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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Apr 2012 : 17:29:55
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Something I was just thinking about in another thread brought this to mind. Technically, the spell doesn't designate what "type" of creature is created. The fact that its a being made of ice and snow which appears through illusion to be a duplicate of the person, makes me think a simulacrum is most like a construct. Constructs don't breathe. However, there's also the idea that its a creature of the same creature type as the person it was made from, because the spell doesn't designate that it gets any construct special resistances, etc... but it could also be argued that you aren't creating actual life through this spell either.
Just wondering, which side of the fence would you throw the argument? It actually brings about some interesting religious dilemmas as well (for instance, if you believe it to be a living being, where did the spark of life come from... did you create it or draw it into the simulacrum from your own soul?). They can't be healed through regular means, but repair construct doesn't work either. Maybe they're living constructs, but those can be raised/resurrected if killed.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7972 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2012 : 19:57:08
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I'm not sure about the 3E/3.5E version, but 2E simulacra were basically just lifeless mannequins (made from flesh and snow and illusion and whatever). A reincarnation spell (cast for this purpose) could install a simulacrum with a random unintelligent vital force, I suppose it was up to the DM whether this made the simulacrum a breathing vegetable/decoy or an actual individual of sorts. A limited wish spell (cast for this purpose) could then install a portion of the original's knowledge and personality; a level 14 wizard could simulate up to a level 7 version of himself.
There was also no requirement for the material component (flesh and blood) nor the simulated image to be the caster's. He could (in theory) just as easily make a simulacrum of a level 20 barbarian or that ancient red dragon the party just killed. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2012 : 20:42:51
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| So how came about the Simulacrum created by Malark in Unholy? It seems that it was some sort of uber-advanced version who was able to move, think, act, and fool everyone that came across it into believing they spoke with the real Malark. |
"Firepower - if it's not working, you're not using enough." ~ Military Proverb
"If at first you do succeed, you must've rolled a natural 20!" |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7972 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2012 : 21:55:03
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Uh, Malark just cast simulacrum, then if his story was governed by 2E rules he subsequently cast reincarnation and limited wish? Even if the simulacrum only had 20-50% of Malark's personality and knowledge it would still fool many people - not uber-advanced, just part of the magic.
Moreover, Malark might have had about a century to refine his deception and might have augmented the illusions all sorts of ways. And FR novels hardly conform to any edition of the game rules anyhow. And, as it turns out, the simulacrum didn't actually fool everyone anyhow. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2012 : 22:53:36
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In AD&D (and 2nd Edition) Dalor Darden often used Simulacrum to enhance his ability to be in more than one place...as well as even summoning all of his decoys into one place to work in concert to really lay down some hurt on his enemies.
In our game the Simulacrum was a living creature if certain spells were cast...it was vital that they be so to truly fool anyone. Dalor had the following constant Simulacrum Servants:
Seneschal that saw to his tower.
Spy that moved where instructed to find out information.
Body Double that went with Dalor under various guises until needed as a double. This one had a Hat of Disguise.
Hand/Enforcer that Dalor would send to various contacts to demand service of them; such as a goblin chief, street thug, and etc.
Sinister Seven...a group of seven Simulacrum that were used to assault individuals and groups.
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The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7972 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2012 : 01:09:32
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There are a few modules which feature high-level wizards who use many simulacra. One had plans to infiltrate a temple by systematically replacing the entire clergy with simulacra duplicates. Another simulated exotic people and creatures to fill his "living museum", private army, and seraglio. One evil bastard equipped his simulacra with command words for his golems, items, and wards, then strategically deployed them as suicide minions, traps, obstacles, and decoys to frustrate trespassing PCs (even the lifeless mannequin simulacra were put to use, staged in sitting/sleeping poses in trapped rooms).
