equal -- instead of some new plaything that she could willingly and easily manipulate under the guise of "helping him to adjust" to his new role.
quote:
And seeing that the Shadow Weave is a great source of magic, he'd likely take it from her too.
You can't be serious? Karsus couldn't even handle the Weave, and you're expecting him to take on the Shadow Weave as well?
Now I think you're really stretching things.  |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 02:49:43
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
While we know some races like dragonborn are going back to Abeir after the Sundering, I'd like to see more books about tieflings. Erin M. Evans has been doing a great jobs with hers (so sorry, I am forgetting how to spell their names), and I loved Magadon from Erevis Cale, and Sarytha (sp?) from Blades of the Moonsea by Richard Baker. Novels featuring aasimar would be cool too. I haven't read much about them.
Tieflings have been around since 2e, and I see no evidence they are going away any time soon. The Brimstone Angels are a pretty cool duo, and Erin definitely seems to have a good story going there. And while Mags isn't personally my favorite character from Erevis Cale (I prefer Erevis himself!), he is a focal point of some of the most innovative storytelling we've seen in the Realms in recent years. So I definitely want to see more of him.
I haven't actually read Baker's latest series, so I'm not sure of the reference. Are you referring to Sarya Dlardrageth, queen of the Daemonfey (from the Last Mythal series)? She is actually a half-sun elf, half-demon (not a tiefling), and her army of fey'ri (demon-touched elves) are kind of to elves what tieflings are to humans. Her army was mostly broken in the 1370s, but scattered remnants remain all throughout the Realms. I actually wrote a DDI article about this that should be appearing on the WotC site any day now.
Cheers
Oh, I know they've been around awhile, I'm just saying I'd like to see more of them I loved Erevis himself too (and Riven), but I had a soft spot for Mags--maybe because he was a tiefling He just always resonated well with me.
No, not Sarya. I read Last Mythal (awesome series, IMO), so I know who she is. The one from Blades of the Moonsea was a male, and a tiefling. It was Sar-something. I suppose I could go look.
I think his name is Sarth. As a side note, I'm pretty sure Magadon is a Cambion (half devil), not a Tiefling. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 02:53:06
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| Maybe that was it. I thought there was a y in there, but I could be wrong. Hmm...well when he and Cale were sitting around the campfire, Magadon showed him his horns, and he said he was a tiefling. Maybe he was a cambion, but I seem to remember him being called a tiefling. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 03:05:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
And seeing that the Shadow Weave is a great source of magic, he'd likely take it from her too.
You can't be serious? Karsus couldn't even handle the Weave, and you're expecting him to take on the Shadow Weave as well?
Karsus just needed some time to acclimate himself to his divine role (something he didn't get the chance to enjoy because Mystryl killed herself). After that, it would be relatively easy for him to take the Shadow Weave for himself. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 03:10:07
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Maybe that was it. I thought there was a y in there, but I could be wrong. Hmm...well when he and Cale were sitting around the campfire, Magadon showed him his horns, and he said he was a tiefling. Maybe he was a cambion, but I seem to remember him being called a tiefling.
As I recall, he's a cambion. And it looks like FRWiki agrees with me. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 03:12:28
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Maybe that was it. I thought there was a y in there, but I could be wrong. Hmm...well when he and Cale were sitting around the campfire, Magadon showed him his horns, and he said he was a tiefling. Maybe he was a cambion, but I seem to remember him being called a tiefling.
Yeah he tried passing himself off as a Tiefling and was able to because he didn't have any other fiendish traits. But, his father is a devil (an archdevil in his case) making him a half devil. Tieflings have some blood or infernal taint, cambions are the direct spawn of a human and a fiend. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 03:18:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
And seeing that the Shadow Weave is a great source of magic, he'd likely take it from her too.
You can't be serious? Karsus couldn't even handle the Weave, and you're expecting him to take on the Shadow Weave as well?
Karsus just needed some time to acclimate himself to his divine role (something he didn't get the chance to enjoy because Mystryl killed herself). After that, it would be relatively easy for him to take the Shadow Weave for himself.
The canon contradicts that. The canon states that Karsus knew immediately that he had made a mistake and could not handle it.
No matter how you spin it, no matter your personal desires on the matter, the canon Realmslore is that Karsus was flat out not up to the task, and even he knew it. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 03:46:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Maybe that was it. I thought there was a y in there, but I could be wrong. Hmm...well when he and Cale were sitting around the campfire, Magadon showed him his horns, and he said he was a tiefling. Maybe he was a cambion, but I seem to remember him being called a tiefling.
Yeah he tried passing himself off as a Tiefling and was able to because he didn't have any other fiendish traits. But, his father is a devil (an archdevil in his case) making him a half devil. Tieflings have some blood or infernal taint, cambions are the direct spawn of a human and a fiend.
Oh, okay, I see. It didn't say that, but I guess it makes sense, considering Mephistopheles was involved *shudders* there were some scenes in the Twilight Wars that greatly disturbed me, but Kemp did a good job, and I enjoyed the series. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 03:48:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
And seeing that the Shadow Weave is a great source of magic, he'd likely take it from her too.
