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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 17:41:24
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When it comes to speculation about the Forgotten Realms under the D&D Next/5E banner, I hope WotC chooses to do more than freeze the timeline and attempt to minimize the footprint of the Spellplague.
Instead, I hope they are willing to advance the timeline through the novels and that they focus on the Spellplague, because I think there’s more to the Spellplague story to tell.
For example, in the most recent Elminster trilogy, Elminster mentions the “Blue Fire that is not of Mystra.”
If this is true, what is the Blue Fire, exactly? What is its source? Where does it come from?
Is it the mindless, leftover stuff of creation? The sort of thing only a being like Ao could control? The sort of thing Cyric would hope to unleash in order to murder the world?
Or is it a result of friction between worlds and the planes? And why does it so ravenously consume and ride magic?
Another example is the presence of Akanul, Tymanther, Returned Abeir, etc. in the Realms.
Who’s to say these places might not one day slingshot back to their home world? Or that the denizens of these lands might seek to force their return home (especially the dragons of Returned Abeir)?
That Mystra’s resurgence in the Realms might offset the effects of the Spellplague is quite possible, in my opinion. If that happens, who’s to say the Toril might not right itself and be rid of (to some degree) those parts of it that aren’t native to it?
I view the Spellplague information in the FRCS as an overview; not as definitive or absolute.
There’s more story to tell.
Yes, minimize the Spellplague. But let the story play out to its conclusion too.
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 26 Mar 2012 05:39:32
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 17:58:19
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Flames consume mindlessly, cleanse and purify, have a compelling beauty entirely their own. They do not strictly require any special reason to exist, they might spontaneously manifest whenever conditions are right, they might be ignited by any catalyst, they continue to burn so long as fuel is within reach. I wonder how long the blue flame can smolder unnoticed before flaring up again?
We don't generally attribute motivations to lightning, electricity can impersonally blast and zorch and melt and cook and crater anything at random which happens to be in range. It's just a property of our universe, we are small and can barely comprehend the awesome powers commanded by the machinery of nature.
[Edit]
Criticisms about the nature of the Spellplague aside, one thing about it I find mildly annoying is the name itself. "Spell-Plague", c'mon, for real bro? It's magical but hardly requires spells of any particular kind. It wounds and maims and destroys but it's hardly an infectious plague. Even something unoriginal like Dweomerstorm or Faerie Fury would sound better to me, although that's just a matter of preference. I'm even a little surprised that everybody still reveres noble Mystra's sacrifice after the fact, instead of hatefully spitting on the ground while cursing the Mystrawrath or Sharscorch. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 22 Mar 2012 18:10:53 |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 18:39:20
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One of the ways WotC can expand on the Spellplague is to say that Abeir wasn’t the only world to overlap Toril. Other worlds did too, just in a far less dramatic way.
This will sound paradoxical, but I think expanding the Spellplague in this way helps to minimize its presence.
It also opens up Realms products to visions of what Ed had in mind when he came up with the idea that the Realms were once linked to many worlds. You can’t tell me there isn’t a pile of papers somewhere in Ed’s basement theorizing on some of the worlds that influenced the Realms in its past (or you can, I just won’t believe you).
So, tell us about those worlds! Give us small vignettes about small places: a mountain in the middle of nowhere, a dungeon spewing forth never before seen beasts, a town on a valley that was not there a season before…
Or maybe don’t think of it as “expanding to minimalize” but “naturalizing to minimize” or “normalizing to minimalize”.
In the Realms, names for things aren’t universal. Even the gods are known by different names amongst the various races of the Realms, as well in different parts of the Realms.
Likewise with the Spellplague, normalize it by giving it several names: Dweomerstorm, Faerie Fury, Mystrawrath or Sharscorch (thanks Ayrik ).
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Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 19:18:06
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Actually, I already asked Ed about the Weave without a sentient consciousness.
*** Spoiler Alert ***
I also managed to finally finish Elminster Must Die. Five days without phone, TV, or Internet will do that to a person. It left me curious, but more in the way people slowing down to look at a fatal car-wreck are curious. Mirt's return was as cheesy as Artemis absorbing a Shade. There is a MUCH easier way to keep all those old characters in play - why bother with all this absurdity, and admit the whole thing was a HUGE mistake?
