| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 14:10:08
|
Taangan demographics with reference to Yaimunnahar
General Taangan demographics
Having speculated that the approximate number of people living nomadic herding lives on the Taan in 1357 DR was at least 1,500,000, I still have to work out what that means for Yaimunnahar in 1373 DR.
First of all, I'd like to examine of 1,500,000 is enough for all the warriors I've canonically seen mentioned. In order to field 300,000 full-time warriors in Yamun Khahan's Grand Army of the Tuigan, there must have been a certain number of Taangans who were not cut-out to be warriors, who were too old for it or whose wounds had made them incapable. Also, there must have been some healthy young men who did not accept Yamun Khahan's overall authority, even if all the khans who attended his couralitai did.
For example, for those among the Hsu-Hsu or Fankiang who did not wish to fight for Yamun Khahan, it would have been easy to ride north and avoid the whole issue. Besides, his son Tomke, sent to subdue those tribes and obtain troops from them, brought far less than the number of soldiers implied by the fact that the Fankiang along have more than 80,000 full-time soldiers who do not other work and the Tsu-tsu and Kashghun together are apparently a counterbalance to them, as well as the Igidujin being numerous enough to cause these huge cavalry armies troubles with their raids.
The balance of the evidence suggests that Tomke's army might have been composed mostly of men from these tribes at the end of his campaigns. There must have been some Tuigan loyalists to keep order, but these need not have been very numerous if Tomke had allies among the Fankiang. All the same, Tomke's army did not number more than 30,000 men and that's supposed to include all the men they got from the Plains of Horses. Clearly, there were a lot of men who simply rode away, even if their qaghans submitted or claimed to be allied with Yamun Khahan.
Okay, it looks like around 400,000 warriors is a more plausible number for all the Taangan, with a lot of them not serving in Yamun Khahan's armies for one reason or another.
I'll assume that men between 16-60 years in age count as 'warriors' unless they have a crippling physical problem or a very rare mental one. I'll further assume that Taangan society makes it rare for men not willing or able to be warriors to live to adulthood and that many of those crippled in warfare, raiding, hunting or riding also end up dying in short order, even if taking care of them is considered honourable. Furthermore, few elders live long after they stop being able to ride to battle.
Even with these assumptions, the existence of an underclass of Taangan folk who are slaves, criminals or 'poor relations', canonically not liable for military service, as well as the ability of certain adult men to say that their wisdom is the wisdom of tents, not war, and pursue a career in politics or shamanism, suggests that the total number of adult men is closer to 500,000 than any lower number. This despite the likelihood of only 5% of men being over 60 in age, because it is simply implausible that constant warfare would not produce a fairly high proportion of wounded men incapable of serving as soldiers any more.
Having established that, we note that everything written about Taangan society suggests that males are exposed to danger from childhood on out, with a large part of them dying by violence, whether in individual disputes, interclan raiding, intertribal raiding or wars. In addition, customs such as a duty to marry sisters-in-laws and stepmothers after the death of a father or brother, as well as the obvious polygyny practised by all noyans in Tuigan society, suggests that women outnumber men.
However, historical societies have often experienced rates of maternal mortality which made a career as a mother and caregiver considerably more hazardous than that of a warrior. A historical average seems to have been around 1%, but exposure to harsh elements and a lifestyle which makes storing a surplus of food difficult can make the statistics much worse. Even in modern Afghanistan, with access to medical care that is probably much easier than among the Taangan nomads, the rate is as high as 2%.
Nomadic pastoralist societies on Earth also show higher levels of mortality at all age groups than similar societies with the same access to modern medicine. The combination of poor shelter from the elements and storage for surplus food necessiated by a mobile lifestyle and the exposure to pathogens from animals, which may be called the worst of both worlds, as it incorporates the flaws of both acricultural settled lifestyles and a hunter-gatherer one, combines to make the life expectancy very low.
A significant fact is that in the absence of widespread warfare, men outlive women significantly in these societies. And while widespread warfare can indeed reduce the life expectancy of men below that of women, it does so by reducing male numbers at a faster rate than female ones, so the end result is still higher maternal mortality rates than any modern society.
It's therefore not unreasonable to conclude that maternal mortality among the Taangan people is somewhere between 2%-5%, fluctating between years in accordance with weather and with the highest number among people with the lowest social status. We know that it affects even Empresses, so it's not an unreasonable assertion.
This means that more than 1 in 10 Taangan women would die merely in the course of bearing two children. Of course, it is unlikely that more than 2 in 3 children lived to adulthood* and that means that just a replacement birth rate, assuming in all other areas modern mortality rates for adults**, would result in almost one in five Taangan women dying in childbirth.
On the other hand, tribal societies have been demonstrated to suffer casualties from endemic warfare that far outstrip what modern people think is a terrible casualty rate in war. Anything up to 60% of the males in historical and modern*** tribal societies are killed in conflicts with other tribes. Every year, 1% or so of the adult males in a population might be killed fighting other bands, clans, tribes, etc. Obviously, this will fluctate, but it is not unreasonable to assume that one of the reasons for Yamun Khahan's desire to conquer other lands was that he knew that at least that way, the constant violence would have less of a chance to wipe out his own people.
Assuming that less than 10% of the total population of the steppes is more than 60 years old and thus few enough to almost ignore in a macroscale analysis, we'll need to set a reasonable number for adult mortality, i.e. mortality between 16-60, that is exclusive of the gender-specific ratios above.
As a starting assumption, we're going with the extremely generous 0.5% of the total population dying per year over that time.
In addition, those who survive violence and childbirth pass into the 'elderly' population at a rate of ca 2% of the survivors per year, if all age cohorts are approximately the same size and that fluctations in mortality rates even out.
Accounting, then, for the need to replace the victims of violence and misadventure, as well as those growing old and ceasing to contribute, we find that every year, the number of children who survive to turn 16 and become adults, needs to be at least 2% of the total adult population. Since this does not include the fact that in order to accomplish that goal, the average woman will need to give birth to a considerable number of children and that this will result in the death of many of them before they reach their alloted number, the true number is actually higher.
All the same, let us say that 2% of the adult population per year is pretty much the maximum that the lifestyle of the Taangan allows and that the intertribal warfare has a real chance of causing a population crash. We're still left with adult male population being much lower than adult female population. In order to make 200,000-300,000 children per year even remotely plausible, we'd need a breeding population of at least 600,000 women.
More likely, 800,000, as those who are out of breeding age, but not yet old, are probably among those on the Taan least likely to die per year. So the 1,500,000 people on the Taan I originally proposed is more likely to be the number of adults on the Taan.
Which is fine. In a society where it is unlikely that more than half of children reach the age of 5, why would anyone count them? Until five, they are just bundles of hopes and dreams. From five to fifteen, they might be useful and actually tend to die rather seldom, so they are much more likely to be counted. But any reasonable pre-industrial society has children outnumbering adults by such huge margins that it's impossible for a society to have 300,000 adult warriors without also having millions of children.
I'll go with about 200,000+ live births per year, with ca 100,000 of them reaching the useful age of five. Between five and fifteen, less than 5% will die, so we can assume around 100,000 coming of age per year.
This means that between 1360 DR and 1363 DR, when Yaimunnahar was declared, some 150,000 new potential warriors of the steppes would have come of age.
Even if the absence of so much of the men affected living standards and breeding rates, we would expect to see the largest impact from that among the very young children and in the birth rate from 1359 DR to 1364 or so. The oldest age cohort, already adolescents when the Grand Army rode to war, would have been expected to take on a lot of adult duties, but with a strong leader forbidding intratribal warfare, probably not ones that were exceptionally dangerous.
Mortality rates for children under the age of five during the years of warfare and until some semblence of normality (or better) is achieved would certainly have been higher. This would affect children born between 1354 DR and 1363 DR, at least. Depending on the number of returning veterans, their economic standing and their attitudes toward polygyny, the birth rate which probably plummeted for 1359-1361 DR, could remain low for some time.
Before the wars of Yamum Khahan, it is probable that the Taangan numbered near 1,500,000 adults, million children over the age of five and million children under the age of five. For at least a generation, their numbers had trended downward, with the birth rate insufficient to keep up with the rate of violent death in intertribal warfare.
