Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 Running the Realms
 The Five Shires of the Forgotten Realms
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 8

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4047 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2012 :  04:35:48  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Yep! That's right, I want to place The Five Shires of Mystara (written by our beloved Ed Greenwood) where now sits the Gulthmere Forest.

There are several settlements/cities there that will essentially no longer exist though, and so I'm wanting to talk to folks and see what they think.

What negative thoughts does anyone have about placing the Shires where the Gulthmere Forest is? Will I be destroying any major lore that I need to reconcile?

What positive thoughts does anyone have? What are some advantages of using a dedicated Halfling nation in the area?

For those that aren't familiar with the Five Shires, it is a very interesting read and is thick with EGG! (Ed Greenwood Goodness). I would recommend it for a read to anyone!

I am also looking for ANYONE interested in helping me make a MAP of this new thing too! Map-makers...are you there?

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
34137 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2012 :  13:29:09  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I once commented to Ed about using the Five Shires for Luiren... His response:

quote:
Sure. Superimpose the Luiren cities and government structure, shift places "just a little" to make room for them, and, yes, it works admirably for that. Almost as if someone designed it that way. ;}


Judging by eBay, The Five Shires is rare and difficult to find. I don't know if it was a short publishing run or something else, but when I was trying to lay hands on it, I was routinely seeing it go for $50. I lucked out and got a copy in really good condition for like $25.

Ed also told me there were some printing issues with that source, too, but the copy I got was one of the ones without those issues.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 26 May 2012 13:32:04
Go to Top of Page

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4047 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2012 :  15:33:15  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I remember you mentioning this before Wooly...I may have read it on the Ask Ed scrolls...

However, I just want to bring the shires more north so that it can be central in the campaign I plan to run. Luiren just seems so very far away.

I was looking more at the Gulthmere Forest last night, and I think I've found a way to essentially have both in the area at once!

The Five Shires is heavy in woodlands, and so it wouldn't be impossible to blend the two together...only the history and such would need more "fixing" then.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2012 :  17:38:23  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The best advice I can offer you is invert it.

Then fudge what you have to.

I no longer even own those gazeteers, so more then that I can't add. Also extremely busy with my new home, and learning a new app (GIMP) is a struggle, after years of using PS, so I'm really not ready for anything involved at this time.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 May 2012 17:43:07
Go to Top of Page

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4047 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2012 :  05:27:10  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok...so I tried a map. It isn't the greatest, but I really had to do little to it to make it my "Five Shires of the Forgotten Realms" to be honest.

I'll be working on the Timeline next...but first a few things about the map:

You can find my map here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10166328/FR%205%20Shires.jpg

The first thing you will notice is that, unlike the Five Shires of Mystara, I didn't include any roads and left out many of the villages. I honestly don't have the map making skills to make an original map, so I used one of the Vilhon Reach instead and went from there (and so really there wasn't enough space).

As for roads, I always thought that in the Forgotten Realms, the Halflings would have what amounted to good cart trails, and so that is one break I'm making with "Canon" Five Shires material. The orcs were supposed to be the ones that made the halflings build the roads long ago...so I thought such things would not have lasted for hundreds of years and so only cart trails would be left for halfling sized carts...not something that might be good for normal sized carts.

I also shifted towns around a bit, as I said; but some of them are much different in placement than in "Canon" material...but I did this to "make it all fit" for my world.

If anyone has any tips on the map, I'm all ears...but I think this will be sufficient for me in my game (and the best I'm likely to do at any rate!).

The first thing to remember about this campaign I'm planning is that it is ONLY 1e Material from the Old Grey Box, plus what I add in myself. It will keep me from having too many "Lore Conflicts" and such...well, and it is a 1e Game after the NEW AD&D books come out.

Second, I replaced two towns on the map. The Capital Shireton was once known as Amry. I didn't find anything much to conflict on this, so I think I'm good on Lore (though I haven't checked the Sea of Fallen Stars book yet...only Vilhon Reach, Pirates of the SoFS, and the base box...hope I didn't miss anything).

The other city is now Tothmeer (once known as Telpir). I'm going to go with a simple "Tothmeer is what the Hin call it...silly big'uns call it Telpir for some reason!" The ship that is noted as lost in the Old Grey Box will simply have been a Hin trading ship from Tothmeer/Telpir instead. The larger issue is that in the Pirates book, Telpir is said to belong to Turmish; but I think I have an end around on that one too. Telpir will have simply been what the people of Turmish called it when it was besieged in Turmish's expansionist phase, and the Hin (for a short period of time) simply paid a Tribute to Turmish. No ruler of Turmish has actually ever garrisoned Tothmeer...and now they get no Tribute either!

