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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 22:31:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
You've never seen Shou silk, it's not real.
I've made a perfectly legitimate point, but you're welcome to stick to your beliefs about this imaginary fabric's quality.
I haven't made any statements about its quality. Which I should hope would be obvious if you would read my posts.
I have made statements that in order to justify continued demand for it, it would necessarily be distinguishable from substitute goods available at much lower prices.
This is not a controversial statement.
As it happens, though, Ed Greenwood has stated that Shou silk is perceived by most people as higher quality than Sembian silk. It was on the 21st of March, this year:
Ed has finally clawed aside enough time to properly reply, and here he is:
Hi, Icelander. The Shou empire does indeed export silk to the westerly lands detailed in most Realms products, and yes, the demand is great—because Shou silk is by far the best, making other silk garments (those of Var the Golden and the Utter East in the mid 1300s DR, for instance, and the small silk production in Murghom at the same time) seem coarse by comparison.
However, it’s (as usual) wrong to so closely compare the Realms to our real world. Silk making is not and never has been a Shou “secret,” and no one has to “steal” silkworms from anywhere—though some merchants have tried, following the mistaken thinking that the Shou worms are somehow superior.
What IS superior is the proper climate for silkworms to flourish; certain damp, warm southerly regions in the vast Shou lands are ideal for silkworms, just as a few damp, warm areas of western Faerûn are ideal (and the vast majority of territory in both places is unsuitable). In Sembia and most of the Heartlands and all of the Sword Coast and Moonsea North, it’s too cold in winter for silkworms to survive—and most attempts to keep them alive in heated dwellings and warehouses fail because the heating makes the microclimate in the rooms where the silkworms are kept too dry. Also, tiny mites that eat and sicken and ultimately kill silkworms are present in quantities in any home that has dogs, cats, and a lot of traffic (particularly children, at play) with the outdoors and farm animals.
What certain individuals in Sembia (concerned with shipping of fruits and fine textiles without much mold growth and ruination) thought of was that light, moisture, temperature, and other things need to be “right” for silkworms to produce superior silk. So they started tinkering—and their “best conditions” are their secrets, if they can be said to have any. Their output is still small and uneven in quality, so the Shou silk remains highly prized (and in fact, folk wisdom up and down the Sword Coast makes Sembian silk command higher prices and be bought more quickly and avidly if it’s passed off as Shou silk).
The Yarnmaster family rose to wealth and importance by perfecting faster, larger looms for the weaving of everyday bulk textiles. Silk was a small, high-end portion of the field they worked in, never their daily bread-and-butter—but over the years, they have been increasingly active in sourcing the cheapest raw materials for all weaving, manipulating market prices, and “playing” rulers, merchant groups, and rival trade cabals to keep supplies ample and prices low to feed their looms. So, yes, Yarnmasters were traveling all over the known Realms, trading (and manipulating) energetically. In recent years, the Yarnmasters are very much involved in the Sembian silk business.
There are at least seven Sembian merchant family cartels involved in silk-making within Sembia; the families are the Arrandamars (a large lusty, jovial, rip-roaring clan), the Brethrents (dignified, discreet, secretive, conservative; owning much city properties and avoiding publicity), the Calathnars (haughty, arrogant, and swift to violence and the use of poison), the Marynters (fashion-setters and seekers of the new and the innovative and fads that can be exploited), the Ondremmeths (a physically large and strong family who are hard bargainers, armed enforcers of contract details, miserly and governed by greed), the Pendrels (seafaring merchant fleet owners and old-guard “swap this for that” dockside manygoods traders), and the Yarnmasters.
I hope this is of help. Please feel free to ask followups.
Ed
So saith Ed. Creator of Sembia, and a man I happen to know has slept a time or two on silk sheets . . .
love,
THO |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 22:48:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
You've never seen Shou silk, it's not real.
I've made a perfectly legitimate point, but you're welcome to stick to your beliefs about this imaginary fabric's quality.