You can't be serious? Karsus couldn't even handle the Weave, and you're expecting him to take on the Shadow Weave as well?
Karsus just needed some time to acclimate himself to his divine role (something he didn't get the chance to enjoy because Mystryl killed herself). After that, it would be relatively easy for him to take the Shadow Weave for himself.
How so? Karsus himself admitted that he wasn't up to becoming the next God of Magic. I don't see how you can apply a time factor when he already knew, right from the moment he ascended, that he couldn't handle it.
And I think it's a little disingenuous to suggest that it would be "easy for him to take the Shadow Weave for himself" when most other examples we have in the Realmslore of mortals assuming divine portfolios, have all be particularly harrowing affairs.
What's throwing me is that you're being so casual about Karsus coming to easily preside over both the Weave and the Shadow Weave. And yet, he'd already proved himself incapable of just trying to become one with only the Weave. How is he supposed to take on the Shadow Weave as well?
Karsus may have been a genius, and he may also have been powerful, but, again, I really think you're stretching the bounds of what's acceptable for him to accomplish in terms of the Realmslore. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 14:36:26
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Dennis, you clearly have a lot of faith in Karsus, and I know you're a fan of Netheril and wizards in general. Don't let the vociferous arguments get you down. Karsus will rise, and the Realms will tremble at his approach . . .
I mean, unless he doesn't.
To add further analysis:
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie4) What did Shar stand to gain by having Karsus's Avatar work? A lot. Best case, Karsus would replace Mystryl, a much weaker and inexperienced deity ripe for the plucking. She could either kill him or take him over as her dupe, which would increase her power dramatically. And with the world in crisis and Shar herself suddenly empowered, she could potentially win right there.
Inexperienced, yes. But weaker? I doubt that. He was already powerful enough as a mortal. By stealing Mystryl's essence, he had in turn all of Mystryl's power and control over the Weave. That made him a difficult prey.
I see you fall to the same hubris that prompted Karsus to think he could match a deity. (kidding!)
But seriously, on the deific stage (as in mortal life), inexperience = weakness, and I could envision Shar (or whatever other antagonistic god) taking out Karsus or enslaving him much more easily than the same could be done to Mystryl or even Mystra.
Even if Karsus somehow proved capable of taking over for Mystryl (which he himself admitted he could not do), I doubt he could take the Shadow Weave from Shar, much less "easily." Not even Mystra has been able to accomplish that.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 31 Oct 2012 : 16:08:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Don't let the vociferous arguments get you down.
Ah. So that's why my fellow work folk are always telling me to shut up.  |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2013 : 14:44:01
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Is this the thread where we try to 'fix' stuff? Its been awhile, and I know there was a couple (by Erik) with a similar theme.
Anyhow, I was looking into some stuff (big surprise there) and I needed to check Karsus' Eleven Dictionary (which I had thought was infallible), but alas, I ran into a problem. He has the prefix 'Cor' meaning 'grand'.
We have a mighty, ancient forest named Cormanthor, in which sits the forest kingdom of Cormanthyr. We also know that Cormyr literally translates to 'Forest Realm'. Now add in the fact that he has the word Vandor = 'Forest' (which I am sure he got from a canon source, since his entire dictionary is entirely based on canon).
Fix #1 - One's a word, and one's a prefix - that was simple enough. 'Vandor' (Vandora = plural) refers to 'any old clump of trees'. It just means a wooded area, and thats all - very generic. It would normally only be used by elves to describe a forest that does not belong to the Elves (to Elves, every forest is a kingdom - a Vandar would be something equivalent to 'an unclaimed kingdom')
Fix #2 - The prefix 'Cor' does mean grand, but it also means 'forest'. the problem stems from the fact we are not only trying to translate a word from another language, we are translating a word from another species, and a lot is getting lost in the process. The prefix 'Cor' means something akin to "as powerful and majestic as a Forest held in reverence by Tel'Quessir (The People)". Ergo, the prefix can be attached to an actual forest that has some importance to the elven people, or it can be attached to an honorific denoting some sort rulership over said forests. Thus, 'Coronal' actually means something closer to 'speaker of the trees', which has a very different meaning to elves then it would to a human (because trees are sacred, and are not ruled over, but rather, taken care of and defended). Once again, this is a racial/cultural thing - an elven 'kingdom' is nothing at all how a human perceives a kingdom. The name 'Corellon' could possibly stem from Cor Ellion*, which would roughly translate to 'high Lord of all forests' (and peoples). One must bear in mind Elves do not so much rule their lands, so much as they belong to them. They are its stewards. This relationship does not translate well into human tongues, so the closest any sage can come was the word 'grand' (which is close enough, but still somewhat inaccurate).
*which probably has a common etymology with eidolon |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2013 : 15:36:12
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I don't see an issue. Many languages have multiple words that mean the same thing.