One of my players hit upon the plan of producing portrait/statue simulacra for idle nobility; lifelike, ageless, perfect "snapshots". She's not yet had any clients willing to submit one pound of flesh as a material component, even when she offers to loan a ring of regeneration and (economically) hire healers. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 15:00:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
There are a few modules which feature high-level wizards who use many simulacra. One had plans to infiltrate a temple by systematically replacing the entire clergy with simulacra duplicates. Another simulated exotic people and creatures to fill his "living museum", private army, and seraglio. One evil bastard equipped his simulacra with command words for his golems, items, and wards, then strategically deployed them as suicide minions, traps, obstacles, and decoys to frustrate trespassing PCs (even the lifeless mannequin simulacra were put to use, staged in sitting/sleeping poses in trapped rooms).
One of my players hit upon the plan of producing portrait/statue simulacra for idle nobility; lifelike, ageless, perfect "snapshots". She's not yet had any clients willing to submit one pound of flesh as a material component, even when she offers to loan a ring of regeneration and (economically) hire healers.
Yeah, I don't see simulacrums being as common as they were in 2nd edition with the newer XP requirements (which is a good thing). However, I can see powerful red wizards who can create simulacrums possibly having several just to increase their own power when using their circle magic ability (just like they did in previous editions for me). So far though, I'm hearing most of you would agree that they're constructs which don't need to breathe. Therefore, theoretically, one could carry around 2 or 3 of them in a portable hole (along with say some golems as well) and haul them out when you need them. If you're a powerful mage, perhaps they could memorize some lower level junk spells that you don't want to keep memorized. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 19:15:40
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I would say they were constructs, but designed to mimic all of a person's normal functions (including relieving itself, eating, sleeping, breathing, etc), but not actually needing to do so.
Reincarnate is one way to force a self-aware sentience into something; Awaken would be another. A third method would be similar to how wizards imbue certain magical items with awareness, which probably involves summoning something (I'm picturing some very low-level outsiders, like imps and what-not). Relics (including ancestral swords) also eventually gain their own sentience, but thats a matter of an existing sentience - someone who has handled the item - taking-up residence in the item after death.
Ergo, you can either summon something to provide the sentience, or it could happen 'accidentally' over time (something decides it's found a new 'home'). I think this second version is what happened with the permanent illusion that became sentient in Pool of Twilight. I think this is also what happens to those dead folk buried in a Pet Cemetery.
Otherwwise, the simulcra would be as sentient as a zombie or golem - it just takes orders, and goes about them in the simplest and most-direct means. If a simulcra was nearly the same as the caster, then that would be an avatar, and the caster would have a god-like power, which shouldn't be.
Elminster, on the other hand, probably had dozens of these things, and probably even had one that was in the form of his female self (and there's a really bad joke in there, but I'll let someone else take the low road... for a change). He was a Chosen, and unique in other ways, so it was probably easier for him to provide the sentience (he may have even 'split' his own mind).
Wasn't Alias a type of Simulcra? And it took the help of a deity to provide the power to make them self-aware. They each had a different personality, which is probably due to the different lifeforces (spirits?) animating them.
@Dalor Darden - did you happen to read a lot of old Superman comics? You seem to have used Simulcra in much the same way Supes used his Superman robots.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Apr 2012 19:17:45 |
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Veritas
Learned Scribe
209 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 01:46:27
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| Could deities replicate themselves with Simulacrum? Why or why note? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 04:39:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Wasn't Alias a type of Simulcra? And it took the help of a deity to provide the power to make them self-aware. They each had a different personality, which is probably due to the different lifeforces (spirits?) animating them.
Alias and her sisters were a unique type of simulacra. And while they each had a different personality, it's not clear how they developed differently -- they all shared a bit of Dragonbait's soul, but only Alias got part of his spirit. The rest didn't have spirits and remained inert until their disappearance and scattering. What caused that was never really explored... |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 04:47:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Dalor Darden - did you happen to read a lot of old Superman comics? You seem to have used Simulcra in much the same way Supes used his Superman robots.
I'm actually playing DC Heroes RIGHT NOW... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 21:13:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Elminster, on the other hand, probably had dozens of these things, and probably even had one that was in the form of his female self (and there's a really bad joke in there, but I'll let someone else take the low road... for a change).
LOL, that just made me laugh. Then I thought "Simulacrum are made of ice and snow".... and then I remembered what a cold swimming pool does to a man. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Does a 3rd/3.5e edition simulacrum breathe?