Yaimunnahar demographics
A 3e source for Yaimunnahar (Dragon #349) has 100,000 Tuigan there in about 1374 DR. I've chosen to assume this refers to the number of warriors, not the total number of people.
By normal Taangan demographics, that number indicates the presence of ca 25,000 adult and older men who are not capable of being warriors, ca 270,000 women, 75% of whom are of breeding age, and ca 300,000 children and adolescents over the age of five.
I'm going to go ahead and assume that the elderly, families without a competent provider and those left crippled or bereft by war, as well as those who feel threathened by independent khans; would have flocked to Yaimunnahar if they were allowed.
Let's take a look at how the demographics of Yaimunnahar would have looked like at the founding. Then, Hubadai Khahan might not have had much more than 30,000 veterans of his father's campaigns. He also had a Yunichaar of 10,000 soldiers, but they did not have families or contribute to either the population or the economy.
The friendly khans of the tribes he left behind to wait for his return would have experienced two years of growth. Added to their veterans would be at least 30,000 newly adult warriors.
Let's assume, then, that fully 20% of the total population of the Taangan was behind the founding of Yaimunnahar. After that founding, of course, the demographics of the remaining traditionalists and the new kingdom diverge.
So, we have 60,000 adult men (with an extra 10,000 men outside demographics). That gives us around 15,000 old, crippled or non-soldierly men. The women would be 160,000, with 75% of those of breeding age. Furthermore, we have around 150,000 adolescents between 10-15 years, 120,000 children between 5-10 years and 200,000 children below the age of five.
As I'm proposing that Hubadai Khahan founded Yaimunnahar in large part because he wanted to take care of his people in the way that he saw King Azoun IV become so beloved for doing, I think that the refugees from small clans, those crippled and bereft by the wars and all the others who would ordinarily have died on the harsh steppes would be welcomed into the new kingdom. Also, most of those who had been crippled in the service of his father would have a guarantee of support from the son, if they cared to take it.
I'll therefore propose that fully one third of those who would otherwise have died because of harsher conditions than usual on the Taangan over the next couple of years instead came to Yaimunnahar. Among these people, significantly, were next to no useful military men. If we grant that adult mortality among 'useless' men and all non-breeding women would have been up by as much as an extra 1% per year for a while and that mothers with children below 5 year old were suffering nearly double the usual mortality rates, we get some 200 non-military men, some 660 non-breeding women and 12,000 women of breeding age with some 60,000 young children immigrating per year, at least for the first two or three years.
I'll furthermore propose a significant drop in infant and maternal mortality resulting largely from a settled lifestyle, at least as soon as Yaimunnahar starts to be able to feed its population. Assuming that Hubadai Khahan was in possession of staggering piles of loot from Semphar, Shou Lung, Rashemen and Thesk, it is not implausible that his allied tribes were already rich in horses, cattle, sheep and goats and that he arrived back on the Taangan prepared for the founding, in that he brought Faerunian seeds, farming equipment and acricultural labourers, at least enough to start the fields.
On the other hand, I'll note that Hubadai Khahan's adoption of Cormyrean mores might have prejudiced him against some Tuigan customs, such as polygyny. I imagine that while he could not ban it, those who seek his favour now take care to superficially adopt all sorts of Cormyrean customs, such as monogamy. Concubines are kept discreetly.**** This, combined with a greatly expanded range of economic opportunities for female Taangans in Yaimunnahar, will keep the birth rate down.
All in all, I expect that much fewer children are born, but a reduction from 50-70% mortality rates down to 25-35% means that about the same number make it to adulthood. However, I doubt that this became noticable until ca 1366 DR or so, because until then, the infrastructure of the new kingdom would not support most of the people there.
Counting immigrants, we'll check the numbers for a hypothetical Yaimunnahar in 1366 DR. The adult males will have suffered less than a thousand in retirements and so on and the adult females between one and two thousand. Insignificant numbers, really. The trend is upwards, not downwards.
The old or crippled men can be considered to number maybe 25,000, given that many veterans of the wars would have a claim on Hubadai Khahan's care.
Counting immigration, the number of women past 40 are still around 40,000. If we suppose that the men made unable to serve by the wars have wives and suchlike, all of whom must also be supported, I suppose we might arrive at 60,000 without too much trouble. These women and many of the 'crippled' men, of course, are able to contribute much more to a settled society than a nomadic one. They are able to instruct the young, work around a farm, do craftswork, etc. Indeed, the women between 40-60 years of age will be an extremely valuable part of the labour force in a settled society.
Adult men will be 30,000 veterans + 30,000 young warriors + 45,000 young men growing to adulthood in a settled society. From the fact that Hubadai Khahan has only 100,000 warriors in 1374 DR, I'm assuming that only the best of the young warriors would continue to serve in a military capacity and that of the young men who came of age after the founding, he'd do his best to encourage them to become farmers.
Adult women of breeding age would be at least a whooping 200,000, outnumbering prefered mates almost two to one. The logical thing to do would be to encourage polygony by the best providers, but as I noted earlier, if Hubadai wants to emulate Faerunian society, this is going to be discouraged. Instead, a lot of single girls are going to be taking up careers and professions instead of having children. Expect that professions like scribe, administrator, user of magic and scholar, as well as a lot of other trades new to Taangan society, will be heavily dominated by young women. If Hubadai has any sense, most of his emerging bureaucracy will be female.
Even with this gender disparity, the number of adolescents from 10-15 years old will be around 130,000 in 1366 DR. Children between 5-10 will number a whooping 155,000 while children below the age of five will be 120,000. The number of children born per year is only 30,000, however, and even with 20,000 of them reaching adulthood, the average age of the population is going to be going up.
While Cormyr is not specifically a feudal society, the immense social engineering project that Hubadai Khahan is trying to carry out would work best if he were to grant prime land to those who served in his military forces and allow them to collect rent on harvests gathered there by those who remain home to reap and sow. His knights would thus become a noble class of landowners and an 'underclass' of peasants would come into existence, consisting mostly of those who did not receive a grant of a smaller land freehold.
I imagine that initially, most of the 'peasants' would simply be those not close enough to the people in power to be favoured with a land grant and who thus worked for pay on the land of others. If Hubadai had good economic advisors and a crackerjack bureaucracy, maybe a certain size of freehold was made available upon application to all those who would and could work them well and the knightly land grants were then worked by freeholders in their spare time, with the proceeds going both to feed the military class and increase the surplus for industrious freeholders.
As long as the population remained less than the acceptable acricultural land, this would have worked. As soon as there were more households than land for profitable freeholds, of course, a permanent underclass would spring into existence. Of course, the fact that a huge number of people could still continue as pastoralists on land not rich enough to farm would ensure that being a serf would still be a choice on someone's part, to farm land not his own rather than to tend herds not his own.
Assuming that there was no large scale war between Yaimunnahar and the other claimants for the Khahanate, the armed forces of Hubadai Khahan's kingdom would still have fought small bands of orcs and hobgoblins, ogres and oni, as well as other monsters. In fact, it would become more important to clear out potential threats from areas when it was not possible simply to ride away and return later. Also, I expect that Taangan bandits would have been fought from time to time.
Even so, I think that losses were astronomically less than in the endemic tribal warfare of pre-Yamun days. In the absence of a war, a gifted young rider and archer could become a squire at 16, be awarded a knightly holding in his twenties and continue to serve as a professional warrior until the age of sixty, still with over 50% odds of survival.
With this in mind, let's look at the 1372-1374 DR period, that is, about the time when Yaimunnahar has an army of 100,000 men.
Older men and those not fully able-bodied are around 30,000. Seperating now the older women from those between 40-60, the older women are around the same number, i.e. 30,000.
Women still of working age, but no longer among the breeding population, are ca 70,000.
Adult men and this time we count the Yunichaar, number around 200,000. Of these half are warriors and the other half have become farmers or labourers.
The potential breeding population of women is around 230,000, with significant number of the widows who did not remarry having aged out of childbearing age while learning new skills and working in new careers.
They still form an emerging middle class of single women with more education than the average citizen and it from their number that most spellcasters are drawn. That their patronage is responsbible for the rise of houses of ill-repute where landless young men strut around with nothing on but oil remains unfounded. These houses usually have fine reputations and are managed either by discerning Taangan dowagers of taste and discretion or by Shou enterpreneurs quick to grasp the value of sing-song boys.