Moving on from the rambling now...

Any suggestions are welcome!


EDIT (5a.m. EST, 5/28/12): I don't like my map...it doesn't feel right. I'll leave it up for now; but I'm getting rid of it.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!

Edited by - Dalor Darden on 30 May 2012 07:02:26
Go to Top of Page

Lirdolin
Learned Scribe

Germany
194 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2012 :  08:35:02  Show Profile  Visit Lirdolin's Homepage Send Lirdolin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I suggested on the 'Create Realms Lore' thread to have a realm settled by survivors of Luiren somewhere in the 4/5e Realms. Maybe you could make the five shires that realm?
Go to Top of Page

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4047 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2012 :  12:54:14  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lirdolin

I suggested on the 'Create Realms Lore' thread to have a realm settled by survivors of Luiren somewhere in the 4/5e Realms. Maybe you could make the five shires that realm?



Feel free to do as you wish...however MY Five Shires is going to be set much earlier than the periods of 4e or later. I don't have a problem with 4e mind you; I am just going to be running a AD&D game set during the starting year of the "Old Grey Box" and so I need the Five Shires to be set then.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
Go to Top of Page

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4047 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2012 :  08:45:03  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here is a tentative history of The Five Shires of the Forgotten Realms.

I would appreciate any input into lore contradictions I may have missed (aside, obviously, from the fact that The Five Shires shouldn't BE in the Eastern Gulthmere Forest!). Anything that could be added would be welcome as well!

Here it is:

DEAD LINK REMOVED



EDIT (2a.m. EST 5/30/12): the above history is being changed.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!

Edited by - Dalor Darden on 01 Jun 2012 05:09:13
Go to Top of Page

ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1755 Posts

Posted - 29 May 2012 :  10:40:10  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There might be something you can use in the duergar history in Dragon #267 in the write-up of Underspires (Dunspeirrin).

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
Go to Top of Page

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4047 Posts

Posted - 29 May 2012 :  14:16:48  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Eric!

I remembered the duergar of Underspires having much to do in the area of the Vilhon; but this article will help me a great deal more now!

quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

There might be something you can use in the duergar history in Dragon #267 in the write-up of Underspires (Dunspeirrin).

--Eric


The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
Go to Top of Page

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4047 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2012 :  05:35:52  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, good ol' Markustay is well on his way to creating another fine map for me!

Check out the start of his Five Shires of the Forgotten Realms map!

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/150/a/8/five_shires_conversion_by_markustay-d51py18.png

I'll be going back into the history above and making a few changes now!

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
Go to Top of Page

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4047 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2012 :  13:49:16  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

The only thing I can't fix is the name of at least two of the shires - East and South - they've been inverted. oh well, can win 'em all. Maybe halflings do that on purpose to confuse 'big folk'.

As for the Orcs, the Gulthmere has tribes of gnolls - those are in the Everis Cale novel. These aren't your garden-variety feral monsters - they are more like the ones in the UE book; they are even allowed in Starmantle (at least one merc. co.) They are still mean and ugly, but they are also pretty damn clever.

I figure the Five-Shire border ends where the forest ends, and there are probably Orcs in those mountains as well. I know Urml is a Bullywug town (at least I think it is... something weird like that... its been awhile). Between all the known creatures in the area, and the age and size (and mysteriousness) of the Orsraun Mountains, I would say you should be able to find anything there - where there are Mountains, there are orcs. Its part of their religion.



This is a carry over from a conversation on this thread:

http://forum.candlekeep.com/post.asp?method=ReplyQuote&REPLY_ID=386873&TOPIC_ID=16589&FORUM_ID=19

We can just go with naming the old Eastshire to "Westshire" and the old Southsire to "Eastshire" now.

The gnolls being there is perfect...because there is much history involving gnolls in relation to the Five Shires.

The orcs work well too...lots of those in the history.

The village of Mar as a gnome village...I like that as well; the Hin have been trying to attract those who use The Art to help defend their land.

As for Athenos...it fits nicely as well...but perhaps instead we could replace Athenos with Telpir? That way it remains on the coast, as well as belonging to Turmish as Telpir should?