I haven't made any statements about its quality. Which I should hope would be obvious if you would read my posts.
I could say the same thing about you, blindly ignoring my point and just rejecting it out of hand.
My point, had you cared to really think about it, has NOTHING to do really with overt quality of the fabric itself. Instead, you come back to this point over and over while still rejecting what I said. Who, really, is not listening to whom? Hmm?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2012 : 22:49:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
You're ignoring the fact that if Shou silk doesn't have features that make it at least different and ideally arguably superior to Sembian silk, other nobles who find out that you are spending a fortune on it will not have any reason to be impressed by your conspicuous consumption.
I see where you’re coming from here, but I think you’re forgetting about preference and rivalry.
Preference: in many parts of the Realms, rich nobles often wish to be the first to purchase the "next big thing" and, by wearing it, displaying it or using it, make those things they personally favor popular and set the latest trends for others to follow.
If one of the ten richest nobles in Sembia, for example, decides that he wants all of his curtains or clothes for his staff made of silk from Westgate (hypothetical), you can bet your last gold-piece others will work hard to get that silk.
Those wishing to emulate or "be like" that noble will do the same. This drives demand, even if the actual item is inferior to other silk (such as that from Sembia).
Rivalry: if one noble outspends another, they're doing it to show they've the coin to spend. What they spend that coin on doesn't actually matter.
Ergo, the quality of an item (such as silk) doesn't actually have to be better before one person tries outspending another to acquire it.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
You're ignoring the fact that if Shou silk doesn't have features that make it at least different and ideally arguably superior to Sembian silk, other nobles who find out that you are spending a fortune on it will not have any reason to be impressed by your conspicuous consumption.
I think this is, at best, a guideline, not a universal truth. That is, the logic makes sense and most of the time it will hold, but nobles and merchants with coins to spend, as well as people with ambition, aren’t always logical. 
Interesting conversation. Hope it lasts.
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 00:05:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I see where you’re coming from here, but I think you’re forgetting about preference and rivalry.
Preference: in many parts of the Realms, rich nobles often wish to be the first to purchase the "next big thing" and, by wearing it, displaying it or using it, make those things they personally favor popular and set the latest trends for others to follow.
If one of the ten richest nobles in Sembia, for example, decides that he wants all of his curtains or clothes for his staff made of silk from Westgate (hypothetical), you can bet your last gold-piece others will work hard to get that silk.
Those wishing to emulate or "be like" that noble will do the same. This drives demand, even if the actual item is inferior to other silk (such as that from Sembia).
Rivalry: if one noble outspends another, they're doing it to show they've the coin to spend. What they spend that coin on doesn't actually matter.
Ergo, the quality of an item (such as silk) doesn't actually have to be better before one person tries outspending another to acquire it.
I acknowledged it didn't have to be, but for demand to be steady over a period of centuries, it was certainly the way to bet. One of the defining traits of the kind of fads caused by inexplicable preferences of leading trend-setters is their short duration.
Also, in order for a good to develop any kind of reputation, good or bad, it has to be distinguishable. That is, it's no good if nobody can tell where silk comes from except by magic or spying, because in that case only the tiniest fraction of potential rivals or peers will have any idea they are supposed to be impressed by where its from.
It's not impossible that someone will spend money to impress one particular peer or a very narrow group, that's obvious. But we aren't talking about such exceptions, we are talking about a widespread demand that persists for centuries. That's not a fad and that's not confined to just a few eccentrics.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I think this is, at best, a guideline, not a universal truth. That is, the logic makes sense and most of the time it will hold, but nobles and merchants with coins to spend, as well as people with ambition, aren’t always logical.
Interesting conversation. Hope it lasts.
Economists have found that discounting personal idiosyncracies still allows for reasonable prediction of long-term trends. People do things for all sorts of reasons, but the irrational actions tend to cancel each other out sufficiently to make it reasonable to look at behaviour as being driven by incentives.