Adolescents between 10-15 years will number 180,000, while children between 5-10 are 130,000. Under the age of 5 there are around 150,000 children and there are now some 40,000 children being born each year, with 30,000 of them reaching adulthood.
This means that Yaimunnahar has a population of ca 1,2 million people in 1373 DR.
Compare that to the rest of the Taangan. Which I'll do, in another post.
*Very optimistic assumption. While it might be a decent average for infant mortality, the death rates for young children were massive too. A more reasonable suggestion would be that maybe half of live births made it to adulthood, which would mean maybe 1/3 of pregnacies meant new adults for the tribe. This, in turn, would mean that at least three out of ten Taangan women died in childbirth, merely trying to keep up with a modern rate of adult mortality.
**Which we shan't, just making a point.
***Where they've been encountered far enough away from larger and more organised states able to prevent endemic warfare.
****Hubadai Khahan evidently hopes to marry a Cormyrean noblewoman and he will know that he is more likely to be able to do so if the marriage would be considered valid in most of Faerun. On the other hand, he himself has at least two sons already by a concubine, Dura al-Mustasib, and this concubine is the daughter of the former Regent of Semphar, who as late as 1361 DR was functionally the 'prime minister' of that land on behalf of the Tuigan. If her father remains alive and important, Hubadai is nearly certainly married to her by Semphari law by now, even though he may not have made her a chief wife by Taangan law.
|
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 14:13:48
|
'Free' Taangan Numbers
With a population in 1360 DR of maybe 45,000 veterans and maybe 100,000 healthy adult males who didn't go to foreign wars, as well as about a million women, disabled men, slaves and the oldest adolescents (as well as a couple of million children), the Taangan who rejected Yaimunnahar far outnumbered those who accepted it.
Leaders
These peoples followed Chanar Ong Khahan, Tomke Gur-Khan, Chugali Shilai the Tian Qaghan (of the Fankiang), one of the (so-far) unnamed sons of Yamum Khahan or merely individual khans who did not claim rule over all the people of the Taangan, but did not desire to serve a Khahan either.
I'll suppose that there are maybe six sons of Yamun Khahan yet to be named, all born to concubines. None of them was yet twenty in the Horde wars and none had earned a fierce reputation like 'Prince' Jadaran Khan or Ongirat* Hubadai, nor even that of a competent campaigner like [unknown clan name]** Tomke.
Of those, maybe two have accepted posts under their brother Hubadai Khahan, who is eager to honour them and while not naive enough to discount the possibility of treachery, still believes that by treating them honourably and fairly, he may win their affection and respect.
One or two would seek some way to capitalise on their heritage without doing something as obviously suicidal as challenging the established claimants like Chanar Ong Khahan. I imagine that they might seek a post as apa qaghan with someone strong or that they might be used by Shou Lung mandarins or Semphari viziers to meddle in Taan politics.
At least two would have all their father's infallible belief in their own destiny and be gathering followers. If they have not yet been slain by Chanar Ong Khanan or another claimant, I imagine that they have at least the sense to keep to areas little ridden by others and build up their numbers while raiding other ordus. As no more than minghan commanders in the wars, they'd have a very hard time fielding any force that could challenge even Tomke's veterans, let alone the army of Chanar Ong Khahan or the hordes of the Fankiang, most of whom avoided the wars.
Demographics
No more than ca 2,500,000 nomads can successfully live on the Plains of Horses using traditional Taangan pastoralist methods and the far northern Endless Wastes left to the Khassidi can support barely 500,000 more. While the Taangan had been able to number up to 6,000,000 people, counting all children, in peaceful eras of the past, they did so by spending most of their time in the most hospitable places of the steppes.
Yaimunnahar might be less than a third of the area of the steppes, but it is sitting squarely on the best grazing land on the Taan.
By 1373 DR, the 'free' Taangan would number around 1,500,000 adults, 800,000 children and adolescents and well over a million young children.
This is already starting to press against the carrying capacity of their available land, enough so that livestock is leaner and smaller and the families with less successful providers are hungry most of the time.
Significantly, among their numbers would be almost 40,000 veterans of the wars and 400,000 young warriors, many of whom would have been raiding neighbours and fighting in minor tribal disputes for years.
This is assuming that no major wars have occured, but constant low-grade warfare has been going on between the various lesser factions.
In another post, I'll speculate as to how the political landscape might have evolved during these skirmishes and battles. One way or another, Hubadai will have to earn his title of Khahan over Yaimunnahar on the battlefield.
*My name for the Commani clan commanded by Abatai when he was Khan and the lineage counted through the First Empress.
**I imagine that his mother was of the Zamogedi, but either not from a noble family or the Tuigan simply despise the Zamogedi enough so that there was little question of a half-Zamogedi ever being considered as heir. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
Edited by - Icelander on 10 Mar 2012 18:51:52 |
 |
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 15:55:24
|
I had come up with a number of 1,000,000 total Yamun's army, which he cycled in three groups - Campaigning, active but on standby, and 'home' (but always ready to be called-up).
Some of that was from the box, but the rest came from The Horde miniatures rules, and the rest was deduced from the numbers thrown around in the novel series.
Bizarrely, Ra-Khati had something like 150,000 active troops - for a 'poor defenseless nation' (and tiny!), they could have taken-on most the Faerun heartlands by themselves. 
Standing-army numbers in FR are completely weird - we've had other threads about it. I have to guess that regions without magic in their armies require very large numbers to compensate. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 16:42:09
|
The Sons of Hoekun Yamun, Yeke Khahan of Taan and Illustrious Emperor (Huangdi) of All the Peoples
Yamun Khahan had many sons, but only three of them were favoured with high commands of the sort that suggested that they might be being groomed for succession. In light of the many similarities between Taangan culture and that of Turkic-Mongol nomads of real history, this is normal. A man might have many wives and concubines*, but Chief (or 'First') wives were the only ones who could provide a man with a lawful heir.
Hoekun Yamun was promised the daughter of Abatai, khan of a Commani ordu, in marriage while he was young. When he strangled his own father in his seventeenth year, Abatai refused to honour the engagement. Yamun, now Yamun Khan of the Hoekun, nursed a grievance, but was canny enough to know that Abatai, one of the three most favoured for the Khaganate of the whole Commani people, was too powerful for the Hoekun ordu to defeat. In a year of campaigning, he proceeded to unite many of the Tuigan clans by warring against the Dalats and was acclaimed Khahan of the Tuigan before his 18th birthday.
He also made war on the Quirish and [unknown] Chanar, son of Taidju Khan of an unnamed ordu of the Naican, became his most trusted friend and favoured commander on the battlefield. The two young men became anda and after being named Khahan of the Tuigan, Yamun Khahan named Chanar first among his generals and granted him the title of Governor-Prince and his Strong Right Hand.
The Naican had been conquered by Burekei Khan, Yamun's father and a powerful force in the councils of the Tuigan. To'orl of the Naican transfered his loyalty from father to son quickly and completely, which led to him becoming the wealthiest and most powerful lord among them in the course of time. The evidence strongly suggests Taidju Khan as a son of To'orl and Chanar as his grandson.
To'orl does not seem to have been named Khahan of the Naican (perhaps they had a different title, even), but the Tuigan warriors under Yamun Khahan rode against any ordus of the Naican who did not follow To'orl and thus Yamun Khahan. In time, Chanar Ong Kho effectively became the leader of the Naican, though he used the title Khan and not Khahan, to avoid appearing to compete with Yamun Khahan.
Between 1334 DR when Hoekun Yamun slew Burekei Khan, his father, and 1338 DR, when he finally felt strong enough to avenge the slight given him by Abatai Khan of the Commani, it is probable that he married Hoekun Bayalun, his stepmother, according to law and custom. As he certainly had no intention of siring heirs on her, he did not make her Chief Wife and probably took care to marry others, as well. After all, he was now a khan and on the path for the khaganate. It was probably during this time that he took Tomke's mother among his wives or concubines, though that might even have happened as soon as he was counted a man, among the Naican ordu of Taidju Khan in early 1334 DR.
In 1338 DR, a force of Naican under To'orl and Tuigan under Yamum and his Seven Valiant Men met the Commani under Abatai Khahan near Mount Bogdu. The Tuigan/Naican force won a great victory, Abatai Khahan was slain and his skull made into a drinking vessel and Yamun Khahan married the daughter of the dead Commani chief as his First Empress.
