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TBeholder
Great Reader
2391 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Oct 2012 : 12:10:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
This thread is NOT about a retcon, a reboot, alternative timelines, or anything like that. There are plenty of threads to discuss these concepts. Please, if you want to bring up one of those concepts, go there. That's not what this thread is about.
I don't want to seem dismissive, but I will politely ignore suggestions of anything that breaks the continuity between the editions. We're looking at ways to pull things together, not break them apart.
This comes across as either preaching to the choir or weasel-wording around the main issue.
Retcons were already made and you can't both leave a retcon and un-retcon it at the same time. So, it's simply logically impossible to do.
Therefore, at this point it's impossible to make anything without including either old retcons or making new ones. And we all know there's no way everyone will be happy with all of them. Just like it was and is with 4e. Either pre-4e fans will complain it's the same 4e, or 4e fans will complain it's not the same 4e, or both. Those who are okay with either probably won't object anyway.
Anything else is "yes, but no, but yes" - mumbling the main question away without answering it.
The only way for this to end at least somewhat well would be the version solely dictated by Greenwood. It would still mean retconning out things, it's just that the "director's cut" would be more acceptable than any other cut. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2012 : 14:34:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
The conversation about the relationship among elves, fey, and orcs is an interesting one. Here are a couple of (non-Realmsian) concepts:
1) Norse mythology: "Dark elves" are underground smiths, kinda similar to our concept of dwarves, and a proto-vision of drow.
2) Beowulf: AFAIK, the first mention of "orcs" comes from Beowulf, where they are mentioned as a monster that Beowulf the hero has encountered/tricked/vanquished. This mention comes in the same breath as what we translates as "elves" or "fey" creatures. It depends a lot on your translation, but it's something that intrigued/boggled scholars, i.e., "what is the author of the story talking about?"
3) Tolkien: The professor's interpretation of Beowulf's "orcs" is to make them related to elves, as MT has discussed--twisted off-shoots of elves, but from the same progenitors. And as elves and fey are sort of interchangeable in Tolkien's world, that makes orcs a kind of fey too--a twisted dark fey, but fey of a sort.
4) D&D: Elves and orcs are two separate races bound together by implacable hatred. Elves are related to fey, depending on edition: earlier in the game, they were sort of distant cousins, but as time progressed they became a pseudo-mortal race of fey. I myself enjoy the ambiguity about orcs' origins, wherein they are kind of blended back to their mythic roots.
5) Pathfinder: I was surprised to discover that (as one of the editors assured me while I was writing "Proper Villains" for the setting) that elves in Golarion are NOT related to fey. This is probably because it was so deeply ingrained in my consciousness that elves came from fey backgrounds (from all those years of D&D), but it's an interesting take on it.
Cheers
I hope you wont take this the wrong way, but orks pre-date Beowolf. The song of Zetaphon for instance features them. And provides with the explanation of the Fay/elf/ Ork, relationship.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 05:25:32
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quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
This thread is NOT about a retcon, a reboot, alternative timelines, or anything like that. There are plenty of threads to discuss these concepts. Please, if you want to bring up one of those concepts, go there. That's not what this thread is about.
I don't want to seem dismissive, but I will politely ignore suggestions of anything that breaks the continuity between the editions. We're looking at ways to pull things together, not break them apart.
This comes across as either preaching to the choir or weasel-wording around the main issue.
Retcons were already made and you can't both leave a retcon and un-retcon it at the same time. So, it's simply logically impossible to do.
Therefore, at this point it's impossible to make anything without including either old retcons or making new ones. And we all know there's no way everyone will be happy with all of them. Just like it was and is with 4e. Either pre-4e fans will complain it's the same 4e, or 4e fans will complain it's not the same 4e, or both. Those who are okay with either probably won't object anyway.
Anything else is "yes, but no, but yes" - mumbling the main question away without answering it.