Just in the English language, you have canine, cur, mutt, pooch, and dog all referring to the same thing, and the word hound is almost as generic. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2013 : 16:01:39
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Eidolon eh? As in idol or spirit-double?
That could mean that Corellon was originally an idol created by elves, a perispirit (the ethereal apparition that appear just before a spirit leaves the Material Primes) of some sort of warrior-hero? I always like to make gods spring forth from their worshippers needs (eventhough most myths claim creation stories attributed to being inititated by their creator god), as some kind of epic collective progammed illusion that gains autonomous self-awareness. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2013 : 16:39:57
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Yeah, that's what I was thinking - both probably have some root word in some forgotten Celestial tongue. I have a lot of fun creating linguistic connections in the lore I create.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't see an issue. Many languages have multiple words that mean the same thing.
Just in the English language, you have canine, cur, mutt, pooch, and dog all referring to the same thing, and the word hound is almost as generic.
But each has its mild connotations connected to it - thats what I was getting at. Both mean 'forest', but one's a very generic term (like 'dog'), and ones a 'grander' term (like 'pureblood').
The prefix 'Cor' means forest in a mystical sense - a way in which only Elves (and fey) can understand. So its more then just a language thing, its an alien-culture thing. (and now I am reminded of the interactions between the humans and the Na'vi from Avatar). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Feb 2013 16:41:55 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2013 : 16:51:35
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A couple thoughts:
1) All respect to Karsus (and for those who don't know me, let me assure you, I respect him a great deal), but his dictionary is NOT a canon source. Unless WotC has purchased it or otherwise endowed it with canon status and I haven't heard of it. That said, I am quite happy thinking of "cor" as meaning "grand" and "of the forest," see below.
2) Etymology is, at best, an interesting sagely pursuit. It is extremely rare that an etymological issue should ever be a "problem"--generally, it's when words are used to connote respect or feelings of equality when really they're steeped in the language of oppression or something like that. The fact that "Cor" can be seen to indicate "forest" or "great" isn't a problem, because it's generally a positive thing and neither of those is an insult to the object it is applied to. I fail to see how this is a "problem."
3) To engage with the discussion (which is fascinating), one could make the argument that "Forest" and "Grand" are so firmly linked in the elven psyche that both definitions of the word are valid. It's like how we might call someone "worldly" or "a man of the people" and have it be a compliment. Those things (the world, the good of all) we value extremely highly. For the elves, who value the forest and other growing things in the natural world, associating a person or thing with the forest is high praise indeed.
Just my thoughts.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 24 Dec 2013 : 09:52:59
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Hello Erik,
Resurrecting this thread, because I have a question or two.
In your very first post, you wrote:
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Statement of Vision: I believe strongly that the appropriate path forward for the Forgotten Realms is to create an all-inclusive vision of the setting that is open to all eras, and even all editions of the game.
The direction of 5e seems to be to produce a game that takes the best of every edition of D&D, and I think that's the way forward for the Realms as well.
Statement of Purpose: This thread is about discussing ways to connect lore from all the different eras to produce a Realms that fits my vision.
Since the last couple of posts prior to mine talk a little bit about words and etymology, I'm curious if you think there is any value in Realms products focusing--to any degree--on words, word history and how words and phrases change over time in the Realms.
Also, do you think there is any value in publishing (either in print or as a web enhancement) a sort of Realms dictionary? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Regcod
Acolyte
Italy
28 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2014 : 12:01:19
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This thread look like long ago discussed and abandoned, but many people already gave their impression and wrote down their wishes about what would see in the future Forgotten Realms.
Anyway, also if I'm in late, I would be happy to see back Eilistraee, Mystra and Helm, because they are three characteristics deity essential from my point of view. I'm just curious to know also how the Eilistraee's follower behaved after her demise and who whorshipped to keep their power (IF they changed at all deities), same thing for Helm.
The history holes are too much large now for playing with canonical history. There are a lot of hook for inspiration but, first at all there is the knowledge (curiosity :P) for knowing how they thought that period. |
"Sweet water and light laughter until next we meet." |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2014 : 00:27:21
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| Considering Corellon Larethian sat down for the grand sava game in Elistraee's place, it's entirely possible with their "deaths" he gathered his children into his arms again. For all we know, they are healing, relearning, reconnecting etc. in Arvandor. And neither of their followers were wiped out entirely. They may be reborn again. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2014 : 00:52:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
[...]he gathered his children into his arms again. For all we know, they are healing, relearning, reconnecting etc. in Arvandor. And neither of their followers were wiped out entirely. They may be reborn again.
Meh. I would accept anything at this point, considering how screwed up anything related to those events is. There's also THE SUNDERING!!! (i.e the solution to everything you may want to happen). Plenty of ways to get Eilistraee and Vhaeraun (or the Masked Lady) back, a fancy story can undo anything. Thing is WotC has to actually want them back, and Idk if they do... |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 24 May 2014 01:25:52 |
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One Canon, One Story, One Realms (5e) THE SEQUEL