Are the egos of just two people more important then the entire community? *Meh*
Once again, I have no interest in anything post-Spellplague, beyond maybe the first couple of years (up until about 1400 DR). I am willing to buy anything from earlier eras, however (if I find it either interesting or useful... or both... my expectations don't run that high, these days.) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Mar 2012 19:20:28 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 19:32:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There is a MUCH easier way to keep all those old characters in play - why bother with all this absurdity,
*Sigh*
Every time I hear about another character from the old Realms appearing in a new Realms product through some contrived means, it strikes me as so sad. I understand that authors want to write about characters they've already developed affection for and whose stories they did not view as finished. And I understand that audiences may respond positively to characters that they already know.
It's just that the more people who suddenly survive an extra century and even manage to retain recognisable characteristics or carry on plotlines from the past, the sillier it gets. Oh, sure, there are a few fantastic characters who would have survived, granted, but a lot of these characters were just people who happened to be featured in stories of the Realms. They were never meant to be immortals, for one thing, because when every important character seems to live for centuries, it makes them less relatable and human.
The pace of timeline advancement between Mirt's first apperance and the date of the Realms at the end of 3e had already made him more than a century old before getting his own novel. A Mirt born two hundred years ago or more isn't the very human Mirt that we know and love, it's a whole new character and if he still seems the same, it's going to ring false. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1267 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 20:17:45
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| As irritating as the two people mentioned in this threads survival to 100 years in the future are the ones that were needlessly and uselessly killed off by the Spellplague. Two of Bob's characters in particular got no send off or hurrah. Just needlessly passed because of the "Spellplague" after 20 or so novels. The whole thing left me with such a bad taste in my mouth. I've stopped buying the Drizzt novels after Gauntlgrym. I just don't care anymore. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 21:39:01
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@Icelander: I feel you there.
On the one hand, it seems silly and contrived when yet another human novel protagonist is seen to have survived into the future (Jack Ravenwild is the latest I read about to jump ahead into the future). It’s got a comic book sort of “He’s dead! But look, now he’s not dead!” vibe to it and I see where some of my fellow scribes are coming from.
But then I realize people (including Seravin, right in this scroll) have been complaining for (what, three or four years now?) about how all the interesting NPCs were killed off because of the Spellplague. Lots of angst about that.
Which is why, despite the contrived-feeling vibe I talked about, I like that Ed is patiently at work patching things up with his Blueflame Ghosts (as Markus noted above)—which are just one solution to the problem, though of course Markus didn’t exactly paint them as a solution .
Don’t everyone go rushing off now to thank Ed for his efforts to fix things…
(Or take a moment to laugh at the sillyness of Realms fans complaining bitterly over losing some of their favorite NPCs, then complaining—albeit not so bitterly—that some of their favorite NPCs are inexplicably surviving into the future. I’m sorry, that’s just damn funny.)
But I digress.
When I sit back and look at the bigger picture, I realize there are all kinds of descriptions of NPCs who’ve taken advantage of magic (much of that magic unique to the Realms; i.e. more than just potions of longevity) and circumstance—or been the victim of such—to live unnaturally long lives.
The Volo’s Guides are riddled with examples. Dunman Kiriag comes immediately to mind.
Sometimes I just have to remind myself that I shouldn’t let my meta-knowledge (or my meta-assumptions) about Wizards of the Coast’s and its authors and editors motives get in the way of my enjoyment of the setting.
Otherwise it’s easy overlook the fact that Blueflame Ghosts are entirely consistent with the Realms as it has been presented down the years. That they are linked to some Realmslore we’ve all been curious about just makes them that much better.
Better to just sit back and enjoy it, you know? Try not to take it so god damned seriously. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 22 Mar 2012 21:45:42 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 21:44:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
(Or take a moment to laugh at the sillyness of Realms fans complaining bitterly over losing some of their favorite NPCs, then complaining—albeit not so bitterly—that some of their favorite NPCs are inexplicably surviving into the future. I’m sorry, that’s just damn funny.)
People, real or fictional, are who they are because of their experiences. After a century, the character isn't the character I liked. Either he's dead, he's changed so much he's not the same or he's stayed the same, in which case any artistic appreciation I could have had for him is gone.
