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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
 Posted - 01 May 2012 : 00:18:51
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Hello Scribes,
I have a curious question. How honourable are the Zhentarim? Does their sense of duty and law extend to something like trial by combat or sticking to their word?
I'm thinking of many of those movie-moments where the hero challanges the villan to a duel to earn their freedom etc. I'm not sure if this sense of fair play exists among the clergy of bane as I often thought of them as a 'my way or the highway' sort. However I know Fzoul has a kind of gentlemen's agreement with Khelben concerning Zhentarim expansion....which he seems to be sticking to.
What are your thoughts?
-Eli
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Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 01:55:50
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If we're talking clergy, I think they would be honorable to the degree that there are real, measurable consequences for not keeping it.
If we're talking an agent or non-priest of Bane, I'd say these guys have, on average, no honor, though there may be the occasional agent who does. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 02:01:10
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Zhents can be any alignment, just like anybody else. The Zhentilar (Black Network) as an organization has members of from all three Evil alignments, plus some Neutrals and any number of others who serve as dupes and pawns. The leadership of both Zhentil Keep and the Zhentilar - Manshoon (LE), Sememmon (changed, NE, LE, LN), Fzoul Chembryl (LE) were absolute tyrants who traditionally worshipped Bane, and later (when forced) accepted Cyric for a while.
AD&D (1E) FR0, 2E FRA and Ruins of Zhentil Keep provide many details about Zhentilar membership, including their stats and alignments.
Characters who observe a code of Honor are typically Lawful, even Lawful Evil. But the Zhent people have hard lives filled with oppression enforced through steel, lash, and wand ... they are forced to recognize the power of Bane (or the Pretender) ... they live in a world where the weak serve the strong. Zhents will typically observe the Keep's rigid laws (for fear of otherwise being caught and harshly punished), and those laws are written by the strong to serve the strong, but there is little need for Honor, indeed it could be seen as a weakness or fallacy which can be used to manipulate Honorable fools. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 01 May 2012 02:08:49 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 02:06:34
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My usage of the Zhentarim (in my campaign Manshoon is the leader still, and not simply a functionary or symbol of some sort) is that only the rarest have what many would call honor. Instead, they worry more about their loyalties and perceived value to the organization.
I play the Zhentarim as a criminal syndicate...and so there are certain rules; but nothing that would even really note Lawful behavior.
In stark contrast are the Zhentilar. The soldiers of Zhentil keep, almost as a requirement would exhibit more lawful traits, and quite often even be non-evil. I usually have most of the Zhentilar as the Lawful Neutral sort.
Both of the "Naug" organizations are some cutthroat bastiches though, and to me the wizards are more akin to Neutral Evil (each of them out for what they want) while the thieves and spies I usually make Chaotic Neutral or Chaotic Evil because they are not, strictly speaking, a thieve's guild at all...but instead a patchwork of unrelated informants and hitmen.
I play the Priests of Bane (there is no god Cyric in my current vision of the Realms...there was not really a large change in things after the Time of Troubles) are much more Lawful Evil than any other group, but still perfectly willing to benefit their own status by the death of another priest so long as they don't get caught. Fzoul keeps a pretty tight leash on them all in my game however, because the Orthodox Banites are an enemy he would much rather work against...and so he directs his clergy in that direction as much as possible to prevent them being at each other's throats. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 02:08:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Zhents can be any alignment, just like anybody else. The Zhentilar (Black Network) as an organization has members of from all three Evil alignments, plus some Neutrals and any number of others who serve as dupes and pawns. The leadership of both Zhentil Keep and the Zhentilar - Manshoon (LE), Sememmon (changed, NE, LE, LN), Fzoul Chembryl (LE) were absolute tyrants who traditionally worshipped Bane, and later (when forced) accepted Cyric for a while.
AD&D (1E) FR0, 2E FRA and Ruins of Zhentil Keep provide many details about Zhentilar membership, including their stats and alignments.