We can't predict what will be popular in Sembian fashions next fall, but we can say with almost zero chance of error that a good that is in no way distinguishable from a far cheaper substitute good will not generate sufficient demand over a period of centuries to sustain a thriving cross-continental trade road. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 00:24:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I could say the same thing about you, blindly ignoring my point and just rejecting it out of hand.
My point, had you cared to really think about it, has NOTHING to do really with overt quality of the fabric itself. Instead, you come back to this point over and over while still rejecting what I said. Who, really, is not listening to whom? Hmm?
Your point was made more than ten posts after it had been evaluated and dismissed in a prior post. The demand for Shou silk has endured for far too long for it to be plausible for it to represent a fashion trend of the sort you describe. You'll note that in the early posts of this thread, the Tulip Mania is alluded to as an example of the sort of brief frenzy of demand for what appears afterward to be almost random items, out of all proportion to the cost of manufacturing. And the most important point is that such brief periods end.
It beggars belief to maintain that Shou silk has retained a status as a high-fashion good for centuries if it could not be distinguished from other silk. In order for reputations of any sort to form and endure, there has to be a recognisable identity for it to latch on to.
You cannot discuss branding and product identity if the product is neither branded nor identifiable.
The fact that magic exists to determine origin is not terribly significant. While it exists, the fact is that the average noble or person looking to dress like a noble meets a whole lot of people whose good opinion matters, but who do not habitually subject all others to a battery of magical tests, focusing on their clothing. In real world terms, it's comparable to scientific tests of various sorts and how often do you see business leaders or Hollywood icons judged in fashion magazines by what a forensic laboratory could tell about the fabric in their clothing?
You might impress a few very strange merchant-mages by wearing clothing that could be determined to be from far off by a battery of magical tests. You'll impress far more people by wearing clothing that is recognisably expensive, in the proper fashion and cut and of superior appearance and materials.
How it looks is more important than how it might eventually test, if it should be tested. This is a truism that is as true in fantasy as it is in real life.
Remember, in order for there to be significant demand, more people than just a few eccentrics have to buy Shou silk. And for that to happen, it has to be recognisable as Shou silk in some easier way than casting Legend Lore. It has to have, in modern terms, product identity.
Of course, in the real world, Chinese silk was considered superior to Venetian silk. And expert tailors, as well as fashion-conscious nobles and merchants, could by all accounts tell the difference. So the closest historical analogy we have supports what is, after all, merely the tautological affirmation of common sense. If no one can tell the difference between cheap goods and expensive goods, most people will buy the cheap goods. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 00:48:50
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LOL - I'm out. When people are so utterly convinced of their own infallibility, there's no point in contributing.
You're allowed to totally dismiss the whole concept of name/origin having a huge impact on pricing of luxury goods, but I say that doing so is incredibly narrow-visioned and more than a little arrogant. And the fact that you're still rigidly using real-world economics (incomplete though it is) to back your rejection, it's rather naive. Nobles, and the very wealthy, drive luxury markets (and black markets) in ways you haven't even brought up. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 01:07:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
LOL - I'm out. When people are so utterly convinced of their own infallibility, there's no point in contributing.
You're allowed to totally dismiss the whole concept of name/origin having a huge impact on pricing of luxury goods, but I say that doing so is incredibly narrow-visioned and more than a little arrogant. And the fact that you're still rigidly using real-world economics (incomplete though it is) to back your rejection, it's rather naive.
Economic theory isn't 'real world' or not. These are methods that can be applied to examples whether they are real or fictional.
It cannot possibly be controversial that in order to develop a product identity, by means of brand-naming or origin-branding, the product has to be identifiable. If it isn't, what you have is essentially a confidence game, not a business strategy, and the fact that you might be telling the truth is irrelevant. Since any competitor that simply lies about the origin of his wares will have an immense advantage over you, you'll quickly go out of busines anyway.