All the characters I liked, more or less, were gone the moment the time-jump was decided. Contriving to bring them back is just a cheesy way to use the same name, not really a way to use what was good about the character. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 21:53:32
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But Icelander, that’s such a broad brush you’re painting with!
Mirt is quite the same because he was (spoiler here) in stasis.
I mean, you know magic exists in the Realms, right? (Not being facetious there.)
Alusair (though a ghost) appears to be very much the Alusair of old.
I grant you it is true that characters can change over time—and really they should! Wouldn't be believable otherwise.
But if the characters experiences are already interesting to you, how does it automatically follow that you wouldn’t be interested in reading about their experiences over the century gap, just because it’s presented in a past tense form?
If I’m to take you seriously, I should naturally conclude that if a character changes significantly for any reason, you automatically will not like that character because they’re no longer the same.
That just seems so boring. It’s like refusing to eat anything that's not cardboard. Or better, eating only one kind of food, forever. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 22 Mar 2012 22:01:44 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 22:05:14
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If a character changes significantly, it's no longer the same character. I'm not saying that I'll automatically dislike the new character, but if I do like him, it will be on his own merits.
A significant change that results from an external marketing reason rather than the internal logic of the story is one that in my experience rarely produces changes I like.
And 'stasis'? Really? Why did such a lot of people who were known to Realms-readers suddenly fall victim to magical stasis that lasted precisely as long as the time jump and not disturbed by the Spellplague?
Contrived. Silly. Cheesy. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2012 : 22:31:13
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Icelander, I really think you're assuming too much.
I don't want to argue subjectivity here--especially for first impressions; rather that I recognize you're in to details, but I don't think you've bothered to gather them all up first. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 02:07:07
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Icelander, perhaps the stasis does strike you as contrived and cheesy - - but Ed did "set it up" in print BEFORE the Spellplague, and I think in the FRCG, too, if it didn't get edited out. I seem to recall Ed describing six or seven ways characters could be brought forward a century or so, before 4e was sprung on us.
I suspect he and R.A. Salvatore were figuring out ways to salvage characters once they knew about the time-jump. And remember, Ed told us all back in 1986 that the Realms WAS people (characters), not geography or history.
BB |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 02:20:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
Icelander, perhaps the stasis does strike you as contrived and cheesy - - but Ed did "set it up" in print BEFORE the Spellplague, and I think in the FRCG, too, if it didn't get edited out. I seem to recall Ed describing six or seven ways characters could be brought forward a century or so, before 4e was sprung on us.
I suspect he and R.A. Salvatore were figuring out ways to salvage characters once they knew about the time-jump. And remember, Ed told us all back in 1986 that the Realms WAS people (characters), not geography or history.
BB
My problem isn't that I find it unacceptable that there exist magical ways of entering a time stasis in the Realms.
The problem is that it is obviously not a common part of human lifespans. It's an exceptional event, extremely rare.
In real world terms, people do get shot in the head and live. They'll survive multiple gunshot wounds. Absolutely. People will survive all sorts of wounds, sometimes even without prompt medical care. But if you publish a sequel to The Wild Bunch which has all the characters surviving the gunfight at the end, through a series of miraculous medical accidents, audiences would rightfully feel cheated and decry it as contrived.
I'm aware that the Realms is people. This is why I think it was a mistake to jump so far into the future that it didn't have these people any more.
Any attempts to bring a few of the better known people along into this future are, to me, both cheesy and pointless. The people who made up the Realms numbered in the thousands. Every single character mentioned by Ed in Dragon articles, Volo's guides, his wordy answers here, etc. made up the tapestry.
Magical stasis, bluefire ghosts, shade-infusions and all the other contrived ways to bring a sales-friendly character along aren't going to explain thousands of normal people that make up the Realms still being there and even if someone were so hardened to try, they wouldn't be ordinary people any more.