The only way for this to end at least somewhat well would be the version solely dictated by Greenwood. It would still mean retconning out things, it's just that the "director's cut" would be more acceptable than any other cut.
I'm not sure what you're driving at. My post was clarifying the point of this thread, which is to identify lore continuity problems and find solutions that embrace as much lore as possible. Of course there have been retcons--no one is denying that. What I am advocating is that we try to pave the way forward whilst avoiding further retcons, for instance "remove the Spellplague era." This thread is about being inclusive of all lore--or at least as much as possible.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 05:26:16
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@Sightless: I don't even know what Zetaphon is. Enlighten me?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 10:59:25
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Zetaphon was a dragon, the father of all dragons and deeply concerned with the beings of the world, which included, but not limited to: humans, the higher Fay, the middle Fay, or elves, the lower fay, Orks, the under fay, Ogars, etc. The elves were the children of the Quel'Aloh and the mother of the world, in short any Fay that was born while the mother was in the world, and they were not necesarily good, often a case of a pretty face and a black heart, especially when it came to controlling and minipulating man. Orks were kicked out of the Fay world, along with the Ogers, when the High Fay stoll their holding stones during the great war the Old Ken, monsters from beyond the world. Thus was the beginning of the war.
I'd say more, but this book was thicker than War and Peace, as it was actually a whole series of tales that were part of the "song" all told by the Dragon. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 11:04:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
Zetaphon was a dragon, the father of all dragons and deeply concerned with the beings of the world, which included, but not limited to: humans, the higher Fay, the middle Fay, or elves, the lower fay, Orks, the under fay, Ogars, etc. The elves were the children of the Quel'Aloh and the mother of the world, in short any Fay that was born while the mother was in the world, and they were not necesarily good, often a case of a pretty face and a black heart, especially when it came to controlling and minipulating man. Orks were kicked out of the Fay world, along with the Ogers, when the High Fay stoll their holding stones during the great war the Old Ken, monsters from beyond the world. Thus was the beginning of the war.
I'd say more, but this book was thicker than War and Peace, as it was actually a whole series of tales that were part of the "song" all told by the Dragon.
But is this from work of fiction or mythical? The Beowulf as we know it is written in the late Dark ages. |
No Canon, more stories, more Realms. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 13:44:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
Zetaphon was a dragon, the father of all dragons and deeply concerned with the beings of the world, which included, but not limited to: humans, the higher Fay, the middle Fay, or elves, the lower fay, Orks, the under fay, Ogars, etc. The elves were the children of the Quel'Aloh and the mother of the world, in short any Fay that was born while the mother was in the world, and they were not necesarily good, often a case of a pretty face and a black heart, especially when it came to controlling and minipulating man. Orks were kicked out of the Fay world, along with the Ogers, when the High Fay stoll their holding stones during the great war the Old Ken, monsters from beyond the world. Thus was the beginning of the war.
I'd say more, but this book was thicker than War and Peace, as it was actually a whole series of tales that were part of the "song" all told by the Dragon.
But is this from work of fiction or mythical? The Beowulf as we know it is written in the late Dark ages.
Both works are mythical. The song of Zetathon dates back to the Middle of the Roman Empire, schollars debate whether it is German in origin, or nordic, largely since there are parts of it, individual tales from both regions. There is even one tale in latin from the later Roman Empire, in that the University of Berlin. Nobodies sure which tales are older/newer, or exactly where the tales originated from, or who added what and when. More than likely it was a originally completely oral, the one at the university has a comment from the other saying that it was past down from his father's father. I have two translations in English, and a partial copy in latin, which my brother got me from a store that specializes in old books from 1770, but I naturally can't read that one, and the pages don't scan well. Given all this, this is the reason why I said to Errick that Orks pre-date Beowulf. There are also Orks in Frettir the strong, but there's a strong ongoing debate on when that one came into being (see the Litzig papers 1909,for further reference). |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 18:27:58
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I think the take away here is that orcs have existed for a long time and their origins are misty and interlaced with fey. Agreed?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 19:25:30
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| Agreed, and hopefully, people are aware that I wasn't trying to pick a fight or anything. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 21:22:31
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| Sightless, just out of curiosity, could you provide a link for an online reference to the Song of Zetaphon? Google searches only lead back to this thread. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2012 : 23:23:45
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Indeed. I'm curious about this as well, especially the Latin translation bit. I took three years of it in high school, and might be able to read some of it.