Amry has so few canon references, I'm not sure it is absolutely needed. There is a small town on the bay at the mouth of the river where Shireton sits...called Shireton Port...Amry could be that instead? Sort of like "Well, everyone calls our village Shireton Port...but the real name is Amry damn it!"

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2012 :  17:27:35  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I figure both Telpir and Amry are canon locations, so I didn't want to loose them, but I do like your suggestion - I guess those islands can remain nameless (except for the ones that came from Five Shires).

Was placing names last night - its getting really crowded - I may have to bump-up the size, but we'll see (I'd hate loose the resolution). aside from all the 5S locales, there are at least 4 more canon towns that need to be added, and a few other things (like Redwater Dale).

I'd also suggest swapping the lore regarding Prespur and Orlin islands - it would make more sense that way. IIRC, Prespur is split, half being owned by Sembia, and the other half Cormyr, and both just use it for their naval bases to combat piracy. It would be a little odd if Orlin was 'behind' it in this regard (and Prespur is such a large island, its a total waste to just have two military ports on it). If you want to go that route, I could either swap the names, or you could just mentally swap the fluff.

I figure the Gnolls are really common in the western part of the Gulthmere. They probably once controlled most of the forest, but the Halflings (and others) have slowly been chasing them west. Wereskalot (fitting name, no?) and Aergruth are as far west as halflings dare venture now.

The Lightless Lake also had some frog-folk (from the novel) revolving around it - I assume the froggies (given the proximity of Urml) used to control that portion of the forest, but now that they've been inundated with gnolls they are also quite upset. Fortunately for everyone involved, they usually spend more time fighting each-other rather then allying.

Where is the lore regarding Ilimar from? Is that SS, or is it in SK? Either way, I am now rethinking that as well that its actually and even more ancient Batrachi ruin (they were known for their portals, and a city split between two or more places sounds right up their alley). After the fall of the Batrachi, the Sarrukh may have protected/enslaved that other creator race, and took-over many of their cities. That ties-in both groups of frog-folk to the region and those ruins.

I guess the Sarrukh made the Batrachi their 'toadies'.


Anyhow, the Batrachi began loosing ground even before the Sundering... TO GNOLLS! That works perfectly. Gnolls are the oldest (canon) race outside the creators, except for maybe the dragons and giants. Their enmity goes back to the Age of Legend (the time before time, etc).

We could also use some more canon lore and tie things together - Nobanion. There is a reason why Nobanion has a heavy presence in the Gulthmere - he hates gnolls (thats not canon, but it does make sense - the whole cat vs dog thing). The halflings - being hard-pressed to hold-off the gnolls in the forest, asked for divine aid (they prayed a lot). But instead of a halfling deity, they got Nobanion (who may have been requested to intervene by the halfling pantheon... does that even have a name?)

And Nobanion works as both an archfey and a beastlord - take your pick (could be both - for all we know, they all could be both). Either way, I would think the Hin (who must have some sort of fey background) would respect fey powers, especially living in such a primordial forest.

Ergo, their move into the 'deeper wood' only began after Nobanion's arrival on the scene, no more then a few centuries I would think (I haven't checked the Nobanion material, so this might conflict).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 May 2012 17:34:02
Go to Top of Page

ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1755 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2012 :  20:02:47  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Look at the write-up of the Fellowship of the Purple Staff in Champions of Valor, page 80. This is based on an old Polyhedron article by Ed.

Also, I think there was a brief visit to Starmantle in one of Paul Kemp's novels and possible one of Ed's early Elminster novels.

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
Go to Top of Page

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4047 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2012 :  21:00:50  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

Look at the write-up of the Fellowship of the Purple Staff in Champions of Valor, page 80. This is based on an old Polyhedron article by Ed.

Also, I think there was a brief visit to Starmantle in one of Paul Kemp's novels and possible one of Ed's early Elminster novels.

--Eric



I was indeed reading on the Fellowship of the Purple Staff. I didn't know they had an update in Champions of Valor though. For me, I'll be using older lore from pre-2nd Edition (before the Time of Troubles). Could be a good conflict for "Good vs. Good" sort of thing though!

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
Go to Top of Page

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4047 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2012 :  21:03:11  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Markustay: Ilimar? I'm confused about Ilimar myself...