A few exotic individuals with magical natures are to be expected in fantasy. But they aren't exotic any more if they start to become the baseline. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 04:51:40
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I'm genuinely torn on this one. On the one hand, I have a tremendous amount of respect for Icelander's 'gritty' and 'realistic' approach to the Realms, gaming, and most things in general. I find applying realistic rules to fantasy settings goes a long way toward transforming fantasy stories, settings, and campaigns from the realm of mere fairy tales to stories capable of full heft, pathos, and deep emotional appeal. On the other hand, I deeply respect Ed's attempts (and those defending them) to save something meaningful of the core spirit of the OGB (and pre-OGB) Realms by bringing certain beloved characters forward into time and using them to build a brighter, post-spellplague Realms (a mission in which I will support Ed 100%).
The question of whether using rare magical means (and complex plot hooks) to save such characters and whether taking them out of the context of the world in which they arose diminishes them in a way that defeats the purpose of saving them is a fair one. I mean, I love the Old Wolf, but is he the same Old Wolf without Durnan? Asper? Laeral? Even Khelben? You might ask if you were to save Torm, but not Rathan, have you done Torm justice? I honestly don't know. Maybe Mirt has a role to play, one that is every bit as meaningful as the one he played as a Lord of old. Certainly Elminster has evolved over centuries to become the man he was in 1373, I guess anything can happen.
I've had this issue come up for me in my 'grand campaign', the one over the years of gaming that came together best, ran the longest, told the best tale, came to define what gaming was about for me. I have a friend, my best friend, who I have gamed with since college. His character (and the relationship between him and my core NPC, a certain Kris the Grey) was the center piece of that campaign. His character evolved over the first 5 years we played that game from his start as a 28 year old, overweight, balding huckster (I run play yourself games if you recall, Lol) mucking out the stables at the Yawning Portal Inn to secure a roof over his head, to a Knight in Silver, establishing a frontier castle and safeguarding a community on banks of the River Surbrin in service to Lady Alustriel and Luruar. He made pages and pages of friends and enemies, married, fathered a child, and adopted two Calishite street orphans to boot. His character was the central figure in a genuine drama.
Then, owing to life's little vagaries getting in the way of our friendship, we slowed down, then stopped playing for a bit. A bit lead to a while, and a while to a couple of years. My friend had always been physically disabled to some degree owing to a progressive degenerative disease, but by the time life had sorted itself out and we were boon companions again, he was fully disabled and confined to a bed 24/7. We'd gone from mid twenties, early thirties playing, then mid thirties/early forties catching back up. There would be no restarting the game right where we left off, all of the others players, his 'supporting cast' were gone, and we couldn't very well start another play yourself game from the beginning, there would be no more portals to worlds of high fantasy to go through for my friend.
So, I did a version of what Wizard's ended up doing (before they even did it). I jumped my timeline forward. I had always held to the 'grand game rules' conceit that 'time stood still for no man', and that if PCs didn't play it meant they were placed into stasis or shunted back to Earth. My buddies last adventure had been an attempt to find his old friend, Kris the Grey, who had himself gone missing during a massive battle against the phaerimm in the year 1372. I simply jumped him from that year to a time several years in the future (roughly corresponding to the time gap in real life).
We tried that once, twice, three times, with a slightly different cast each time, with a slightly different plot hook each time. On the most complex and realistic of those attempts (a concept that, like Icelander, I am committed to) his character returned home to his township to find it diminished, his fortress in ruins, and (in the dungeons below) the remains of his retainers, his wife, and his family, who had died fighting the good fight to the last against his many enemies (that had, quite realistically, descended upon them once they realized he had gone missing). Instead of swearing vengeance, trying desperately to raise them, or storming off seeking justice, his character walked outside into the sun, sat down, and gave up. In the end, he was a creature of the time he'd lived in, and had been made great by the web of relationships that surrounded him that he had built in years of play. He had somehow escaped fate, but it had transformed what he was into something he no longer wanted to be.
My friend and I put down our books and dice that night and said, maybe this is just how it ends. Maybe you really can't go home again. Maybe that game, and it's beloved characters, just need to fade off into the mists of history and go from being a source of future entertainment to a set of tales of the good old days fondly recalled late at night when stories of games got told. Things stayed that way for almost two years, two years that saw the release of the 4E Realms, something that further convinced us the good old days were gone forever.