If she gave him children before Hubadai, none of the male ones lived to adulthood. It is possible, indeed probable by Taan demographics, that there might have been a stillbirth, a child who died in infancy and/or one that died before reaching age five. A daughter born before Hubadai is obviously a 50% chance and I think that I'll assume the existence of one in my campaign, to spice up court life in Yaimunnahar if nothing else.
Hubadai has to have been born before 1343 DR to be counted adult during the Horde wars and he cannot have been born before nine months after his mother was carried off by Yamun on the 11th of Tarsakh, 1338 DR. From the way that Yamun speaks of her death, I would imagine that at least a few years passed between the marriage and her death in bearing Hubadai, so his date of birth is most plausibly set between 1340-1342 DR.
Tomke and Jadaran have to be born before this, as they are clearly established as being older than Hubadai in Horselords. Tomke is the eldest, alone among Yamun's sons in not being considered a young warrior, but an experienced leader. He is, however, cautious in his movements and lacks the dash and drive that Yamun wants to see in Tuigan warlords. There is also a suggestion in the text, supported by the way that Eke Bayalun and Chanar Ong Kho appear to regard him, that his birth is less than stellar. Certainly, both 'Prince' Jadaran Khan and Ongirat Hubadai are considered potential heirs after the Khahan's (apparent) death, but Tomke is not.
This implies that Jadaran's mother could easily be made into an empress, if necessary, to legitimise his rule, but that such an expedient would not be acceptable to the Tuigan khans for Tomke's mother.
In order for Tomke to be clearly older than Jadaran and Hubadai, I think that his date of birth has to be well before 1338 DR. It may be best to assume 1334-1335 DR, with his mother being a concubine barely suitable for an exiled, young and poor noyan among the Naican, but not at all for the Khan of the Hoekun or the even higher glories to which Yamun would ascend.
The persistent tendency of Yamun to quarter Tomke in the eastern parts of the steppes, whether on campaign or in reserve, may indicate that Tomke is simply experienced in those parts from having warred there in his youth** or they may point to him being born to a Gur, Zamogedi or Quirish mother. The way that Tomke speaks of the Tsu-tsu makes it unlikely that he is at all familiar with them and it would seem unlikely that he is from the Fankiang.
Given that the Gur enjoy little prestige among the rest of the tribes and were early allies of the Tuigan against the eastern tribes, it may be that Tomke's mother was Gur. If so, she would have been a slave, battle captive or at least a low status woman living among the Naican of Taidju Khan. She may have been a gift from the indulgent Khan, who regarded Hoekun Yamun almost as his own son.
Jadaran Khan is that son of Yamun who appears most clearly in the Horselords novel. He clearly has a taste for finery greater than the average Tuigan and dresses in colourful silks. His face is narrower and more finely featured than Yamun's, but marred by pox-scarring on his right cheek and a pale half-moon shaped scar on his forehead. His hair has the same reddish tint as Yamun.
The evidence suggests that he is a natural leader and brilliant tactician, perhaps the finest war-leader among Yamun's sons, but with his slight frame, not as strong or personally fierce in battle. The other khans appear to consider him somewhat weak, in that he seems to be broad-minded and merciful compared to his father. All the same, Goyuk Khan, a very far-sighted and intelligent advisor of Yamun Khahan, appears to favour 'Prince' Jadaran as heir, even over the lawful heir, Hubadai. This may be because at that time, Hubadai is still very young and almost completely untried as a leader of men.
'Prince' Jadaran Khan cannot possibly be more than 22 years of age when he appears in Horselords. It would even be rather plausible to put him under twenty. A date of birth no earlier than 1337 DR and no later than Hubadai's, with a plausible year being 1340 DR. In light of his obviously youthful demeanour toward Goyuk Khan and Koja of Khazari, it is remarkable how willing the khans are to consider him as heir. It suggests a good birth and the support of many, like Goyuk, who like Jadaran for his own sake.
The fact that he is Khan in his own right suggests, furthermore, that his mother was noble and that the men of the ordu from which she stemmed accepted him as their khan. This could easily be one of the Tuigan ordus, of course, but the use of 'Prince' as his title suggests some foreign influence, as does his taste in clothing. The fact that he's chosen to govern Khazari has led me personally to favour him being from the Dalat tribe, with his mother being half-Khazari, the daughter of a princess given in marriage to a great Dalat chieftain who otherwise would have threathened Khazari.
Jadaran, was, in any case, not a son of Eke Bayalun, who does not seem to have given Yamun Khahan any children. Considering the political nature of their marriage and their mutual emnity, there is little reason to assume they ever shared a bed. Jadaran obviously hated the Second Empress and considered her a direct threat to himself.
If Jadaran is alive in 1373 DR, he could be an extremely formidable rival for Hubadai Khahan or his most able supporter. On the other hand, we know that he was the appointed governor of Khazari, specifically the city of Manass, when Solon invaded Khazari through the pass where Manass is situated in 1361 DR. To survive that, he would have had to flee and leave Khazari to its fate. As the most 'soft-hearted' of Yamun's sons, as well as a man raised to believe that cowardice was worse than death, I somehow see him as fighting to the death rather than give up his assigned duty.
Hubadai was certainly not the 'youngest' son of Yamun Khahan, who had an array of concubines and wives in 1359 DR and spent at least some of his time with them, and was known for having more sons than could be counted. Hubadai was, however, the youngest among the sons who were acknowledged as high officials of the Khaganate. This was not just due to ability, but also the fact that Hubadai seems to have been the only son born to the First Empress and thus the only lawful heir. Yamun Khahan is anxious that Hubadai earn a great reputation and thus puts him in a position where he has to conquer or die in Semphar, which seems to be Hubadai's first experience of high command.
In the Horde Campaign, Hubadai is statted as being a more impressive commander than the average Tuigan general, but less so than Yamun or Jadaran. He is, however, deadly in personal combat and seems to be the most athletic of Yamun's acknowledged sons.
Some of the difference between Jadaran's and Hubadai's battlefield leadership could also result from Jadaran having a couple of years more experience at warfare and his men also being more used to following him. The fact that Jadaran is almost as good as Yamun in the field while he's still an awkward youth seems to suggest that he may have had the potential to be better than his father with time, however.
Hubadai Khahan performed brilliantly on the battlefield in Semphar and displayed a strategic understanding that was fully equal to his operational flair. He anticipated his father's need for reinforcements and brought them there with dispatch which points to his logistical planning being equal to the disciplined main army. For a man so young that the other khans doubted his ability to command at all, this seems to suggest that he was already beginning to show his primary gift, i.e. his ability to select good subordinates, trust them to do their jobs and to direct their combined efforts with wisdom beyond his years.
If he had not had a change of heart and desired to become a father to his people rather than conqueror of the world, it is likely that he would have done so through a corps of gifted generals rather than Yamun Khahan's personal battlefield command. It is not that he lacked the ability to command on the field, but rather that his strategic vision would be more valuable than any contribution he could make as a battlefield commander.
Hubadai's generalship was that of a Q. Fabius Maximus Cunctator or an Eisenhower. By contrast, 'Prince' Jadaran Khan was naturally gifted as a field commander, a Hannibal or a Patton, but any potential strategic or political abilities were not much in evidence during his youth. That is not to say that he might not have developed such in campaigns where the DM decides that he lived. Certainly, Goyuk Khan considered him worth trying to teach and a quick study not blinded by arrogance or closed-minded conservatitism. Assuming a good instructor, Jadaran Khan might have learned much in his lifetime, as he appears to have been intelligent and willing to apply himself.
The final son of Yamun Khahan named in any source I have found is Odelu, named in Dragonwall. There it is made clear that the 'Khahan has many sons' and that apart from the three mentioned above, they do not appear to command men or be considered as heirs. The most plausible explanations for this are shameful origin, lack of promise as leaders and warriors or simply youth. More than likely, most adolescent sons are required to ride to war as simple troopers before being trusted with command. The exception, as noted earlier, might have been Hubadai, by law and Yamun's apparent sentiment, the heir.
Odelu died without commanding more than ten scouts in his father's campaigns. According to Jochiba, an old veteran, so did many other sons of the Khahan and as long as they died honourably, the Khahan did not mind. It seems that they counted as part of his family only upon earning his notice or if they were born to beloved or politically important mothers.