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2012 :  22:36:59  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Serpent kingdoms, pg. 132, Shining South (3e), pg. 99

And those are Grippli in Urml - the ones from Paul's novel were bigger (can't reference it now, but IIRC they were as big as humans). This fits well with the Ilimar lore (I also may plop a forest in there, against the mountains - the 'drier' (but still wet) portion of the Wetwoods swamp region.

As for the the Fellowship of the Purple Staff - that works fine. I don't know if I'd spin it as 'good vs. good, though - I figure the halflings had small coastal settlements all along, but were afraid to range deeper into the forest. The Nobanions helped clear the deadlier monsters out of the eastern forests, which worked as compromise for the fellowship, who would have preferred completely 'civilizing' the region. This leave a situation where certain humans are trusted - the druids and Nobanions whole-heartedly (who are based out of Cedarspoke), and the Fellowship( although trusted less-so then the others, they are still allowed to maintain tample-forts in certain areas simply because it aids the halflings in their defense of the land).

However, these 'goodly' groups are countered by several nearby evil groups, all of whom (put together) greatly out-number the good folk. Thus-far, the only major groups that have allied are the mostly-human ones (I assume Black Eagle has a deal with Westgate, receiving info about rich caravans and what-not). Westgate (night Masks) is also in talks with Thaalim Torchtower's Tunland bandits (and their pet dragon), and the evil folks of Maerantide - they desperately want to annex the Dragonmere region (before Cormyr does) and are seeking like-minded allies wherever they can. A united 'Kingdom' of Westgate could be big trouble for the folk of the Shires.

Mostly homebrew, of course (except for the actual groups, who all exist). I figured it was a good way to explain why the hallings are more willing to allow others in 'their'(?) lands then what is represented in the canon Five Shires lore.

I also assume that all of the woods were once part of 'Greater Gulthmere', but as the Halflings settled further inland, they began clearing certain (approved) sections. Although their history (in the canon Mystara material and your own chronology) goes back pretty far, their presence in Gulthmere-proper (the canon forest, before I added to it) is probably within the past century or so.

I now realize Nobanion was probably there before the halflings, but it could still go either way.

Also - note that I placed Fort Doom arbitrarily, and it wound-up landing right on top of the of Karsus' tower - HOW FORTUITOUS!!!
Now we know why Bargle puts up with that maniac - he is dying to explore the under-crypts (ruins) below the castle.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 30 May 2012 22:42:05
Go to Top of Page

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4047 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2012 :  23:38:35  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The heaviest early settlements by the Hin were around modern Tothmeer; it was where they "came ashore" in their new homeland.

I figured the Hin have been scattered throughout the entire region for a very long time...loosely at first, but over time much more heavily vested in the lands.

The way the orginial canon material of the Five Shires sounds, they have deep history in the entire shires...so I'm not sure exactly how to work the whole thing.

The Halflings do have "Masters" (i.e. Druids) who are actually their "second priesthood", where the Keepers are the actual Clerics who keep the Black Flame.

I'll be able to better mesh things when I see your final map.

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2012 :  06:55:57  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, thats kinda of how I was picturing it, to mesh things - that Hin have always been there, in bits and drabs, and then as other Halfling Realms fell (and other races moved into regions they called home) - like Meiritin - they migrated to Gulthmere region where others could be found (and a lot closer then Luiren).

So the Five Shires "just sorta happened". They 'were always there', but it has only become a recognized state recently (a similar history to Cormyr, growth-wise).

Having two names for things works out - we/you can just run with what you did with Amry/Shireton... that the Hin have their own names for stuff.

NEW WIP - At least you can see where everything fall out now.

I noticed quite a few mispellings and other descrepencies on the Five Shires map (from the text), so I corrected everything as I went along, and added in the 'Hin name' where applicable. The name of the mountain range (Cruth) isn't even mentioned in the Mystara material, as far as I can tell, so I just used that as a name for some hills. I also nudged a couple of things around from the first WIP (having found Gurnth, amongst other things).

Thats as far as I plan to go with that one, for now - I need to go to a smaller regional map to fit in all the details (like roads, and naming the waterways, etc). The new one will be just of Gulthmere. When I am done with that, I will revisit the larger campaign-area map (clean it up a bit more, and add a scale & compass rose, etc).


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 31 May 2012 07:00:34
Go to Top of Page

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4047 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2012 :  12:17:15  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It looks awesome MT!