On another note, about orcs being related to elves- although they were stated as unable to interbreed with elves in earlier editions, there was also a reference in one of the 2nd ed books that mentioned the possibility of the two races being related. Perhaps this happened through Gruumsh and correlon being brothers? Even if the two created their respective followers' races, those races would then share the blood-relationship of their creators, would they not? That would make sense, and MT is right on the money about much of the old fey-lore. I've read several sources that either confirm his ideas, or at least give similar speculations. Unfortunately, they were all library loans, so I can't recall the specific sources ATM. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 00:05:22
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I'll try, but can't make any promises. The internet is the final frontier for screen-reader users. More sites are unaccessable than accessable. I may bribe a friend to lend a hand.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 00:34:18
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I'm glad other scribes mentioned this... Song of Zetaphon, Song of Zetathon, or song of Wearathong... No mention anywhere online of this alleged text.
So until you can prove otherwise, Eric is correct re: Beowulf and you are DEAD WRONG.
Oh, by the way, I have a super secret book in a language I can't read that states that hamsters breath fire, come from outer space, and begat humankind after mating with giants. It is the oldest known reference of interspecies breeding. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 00:37:40
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
Oh, by the way, I have a super secret book in a language I can't read that states that hamsters breath fire, come from outer space, and begat humankind after mating with giants. It is the oldest known reference of interspecies breeding.
I'm glad to see you're a fan of my work, but I think you missed the point. It was intended as political satire. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 01:56:56
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So far the only thing I can find for it online is in EBSCO, and unfortunately, I don't know how to post links.
Yeah, that's probably a fact that I shouldn't admit to. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 02:08:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
So far the only thing I can find for it online is in EBSCO, and unfortunately, I don't know how to post links.
Yeah, that's probably a fact that I shouldn't admit to.
An EBSCO search for 'Zetaphon', 'Zetafon' , and 'Zetathon' reveals no results. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 02:23:09
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I have three.
Do you want names and dates, names and journals, what?
In willson web, there's an article
Albert, P.(1989). . A review on the arguments of the origins of the Song of Zetaphan. Journal of American Historical Review. Vol. 33 108-114.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 02:55:17
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Yes. The "Journal of American Historical Review" does not exist.
"American Historical Review" does; however, 1989 marked its 94th volume, not its 33rd.
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
I have three.
Do you want names and dates, names and journals, what?
In willson web, there's an article
Albert, P.(1989). . A review on the arguments of the origins of the Song of Zetaphan. Journal of American Historical Review. Vol. 33 108-114.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 03:08:46
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@The Hidden Lord: your crude interaction isn't warranted.
The reference was given...read it. If you can't read it, leave it. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 03:09:38
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Some searching of both volumes 33 (the indicated number) and 94 (from the indicated year) of the American Historical Review yields no article of the sort suggested; a search for the term Zetaphan within that publication yields no results, and, as before, Google is entirely baffled by the concept of Zetaphon/Zetathon/Zetaphan.
I hate to doubt your word, Sightless, but the internet doesn't seem to realize that this text exists. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 03:12:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
@The Hidden Lord: your crude interaction isn't warranted.
The reference was given...read it. If you can't read it, leave it.
No reference was given.
My interactions are not crude.
Please refrain from attacking me. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 03:14:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandro
Some searching of both volumes 33 (the indicated number) and 94 (from the indicated year) of the American Historical Review yields no article of the sort suggested; a search for the term Zetaphan within that publication yields no results, and, as before, Google is entirely baffled by the concept of Zetaphon/Zetathon/Zetaphan.