Any other sons of Yamun Khahan, unnamed so far, would thus be either men who failed to live up to his standards or men too young ot have been noticed yet. Even a very poor birth did not prevent a son from holding some high command if he was able, but an age below sixteen would have. Most likely Odelu was a raw youth in his first battle, just recently turned sixteen and allowed to go to war.
At most, there might have been sons who were either younger than Hubadai or a disappointments previously, who had earned the notice of the Khahan after Semphar and Khazari and allowed the command of mingghans or even tumen. If another rival for the Khaganate is desired, a son distinguishing himself in the Shou Lung or Rashemi campaigns is most plausible.
Of course, in the thirteen years between the end of the Horde Wars and the period I'm looking at, a lot of sons would have grown up. Many of them would consider their bloodline enough reason to be given great commands among any of the rival claimants and at least some would be prepared to assert that they were Yamun Khahan's true heirs. Any candidate for political influence on the Taan would find it comparatively easy to find a young son of Yamun's and use him as a cat's paw. Of course, without a personal reputation, such a son would be a poor symbol at best. And with the ability and willpower to earn a reputation, they'd be much more difficult to manipulate.
*The difference being very little and a favoured concubine could be more powerful and last longer than an ill-favoured wife. In addition, concubines who bore promising sons would quickly be named wives.
**The campaigns against the Zamogedi, where Goyuk Khan lost his teeth, for example. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 17:01:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I had come up with a number of 1,000,000 total Yamun's army, which he cycled in three groups - Campaigning, active but on standby, and 'home' (but always ready to be called-up).
Some of that was from the box, but the rest came from The Horde miniatures rules, and the rest was deduced from the numbers thrown around in the novel series.
From a close analysis of The Horde miniatures rules, the novels and the Hordelands and Kara-Tur boxed sets, I see no reason to assume that Yamun Khahan ever commanded more than 300,000 men.
I do, however, believe that Yamun Khahan army was never composed of all healthy men of all the tribes on the Taan. The easternmost tribes retained most of their soldiers and all tribes left a minimal force at home.
Even so, there is absolutely no reason to assume a full million warriors. By any plausible demographics, that would imply a population density on the Taan that could not be supported by nomadic pastoralism. The numbers I have, however, both fit the existing evidence and yield population densities that match real world ones for similar terrain and lifestyles.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Bizarrely, Ra-Khati had something like 150,000 active troops - for a 'poor defenseless nation' (and tiny!), they could have taken-on most the Faerun heartlands by themselves.
The Horde Campaign, the miniatures rules, do not mention Ra-Khati military forces. They do assert that Khazari could call up 75,000 men in total, but given that these are the combined forces of all the nobles (who never cooperate completely) as well as all militia and temple forces, that means little. Any Heartlands nation could call up truly staggering numbers of militia for a war fought at home, but that doesn't imply the ability to use any of these citizen soldiers to project force abroad.
In Troy Denning's trilogy about Ra-Khati, the total number of Ra-Khati troops is not specifically mentioned, but it is noted as being a 'feeble army' in comparison to four tumen of the Tuigan army and even dwarved by the 10,000 undead from Solon. In the decisive battle and after months of warning, Ra-Khati manages to field around 2,000 defenders, mostly from its monasteries.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Standing-army numbers in FR are completely weird - we've had other threads about it. I have to guess that regions without magic in their armies require very large numbers to compensate.
When designers reduce the populations of regions between editions but retain the size of the standing armies, they do become weird, I agree. Otherwise, most of them seem pretty viable. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2012 : 19:45:47
|
| Love the thought out posts. I might save this to my harddisk since it's so impressive. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2012 : 02:04:01
|
Trade over the Golden Way
There are a lot of things that Hubadai Khahan could reasonably want to import to Yaimunnahar. In the short term, he no doubt has access to vast reserves of coin and treasure. In the long term, however, he can't very well have a trade balance that's purely one way.
As noted in the scroll on the state of Shou Lung, there are excellent reasons to suspect that trade over the Silk Road through Khazari and Semphar has come to a virtual standstill due to the undead army of Raja Ambuchar Devayam, still a threat even after the defeat of its master. Furthermore, there is a good reason to expect that the 'free' Taangan will make use of the military weakness of Shou Lung and the destruction of the Dragonwall to raid into the northern provinces of Shou Lung, causing famine and desolation in those areas.
Combined, this translates into Shou Lung traders being unlikely to send their wares overland to the West. If nothing else, the danger is too great to justify it, given that the Golden Way is currently the 'safest' route and that goes over thousands of miles controlled by Taangan who rejected Yaimunnahar in favour of traditional customs, such as raiding and killing outsiders.
To some extent, I'm sure that Hubadai Khahan is sending military escorts along with favoured traders of Yaimunnahar, allowing them to reach Shou Lung and buy goods that will bring much profit when sold to traders from Faerun. I also imagine that Yaimunnahar merchants are the main buyers of booty from the ravaged northern provinces of Shou Lung from the 'free' Taangan, as the nomadic peoples would no doubt prefer livestock or useful weapons and tools over much of what they come across on their raids and the settled Taangan have far greater opportunities to sell such goods for profit.
Yet this is hardly enough to make for a prosperous and rich trade kingdom, such as Hubadai Khahan would like to see his realm become. The formerly rich Semphar is well situated to obtain goods from Faerun's Shining South as well as anything sold on the Sea of Fallen Stars, but what can Yaimunnahar offer in return that would tempt the merchants of Semphar (and through them, Durpari or other Faerunian buyers)?
Steppe horses are small and not particularly desirable mounts. While much is made of their hardihood and the prodigious feats of endurance the nomads are capable of on them, this results primarily from the fact that the Tuigan had many remounts per trooper and didn't have to carry feed for them. Grain-fed coursers are, realistically, superior to the small shaggy steppe ponies in almost every conceivable way, save that of logistics. It is therefore unlikely that there would be much demand for steppe ponies in other lands.
The Great Amber Steppes are the best acricultural lands of the Endless Wastes, but they are not on par with Unther's Greenfields or Mulhorand's Great Vale. It's hard to imagine them being able to grow anything worth transporting long distances, to lands with better acriculture. I think their food production is best used internally. This goes to livestock, as well, with the caveat perhaps that Yaimunnahar can trade cattle, horses and caprids with the 'free' Taangan.
What potential trade goods could Yaimunnahar profitably specialise in?
To look at things from another perspective as well, now that Semphar has lost the rich traffic of the Silk Road, how are their merchants to see similar profits again? What can they obtain from Yaimunnahar that can be sold to Faerun in great quantities and for high markups? |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2012 : 17:38:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Weapons, perhaps. Crafts.
The problem with weaponsmithing is that the methods used by the Taangan are very real-world medieval nomadic, whereas one of the things that we use to distinguish the end of the medieval era are the technological innovations apparently in use in richer nations of Faerun.
Water-powered blast furnaces aren't just a method to make better weapons, they are a more efficient method of working iron and steel and thus allow for cheaper manufacturing.
Since Faerunian nations have methods to make steel weapons cheaply in large quantities, the Tuigan can hardly compete with them using their own methods of manufacturing, which turns out an inferior product at a greater cost in materials and time.
On the other hand, we should expect the Tuigan to know all about blast furnances, a technology known in Shou Lung for a very long time and in Faerun for centuries. It's just that a nomadic lifestyle did not previous allow for the requisite investment in infrastructure. Having settled, that could change. On the other hand, Yaimunnahar is not all that lucky in the matter of water power to drive bellows or forests to turn to charcoal to heat furnances. Geographically, they are worse off than a lot of other places when it comes to large scale smithing.
Crafts, however, are more promising. What can the Taangan make more cheaply or better than others?
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
"Protection", if you can call that a good.
I do indeed. Now, if only there were a way that Yaimunnahar could get paid for protecting something...
Semphar doesn't have any spare cash while the undead close the trade route over the Silk Road. Doesn't make any sense for them to pay for ordus of Yaimunnahar warriors to scour the wild reaches between the Howling Gap and Alashan if the undead are able to raid caravans inside Khazari and Shou Lung anyway.