Just as a friendly reminder: the Zhentilar are the common soldiers and officers of Zhentil Keeps military. The Zhentarim are the criminal organization which controls the city (and thus the military).
It is a slight difference, but some men and women of the Zhentilar would be wholly offended if it was said they were Zhentarim. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 02:10:37
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| Ah, I mixed up the terminology a little perhaps, I meant the criminal Black Network organization, not the soldiery or general population of Zhentil Keep. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 13:51:24
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Interesting thoughts.
So would a Zhent Cleric/soldier (during bane's rule) abide by the rules of a duel for instance? and surrender to the victor? or would they simply order their men to shoot the winner down if they still could afterwards.
I guess I'm curious about Fzoul's bargain with Khelben...and how pervasive that idea of honouring deals is (even if it's not logistically helpful/necessary). |
Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 14:32:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Eli the Tanner
Interesting thoughts.
So would a Zhent Cleric/soldier (during bane's rule) abide by the rules of a duel for instance? and surrender to the victor? or would they simply order their men to shoot the winner down if they still could afterwards.
I guess I'm curious about Fzoul's bargain with Khelben...and how pervasive that idea of honouring deals is (even if it's not logistically helpful/necessary).
The only thing I could offer on this is remembering the tenants of Lawful Evil.
Lawful Evil individuals do not idealize law for the betterment of others, but as a tool of oppression and control.
In your example, I don't think a Lawful Evil Banite Cleric/Soldier would even enter an honest duel. It would be easier for them to obtain victory by crushing an enemy to start with. As for being challenged to begin with, a Banite Cleric might think they are superior in station to anyone outside their own organization, and so simply have challengers crushed. If they entered a duel at all they would have to feel they had no chance of losing...and such a duel would be to the death most likely.
However, this is only my own personal take on it. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 14:33:15
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| The problem with criminal organizations is that, in the end, most of the members are only out for themselves. They are always seeking power and advancement, usually at the expense (or death)of their peers. Because of this I would expect that any sense of "honor" found in the organization is very limited. Think how powerful these organizations could be if the higher-ups hadn't murdered all of their in house competitors on their way to the top. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 14:45:11
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
The problem with criminal organizations is that, in the end, most of the members are only out for themselves. They are always seeking power and advancement, usually at the expense (or death)of their peers. Because of this I would expect that any sense of "honor" found in the organization is very limited. Think how powerful these organizations could be if the higher-ups hadn't murdered all of their in house competitors on their way to the top.
I agree with this. For Manshoon to truly rule the Zhentarim early on, he had to ensure that other powerful wizards (even those not affiliated with him) were eliminated from Zhentil Keep...or another wizard might have challenged him.
Just the same with Fzoul and the Church of Bane...for Fzoul to be "the most powerful Banite Cleric" he had to splinter from the Orthodox church (which had a much more powerful cleric as its leader) and start his own Banite Brand.
The others could be seen the same way I'm sure; though I make exception for the Zhentilar. While the Zhent army might be controlled losely by the Zhentarim, it is still not the same thing as the Zhentarim.
A similar way to look at it this: take the combined United States military. It remains officially non-partisan, but at various times its Commander in Chief might be from whatever political party exists within the U.S. capable of having their candidate elected.
Unfortunately for the Zhentilar Army, there is truly only one party from which their city usually pulls its leadership. Officially (back in the day), the "Leader" of the Zhentilar could have been seen as Lord Ches. Since that rather weak willed fellow was ruled by Manshoon, Manshoon could use the Zhentilar army for whatever needs he had; so long as their use was primarily seen to benefit the city of Zhentil Keep. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 16:03:47
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This is like asking "How honorable is the human race?"
In other words, it varies by individual........ a LOT. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 17:27:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This is like asking "How honorable is the human race?"
In other words, it varies by individual........ a LOT.
Ahh and there was me thinking there were all these cultural, religious and societal influences going on from which one could examine the propensity of Zhent behaviour....darn!
or is this your chaos theory seeping out?  |
Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms |
Edited by - Eli the Tanner on 01 May 2012 17:28:35 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 19:34:42
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Nope - no society is strictly made up of all the same people (except maybe on Bizarro world). Societys are composed of individuals.