Then, in 2010, a group of friends, old and new, were gathered at my buddies house and got to talking about gaming. We trotted out all of our old war stories and the three members of the old crew got to telling the members of the new one about the 'grand old campaign'. We spent hours laughing and talking, and then someone (I don't remember who) asked, why aren't we all playing that game anymore? I answered one thing, my best friend another, both of which centered around the idea that there was no way to recapture the magic that was the game again. The old guys only wanted to play their old characters, but were stuck in that dead end future, the new people wanted to join the world, but couldn't walk in alongside characters with years of power and achievement. Then we hit upon an idea. What was it we liked about the game? What were the core things? And was there some way we could blend the old and the new that would allow us to tell new stories with new heroes, but still preserve the core of what made the old characters who they were?
The solution was this. We opened up the pages of the old campaign journal and flipped back and back and back to a moment in time where the old characters had enough of the adventures that made that game (and them) special and yet not so many that their fate, and the fate of their Realms, had marched down a road from which there was no turning back. We dropped the new characters, flush with the knowledge of one possible future, into the world at that perfect moment (Halaster's Higharvestide, 1369) and picked up the game from there. His old beloved character, even though he had been reduced in power and plot, was just as much fun to play for my friend as he got to re-examine old choices and take roads not traveled on his first go around, and the new players, possessed with a special status all their own, got to adventure in the world they'd heard so much about and write their own legends in a new timeline.
When I first read about 5E Realms, I thought 'maybe they can find a way to do a soft re-boot, something that allows for this kind of scenario for the Realms'. I know how unlikely that is, although the idea of releasing gaming materials with content stretched across all common eras of play makes it possible to get close. It allows for authors to tell tales of a 1373 (or 1375, or 1385) Realms with old characters having new adventures. Even better however, will be the 'Ed's Realms' product. It truly gives the dedicated OGB Realms players a chance to take the road of 'what if there was no...X' and play in a 'modern' Realms free of the things they don't care for that allows them to recapture the Realms of yore. Maybe we can even dust off a few old adventure journals and dig up a few beloved characters of our own...
Anyway, that's a long (too long!) way of saying, maybe there will be a way for some of us to go home again and see the Realms in the same light we saw them all those years ago. Even then, I won't abandon Ed, or what he is trying to do by nudging things onto a better path and bringing the Realms in the 1400's back into line with some classic elements of the past. Perhaps the best thing about the products being released in this 'brave new world' of 2012 is that I'll actually be able to choose to do either and still look forward to new stories and new lore. No matter what else happens, it's nice to be able to say that. |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 08:56:11
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quote:
Icelander
The problem is that [ageless stasis] is obviously not a common part of human lifespans. It's an exceptional event, extremely rare.
Evidently not as extremely rare as you'd prefer, within the Realms.
The Halls of the Beast-Tamers adventure printed in FR0 presents the "unique" Phezult's Sleep of Ages spell (and mentions its reverse, Phezult's Awakening). A spell specifically designed to preserve living creatures in stasis for years, centuries, millennia. It is a variation of the Temporal Stasis spell from the PHB (which is incidentally described as being "Uncommon" in FRA).
I can't imagine anything woven more deeply into the fabric of the Realms than material from AD&D (1E) FR0 and PHB. So, to me, these sorts of things (along with potions of longevity and a variety of other life-extending magics from the DMG) are hardly impossible to access. Perhaps they actually are rare and extraordinary ... but then again, so are the heroes and NPCs who attain epic levels. In a world where legendary heroes can aspire to become immortal and ascend to godhood, is it so unreasonable to assume lesser heroes (or even just filthy rich bastards) will have the means to add extra decades or centuries to their lifespans?
There are plenty of individuals who've been around forever, a few are even older than Netheril's Fall, there seem to be hundreds or thousands of ancient liches scattered around. And there are of course elves and shades and other long-lived creatures whose aging might not be apparent over a mere century.
Who's to say that Mirt hasn't cached decades or centuries worth of elixirs of youth in his cellars? The magics have been around forever, it's not like Mirt would have to wait until moments before the Spellplague before guzzling them all. Or perhaps he is only able to barely maintain a somewhat stable wheezing middle age, able to procure only enough elixirs (or other stuff) to barely offset his ceaseless aging, living year to year. Either way, he's been doing it successfully for a long time so there's really no reason for an inconvenient Spellplague to stop him from continuing. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Mar 2012 09:02:49 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 20:48:19
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Living into the new setting is cheesy. Killing them all off with no story is just... anticlimactic? (believe me - this is me being 'polite'). So here we are stuck with dead-end storylines and characters, or comic-book (more like soap-opera) 'come backs' of everyone.