While the Bitter Well Caravan Route would probably be far enough away from undead to be safe from them, it doesn't lie within Yaimunnahar. While traditionally Oigur territory, I'd expect the 'free' Taangan tribes to raid caravans anywhere they can get to them, because they're a source of wealth and any khan looking to remain independent, support his own prefered candidate for khaganate or embark on a quest for it himself will need wealth.
Granted, Yaimunnahar can provide escorts for caravans over both the Bitter Well and the Golden Way/Spice Road. On the other hand, that's definitely going to escalate into a war with free tribes. So if I'm postulating a 1373 DR that hasn't seen large scale warfare and resolved the question of 'who rules the steppes' in a permanent fashion yet, I can't have them fully committed to a strategy of enforcing Hubadai Khahan's will everywhere on the steppes like that.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Yaimunnahar profits most simply being where it is, rather than producing things of particular value.
Their location is only profitable if there is significant trade going on in both directions.
With the northern provinces of Shou Lung hard-pressed by the free Taangan in the east, with the Spice Road exposed to raids by everyone from the Tsu-tsu, Pazruki, Zamogedi to the Quirish and with the western end of the Golden Way exposed to the Khassidi as well as any renegades still remaining who never went home after the Horde Wars, trade from East to West is not all that likely to bloom. And let's not forget the undead who apparently hold Ra-Khati, may hold much of Khazari and the Katakoro plateu and whose influence may extend far into Shou Lung and even back to Solon from whence they came.
More and more, it's beginning to seem like Kara-Tur is going to be cut-off from Faerun for a while. While the travails of recent years have not touched all the provinces and the empire consequently continued to function, a lot of ruination and ravages have been concentrated on all the provinces where trade with Faerun used to take place. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2012 : 22:54:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
What can the Taangan make more cheaply or better than others?
-Bows. We know that the bow and arrow is a staple among their warriors, and that they're quite good at using them. Presumably, they've developed bows that are ideal for mounted archery, and are able to be mass produced to the point that their hundreds of thousands of warriors are armed with at least one, plus however many arrows. At the end of the day, while they might not necessarily be any better or worse than bows produced anywhere else, they carry the 'mystique' of the Tuigan. Just like many people might opt to buy the genuine gurkha kukri rather than one made in California from modern steel and so on, people might opt to purchase Tuigan bows in favor of the more mundane stuff. It would only be cost effective for all parties involved to buy in bulk, given expense incurred because of the distances involved, and the perils coming to/going from the Hordelands, but...
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
More and more, it's beginning to seem like Kara-Tur is going to be cut-off from Faerun for a while. While the travails of recent years have not touched all the provinces and the empire consequently continued to function, a lot of ruination and ravages have been concentrated on all the provinces where trade with Faerun used to take place.
-Only via land routes. With such obstructions, I would feel that Shou Lung would increase efforts to establish and maintain safe water routes, to ensure that trade with Faerūn doesn't end. Especially since the nation seems on the precipice after the events of the Tuigan Horde and the Tan Chin army. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 00:03:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Bows. We know that the bow and arrow is a staple among their warriors, and that they're quite good at using them. Presumably, they've developed bows that are ideal for mounted archery, and are able to be mass produced to the point that their hundreds of thousands of warriors are armed with at least one, plus however many arrows. At the end of the day, while they might not necessarily be any better or worse than bows produced anywhere else, they carry the 'mystique' of the Tuigan. Just like many people might opt to buy the genuine gurkha kukri rather than one made in California from modern steel and so on, people might opt to purchase Tuigan bows in favor of the more mundane stuff. It would only be cost effective for all parties involved to buy in bulk, given expense incurred because of the distances involved, and the perils coming to/going from the Hordelands, but...
Good thought.
Yes, I imagine that there are a lot of fine bowyers among the Tuigan. Of course, they'll have to import most of the wood and all of the fish glue, but they'll be able to get horn and sinew themselves.
A Tuigan recurve is expensive enough compared to the weight to make it well worth transporting long distances. Granted, it's a bulky and inconvenient shape, but merchants will have these little headaches to deal with. 
Just to give some sort of perspective about the pricing, it demands picked wood*, some very particular bone parts, specially treated animal sinew, fish glue from freshwater fish, the making of which is a major hassle and demands very specialised knowledge and finally a piece of hide for the string, also given very special treatment.
The construction takes weeks, building it layer by layer, applying the glue at each step and then waiting a while before carefully starting the next one. Even after this weeks long process, all of which, mind you, requires expert knowledge, the bow must be stored in the right temperature and humidity for at least one year, sometimes two.
A composite recurve bow was in real history usually more expensive than a good steel sword and could easily match a mail coat in price. And it only weighs ca 2 lbs. In D&D terms, an accurate price for a 'basic' composite bow, not adjusting for any cachet of its maker or origin nor possible exceptional quality over and above other composite recurve bows, would be around 90-100 gp each.
Assuming that you keep each bow in an individual leather case, a fair-sized chest on a wagon could still carry ca 20 with spare strings and maintainance tools and still weigh only 100 lbs. You could carry two such chests on a mule cart, meaning that you'd have a cargo worth 3,500-4,000 gp on a single small cart.
*Maybe not to the extent an exceptional selfbow would, given that there is no other material to provide tension there, but still, you need a well chosen piece of wood for any bow.
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Only via land routes. With such obstructions, I would feel that Shou Lung would increase efforts to establish and maintain safe water routes, to ensure that trade with Faerūn doesn't end. Especially since the nation seems on the precipice after the events of the Tuigan Horde and the Tan Chin army.
I agree that Shou Lung should establish sea trade routes to Zakhara, Utter East, Faerun, Chult and Maztica and that they should ply such trade routes with hundreds of huge cargo ships per season. I think that discussions about that fit better in the Kara-Tur/Shou Lung scroll, however. 
More relevantly to Yaimunnahar, even if Shou Lung does manage to make up for the loss of overland trade by an upsurge in naval trade, that still leaves their formerly lucrative trade crossroad position as a backwater.
From a gaming point of view, this is not a bad thing. The 'free' Taangan tribes have an overwhelming ecological incentive to take over the land of Yaimunnahar and do it soon, because their own land cannot sustain their growing population for long.* Meanwhile, Hubadai Khahan has an overwhelming economic incentive to defeat any khans unwilling to obey his commands, because if he doesn't, Shou Lung won't trade with Faerun over his lands.
*The alternative, zero population growth, is not so palatable when one considers that the Taangan have historically achieved that 'goal' with extremely high mortality rates. If the tribes aren't constantly warring, the Taangan grow too numerous for their herds to be able to feed them all. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2012 : 04:40:10
|
| You're pretty good at this analysis stuff. You should try to "correct" the population of Faerun's nations, they've never seemed right. |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2012 : 16:16:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
You're pretty good at this analysis stuff. You should try to "correct" the population of Faerun's nations, they've never seemed right.
I tend to use the number that makes sense to me, regardless of what edition that comes from.
I'll agree that the 'fixing' of Faerun's demographics that was done in 3e, by forcibly adjusting them to fit with D&D standard demographics, was uncalled for. Any system of 'standard' demographics must always reflect some kind of average in a world with certain unspoken assumptions and you don't adjust specific numbers to fit an average.
Of course individual settlements will differ from it, just as Toril will have different demographics than Athas or Greyhawk.
That being said, what numbers in particular don't make sense to you? |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 18:42:27
|
First, Yamun lost about 100,000 soldiers (or more) in his Kara-Tur campaign (I had all the hard numbers - a lot of which was taken directly form the novels). He also marched upon Thay with at least 250,000 men.* He also had a standing (occupying) army left in Semphar, troops based at home, and at least one other army we do not hear much about (a southern one that may have fought with Murghom, Mulhorand, and even ventured south through Thommar.. but thats conjecture). I have to assume the remnants of that 'lost' force wound up around the Vilhon Reach somehow (see Swords of the Iron Legion).
I used to have all the numbers and sources, but I don't anymore. Either way, he lost over 300,000 troops in all the wars, so your numbers are off. A massive army was still able to return home when all was said and done.
Any how, my reason for dredging-up this thread was because I found some info to support my claim that Teylas was Talos, NOT Akadi. As Kozah (another incarnation of Talos/Gruumsh), he was represented as a 'grey whirlwind'. As I have stated before, I think the elemental Lords (being Primordials) had deals going with certain deities (who answered the prayers for spells), and the power derived from worship was shared. In fact, Elemental Lords may have had different deities doing this in different regions.