I hate to doubt your word, Sightless, but the internet doesn't seem to realize that this text exists.
Perhaps Sightless' reader is giving an improper spelling...or perhaps some spelling error in general is at fault.
I have to admit that I can't find a reference either. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 03:17:14
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
I'm glad other scribes mentioned this... Song of Zetaphon, Song of Zetathon, or song of Wearathong... No mention anywhere online of this alleged text.
So until you can prove otherwise, Eric is correct re: Beowulf and you are DEAD WRONG.
Oh, by the way, I have a super secret book in a language I can't read that states that hamsters breath fire, come from outer space, and begat humankind after mating with giants. It is the oldest known reference of interspecies breeding.
In re: crude interaction...read your own words above. If you don't see that as crude (perhaps mocking)...then my apology. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 03:22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Perhaps Sightless' reader is giving an improper spelling...or perhaps some spelling error in general is at fault.
Yeah, I figured this, so I manually searched the indicated pages, but to no avail.
My only thought is that the Journal of American Historical Review is some minor journal with no web presence -- either in the form of its own website, or in databases -- but even that doesn't account for the lack of any other references. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 03:22:19
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I accept your apology. Please refrain from ad hominem attacks in the future.
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
I'm glad other scribes mentioned this... Song of Zetaphon, Song of Zetathon, or song of Wearathong... No mention anywhere online of this alleged text.
So until you can prove otherwise, Eric is correct re: Beowulf and you are DEAD WRONG.
Oh, by the way, I have a super secret book in a language I can't read that states that hamsters breath fire, come from outer space, and begat humankind after mating with giants. It is the oldest known reference of interspecies breeding.
In re: crude interaction...read your own words above. If you don't see that as crude (perhaps mocking)...then my apology.
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 03:25:26
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It seems very unlikely, to me, that there is no reference to the alleged journal anywhere in this 563 databases I queried.
In addition, I reviewed all the databases available to "Wilson Web"
http://www.nova.edu/library/dils/lessons/wilsonweb/
And returned no results.
quote:
Originally posted by Sandro
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Perhaps Sightless' reader is giving an improper spelling...or perhaps some spelling error in general is at fault.
Yeah, I figured this, so I manually searched the indicated pages, but to no avail.
My only thought is that the Journal of American Historical Review is some minor journal with no web presence -- either in the form of its own website, or in databases -- but even that doesn't account for the lack of any other references.
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 03:36:28
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| I understand things can get heated; we all have our (strong) opinions, and will disagree on things, but let's try and be polite. Being rude only brings people down. We can disagree and still be civil. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 03:39:23
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Fellow scribes, that's quite enough! 
If any of the scribes involved in this current bout of disruptive behaviour should wish for it to continue, I ask that you kindly please take it either to emails or private messages.
Thank you. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 03:40:37
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I'll note here: I'm not disagreeing with The Hidden Lord regarding no reference being found on the net.
I'm simply at odds against his constantly being rude to others and trying to hide it behind sounding superior.
His primary point is sound...but he hasn't taken time to note that perhaps not everyone can quickly zip around the net if they are blind, have been given the reference by someone else who could have been in error and etc.
No, instead he drops a sarcasm bomb on Sightless referencing in a very condescending tone a ficticious work of his imagination.
It shows him for being an ass...and I'm not one to suffer an ass.
EDIT: and my apologies to Sage and others.
If my words offend, erase them. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 30 Oct 2012 03:41:56 |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2012 : 03:49:27
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Aye, I'd like to point out that my searches for references to the text that Sightless mentioned is not based on any attempt to discredit him or disbelief in the existence of the text, but simply honest interest in it.
That this whole thing escalated into a larger issue is, to this scribe at least, highly regrettable. |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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One Canon, One Story, One Realms (5e) THE SEQUEL