The underlying problem is what caused this situation. Why are we (and authors) now stuck with both these bad choices? Its like voting for a politician these days; we have to choose the lesser of two evils. Its not pleasant, whatever is decided.
As for the soap-opera comment above - when I was a teen and taking a business course in HS, the teacher (as an exercise the first day) went around and asked each person what they wanted to be when they 'grow up'. I answered, "A grave-digger in a soap-opera town". When the teacher asked me to explain, I said its the easiest job in the world - they never, EVER find a body when someone dies. 
I live with two different soap-opera junkies, and at this point in time, General Hospital is being merged with at least one other soap opera that was recently cancelled (they are under contract, after all), and they are killing off (and otherwise getting rid of) redundant characters left-and-right. I have to say, my comment of thirty years ago still rings true - cars go off cliffs, and bodies aren't recovered. Good to see some things never change.
I am only mentioning this because if you think we got it bad, you should try following the COMPLETE lack of continuity in those assinine shows - children age 10 years overnight! (seriously - writers have a problem with the period between 6-16).
And my GF is a fan of Highlander, which doesn't even have anything close to resembling a continuity.
So, things could be worse..... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Mar 2012 20:51:27 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 21:24:14
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| I love Highlander, just the movie, there can be only one movie, not any other movies nor the contrived little TV series of the same name. Of course the question of immortality was central in Highlander, not incidental like it is in the Realms. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 21:28:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I love Highlander, just the movie, there can be only one movie, not any other movies nor the contrived little TV series of the same name. Of course the question of immortality was central in Highlander, not incidental like it is in the Realms.
Just so. In any discussion of Highlander continuity, remember this lesson: "There can be only one."
Suggestions that more than one movie existed can only come from the Father of Lies himself and be designed to poison the dreams of decent people. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Kris the Grey
Senior Scribe
USA
422 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 02:38:16
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Ah, Highlander. Indeed there can be only one (film). I must confess that film was so central to my teenage sci-fi fantasy worldview (sharing such status with classics like the movie 'Aliens', the first six 'Dragonlance' novels, and the 'OGB Realms' of course), that I've long used it's central plot conceit as the sole method by which most of the Earthers I've imported into the Realms in my cross-over games can meet with final death, at the hands of other Earthers.
Connor MacLeod: "I've been alive for four and a half centuries, and I cannot die."
Brenda: "Well, everyone has got their problems." |
Kris the Grey - Member in Good Standing of the Watchful Order of Magists and Protectors, the Arcane Guild of Silverymoon, and the Connecticut Bar Association |
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Laeknir
Seeker
68 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 03:44:13
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The main problem with threads like this, they totally ignore people who feel that the Spellplague crossed the line. For some of us, the Spellplague is not "fixable" and no amount of tinkering or fiddling with the Spellplague will actually make it better.
I believe that the Spellplague (and associated 4E changes / retcons / setting revisions) completely ruined the Realms beyond any tweakable "fixing" and as such the only "fix" is to utterly get rid of it. I don't even bother to participate in threads like "One Realms, one (...)" because to me the world revision of 4E utterly jumped the shark.
Sorry, but that's exactly how I feel. I actually get irritated by threads that suggest things can be patched and glued, as if only minor changes were made in 4E. I utterly detest what was done, and refuse to buy anything from the 4E era, I think it's that awful. Apologies if you're a designer in 4E, but it is absolutely NOT what I want, nothing about it can be fixed. I appreciate that you put time and effort into making things better, but to me 4E is just a cancer and you can't just whistle a happy tune and pretend like it didn't destroy the Realms.
If you have a different opinion, great and good for you. You may love the 4E Realms. I don't. I want the whole thing totally excised from Realmslore and never built upon again.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 04:12:58
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| This has already been argued numerous times before. I happen to be one of the crowd who reviles and rejects the Spellplague myself ... but it's already been indicated from the "official" sources that future canon is not going to retcon the retcon, so the best course of action is to just accept the annoying speedbump and keep moving forward to see where the D&D road will take us. Nothing more can be accomplished by standing at the side of the road shaking your fists in defiance while the D&D game accelerates into the dwindling distance. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 06:57:51
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I'm perfectly aware that there are some people for whom the Spellplague was the Realms' death knell. No scroll is ever going to be all inclusive, because we all have different opinions. Just pick and choose the scrolls that interest you and ignore the rest.