And in the novel Horselords, Yamun Kahan is clearly a Chosen of Teylas, and their are striking similarities between him (as an unstoppable barbarian king who unites all the tribes) with Obould... who happens to be a chosen of another incarnation of Talos - Gruumsh. Ergo, we have a recurring theme of these barbarian overlords showing greater-then-mortal abilities, who keep throwing hordes at 'civilized' peoples, all throughout Faerunian history - seems like something right up Gruumsh's alley - if one tool doesn't work, find another. The Hlundadim may have been another such (or perhaps even a manifestation - mortal avatar - of Gruumsh himself).
*EDIT: I just checked The Horde miniatures supplement, and it was indeed 100,000 men (in that source). I have to wonder if the writer of that source even bothered to read the trilogy (which disagrees with it quite a bit in regards to troop-types and sizes).
Since that was written for the miniatures rules, and not the RPG rules, I have to question its veracity over the novels as canon. It even seems to disagree with the Hordelands box in regards to Yamun's army size (although not the makeup - that appears to have been adopted from the other source verbatim).
I have to agree with you completely that not all the tribes sided with Yamun - it appears to have been the ones primarily of pure Tuigan (K-T/Oriental) decent. Several tribes were of mixed bloodlines (especially the desert ones - they had a lot of Mujhari), and didn't readily follow Yamun Kahan (unless conquered and pressured to do so). He also refused non-human troops in his army - his son approached Ogres in the region of the Yellow Grass Steppes (Horse Plains on K-T maps and material).
EDIT2: On the question of 'exports', apparently the surface drow of the Forest of Mir are fond of riding 'war ponies of the Tuigan variety' (Drow being quite short - even shorter then regular elves - probably can't ride horses very well). Now, whether we surmise they somehow purchased them (unlikely), or raided for them (likely by behavior, but not by distance), apparently there would be a market for those small horses (I am sure Halflings, and perhaps even gnomes and Dwarves might also be interested in such).
I just chalk-up that odd bit of lore to an ancient Ilythiir portal somewhere near Mir that leads to the Spiderhaunt Peaks, myself (the Ilythiir lands stretched across all of southern Faerūn, so its not all that far-fetched to assume that they went as far east as The Taan back then). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 02 Apr 2012 19:52:27 |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 19:16:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And in the novel Horselords, Yamun Kahan is clearly a Chosen of Teylas, and their are striking similarities between him (as an unstoppable barbarian king who unites all the tribes) with Obould... who happens to be a chosen of another incarnation of Talos - Gruumsh. Ergo, we have a recurring theme of these barbarian overlords showing greater-the-mortal abilities, who keep throwing hordes at 'civilized' peoples, all throughout Faerunian history - seems like something right up Gruumsh's alley - if one tool doesn't work, find another. The Hlundadim may have been another such (or perhaps even an manifestation - mortal avatar - of Gruumsh himself).
-The case can be made, but basing conclusions on "it's too similar to be coincidental" isn't very reassuring and conclusive. Look at real world religion for a second, and the work of Joseph Campbell, the writer and scholar on mythology and religion. He isolated the elements of "the heroes journey" (found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monomyth) and demonstrated how they are found in the mythologies of American Indians, the Norse, the Arabs, the Zulu, everyone. Relying on historical analysis only, there aren't too many modern-era anthropological connections between, say, American Indians the Zulu, or the Arabs. Campbell's personal spiritual beliefs that the reasons for all of these similarities in cultures was because of some sort of interconnected Human consciousness, but as of right now, that can't be proven, and we have to take things at face value, that cultures thoroughly disconnected from each other developed "parallel" mythologies. That Gruumsh and Teylas exhibited similar behaviors, right now, they're just seemingly that- similar behavioral patterns. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 20:06:00
|
I wrote a 35-page term paper based on Joseph Campbell's Hero with a Thousand Faces back in college, which not only got an A+ from two different professors, but I was told by the mythology professor that it was "the finest thing I ever read".
So yeah... I'm vaguely familiar with Joseph Campbell. 
My point wasn't that it was a canon fact, but rather Teylas appears a helluva lot more like Talos/Gruumsh, then it does the flighty Akadi. Obould's 'chosen' status is questionable, but if you read Horselords, Yamun Kahan's is not (although the word 'chosen' is never used IIRC, the one chapter/scene makes it abundantly clear - he strides out into a horrific thunderstorm with lightening flying all around him, and a 'miracle' occurs).
To me, Gruumsh represents an in-between state of civilization - an aspect of a wargod somewhere between primal hunter (Malar/Herne), and the overly-civilized Helm or Torm. He represents the barbarian - NOT the savage. Strangely, he even has a somewhat noble aspect as well - a true warrior does not go after easy prey, or defenseless targets. A true warrior tries to tear down that which offends the more natural way of things ('soft' men and women, who dwell in cities, and who's only contribution to society is to live off of others like a parasite). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 02 Apr 2012 20:07:41 |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2012 : 20:30:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
He also marched upon Thay with at least 250,000 men.*
If you check Horselords, you'll find that the number of his army as he entered Thay is given in the book and that it matches the Horde Campaign. Szass Tam counts his soldiers by magic and gives a precise figure.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
He also had a standing (occupying) army left in Semphar, troops based at home,
He left 5,000 men to hold Semphar and three thousand of them later left to reinforce the invasion of the West. I accounted for these.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
and at least one other army we do not hear much about (a southern one that may have fought with Murghom, Mulhorand, and even ventured south through Thommar.. but thats conjecture). I have to assume the remnants of that 'lost' force wound up around the Vilhon Reach somehow (see Swords of the Iron Legion).
I wondered about the Swords of the Iron Legion army, indeed. I did not see anything in the Empires trilogy to suggest that Yamun Khahan had a southern army or that any military activity that involved his forces took place to the south of his Semphari, Ra-Khati and Khazari invasions.
Do you recall where you saw anything that suggested this? I would love to have some canon that indicated that there had been clashes between Murghom and Mulhorand with the Taangan, but I couldn't find anything, which led me to believe that the force in Swords of the Iron Legion could not have travelled over their lands. I wondered if Yrketep had been involved with Tan Chin somehow, at least so that Tan Chin allowed him the use of portals to bypass these enemies. What he stood to gain I don't know, but it's an interesting thought experiment nonetheless.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I used to have all the numbers and sources, but I don't anymore. Either way, he lost over 300,000 troops in all the wars, so your numbers are off. A massive army was still able to return home when all was said and done.
My numbers match Horselords, Dragonwall and Crusade, not to mention The Horde Campaign and the three adventures set around Ra-Khati. So far, there appears to be fair internal consistency in these sources, enough so that the casualty rates match the numbers he can field in later battles.
Granted, there was always an X factor in regard to how many warriors were left on the steppes, but as it applies to the men who rode with the Khahan, I have confidence in the numbers. If you think they are wrong, you'll have to point out where I err. As far as I can see in the preceding posts I made about army size, I based numbers on canonical sources and specified when I was extrapolating from them and when I was repeating a number that was stated directly.
See a post titled 'Size of the Tuigan Horde' in this scroll. I think that mentions the numbers involved.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And in the novel Horselords, Yamun Kahan is clearly a Chosen of Teylas, and their are striking similarities between him (as an unstoppable barbarian king who unites all the tribes) with Obould... who happens to be a chosen of another incarnation of Talos - Gruumsh. Ergo, we have a recurring theme of these barbarian overlords showing greater-then-mortal abilities, who keep throwing hordes at 'civilized' peoples, all throughout Faerunian history - seems like something right up Gruumsh's alley - if one tool doesn't work, find another. The Hlundadim may have been another such (or perhaps even a manifestation - mortal avatar - of Gruumsh himself).
Sadly, I cannot see any way to reconcile the Talos of the Forgotten Realms setting with the god Gruumsh. One is about destruction as a goal in itself, the other about territory as a source of wealth and power. Regardless of the attempt by 3e to make Gruumsh CE and 4e to make him the same as Talos, the portfolios and guiding motivations of the gods differ too much. The way I see it, making Gruumsh the same god as Tyr would be equally logical.
