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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 07:10:20
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against each other. Kinda like there own version of the blood wars?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 13:30:17
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Because people are lately inspired by the imagery of Diablo III?
Celestials tend to cooperate and collaborate, they share their language and their noble cause of ceaseless eternal battle against those dirty old fiends. Solars, angels, devas, (old-style) eladrin, archons, and all the rest just have no reason to war, their ideologies may differ, but they don't invade each other's turf and don't use force or hostility to steal each other's believers.
Having said that, some celestial groups do seem more prone to conflict. The Olympians seem like a sometimes-violent bunch, and the Asgard crowd revels in glorious brutality - worse, they basically share the "same" plane. Perhaps celestials just abhor the notion of spilling holy blood on their lawns so they wage their wars on smaller scales, clandestinely, or in places like the Outlands and Sigil. I suppose fiends prefer to dominate and subjugate, while celestials prefer to guide and enlighten ... the difference being that celestials might employ mortals and other agents to do their dirty work for them (plausible deniability), while always striving to minimize collateral damage (innocent victims) - while a fiend would never trust anyone else to do the job right unless standing overhead with fangs and whips and claws ... besides, most fiends love strife, suffering, and killing and they're always wary of opportunistic competitors - they plot against their superiors so they know they cannot trust their inferiors. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Jun 2012 13:40:32 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 15:59:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Because people are lately inspired by the imagery of Diablo III?
Interestingly, for those scribes intrigued by the prospect of portraying such events in their home Realms campaigns, I'd suggest perusing the recently released Diablo III: Book of Cain. It has proven to be quite an informative resource for my own games.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 16:04:07
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I have to say that once upon a time, the "goodly" forces did make war on each other. During the reign of the Queen of Chaos, she had the forces of Chaotic Good on her side in the over-all war until she appointed the "Wolf-Spider" to lead all Chaos armies.
The Chaotic Good forces then withdrew from the war, and her Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Evil forces were finally broken and totally defeated on the Plains of Pesh by the Wind Dukes of Aaqa who lead the forces of Lawful Neutral (their own alignment) as well as Lawful Good and Lawful Evil.
The Great Rift Canyon is a result of this battle in Greyhawk.
So to answer in short: yes, the forces of Chaotic Good HAVE fought against the forces of Lawful Good in the past...but it is essentially the War of the Queen of Chaos that taught them better than to fight against each other...but also what led to the never-ending Blood War between the forces of Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 16:13:08
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Yes.
After the conflict, they walk away with different names.
Thats why demons have sub-groups of Rakshasa and Oni, and why Celestials have Angels, Devas, Archons, etc.
We only know of these groups in their separate forms, but once they were all one. New groups probably emerge all the time, but mortals don't find out about them for eons, if at all (because many groups emerge and then are destroyed, before they achieve such fame/notoriety).
There are just as much politics in heaven as there is in hell. In the RW, I've yet to find two different {insert religious group of choice} that completely agree on everything, which is why we wind up with dozens - sometimes hundreds - of 'sects'. I don't want to get too RW, but I can think of MANY cases where groups supposedly of the same religion went to war over (what outsiders consider) minor religious points. You think celstials are above all that?
Devils were (are?) Celestials - read the Tyrants of the Nine Hells. There's your answer right there. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Jun 2012 16:15:04 |
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Eldacar
Senior Scribe
438 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 16:29:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Devils were (are?) Celestials - read the Tyrants of the Nine Hells. There's your answer right there.
It depends on how much you trust that particular tale. After all, right before the story itself, it states that countless cultures have their own version of how the Nine Hells came to be, along with this:
"As is the case with any myth worthy of the name, the following
tale is true whether or not it actually happened." |
"The Wild Mages I have met exhibit a startling disregard for common sense, and are often meddling with powers far beyond their own control." ~Volo
"Not unlike a certain travelogue author with whom I am unfortunately acquainted." ~Elminster |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 18:30:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I have to say that once upon a time, the "goodly" forces did make war on each other. During the reign of the Queen of Chaos, she had the forces of Chaotic Good on her side in the over-all war until she appointed the "Wolf-Spider" to lead all Chaos armies.
The Chaotic Good forces then withdrew from the war, and her Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Evil forces were finally broken and totally defeated on the Plains of Pesh by the Wind Dukes of Aaqa who lead the forces of Lawful Neutral (their own alignment) as well as Lawful Good and Lawful Evil.
The Great Rift Canyon is a result of this battle in Greyhawk.