Also though...Guilder and Florin?

My wife will be sooooo happy!

Now I just need to write up the stats for the Dread Pirate Roberts!

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
Go to Top of Page

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4047 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2012 :  13:02:49  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay


Thats as far as I plan to go with that one, for now - I need to go to a smaller regional map to fit in all the details (like roads, and naming the waterways, etc). The new one will be just of Gulthmere. When I am done with that, I will revisit the larger campaign-area map (clean it up a bit more, and add a scale & compass rose, etc).





Hey, what you have done so far is amazing...if you do more that is only butter on the toast!

Would you consider making the Five Shires in a map that included more northerly realms such as Sembia? I'm not being picky about what you have made so far...but my game is going to center around the Five Shires, Cormyr, Sembia, the Dales and the Elven Court...so I'm just "Christmas Shopping" here with ya!

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
Go to Top of Page

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4047 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2012 :  13:39:51  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Markustay: A couple of things I've noticed on the map that stand out as a needed fix are a town name and an island placement:

You have "Flagontard" ...should be "Flagonford"

Toth Isle is supposed to be at the mouth of the river near Tothmeer.

EDIT (8:55 a.m EST 5/31/12): I also forgot that Tothmeer has a population of 11,600 and Thantabbar a population of 10,000. I think I'm going to be decreasing some of the heavy population of the Shires cities (those are HUGE NUMBERS for the area); but that would still make Tothmeer a larger city than Thantabbar...as for map-making purposes.

For future maps you talked about roads...I think trails would be better. If we are going to say the Hin have only truly started "civilizing" (as far as Hin consider it...others might hardly NOTICE Hin Civilization!) the interior, I think trails would be best instead of roads. To the Hin they would work just fine as roads...but their carts and wagons might be far smaller than for others; and so better described as trails because they don't offer the true benefit of a road to bigger folk.

@Anyone at all:

Other than that, I just don't know anything about:

Machran Spire...have any information on that I can use?

Gurnth...what is there?

Any other suggestions from folks?

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!

Edited by - Dalor Darden on 31 May 2012 13:57:00
Go to Top of Page

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4047 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2012 :  13:43:36  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
OH! Smuggler's Bank and Redwater...where are those two towns/villages from?

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2012 :  17:52:54  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They were in the FRIA, and I believe I've seen at least Redwater on one other map. I named it Blood Lake, rather then 'Red Lake' or 'The Redwater' (which is already used twice). I think its supposed to be one long lake, but RW - and elswhere in the Realms - such situations always get different names for the different parts. My assumption here is that there is a heavy amount of iron in the surrounding rock, and the rust gives the water a reddish hue (and also tastes pretty disgusting). The reasons for that assumption are two-fold: 1) The usage of the 'Redwater' name on those other two things, and 2) The soil must be very rocky around that lake, with major mineral deposits, BECAUSE "Why hasn't a kingdom sprung-up around such an excellent body of water, with major sea-access?"

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

@Markustay: A couple of things I've noticed on the map that stand out as a needed fix are a town name and an island placement:

You have "Flagontard" ...should be "Flagonford"
And THAT is what happens when you are labeling crap at 5AM.

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Toth Isle is supposed to be at the mouth of the river near Tothmeer.
I didn't think it was that important - I merely 'snipped-off' the tip of the original FR coastline. I still like the way that looks (I think I did it on the Ixinos map as well), so I'll just throw another island near tothmeer, if you like.

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

I also forgot that Tothmeer has a population of 11,600 and Thantabbar a population of 10,000. I think I'm going to be decreasing some of the heavy population of the Shires cities (those are HUGE NUMBERS for the area); but that would still make Tothmeer a larger city than Thantabbar...as for map-making purposes.
I only adjusted one town 'upward' in size, because it was at a crossroads and made more sense that way (and I also checked its population - its definitely on the high-end of 'village').

Why has the population grown so much in the past few centuries, even though halflings have always lived along the coast (in small fishing villages)? First there was the fall of Meiritan - not all of them went north to Sunset Vale. Then there was Black Oaks/Grey Oaks in Cormyr - halfling populations exist all over the realms, and they are constantly getting displaced. Thus far, they have found the Gulthmere attractive enough to make it a new Hin homeland, but not so attractive as to have others 'kill them and take their stuff'. In fact, its one of the few times they have actively purged others from any area, rather then the other way around.

