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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
 Posted - 08 May 2012 : 12:18:06
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I'm not sure if this question was ever made in this forum, and it is a 2e-related question, so there it goes:
Which spells have the Netherese learned from the elves? The Netheril boxed set says that the earlier Netherese learned magic from the elves, and only later they developed their own spells. However, the way the Netheril books were written makes us believe the human realm developed all the 2e PHB spells... So, which spells were known to the elves before that, and what happened to those spells?
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"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 11 May 2012 17:33:54
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2012 : 14:35:19
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Those tables on the year spells were developed are a little confusing, I agree. I think the way to look at it is that those are the dates that the magics were reworked in the Netherese style (ie: without somatic components). Remember also that in addition to the elves, who had been throwing powerful magic around for thousands of years, you also had the human realm of Imaskar, which was even more powerful than Netheril.
I would imagine that most if not all of the PHB spells already existed in both elven and Imaskari spellbooks for all of Netheril's existence. However, they were the more "traditional" spells, as seen in the PHB. I doubt Netheril had much contact with Imaskar, at least in the early days, and the Neth turned from the elves fairly early as well, so not all of them might have made it to Netheril. Or, wizards being wizards, those outside spellbooks could have been hoarded and kept secret by the few who owned them.
I think it's possible that at least some of the arcanists who supposedly invented the spells, and stuck their names on them, were just reverse-engineering already-existing magics that they had gotten in either scroll or spellbook form. The unique Netherese magic would be the non-PHB stuff, most of which never made it into print. They would be the wild and wacky kinds of spells, like those found in the Seven Sisters book. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2012 : 17:44:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
(...) I think the way to look at it is that those are the dates that the magics were reworked in the Netherese style (ie: without somatic components). Remember also that in addition to the elves, who had been throwing powerful magic around for thousands of years, you also had the human realm of Imaskar, which was even more powerful than Netheril. (...)
This is a good way of explaining things, indeed. Although I think at least some would be invented by the Netherese, maybe some of the more "magic raw" variety (like "magic missile", for maybe the elven offensive spells would come from the elements, for example).
And I haven't forgotten the Imaskari, and other older peoples that dabbled in magic before the Netherese, I only focused on the elves because they suposedly taught the Netherese. And yes, at least some of the spells in "Seven Sisters" could be ancient enchantments, just like some from the "Tome of Magic" and "Spells & Magic" accessories. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 08 May 2012 17:47:05 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2012 : 11:39:53
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| What about early Netherese magical items? Or Netherese permanent magical items, special items made by wizards (or arcanists) who wanted to leave their mark inthe realm's history... Don't you think even with quasimagic available it makes sense that some spellcasters would choose to spend a CON point to do at least one fabulous masterpiece, like an artifact? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2012 : 12:06:37
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The tables dating spells in Netheril were actually quite horrible. I fear they were not well thought out and just attempted to do some late-night indexing of all the spells which appeared in the 2E PHB. The spells in these lists appear in the same order (alphabetic in the PHB), they were apparently "invented" by archwizards then invented again millennia later by fellows like Bigby and Melf on Oerth, numerous spells from non-PHB sources are not included even though they are described as being just as old as (or predating) Netheril.
Having said that, it is plausible that the Netherese - like every other magical civilization - had to discover the basics from scratch and adapt to peculiarities unique to their magic-governing deity. I would also wonder how many other civilizations before and after Netheril had access to the Nether Scrolls (or at least the information within them), since that might explain commonalities between their magical systems and formulae.
Netheril does describe a few permanent magical items, including several artifacts of true power. Foremost among these are the mythallar formed with Mystra-banned über-spellcraft, of course, and only those of Shade, Sakkors, and Opus are known to still function. Other Realmslore offers generic and specific descriptions of various magical items (mostly weaponry) said to be fashioned in ancient places like Netheril and Myth Drannor. Many magical items like Ioun stones were said to originally be created in Netheril. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 10 May 2012 12:13:52 |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2012 : 15:15:47
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| I would trust those spell tables in the Netheril boxed set about as much as I would trust Volo to serve as the Open Lord of Waterdeep. |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2012 : 15:37:35
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Well, that's one way of putting it. I was trying to be a bit more... um... politic about it. Or inclusive. Or something.