Case in point: that 'kindly' DROW mage that was Liriel's tutor. The only reaon why he could survive in such a society is because he was very powerful, useful (to many), and hid his uncharacteristic behavior.
We also saw MANY 'shades of grey' in Zhentish society in Prince of Lies. The Orc general turned-out to be one of the 'good guys' (in a very informal, chaotic way). Some of the Zhentish characters REALLY surprised me - I suggest you start there.
Judging all Zhents by Manshoon is like judging all Thayans by Szass Tam, or judging all Waerdeepans by Khelben Blackstaff (or Elaith Craulnober). Both of those last two have moments when their normal behavior will tend toward the exact opposite (Khaleben believes in the philosophy "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few", and Elaith has a soft-spot for elves). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 19:41:49
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Honor, as almost all things are, are culture-relative---e.g. what's honorable in Evareska may be dishonorable in Sembia. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 21:40:20
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Having a Lawful alignment does not mean absolute unswerving unquestioning obeyance of every promise and agreement ever made. Lawful Samurai types might always choose death before dishonour. But Lawful Evil Banites might usually choose to observe at least the literal "letter" of the agreement, preferring to follow the rules but always willing to manipulate them in ways which exploit inferiors. Most would follow the rules and laws for fear of being caught and punished, rather than from any sense of honor or integrity; they do after all have faith in the absolute power of a divine tyrant.
The thoughts and deeds of individuals can overlap or confuse D&D alignments. Few people could realistically and consistently be labelled with any single alignment (aside from Paladins, Druids, and other alignment-champions), Good people will sometimes make selfishly Evil decisions, Chaotics sometimes abide the rules of larger structures or groups. People of most extreme alignments (especially LG Paladins) must often make difficult choices between justice, compassion, and duty ... the world is imperfect and alignment labels even more imperfect. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2012 : 01:18:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Nope - no society is strictly made up of all the same people (except maybe on Bizarro world). Societys are composed of individuals.
This goes without saying really. But it does not mean all societies are the same or have the same distribution of qualities. The cultures and perspectives vary greatly from one to another.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Case in point: that 'kindly' DROW mage that was Liriel's tutor. The only reaon why he could survive in such a society is because he was very powerful, useful (to many), and hid his uncharacteristic behavior.
Again true, but if asked to describe drow society or attitudes would such exceptions invalidate the pervading norms? Saying 'All drow are different', while technically true, avoids the discussion and misrepresents the shape of the bell curve.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
We also saw MANY 'shades of grey' in Zhentish society in Prince of Lies. The Orc general turned-out to be one of the 'good guys' (in a very informal, chaotic way). Some of the Zhentish characters REALLY surprised me - I suggest you start there.
Judging all Zhents by Manshoon is like judging all Thayans by Szass Tam, or judging all Waerdeepans by Khelben Blackstaff (or Elaith Craulnober). Both of those last two have moments when their normal behavior will tend toward the exact opposite (Khaleben believes in the philosophy "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few", and Elaith has a soft-spot for elves).
I perfectly agree...all these examples and isolated cases are not evidence of the general culture itself. Which is where my question springs from.....How prevalant is this attitude?
The example of Fzoul seems a legitimate one to me, about whom one could ask such a question. As the de facto leader of the Zhentarim, Zhentil Keep and the church of Bane his behaviour strikes me as a good example of what most folk are required/inspired to follow...but in reality I do not know. Is his deal with khelben an unusual thing in Zhentish culture? Are agreements like this as lasting or as readily held as they would tend to be in Menzoberranzan? Is honouring deals an edict or respected quality in the church...or as Ayrik suggested, a sign of weakness? Is backstabbing or breaking your word considered fair game...or even expected?
Of course, whatever answer one has will be underscored by the 'people vary...a lot' sentiment but it doesn't mean similarities do not exist or it is redundant to ask about them.