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

For future maps you talked about roads...I think trails would be better. If we are going to say the Hin have only truly started "civilizing" (as far as Hin consider it...others might hardly NOTICE Hin Civilization!) the interior, I think trails would be best instead of roads. To the Hin they would work just fine as roads...but their carts and wagons might be far smaller than for others; and so better described as trails because they don't offer the true benefit of a road to bigger folk.
OKay, now you're getting all 'changey' on me.

Glad I didn't do them yet - roads are a bear, and you have to do them pretty-much freehand. I can take a shortcut with the Path Tool, but you can't do that with dotted lines (not even in PS).

quote:
Machran Spire...have any information on that I can use?

Gurnth...what is there?
See my other thread in the Sages of Realmslore section - those questions got answered.

quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden

Any other suggestions from folks?
I ALWAYS have more.

I have to read through your history, and then the canon history of certain other things (like locales in the Orsraun Mts), and then I would like to give an outline along the lines of "This is how I see it all going down" - a very generalized history of how everything interacted, and how such a realm could have 'happened by accident', and right under the noses of everyone without anyone realizing what was going on (until the halflings were firmly entrenched).

If you don't mind, of course - you don't have to use any of it, its more a 'broad strokes' type of thing that you can tweak the hell out of (sort of how we/you progressed with some of the Ixinos material). I believe someone over on the WotC forums once described my 'technique' as "Throwing stuff at a wall, and seeing what sticks".

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 31 May 2012 18:00:56
Go to Top of Page

Dalor Darden
Great Reader

USA
4047 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2012 :  17:53:55  Show Profile Send Dalor Darden a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok...I've just run into a bit of a problem.

The population of the Five Shires is approximately 220,000 souls (counting Hin and friendly populations...not monsters).

In the military section of the book, it says Hin military strength at FULL MUSTER is 60% of that (YIKES! = 132,000). Now I know most of that would be peasants with a dagger or a sling...so I'm going to be ok with that.

However, the STANDING military strength of the land is 10-15 percent. This number is a bit more scary to me. That is 22,000 to 33,000 troops...for halflings.

Now, a LOT of that can go to town guard, merchant caravans and etc. But that is still a lot of Halflings under arms!

I mean, an army of even 10,000 halflings armed as described would make:

all have slings, daggers and shortswords
4% have an additional Shortbow
10% have a spear
10% have pikes

On the field that is:

7,600 Light Infantry Slinger Skirmishers
1,000 Heavy Infantry Spearmen (heavy for Halfling)
1,000 Pikemen
400 archers

I don't know if I like that, or the way halflings are described in Monster Manual I (One); which would break down 10k troops this way:

all armed with daggers AND:
1,000 Shortsword and Shortbow
1,000 Shortbow
2,000 Sling
1,000 Shortsword
1,000 Shortsword and Spear
2,000 Spear
2,000 Hand Axe

What do you guys think?

The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me!
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2012 :  18:16:47  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
None of the canon army strengths in the Realms makes much sense, why should the Five Shires? This subject has been beaten-to-death many times here and elsewhere.

The 60% number is ludicrous. Half the Hin are female, and probably half are also children. That already cuts you down to about 25% of your pop, not including oldsters (of which there should be many - halflings live a long time). I realize that some females, older kids, and even old folks could still participate, but that gets offset by folks who just plain can't/won't fight. I would just ignore that figure (why should that one thing bother you, when you are converting an entire nation?)

Then there is that other thing I touched upon above - the armies of Faerun. They are so badly mismatched (by RW standards) simply because The Realms has magic, and also a higher level of tech then their civilizations would normally allow. Hin are mall, with almost no magic - you know what Orcs call that? Lunch.

A hundred War Wizards, Zhentish Mages, or Red Wizards would chew-up an army of 20-30K. The only reason why they haven't is because of the few 'nasty surprises' that that Hin have (which are detailed in the Five Shires supplement).

And its pretty much ALL militia - Halflings don't go to war, it comes to them.

Don't the Old Empires have massive armies? And the cities of the Vilhon Reach are all militaristic, IIRC. Seems to me that that army should be helped by someone (like the Chosen in times of need), rather then nerfed. With the two canon FR groups you have present in Gulthmere, that should actually take care of that problem (and you could include their numbers in that 20K figure).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 31 May 2012 18:20:14
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 8 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2020 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000