Actually, I do think it's an interesting idea, being able to trace the development of magics over time. Of course, it's made more tedious by the fact that every single spell has a different name (which must have been just as annoying to design as it is to try and figure out as a reader). |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2012 : 15:42:34
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As for the commonalities approach, I think it's more likely that stems from the elves. They were the dominant race during the age prior to that of the humans, they were widespread, and they have a great deal of magical insight. Plus, we know that in at least some places they actively helped the nascent humans master magic (Netheril being the prime example).
I think it's likely that most of the modern Faerunian system was codified by the elves, based on their own magic and things they acquired from the dragons, giants, and other races that came before them. Then they shared it with those who came after, like the humans and the gnomes, who adapted it to their own situations. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2012 : 15:49:42
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| This brings me another question: how was elven magic before they had contact with the Nether scrolls? Was there a different kind of magic - I mean for common spellcasters, besides High Magic - in Faerie? I ask because it seems that all weave magic (Netherese and from earlier kingdoms, maybe) is tied to the famous scrolls of the sarrukh. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 10 May 2012 15:53:52 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2012 : 16:25:52
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| The elves had no relation to the Netheril scrolls at all, until Cormanthor got curious and stole a set, but that was centuries after Netheril got going. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2012 : 20:09:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
This brings me another question: how was elven magic before they had contact with the Nether scrolls? Was there a different kind of magic - I mean for common spellcasters, besides High Magic - in Faerie? I ask because it seems that all weave magic (Netherese and from earlier kingdoms, maybe) is tied to the famous scrolls of the sarrukh.
-"Plain old" magic, used by Elves.
-As we see via Spelljamming and Planeswalking, there is no special 'adaptation period' where someone who comes from elsewhere has to get used to being in Realmspace and the Weave. It just happens (seemingly instantly) and that's that. The magical traditions used by the Elves were simply ported over into Realmspace via the various immigrations, and that's all she wrote. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2012 : 16:58:09
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And yet, even if gnomes learned from the elves, it is canon that a gnome hero read a nether scroll and learned illusionism through it. If we follow Hoondatha's reasoning, it would be the old D&D magic indeed. If not, this question is basically the first one: which kind of magic or spells existed in Faerie or was brought with them to be taught to the early Netherese? However, I think the best is to stick to Hoondatha's answer.
A new question: the fey creator race left the Realms before or after the creation of the scrolls? Could they had learned from them before leaving to Faerie? If not, would they be the developers of the basis of elven - and traditional - magic? IMHO, the fey race was the most naturally-inclined to magic, and they or their elven "children" developed magic as we know (and with responsibility, as they seek equilibrium in exploring any natural resource).
The sarrukh discovered another way of tapping magical power, but after some time the energy was to be deployed. And humans - as a creator race -, have they learned magic only after reading the scrolls (like the Imaskari), or only the Netherese learned in that way? My point is that according to some sources, magic from the weave seems to come only from contact with the scrolls, but there are clues about it coming from other sources. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
Edited by - Barastir on 11 May 2012 17:01:12 |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2012 : 17:44:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
(...)
Netheril does describe a few permanent magical items, including several artifacts of true power. Foremost among these are the mythallar formed with Mystra-banned über-spellcraft, of course, and only those of Shade, Sakkors, and Opus are known to still function. Other Realmslore offers generic and specific descriptions of various magical items (mostly weaponry) said to be fashioned in ancient places like Netheril and Myth Drannor. Many magical items like Ioun stones were said to originally be created in Netheril.
Is the Mythallar a permanent magic item? I was thinking if we could consider it that way. And I thought I read somewhere that the new magic structure, after the (re)birth of Mystril/Mystra would prevent the Mythallars from functioning in the Realms after the fall of Netheril.
As of those "various magical items (mostly weaponry) said to be fashioned in ancient places like Netheril and Myth Drannor", can you sages mention any sources, especially of Netherese items?
I like to play in a less-magic version of the Realms, and I kinda determined that powerful items (like special swords or weapons above +3, and multi-functional items like staves of thunder, for example), are from the old magic-rich times and lost realms.
Oh, and I have forgotten about the Ioun Stones, and I remember a handful of items cited on the box. I only expected more items and new spells, or at least the references to find them in earlier numbers of Dragon or Dungeon magazine.
One more question: where can I find info about the Opus and Sakkors mythallars? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2012 : 20:29:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
A new question: the fey creator race left the Realms before or after the creation of the scrolls? Could they had learned from them before leaving to Faerie? If not, would they be the developers of the basis of elven - and traditional - magic? IMHO, the fey race was the most naturally-inclined to magic, and they or their elven "children" developed magic as we know (and with responsibility, as they seek equilibrium in exploring any natural resource).