So to answer in short: yes, the forces of Chaotic Good HAVE fought against the forces of Lawful Good in the past...but it is essentially the War of the Queen of Chaos that taught them better than to fight against each other...but also what led to the never-ending Blood War between the forces of Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil.
I'd always been under the impression that good and evil weren't factors at all, in that conflict, and that if anything the combatants would have been LN and CN. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 19:02:59
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Interestingly, for those scribes intrigued by the prospect of portraying such events in their home Realms campaigns, I'd suggest perusing the recently released Diablo III: Book of Cain. It has proven to be quite an informative resource for my own games.
Here is a link to it on Amazon. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 19:07:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I have to say that once upon a time, the "goodly" forces did make war on each other. During the reign of the Queen of Chaos, she had the forces of Chaotic Good on her side in the over-all war until she appointed the "Wolf-Spider" to lead all Chaos armies.
The Chaotic Good forces then withdrew from the war, and her Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Evil forces were finally broken and totally defeated on the Plains of Pesh by the Wind Dukes of Aaqa who lead the forces of Lawful Neutral (their own alignment) as well as Lawful Good and Lawful Evil.
The Great Rift Canyon is a result of this battle in Greyhawk.
So to answer in short: yes, the forces of Chaotic Good HAVE fought against the forces of Lawful Good in the past...but it is essentially the War of the Queen of Chaos that taught them better than to fight against each other...but also what led to the never-ending Blood War between the forces of Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil.
I'd always been under the impression that good and evil weren't factors at all, in that conflict, and that if anything the combatants would have been LN and CN.
All lore that I've read specifically points out that the forces of Chaos (as represented by CG, CN & CE) were in fierce conflict with the forces of Law (as represented by LG, LN & LE).
Lore specifically says that the Blood War is an ongoing remainder conflict of this initial war. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 20:01:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I have to say that once upon a time, the "goodly" forces did make war on each other. During the reign of the Queen of Chaos, she had the forces of Chaotic Good on her side in the over-all war until she appointed the "Wolf-Spider" to lead all Chaos armies.
The Chaotic Good forces then withdrew from the war, and her Chaotic Neutral and Chaotic Evil forces were finally broken and totally defeated on the Plains of Pesh by the Wind Dukes of Aaqa who lead the forces of Lawful Neutral (their own alignment) as well as Lawful Good and Lawful Evil.
The Great Rift Canyon is a result of this battle in Greyhawk.
So to answer in short: yes, the forces of Chaotic Good HAVE fought against the forces of Lawful Good in the past...but it is essentially the War of the Queen of Chaos that taught them better than to fight against each other...but also what led to the never-ending Blood War between the forces of Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil.
I'd always been under the impression that good and evil weren't factors at all, in that conflict, and that if anything the combatants would have been LN and CN.
All lore that I've read specifically points out that the forces of Chaos (as represented by CG, CN & CE) were in fierce conflict with the forces of Law (as represented by LG, LN & LE).
Lore specifically says that the Blood War is an ongoing remainder conflict of this initial war.
Did it actually say all alignments were involved? To more fully explain what I meant, I had been under the impression that it was pure Law on one side, pure Chaos on the other, and that Good and Evil weren't part of the picture at all -- like a prehistoric, before Good and Evil type of thing, before mortals were even around to choose sides. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 21:58:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Did it actually say all alignments were involved? To more fully explain what I meant, I had been under the impression that it was pure Law on one side, pure Chaos on the other, and that Good and Evil weren't part of the picture at all -- like a prehistoric, before Good and Evil type of thing, before mortals were even around to choose sides.
The Queen of Chaos formed the Tanar'ri from the souls of the Chaotic Evil which entered the Abyss. Having the Tanar'ri tipped the scales of the war against the forces of Law...here are a few quotes about what happened.
from the Rod of Seven Parts:
quote:
...It is known at first the two sides struggled without regard to good and evil...The stalemate began to break when the Queen appointed a powerful and ruthless tanar'ri as her new general...But many chaotic yet good creatures who had deserted the queen when Miska appeared...
from the 4e Demonomicon:
quote:
...an exarch of Moradin and seven angels of Bahamut...worked in secret with Torzak-Belgirn, the sould forge of Moradin, to craft the Rod of Law...
and then
...Pazuzu slipped out the Abyss in secret to stake his own claim to power...an angelic paragon of chastity and virtue called Asmodeus...lamented that the gods had chosen to repay Asmodeus' loyalty with an eternity of service at a thankless task...