Yamun Khahan did destroy in the course of his conquests, but he was remarkable and successful not because of his appetite for mindless destruction, but because he knew how to form coalitions and build a new national identity. From the perspective of 'civilised' Faerunians, he may appear to be a force of destruction. From the perspective of the Taangan he was a paragon of law, order and civilisation.
His alignment was listed as LE or LN. Neither he nor Obould (who I agree have many things in common, being based on the same real-world phenomenon) have anything to do with Chaotic alignments or destruction for destruction's sake. While I can't do much about stupid and badly researched canon that is already canon, I can at least avoid compounding the error by inserting Talos as a lawful deity elsewhere.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
EDIT2: On the question of 'exports', apparently the surface drow of the Forest of Mir are fond of riding 'war ponies of the Tuigan variety' (Drow being quite short - even shorter then regular elves - probably can't ride horses very well). Now, whether we surmise they somehow purchased them (unlikely), or raided for them (likely by behavior, but not by distance), apparently there would be a market for those small horses (I am sure Halflings, and perhaps even gnomes and Dwarves might also be interested in such).
I just chalk-up that odd bit of lore to an ancient Ilythiir portal somewhere near Mir that leads to the Spiderhaunt Peaks, myself (the Ilythiir lands stretched across all of southern Faerūn, so its not all that far-fetched to assume that they went as far east as The Taan back then).
Cool! Thanks.
I'd say they purchase them. Remember, shipping in Toril is advanced, with ship types that in our world allowed for massive and regular trade from India and China to the west being in common use there. There is no reason why ships from Durpar should not carry thousands of horses to Calimshan and beyond, as long as there is a market for such things.
This also gives Semphar a role in trading with Yaimunnahar, which is all to the good. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
Edited by - Icelander on 03 Apr 2012 01:17:22 |
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2012 : 22:15:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I wrote a 35-page term paper based on Joseph Campbell's Hero with a Thousand Faces back in college, which not only got an A+ from two different professors, but I was told by the mythology professor that it was "the finest thing I ever read".
So yeah... I'm vaguely familiar with Joseph Campbell.
-Hey, hey, hey, didn't know. While I don't necessarily agree with his conclusion of some kind of spiritual consciousness that stems from primordial human, his work on detailing step-by-step the recurring themes in myth from across the world is A+.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My point wasn't that it was a canon fact, but rather Teylas appears a helluva lot more like Talos/Gruumsh, then it does the flighty Akadi. Obould's 'chosen' status is questionable, but if you read Horselords, Yamun Kahan's is not (although the word 'chosen' is never used IIRC, the one chapter/scene makes it abundantly clear - he strides out into a horrific thunderstorm with lightening flying all around him, and a 'miracle' occurs).
To me, Gruumsh represents an in-between state of civilization - an aspect of a wargod somewhere between primal hunter (Malar/Herne), and the overly-civilized Helm or Torm. He represents the barbarian - NOT the savage. Strangely, he even has a somewhat noble aspect as well - a true warrior does not go after easy prey, or defenseless targets. A true warrior tries to tear down that which offends the more natural way of things ('soft' men and women, who dwell in cities, and who's only contribution to society is to live off of others like a parasite).
-This can be semi-rectified by using the more esoteric concept that, in D&D, deities are shaped and represent what the believers perceive them be and represent, rather than deities possessing a fixed form/dogma/whatever, that is seen and interpreted differently by different cultures. Akadi, while in Faerūn, may be flighty and generally one of the more timid and less...destructive of the Elemental deities, but in the Hordelands, among the violent Tuigan, he may be more destructive.
-Looking at the real world Mongolians, when I think of the wind and air and such, outside of Tengri, I think of one thing: Kamikaze. Massive typhoons certain show the destructive side of wind. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2013 : 18:56:58
|
Current events on the steppes
What with Mulhorand having decided to swallow up decadent Unther, the vast majority of the military might of Mulhorand is engaged to the west. Not only are they still fighting the forces of Free Unther, ably aided by several factions of the Cult of the Dragon, the Zhentarim, the Banites of Mourktar and (covertly) the Red Wizards of Thay, they must also dedicate vast resources to fighting the guerilla forces of those Untherites in the conquered territories who do not want to live under the Pharoah.
In addition, the Mulhorandi are striving to justify their invasion on the grounds that they are providing Unther with order and justice and the Untheri people with better lives. This makes it extremely important that they not only pay for what supplies their own forces consume in Unther, but also that they transport massive quantities of food to their conquered territories in Unther in order that they might feed their newly acquired temple slaves and so that any freeman left might be able to find food to buy for the wages they are paid by the Mulhorandi forces.
This means that Mulhorand is probably making demands on Murghom for extra foodstuffs, plenty of horses and cavalry to serve in the war.
It would appear, then, that for the Red Wizards of Thay, it would serve several purposes if the Commani and Khassidi could be induced to raid Murghom.
Those tribes reject Yaimmunnahar and have a lot of young warriors eager to test their mettle (and earn something to relieve the misery of existence as herdsmen on poor land).
At minimum, individual Red Wizards ought to pay suspectible khans bribes to get them to direct their raids against northern Murghom instead of the Golden Way. At best, it might be possible to get Chanar Ong Khan to invade Murghom by following the River Murhom south through the High Valley.
A Murghom fighting for its life won't send supplies, horses or soldiers to their overlords in Mulhorand, which is beneficial to the Thayans. And a Commani or Khassidi kingdom where Murghom used to be would weaken Mulhorand and provide a potential foothold for Red Wizard enclaves and all sorts of schemes in traditionally Mulhorandi areas. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
Edited by - Icelander on 12 Aug 2013 18:57:27 |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 20:56:13
|
| How do you feel about Semphar's strength in the area? I picture them far stronger after the Horde. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 21:38:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
How do you feel about Semphar's strength in the area? I picture them far stronger after the Horde.
I view Semphar as effectively independent of Yaimunnahar* and therefore most likely to be securely allied to that nation. As part of the political machinations that Abu Bakr engaged in to win back secure tenacy of his throne, I imagine that a few Tuigan noyans have gotten estates in Semphar and joined the aristocracy there and a rather higher number of respected warriors among them have attained Semphar's equivalent of knighthood.
Semphar has thus had the advantage of veteran Tuigan officers to rectify the errors of doctrine and training among their cavalry. Their infantry probably remains below par, but they have mages and artillery that, properly deployed, can significantly impact battles.
On the other hand, Semphar was conquered during the Horde and had to pay ruinous tribute. And the emergence of Solon as a power and then the collapse of Ra-Khati and (partially at least) Khazari into undead-haunted wastelands will have ruined most of their traditional trade to the east.
I view them as being shrewdly growing in wealth, power and influence with the aid of Yaimunnahar, but in 1373 DR they probably have no realistic way to aid Murghom, even if they were to wish such a thing. There's a lot of difference about an army adequate for home defence and the surplus wealth, foodstuffs and transport capacity to be able to project power over a long logistics tail.
Of course, if Murghom were to abandon all trust issues and help ship them over the Gbor Nor and then reliably feed them, even when Murghomi civilians may be starving, it would be another question. But that's politically almost impossible.
Not to mention that it would not be to the advantage of Semphar. Let the Commani and Khassidi overrun Murghom. They won't stay forever, because they are raiders who refuse to abandon their traditional ways. All that will happen is that Mulhorandi loses power and prestige, Murghom becomes a shadow of its former self and can no longer threathen Semphar and with properly shrewd maneuverings, there is a possibility that Semphar can quietly assist ambitious nobles friendly to Semphar in laying claim to their own private fiefdoms in formerly-unified Murghom, once the Taangan have left.
Zindalankh ought really be an emirate that looks east, not west to Mulhorand. The same might be said of Port Ghaast. And if the Emirs of Zinkalankh and Port Ghaast should happen to grant trading concessions to Semphari merchants while simultaneously taxing (through fast rakers on the Gbor Nor) Mulhorandi ones, well, that's Mulhorand's headache. One that they will have a hard time doing anything about, with north and northwest Murghom belonging to nomadic bands of raiding Taangan.
*Because the 3e FRCS flat-out states that they are not subject to a foreign power. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
|
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2013 : 23:13:20
|
| I agree...playing to the strength of absorbed warriors would be best for Semphar. I picture them emerging as an area power eventually if they work toward close ties with the successors of the Horde...while also making sure they don't become a satrap nation. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Yaimunnahar and the Taangan in 1373 DR