-Outside of Sarifal (first founded in -10,500 DR, long after the Days of Thunder and the Dawn Ages had ended), as far as we know, the leShay (Fey Creator Race) never established any kind of realms in Realmspace, or ruled over any territories, or were otherwise interested in colonizing it. Their story is limited to the Plane of Faerie (they began ruling over parts or all of the Plane of Faerie starting circa -34,000 DR), with periodic individuals having influenced assorted going ons in Realmspace (opening portals to allow the transfer of various Fey and Sylvan creatures, as well as Elves, to go from the Plane of Faerie to Realmspace, making alliances with certain Imaskari artificers).
-They were already ruling parts of the Plane of Faerie when the Ba'etith was founded (-34,000 DR) and when the Ba'etith created the Nether Scrolls (-30,000 DR), so it is fairly safe to say that leShay did not garner their magical skills/affinities from that source.
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
One more question: where can I find info about the Opus and Sakkors mythallars?
-Regarding Opus, it is a relativity minor enclave (in the grand scheme of the "story" of Netheril), so it has gotten relatively minor coverage. The city itself and what befell it is talked about in Netheril: Empire of Magic and Player's Guide to Faerūn (3e), but that's it; nothing delves into any details about it's mythallar. Sakkors has a lot more written about it, because it possesses a unique mythallar. It was introduced and elaborated upon in the Erevis Cale and Twilight War trilogies, written by Paul Kemp. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 11 May 2012 20:37:16 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2012 : 23:18:23
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I think being a magic user is a lot like be an engineer - there are the methods you would normally employ to do something - be it build a bridge, construct a building or monument, carve-out a canal or erect a dam, etc - and then you have your greater knowledge of the principles involved, which you can apply to figure out work-arounds in specific, adverse situations.
Note in tRotAW trilogy, Galaeron finds it fairly easy to continue to cast spells using his known (arcane) techniques, despite casting from the Shadow weave. Granted, he is a sorcerer, which means he would be able to pick-up (and overcome) the differences quicker then a wizard, but he was still able to cast spells he knew before with the new source of power.
What this means is the basic mechanics of magic remain fairly constant, and one need merely adjust a few minor things in order to make use of whatever power-source makes itself available. On Toril, the easiest source to use is The Weave, but its not the only source, and many more exist outside of Realmspace. Sorcerers should be able to acclimate themselves almost immediately (its part of their nature), but Wizards may need a round or three to get used things.
So getting back to my engineer comparison: An engineer that works for Ford may be an expert at building gasoline car engines... but that doesn't mean he couldn't build a diesel engine, or even one that ran on jet or rocket fuel, if given enough time. Its just a matter of applying the math of the new source to the thing he wishes to accomplish.
I would also hazard to guess that its level-based, just as an engineer's ability depends on how much previous knowledge (schooling and experience) he has. An archmage should be able to acclimate himself to a new environment almost instantly, just like a sorcerer. An apprentice, on the other hand, may find it nearly impossible to do any of the stuff he could normally do, without a lot of time and practice.
Thus, the multiverse has a built-in balancing factor- normally only very powerful spellcasters go planeswalking, and those are precisely the people who have no problems casting spells in strange places. In fact, you can almost look at Mystra's weave as a 'set of training wheels'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 May 2012 23:21:53 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 12:35:52
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Shade/Thultanthar has received the most attention, and probably the "best" canon detail (again, not much) would be from the Return of the Archwizards and subsequent Twilight War novel trilogies. Sakkors is detailed most briefly (hardly a page) in Sea of Fallen Stars. Opus is hardly a footnote. The most informative source of information about Netheril-era mythallar and magics is of course Netheril itself, along with the other three products from the 2E Arcane Age series.
A mythallar is most certainly a permanent magical item. Ideally, the only one an arcanist would ever need to fashion in his entire career, since it could then power an entire floating enclave and every quasi-magical item within a radius of miles. In AD&D rules the big problem with crafting magical items was that the enchantments would fade or be depleted (like charges) over a relatively short time unless "locked into place" with a permanency or wish spell ... and these particular spells inflicted significant permanent attribute loss, aging, etc. I expect a Netherese archwizard with a life expectancy of many centuries would hardly plan to fashion a dozen permanent magical items and suffer -12 penalty to his CON score for the rest of his days, not when he instead had the option of just doing it once to create a mythallar (not only powering any number of quasimagical items, but also establishing himself as a proper archwizard with his own floating enclave).