You see, Asmodeus was a Guardian Angel set to watch over the Prison of Tharizdun! He started the Blood War to try and gather the full power of the Shard the Obyriths had tempted Tharizdun with!
There was more I wanted to say...but it will have to wait. Kinda ill today...be back with more later.
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 23:31:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Yes.
After the conflict, they walk away with different names.
Thats why demons have sub-groups of Rakshasa and Oni, and why Celestials have Angels, Devas, Archons, etc.
We only know of these groups in their separate forms, but once they were all one. New groups probably emerge all the time, but mortals don't find out about them for eons, if at all (because many groups emerge and then are destroyed, before they achieve such fame/notoriety).
There are just as much politics in heaven as there is in hell. In the RW, I've yet to find two different {insert religious group of choice} that completely agree on everything, which is why we wind up with dozens - sometimes hundreds - of 'sects'. I don't want to get too RW, but I can think of MANY cases where groups supposedly of the same religion went to war over (what outsiders consider) minor religious points. You think celstials are above all that?
Devils were (are?) Celestials - read the Tyrants of the Nine Hells. There's your answer right there.
Sorta not exactly. The legend is unreliable, and contains a slew of anachronisms (Gods that didn't or couldn't have existed at that time being there for instance). At the time it happened, other sources would have the outer planes not yet in their modern form or number, and Asmodeus on his future baatezu would have been not celestials, but servitors of the original abstract force of Law, not yet tainted by either good nor evil. Asmodeus's fall from LN to LE was likely the second spreading corruption of Law as Evil spread out from the primordial Waste (having already corrupted chaos by seeding the Obyriths into the nascent Abyss and the Ancient Baatorians into Baator - given that Baator was already there for Asmodeus to fall into when he was exiled).
But such legends are always dotted with myth and later redaction and retelling (especially where the ministers of Hell get involved for propaganda purposes). So in the end, adopt to your own campaign/setting usage.
And as an aside, I'm not using any 4e lore in this at all, it's a completely different continuity/game. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Edited by - Shemmy on 08 Jun 2012 23:33:18 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 23:35:15
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Aasimon/Angels were described in 2e as fighting against each other at the behest of their deific patrons on a massive scale at times when gods and pantheons came into disagreement.
The alignment-based outsiders never really came to blows, but they didn't absolutely get along and tended to have sometimes chilly relations (especially the archons and eladrin) with the guardinals doing their best to mediate and promote cooperation. But there wasn't anything remotely similar to the Blood War going on between the LG/NG/CG celestials. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jun 2012 : 23:45:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
Aasimon/Angels were described in 2e as fighting against each other at the behest of their deific patrons on a massive scale at times when gods and pantheons came into disagreement.
The alignment-based outsiders never really came to blows, but they didn't absolutely get along and tended to have sometimes chilly relations (especially the archons and eladrin) with the guardinals doing their best to mediate and promote cooperation. But there wasn't anything remotely similar to the Blood War going on between the LG/NG/CG celestials.
I should honestly take this route...keep the lore of editions apart; but it is hard to do sometimes.
I can't find the book that states it, but SOMEWHERE there is a book that says the CG forces withdrew from the side of Chaos in the war vs. Law...and once Miska was defeated and the Queen of Chaos on her heels, they actually invaded the Abyss to try and cleanse it...they failed. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 00:32:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I can't find the book that states it, but SOMEWHERE there is a book that says the CG forces withdrew from the side of Chaos in the war vs. Law...and once Miska was defeated and the Queen of Chaos on her heels, they actually invaded the Abyss to try and cleanse it...they failed.
Fiendish Codex I, I believe. As I recall, it was the Eladrin who invaded the Abyss, however they had their clocks cleaned (much like the archons' attempt to invade the Gray Waste) and many of them were trapped and now used as bait by Pale Night in one of the plane's layers specifically designed for that purpose. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 04:51:34
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So what your saying is that Eladrin are really not good for anything?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 05:46:11
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
against each other. Kinda like there own version of the blood wars?
Not war exactly, but more like a serious conflict that claimed many lives, but not so serious that it made their race a step away from extinction. Said conflict was likely engineered by a lawful or chaotic evil entity. Besides, (and I can't believe I'm remembering this, given my complete disappointment with The Fractured Sky) Zayl was once able to manipulate Tyr/Helm's angels to turn against each other---and to think those divine servants were best friends... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore
India
1591 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jun 2012 : 09:54:58
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| But that was not exactly a full scale war, at least nothing on the scale of the Blood war and it ended with Helms unjust death at the hands of Tyr. |
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Have Celestials ever gone to war