It's easy to dismiss conspicious spending as 'spending a lot of money on nothing'. It's also wrong. It matters greatly that the spending is, in fact, as conspicious as possible, as well as conforming to accepted social norms.
This means that it doesn't matter to most people how much you paid, it only matters how much it looks like you paid. It is true that there are exceptions, but there's a reason we call them exceptions. It's because they aren't the rule.
Whether in a fantasy world or a real one, the value of a particular luxury good is not particularly enhanced by paying a nameless person without fame or notoriority of any kind to carry it around for months before you use it.
Yes, you could double your spending on wines if you only bought them after someone had performed intimate rituals on the bottles, but that wouldn't impress most of your peers. They'd be far more impressed if you simply bought wine that was twice as expensive in the first place.
Rich merchants and nobles don't actually have infinite money. They have set budgets, even if these are greater than what you might be used to, and they are generally looking to use those budgets for discrete things, even if you might not recognise them. Every coin they spend on travelling expenses for people who buy identical goods far away is a coin they can't spend to match the luxuries of their peers at home.
While individuals can and do make errors in judgment and not realise this, the long-term trend will be that those who spent their money on things that don't impress will see their influence diminish. This means that it is not sustainable for a given good to enjoy continually high demand unless it has distinguishable characteristics from local substitute goods that can be the subject of preference among the target demographic.
Do you disagree with any of that? Because you'd be hard-pressed to find any kind of marketing professional or economist who'd be willing to accept the idea that you could have product brand identity without some identifiable characterics of the product.
Happily, as Ed Greenwood says, Shou silk is distinct from Sembian silk and the buyers can tell the difference, at least if they are among the cognoscenti. This explains why there is a demand for Shou silk despite the availability of Sembian silk.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Nobles, and the very wealthy, drive luxury markets (and black markets) in ways you haven't even brought up.
You don't think that by referencing the tulips I'm acknowledging that? Surely you can find plenty of learned commentary on all sides of the issue in works on the tulipmania.
None of which will support a theory that such fads lasts centuries. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 26 Apr 2012 01:08:25 |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 03:25:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
If you say so... 
http://blogofholding.com/?p=2187
http://disgustedbeyondbelief.blogspot.com/2009/02/economics-of-dungeons-and-dragons.html
http://www.koboldquarterly.com/k/front-page145.php
http://rpgdigest.com/2008/01/31/the-economics-of-the-dd-world/comment-page-1/
You might have noticed that I don't use D&D rules to play in the Realms, for the very reason that D&D rules are simplistic and hopelessly inadequate for modelling a place where people are people and trade drives the economy.
D&D being stupid doesn't make economic theory stupid. The Realms exist as a place described using both the English language and through the medium of a simplified game system. When the game system has imperfections that would make the English description impossible, the DM has to decide whether to throw away the canon descriptions or the rule artifact that doesn't work.
It is well known that most of the people who write D&D books are not historians, economists or even people with a good grasp of anything other than a particular game system. We should not expect them to turn in anything other than what they are paid for, i.e. rules for tactical superhero play in a fantasy setting.
If we are not playing tactical superhero games, we need to find rules to model the rest of the world somewhere else, or alternatively use our best judgment, like with any other worldbuilding.
I understand. No matter what I say, no matter the flaws I point out, you're -always- going to tell me I'm wrong. Even if I'm right, you will simply point out how you're using different rules entirely... and so I'm still wrong and you're right. The problem, though, is that the Realms we discuss here -do- use the general D&D rules. Editions change, but the wacky economics of D&D are still fairly wacky regardless of edition. It's interesting that you seem to think it's okay to argue strenuously for real-world operating rules when most players/DMs are going to be going off some form of D&D rules, though.
I am curious about one thing, though. In the face of a total theory-breaker like magic, especially the pervasive magic of the Realms, do you still think your real-life economic theory holds?