I'm quite curious about your view markus, especially as you are well versed in Realmslore. Hopefully I can tease it out of you.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Having a Lawful alignment does not mean absolute unswerving unquestioning obeyance of every promise and agreement ever made. Lawful Samurai types might always choose death before dishonour. But Lawful Evil Banites might usually choose to observe at least the literal "letter" of the agreement, preferring to follow the rules but always willing to manipulate them in ways which exploit inferiors. Most would follow the rules and laws for fear of being caught and punished, rather than from any sense of honor or integrity; they do after all have faith in the absolute power of a divine tyrant.
Yeah...there is a tendency to overplay lawful characters as automatons. It's an interesting idea that their alignment is only kept in check by fear of authority...I wonder if Bane prefers that to the fervent worshippers who are truly law-abiding.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The thoughts and deeds of individuals can overlap or confuse D&D alignments. Few people could realistically and consistently be labelled with any single alignment (aside from Paladins, Druids, and other alignment-champions), Good people will sometimes make selfishly Evil decisions, Chaotics sometimes abide the rules of larger structures or groups. People of most extreme alignments (especially LG Paladins) must often make difficult choices between justice, compassion, and duty ... the world is imperfect and alignment labels even more imperfect.
Good point. I guess I'm trying to look beyond the alignment thing towards how this lawful-sense manifests culturally. Cormyr and Zhentil Keep could both be described as lawful but their cultures have quite different emphasis (which I think goes beyond just the good/evil divide). |
Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms |
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2012 : 17:58:39
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Futher thoughts I've had recently concern to what degree do the Zhents generally adhere to the rules of warfare? Are prisoners of war generally kept (beyond simply interrogation purposes)? Are cease fires and calls for parley honoured?
I gather people are reticent to comment on the attitudes of the zhents but maybe it will help me wrap my head around them a bit better. What distinguishes them from the backstabbing ways of the drow for instance? Are there some practices they would consider 'beneath them' or is all fair in war?
Any help is greatly appreciated
-Eli |
Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2012 : 18:38:09
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They honored their agreement with Cormyr and The Dales during the Tuigan War, even though it would have been easy and very beneficial for them to go back on their word.
So taken as individuals, they will usually stab-you-in-the-back when its most convenient, but as a sovereign nation, they tend to honor their treaties - it would be extremely foolish for them not to do so.
Zhents are also like devils - they will honor their agreements to the letter, but they will not necessarily honor the spirit of the agreement, when it suits their purposes.
At least, thats the feeling I get from everything I've read about them. Thats why I think its makes more sense for them to be Banites then Cyricists. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 07 May 2012 18:38:26 |
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2012 : 19:14:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They honored their agreement with Cormyr and The Dales during the Tuigan War, even though it would have been easy and very beneficial for them to go back on their word.
There is something to be said for the diplomacy of the Zhentarim. It's garnered them much more than might alone.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So taken as individuals, they will usually stab-you-in-the-back when its most convenient, but as a sovereign nation, they tend to honor their treaties - it would be extremely foolish for them not to do so.
An interesting duality. Does the honouring of agreements have a trickle-down effect I wonder? Which leads me on another of my thought-trains....how much autonamy do commanders have? There are quite a variety of personalities among the 'leaders' (Teldorn Darkhope, Darik Berskan, Kandar Milinal et al), each with their own degree of loyalty...but how much reign are these folk given with the 'Zhent brand'? Does carrying the colours of Zhentil Keep come with certain standards of conduct or policy for these commanders?
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Zhents are also like devils - they will honor their agreements to the letter, but they will not necessarily honor the spirit of the agreement, when it suits their purposes.
At least, thats the feeling I get from everything I've read about them. Thats why I think its makes more sense for them to be Banites then Cyricists.
This is a similar conception to what I have in mind and I never quite got on with the Cyricist concept either (but then neither did the zhents it seems). |
Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms |
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The Honour of the Zhentarim