For me, I simply care because the Realms are the Realms, good parts and bad.
And while I think my ideas would help smooth things over in terms of the Spellplague, I think the fact that there's more to the story of the Spellplague left to tell is important all by itself.
To me, that's precisely how you move forward. I hope somebody at WotC decides to tell those stories. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Laeknir
Seeker
68 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 07:01:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
This has already been argued numerous times before. I happen to be one of the crowd who reviles and rejects the Spellplague myself ... but it's already been indicated from the "official" sources that future canon is not going to retcon the retcon, so the best course of action is to just accept the annoying speedbump and keep moving forward to see where the D&D road will take us. Nothing more can be accomplished by standing at the side of the road shaking your fists in defiance while the D&D game accelerates into the dwindling distance.
Actually, I'm not "shaking my fists" in some kind of hollow defiance. I'm taking a stand against poor product. If, as you say, WotC is simply moving ahead and letting 4E remain, then WotC has permanently lost a customer and I'll never buy anything from them again.
I see no evidence that D&D is "accelerating" or even making an attempt to return to its former quality. If they do not get rid of the spellplague and associated 4E changes, then they're only compounding their mistakes and the company deserves every single customer they've lost.
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Laeknir
Seeker
68 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 07:09:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
To me, that's precisely how you move forward. I hope somebody at WotC decides to tell those stories.
It's often necessary to stop and take a stand. I hope somebody at WotC gets a clue and really understands the damage done to the IP by 4E.
Sometimes to save a life, cancer must be surgically removed.
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 07:55:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
As irritating as the two people mentioned in this threads survival to 100 years in the future are the ones that were needlessly and uselessly killed off by the Spellplague. Two of Bob's characters in particular got no send off or hurrah. Just needlessly passed because of the "Spellplague" after 20 or so novels. The whole thing left me with such a bad taste in my mouth. I've stopped buying the Drizzt novels after Gauntlgrym. I just don't care anymore.
This. I thought that perhaps I had outgrown them, but you nailed it. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Lirdolin
Learned Scribe
Germany
198 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 11:31:09
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What I think to be kind of funny is, that many people seem to complain about the 'wonderous return from the dead' of heroes but doesn't seem to mind if arch-villans return from the grave.
See Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal. Bane made it back to the top, Myrkul preserved himself in an artifact and Bhaal, well, didn't made it sofar but who knows what Baldur's Gate 3 has in store? Liches of evil emperors like Shoon VII span centuries and let's not even think of Manshoon or Fzoul who should have kicked the bucket and burn in some private hell a long time ago.
But why is it so difficult to accept, that heroes can return in the same way? Villians return and plunge realms into darkness. Well to quote the FRGC backcover: "Realms of Dark Peril await." So the villians are already there and we in this case need some 3e (npc)heroes to return to help the 4e pc-heroes pull the realms back into light.
To me it is not difficult to asume that Mystra had contingency plans like the Dark Three. Or that Eilistraee's and Qilue's spirits were preserved in the Cresent blade contrary to the saying of some angels. Or that some heroes were magically imprisoned by their enemies and thus preserved for the current age.
Maybe even the 4e FRCG isn't right on all parts? Bruenor passed away, true, but not in Mithral Hall but fighting in Gauntlgrym. Alustriel died? Maybe she was captured by the orcs of Many Arrows and she became the slave of the Obould-kings (whose later numbers might have silver hair?), a fact that is either unknown or covered up?
The Realms are a magical world in which not only villans should be clever or lucky enough to make a comeback from the dead book. |
Edited by - Lirdolin on 25 Mar 2012 11:34:08 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 13:06:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Lirdolin
What I think to be kind of funny is, that many people seem to complain about the 'wonderous return from the dead' of heroes but doesn't seem to mind if arch-villans return from the grave.
See Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal. Bane made it back to the top, Myrkul preserved himself in an artifact and Bhaal, well, didn't made it sofar but who knows what Baldur's Gate 3 has in store? Liches of evil emperors like Shoon VII span centuries and let's not even think of Manshoon or Fzoul who should have kicked the bucket and burn in some private hell a long time ago.
But why is it so difficult to accept, that heroes can return in the same way? Villians return and plunge realms into darkness. Well to quote the FRGC backcover: "Realms of Dark Peril await." So the villians are already there and we in this case need some 3e (npc)heroes to return to help the 4e pc-heroes pull the realms back into light.
To me it is not difficult to asume that Mystra had contingency plans like the Dark Three. Or that Eilistraee's and Qilue's spirits were preserved in the Cresent blade contrary to the saying of some angels. Or that some heroes were magically imprisoned by their enemies and thus preserved for the current age.
Maybe even the 4e FRCG isn't right on all parts? Bruenor passed away, true, but not in Mithral Hall but fighting in Gauntlgrym. Alustriel died? Maybe she was captured by the orcs of Many Arrows and she became the slave of the Obould-kings (whose later numbers might have silver hair?), a fact that is either unknown or covered up?
The Realms are a magical world in which not only villans should be clever or lucky enough to make a comeback from the dead book.
I fully agree, especially for the ones who were removed pointlessly, just for the sake of it, without having them to achieve something actually remarkable or complete that fits them (one above all, at least for me, is Eilistraee with her 'sacrifice', whose result isn't worth of it at all). Or the ones who just 'disappeared' in the Spellplague. I could even accept something that feels cheap (like their elimination felt) to have them back.
Evil always wins (or will likely be back if defeated) gets tiresome if not balanced.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 Mar 2012 16:59:18 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 14:46:27
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It makes heroes LESS heroic. Without the threat of dying, it makes all their actions more about their own egos, and less about personal sacrifice. To me, a hero who can't die is just a grand-standing show-off. It is for this reason that Batman is infinitely more interesting then Superman.
Villains are supposed to 'cheat'. We hate them even more when they come back from the dead for that reason. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Mar 2012 14:50:09 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 14:56:21
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Still, if an hero sacrifices him/herself to accomplish basically nothing and in a way that doesn't fit his/her character, just because someone wanted to get rid of him/her for no apparent reason, then he/she's not an hero anyway. So, some of them who unjustly died should return.
Just my thoughts ofc. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 Mar 2012 15:00:50 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 16:08:30
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IMHO...
It just compounds the error, it doesn't fix anything. The problem was the century timejump, NOT the Spellplague itself. So long as the 'current' era remains in a future not many people like, FR can never be the success it once was.
I don't even need to argue this point - they will do what they want, and in 3-4 years time I will look up this thread and quote myself (or admit I was completely wrong, in which case its still a win for me). Hopefully there will still be a Candlekeep to post to then.
And to keep this more topical - I have nothing against the Spellplague itself. The name is a bit confusing (many fans thought it was an actual plague), but other then that, I find it very useful. To me, the Spellplague is nothing more then ToT 2.0.
The ONLY thing I still have a problem with (not even the rules at this point) is the timejump - there was no logical reason for it. All it did was eradicate most of the previous FR sources (in terms of usefulness). The Spellplague didn't do that - the 'century of nothing' did. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 25 Mar 2012 16:10:36 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3802 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2012 : 16:42:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
IMHO...
It just compounds the error, it doesn't fix anything. The problem was the century timejump, NOT the Spellplague itself.
I agree that the problem wasn't the Spellplague itself. It rather was the 'randomness' (can't find another word at the moment) that, *at least I*, felt from some of the events at the end of the 1300s, the Spellplague itself and the undeveloped aftermaths of all of this (century of nothing, as you said). They weren't a natural development of the storylines. In my eyes they felt forced, just meant to remove (even some very interesting) aspects of the setting in order to lighten the lore, and not to add depth. And they did it in a shockingly brutal and, for some events, awful way (again, at least to me). Bringing back some of the pointlessly removed characters and continue their pre-plague stories can (IMO) smooth the things out. I would be happy with it, but I was new to the Realms when this happened, so I can't say whether it would work for old date fans or not. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 25 Mar 2012 16:59:31 |
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There's more than one way to skin a Spellplague