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 26 Apr 2012 03:28:06 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 03:34:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I understand. No matter what I say, no matter the flaws I point out, you're -always- going to tell me I'm wrong. Even if I'm right, you will simply point out how you're using different rules entirely... and so I'm still wrong and you're right. The problem, though, is that the Realms we discuss here -do- use the general D&D rules. Editions change, but the wacky economics of D&D are still fairly wacky regardless of edition. It's interesting that you seem to think it's okay to argue strenuously for real-world operating rules when most players/DMs are going to be going off some form of D&D rules, though.
The Realms exist as a fictional setting and as a home for campaigns run using all sorts of rules.
When discussing it in general, it is a mistake to focus on a particular rule system, especially if doing so would force us toward a different conclusion than what canon already says is the fact in the setting.
I've always wanted to model the Realms as Ed visualises them and as they are presented in good fiction set there.
I know that I can't do that while using D&D rules. That's not what they are designed to do.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
I am curious about one thing, though. In the face of a total theory-breaker like magic, especially the pervasive magic of the Realms, do you still think your real-life economic theory holds?
That people respond to incentives? Yes. I do.
The incentives are different, because the mechanisms of production and transport are not analogous to any period of history. But that does not mean that it's not possible to analyse them rationally, once we establish how they work. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 16:37:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
When discussing it in general, it is a mistake to focus on a particular rule system (...)
Why?
The Realms have been designed around four full generations of rules over the last 30 years. How the D&D rules work has had a literal and direct influence on setting.
That the rules change over time leads to contradictions, but that can't be helped.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
(...) especially if doing so would force us toward a different conclusion than what canon already says is the fact in the setting.
You're getting this backwards. In order to have a proper, detailed discussion about the Realms, it's important to note where the canon has been shaped by the rules, especially in the Realms earliest days as a product.
You may have noted a lot of scribes want to see the Realms divorced from the rules for 5th Edition, because we don't like how the rules can have a negative, always-changing-things effect on the setting.
If we get our wish for 5E, it will be the first time ever that the Realms aren't associated with the current D&D rules set.
The Forgotten Realms has never been divorced from the D&D rules since it's been a published product for sale on store shelves. Even before it was purchased by TSR, Ed was slowly modifying his Realms to fit the D&D books as they were being published. I appreciate the desire to elevate (if that's the right word) the setting above the rules--and I think there is a place for that kind of a discussion--especially since many novels (not all, mind) ignore the rules too.
But to dismiss the rules as irrelevant when having the deep sort of “how does the Realms work?” discussion that many scribes enjoy is, I think, a mistake. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 26 Apr 2012 16:39:26 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 16:50:03
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The rules don't say that humans need to eat a diet consisting of anything other than travelling rations to remain healthy. I don't interpret this as meaning that nutritional requirements for humans are different in the Forgotten Realms, I interpret it as being a function of the rules being a simplified system designed for ease of play, not accurate modelling.
If a statement by Ed Greenwood says that something is the case in the Realms, I believe him. If applying the rules as written would lead to another conclusion, I conclude that the rules-as-written do not represent actual reality in the setting. They're just meant to allow a particular style of play and no one designed them to be perfect models.
D&D books, if taken literally, would indicate that the world of any setting was so strange that it resembled the real world not at all. I've never taken them this literally and instead gone by the feel of the world provided by actual descriptions of it.
Any other method leads to parody like the excellent Order of the Stick. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 17:17:54
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Icelander, everyone recognizes that the rules are used as a system for ease of play. You can't fully model reality with any set of game rules. At best the rules are a lense through which we view the Realms.
However, the rules don't allow for "a particular style of play". GURPS rules don't affect the Realms. D&D rules do.
Those rules are set in stone once written or until contradicted by another rules source. It goes like this: What Ed says --> What a sourcebook (including any rules in it) says --> What newer sourcebooks say.