Note that permanency is not in fact truly permanent. The spell description states that it can begin to weaken, flicker, or fail intermittently after many centuries or millennia have passed. I imagine this depends a lot on the same sort of vague "local magical conditions" which might affect teleporting, planar travel, wards, and similar stuff. A few modules involving ancient sites or liches or magics are based on this premise; it even appears in the FR0 "Halls of The Beast-Tamers" adventure set within Myth Drannor.
The 2E Tome of Magic introduced the persistence spell - effectively a lower-level permanency spell which inflicted no permanent penalties on the caster and "only" lasted a few years or perhaps decades before the dweomer failed.
I've always considered magic to be something like technology - it can be organic or artificial, it can craft things with "biodegradable" lifespans or it can craft things to outlast civilizations. Some magical "pollution" in the Realms is comparable to radioactive fallout or toxic waste in terms of how it devastates the landscape over a window of many generations (or aeons!). |
[/Ayrik] |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2012 : 16:31:00
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True enough, if a Mythallar is considered a magical item, it would be the legacy of an archmage. My question about other permanent magical items from Netheril was that, even though many Arcanists would prefer not to sacrifice themselves (in age, CON points or whatever means necessary to make lots of items), I think some of them would do one or a few items that could last for eons, and maybe make history. And, of course, there would be Netherese magical items prior to the creation fo the Mythalars.
My point is that there are only a handful of magic item references in the Netheril boxed set (those that aren't quasi-magical). But then, if there are scattered references of Netherese magic items somewhere, does anyone have them compiled somewhere? Is there any reference you remember, besides the Undermountain blast scepters? Any reference is welcome. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2012 : 16:48:11
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I would think of it first in terms of classes of magic items. What are the magic item traditions of the culture?
Netherese arcanists favored mantles (a different variant than elven wizards) and scepters (a different variant than Mulan priests). LEoF had "Create Scepter" as a particular Netherese and Mulan tradition. Mantles are possible, but it takes some thought. (I think George had done some real good work on this a while back, but I don't know if it had ever gotten published.) "Runestaffs" in the Magic Item Compendium are a brilliant way of doing staffs more like Ed envisioned them (IMO) and could easily be a Netherese tradition.
Then, once you've got the traditions figured out, come up with some signature examples of each.
--Eric
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
True enough, if a Mythallar is considered a magical item, it would be the legacy of an archmage. My question about other permanent magical items from Netheril was that, even though many Arcanists would prefer not to sacrifice themselves (in age, CON points or whatever means necessary to make lots of items), I think some of them would do one or a few items that could last for eons, and maybe make history. And, of course, there would be Netherese magical items prior to the creation fo the Mythalars.
My point is that there are only a handful of magic item references in the Netheril boxed set (those that aren't quasi-magical). But then, if there are scattered references of Netherese magic items somewhere, does anyone have them compiled somewhere? Is there any reference you remember, besides the Undermountain blast scepters? Any reference is welcome.
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2012 : 20:00:52
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| Thank you very much, Mr. Boyd. I think I could also focus on the rods, since the "normal" rods on PHB are powerful items (like the rods of absorption, rulership, cancellation, lordly might and terror). Anyone else with some book or magazine reference? |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2012 : 21:00:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Barastir
Thank you very much, Mr. Boyd. I think I could also focus on the rods, since the "normal" rods on PHB are powerful items (like the rods of absorption, rulership, cancellation, lordly might and terror). Anyone else with some book or magazine reference?
The challenge with rods is they are kind of a grab-bag magic item type more like wondrous items than anything else. I would probably associate most rods with the clerical tradition of the church of Bane, not the Netherese. |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 13:28:09
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
(...) I would probably associate most rods with the clerical tradition of the church of Bane, not the Netherese.
I'd say it makes sense by the list of powers of the rods (lordly might, rulership, and terror, among others). |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1600 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2012 : 11:31:36
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| Fellow sages, no one has references of Netherese items published in Realms books or products, or in the Dungeon or Dragon magazines? I prefer 2e material, but you could also tell me if there's newer material. |
"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."
The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood) |
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Pre-Netherese Spells and Magic items