What Ed Greenwood says is true for the Realms unless a published product overwrites or contradicts what he says. If a published product says Electrum Pieces aren't used as currency anymore, that's canon. If the latest Player's Handbook says dwarves can be wizards when page after page of prior lore (including anything written by Ed) says otherwise, that lore no longer applies. If a published product re-writes how the spell Teleport works, all the canon information in Volo's Guides about wizards utilizing the spell or defending against it, as well its use in novels, etc. are called into question.
I think we're all capable of choosing which we think is better, but if you're having a canon discussion (which you seem to be), you can't ignore the rules, because the D&D rules have informed Realms design decisions for a long, long time.
Lastly, please keep in mind I'm not trying to tell you how to think about the Realms. I like your style, even if I don't always agree with it.
Just please stop requiring the rest of us to think like you do. When you "dismiss" (your words) someone else's opinion as wrong, you give off the vibe that says "I, Icelander, have established how the Realms should be viewed. If you don't think like me or if you don't view the Realms as I do, whatever you say is wrong".
It would be nicer if you wrote "here's where I disagree" instead of "your opinion was dismissed and here's why I'm right".
[EDIT: Haha! Weapon shrinkage. I haven't read that one in a while.] |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 26 Apr 2012 17:24:28 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 18:28:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
However, the rules don't allow for "a particular style of play". GURPS rules don't affect the Realms. D&D rules do.
D&D is a tactical superhero game in the fantasy genre. That's a particular style of play. As it happens, it is not the style of the majority of stories set in the Realms, but that's to do with the unfortunate fact that D&D is a very poor fit for Ed's world.
D&D rules apply to D&D games set in the Realms. GURPS rules apply to GURPS games set in the Realms. Pathfinder rules apply to Pathfinder games set in the Realms.
Remember, the people who consume the Realms through the medium of a pen-and-paper roleplaying game are a minority of Realms-fans. Those using the most recent version of D&D, adopting every new rule as it comes out and ignoring anything not current, are a minority of a minority.
The Realms aren't defined by D&D rules any more than the world of Marvel comics is defined by whatever RPG rules the company has currenly licensed and/or is publishing.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Those rules are set in stone once written or until contradicted by another rules source. It goes like this: What Ed says --> What a sourcebook (including any rules in it) says --> What newer sourcebooks say.
What Ed Greenwood says is true for the Realms unless a published product overwrites or contradicts what he says. If a published product says Electrum Pieces aren't used as currency anymore, that's canon. If the latest Player's Handbook says dwarves can be wizards when page after page of prior lore (including anything written by Ed) says otherwise, that lore no longer applies. If a published product re-writes how the spell Teleport works, all the canon information in Volo's Guides about wizards utilizing the spell or defending against it, as well its use in novels, etc. are called into question.
By that definition of canon, the Realms is a profoundly stupid setting and I would not play in it unless you paid me a hefty fee. I would probably devote my life to destroying all fiction written there too, as a service to humanity and art.
Fortunately, no author I've read, sourcebook or novel, appears to actually adhere to this view. The rules of D&D are not seen as natural laws in the world of the setting by the people who write about the setting. Regardless of what D&D rules say, characters in novels and sourcebooks have the full range of human frailties, motivations and complexity, at least as far as the author's skill extends. They aren't simply the sum of their D&D stats and the challenges they overcome aren't either.
Stats that appear in game books aren't written by experts on the lore material they cover. They are often just thrown in there by the equivalent of an intern. Try asking authors about who statted their characters in an official supplement and what they think of the accuracy of these stats.
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Just please stop requiring the rest of us to think like you do. When you "dismiss" (your words) someone else's opinion as wrong, you give off the vibe that says "I, Icelander, have established how the Realms should be viewed. If you don't think like me or if you don't view the Realms as I do, whatever you say is wrong".
It would be nicer if you wrote "here's where I disagree" instead of "your opinion was dismissed and here's why I'm right".
As a working assumption, I've been going by the notion that people generally realise that statements made by a certain individual represent the opinion of that individual.
When discussing history or literature, I don't preface every sentence by 'in my opinion'. I state my opinion and trust listeners to realise that by doing so, I implicitly endorse that opinion. Why should it be different when discussing fictional history? |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 18:44:01
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I think this has gone far enough off base...
Hopefully we can get past the debate of rules and back to Trade eh? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 19:00:15
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I thought I made my point earlier, but I guess I have to repeat myself.
People with large amounts of disposable income will buy stuff that is over-priced, just so they have 'bragging rights'. You will pay more for an actual Xerox machine, or a SONY product, or Apple,or some insanely priced 'designer' article of clothing, etc... just so you can say you did. Human beings are very stupid when it comes to this sort of thing (I wonder if any other races participate in this brand of insanity?).
Case in point: I had a customer that was worth 80 million (or rather, her whole family was - they owned a tech company). She bragged to me that she purchased a knock-off Gucci bag online for about $75, when all her friends bought real ones for $1500. She claimed none of them could tell the difference. Either way, she was one of the few female customers I had that I respected (most of the others couldn't spend their husband's money fast enough).
Another time (YEARS ago) I was at a family function, and my wife's cousin was staring at my 'Champion sweatshirt'. After a few minutes she said, "Aha! I knew it was a fake! I can tell by the stitching under the armpit!" She then showed me the difference in the stitching under her armpit. I looked at her and asked, "how much did you pay for yours? She told me $50. I told her I got mine from some guy on a street corner, 3-for-$20, and that "all that proves is that I am smarter then you". I also asked her if she spent all her time staring at people's armpits. She proudly declared that she did.
People are idiots.
YES, some nobles WILL try to fool others by buying Sembian 'knock-offs', but the majority of them will be afraid of being discovered, and pay the exorbitant prices for the 'genuine article', because thats just how people are (and there is ALWAYS a way of telling the difference). You will also find (in both fantasy settings and RW) that there will be a number of con-artists who will charge the higher prices for the 'fake stuff', because they know their customer (mark) won't know the difference, and will be long-gone before the truth is discovered. Everything from clothing, to wine, to pieces of art get treated this way. Greed & Avarice are a scammer's best friends.
@Icelander - you are trying to apply logic to an illogical human social behavior... its not going to work. People who buy luxuries aren't trying to save money, they are trying to spend it conspicuously. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Apr 2012 19:01:56 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2012 : 19:36:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
D&D is a tactical superhero game in the fantasy genre. That's a particular style of play. As it happens, it is not the style of the majority of stories set in the Realms, but that's to do with the unfortunate fact that D&D is a very poor fit for Ed's world.
D&D is a fantasy roleplaying game, not a tactical superhero game.
Realms stories are fantasy stories, filled with heroic characters.
The very notion that D&D is a “poor fit” for the Realms is simply wrong. D&D has been the rules set for the Realms since the start.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
D&D rules apply to D&D games set in the Realms. GURPS rules apply to GURPS games set in the Realms. Pathfinder rules apply to Pathfinder games set in the Realms.
Only D&D rules can influence the canon of the Realms.
Do you see the difference now?
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Remember, the people who consume the Realms through the medium of a pen-and-paper roleplaying game are a minority of Realms-fans.
They’re not, but even if they were, what’s your point?
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The Realms aren't defined by D&D rules any more than the world of Marvel comics is defined by whatever RPG rules the company has currently licensed and/or is publishing.
If we’re talking the canon Realms, your statement is factually wrong.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
By that definition of canon, the Realms is a profoundly stupid setting and I would not play in it unless you paid me a hefty fee. I would probably devote my life to destroying all fiction written there too, as a service to humanity and art.
You’d be a busy man. There are thousands and thousands of pages in print that have been written under that framework.
Like it or not, that’s how it works. For the record: I don’t always like it either.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Fortunately, no author I've read, sourcebook or novel, appears to actually adhere to this view.
You’ve never read a Forgotten Realms sourcebook then? I find that odd.
Anyway, some novels follow the game rules and some don’t, depending on the author and the demands of his or her editor.
Richard Baker was pretty good at limiting his characters to what the game rules allowed them to do.
Many novels featured infravision, for example, while others have removed it after the game switched from 2nd Edition AD&D to 3rd Edition D&D. Authors have talked about how they grappled with rules changes when writing novels over time.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The rules of D&D are not seen as natural laws in the world of the setting by the people who write about the setting. Regardless of what D&D rules say, characters in novels and sourcebooks have the full range of human frailties, motivations and complexity, at least as far as the author's skill extends. They aren't simply the sum of their D&D stats and the challenges they overcome aren't either.
. The D&D rules are sometimes the natural laws of the setting—traveling in the planes, for example.
However, nobody said NPCs and novel characters lack human frailties, motivations and complexity. No set of D&D rules has ever made this the case, by the way.
Look, nobody is saying the D&D rules are the be-all and end-all, just as nobody is saying novel authors are not permitted to imagine fantastic stories that don't necessarily conform to the game rules.
If you think I'm claiming either of those things, you’re mistaken.
The point is this: the D&D rules have a real, measurable influence on the Forgotten Realms as a setting in terms of how information about the setting is presented in sourcebooks and (some) novels.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Stats that appear in game books aren't written by experts on the lore material they cover. They are often just thrown in there by the equivalent of an intern.
This is a sweeping generalization with no basis in truth.
The design team that created the 3rd Edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, for example, was extremely well-versed in lore and worked damn hard to integrate the setting and the rules.
I wouldn’t describe someone like Eric Boyd or Steven Schend as ignorant of the Realms, but you’ll find a large number of sourcebooks over two editions of the rules filled with game stats they wrote.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Try asking authors about who stated their characters in an official supplement and what they think of the accuracy of these stats.
Go ahead. I don’t recall a specific author ever complaining. In fact, I’ve seen several of them do the stats themselves.
Sean Reynolds did a bang-up job on Drizzt’s stats. Rich Baker’s work in (the print version of) Dragon Magazine depicting Sembian novel NPCs was spot on, save for one wizard I thought was too high in level.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
As a working assumption, I've been going by the notion that people generally realise that statements made by a certain individual represent the opinion of that individual.
The issue isn’t whether you recognize people are sharing their opinions; it’s that you dismiss other’s opinions as either wrong or secondary to yours.
This is my last post on the subject. I’m done with this scroll. My apologies to the OP and the Mods for the off-topic banter.
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2012 : 19:11:30
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Just re-reading Ed's Athalantar Campaign article in Dragon #228 (doing some research on Andlath), and I came across this-
quote:
From Pg.35 of Dragon #228
South of Calimshan, the Tashalar (then “Tashtan” or the Cities of the Seabreeze) produced purple-and-emerald woven fabrics for trade that outshone even the fine silks of Calimshan.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2012 : 06:19:01
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| Maybe its not just about silks, maybe those entrepreneurs are actually mages who want a piece of Kara-Turan? magic? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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PaulBestwick
Seeker
United Kingdom
83 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2012 : 13:27:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Just re-reading Ed's Athalantar Campaign article in Dragon #228 (doing some research on Andlath), and I came across this-
quote:
From Pg.35 of Dragon #228
South of Calimshan, the Tashalar (then “Tashtan” or the Cities of the Seabreeze) produced purple-and-emerald woven fabrics for trade that outshone even the fine silks of Calimshan.
Markus you got the point I thought of, what if the different silk were actually varied in the colours that will take to them, due to a difference in the diet that the silk worms consume. Therefore most nobles would be able to see at a glance where the silk had come from as the colours would not be the local ones. It might be that the dyes are secret just like Roman Imperial Purple. |
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Trade with Kara-Tur...Why?
