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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 05:58:17
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Related to this, I've been trying to spot the equator and the tropics.
I understand that the equator passes just south of the published Maztica map and somewhere in the north of Zakhara.
On the other hand, I'm having a lot of trouble finding large enough map to help me understand where precisely it passes through everywhere and what the latitudes of some places are. It doesn't help that the largest maps I have and the only ones to link different settings together come without any scale on them, so I don't know if there are 20 miles or 200 hundred between different places.
What's the latitude, approximately, of the Council Hills in the Eastern Shaar? Of Reth in the Vilhon Reach and Messemprar in Unther? Or Heldepan in Durpar? Orvyltar in Ulgarth?
Let alone such places as the southernmost tip of the Kara-Turan continent, the one where we're assuming an Indian-esque culture might exist. What's the latitude there? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 06:05:29
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I show the equator HERE.
Ignore Greyhawk and Xendrik - that was from another project. The top and bottom still represent the two poles, so the equator should be accurate regardless. The width should also be accurate - the world is slightly larger then Earth (I did the math awhile back - I believe the percentage was in Ed's thread). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2012 06:07:25 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 06:06:15
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To Icelander and Mark: The differing habitats and terrains for dromedaries and bactrian camels are (iirc) very RW-based (which would make sense)... and the whole discussion of elephants in the Realms has been fascinating. What's your take on Realmsian Heffalumps, then? And Tiggers, for that matter... or is Tigger a unique creature? For that matter, is the Heffalump a unique creature? Sorry; I'm feeling rather whimsical right now, because I'm tired and really need to go to sleep, but don't really want to do so... but I'll go now, before I get any sillier. Still, I am interested in what you have to say... the Tigger would have a "bounce" special attack, and a laugh that causes confusion on a failed Will save, but I'm not sure about the details for the Heffalump.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 06:09:30
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Oh... hang on... maybe the Heffalumps are the miniature elephants on Bulta... that would explain the mispronunciation... 
Edit: In all seriousness, this is some awesome zoological lore... and I was only being half-silly about the Bultan heffalumps. It would fit...  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 09 Feb 2012 06:11:22 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 06:09:56
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The heffalump is a distant relative of the Sunffleupagus. Both can trace their ancestry back to the 'awakened' elephans of Ayfal.
Big Bird, on the other hand, was a very bad experiment by the Aeriee.
Tiggers originated when the Beastlands came into conjunction with the demi-plane of springs. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2012 06:11:58 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 06:14:42
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| The demi-plane of springs... I may have to use that... but anyway, my apologies for interrupting your scholarly discussion with my silliness... which now doesn't seem quite so silly... but then, we have the Jabberwock, Bandersnatch, and Jubjub Bird, so why not Tiggers and Heffalumps? |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 06:16:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I show the equator HERE.
Ignore Greyhawk and Xendrik - that was from another project. The top and bottom still represent the two poles, so the equator should be accurate regardless. The width should also be accurate - the world is slightly larger then Earth (I did the math awhile back - I believe the percentage was in Ed's thread).
Okay, that's nice, but I still don't have any maps where I can easily measure the distance per degree of latitude.
How far would the tropics extend in each direction, approximately? |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 06:22:23
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Oh... maybe it's just me, but I would have associated the Snuffleupagus with the wooly mammoths of the northeastern reaches of Kara-Tur, and Big Bird seems like something more Far-Realm-ish. But I think you're right on the mark with the Tigger origin... so how did they come to the Realms? Well, obviously, they bounced, but when? And all the way from the Beastlands? Or were they ejected when the Demi-Plane of Springs exploded due to internal pressure?
Oh dear, this is getting silly... again, my apologies... I'll try to come up with something less silly for my next visit to this scroll... but the great thing about a fantasy setting is, it can all be made to work together. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 06:25:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
To Icelander and Mark: The differing habitats and terrains for dromedaries and bactrian camels are (iirc) very RW-based (which would make sense)...
Well, the distribution of the camels are real-world based, except in the strange abberation of having exclusively dromedaries on the Plain of Horses.
That makes little or no sense. They can't cope with the cold up there and given that you already have 'bactrian' camels from the western part of the Spice Road and the Silk Road, why would you bother to transport a species half-way across the world in order to have a far inferior one for the climate?
The Quoya Desert, in real world terms, ought to be home to 'bactrian' camels. There is no plausible area for short-haired dromedaries to come from anywhere near the Plain of Horses. You'd have to ship them from Zakhara or somewhere close to there. At best, they could live on the Kokaha steppes and even that is debatable. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 06:33:11
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And then I found this post in another room on my way out of the Keep...
quote:
Originally posted by Arcanus
The Realms needs an injection of humour IMO. Dark and sinister is all well and good but a good belly laugh or chuckle really makes a difference.
And I'll try to stay serious for the rest of this post. I was thinking about your post earlier about Zakharan centaurs... are they camel-centaurs? The Greyhawk desert centaur (originally from Dungeon #103, I believe) was a standard horse-human hybrid form, but it would be more interesting if Zakharan centaurs were different. I have none of my 2E (and hence Zakharan) lore anywhere within reach, so I can't check this easily before posting. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 06:37:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Well, the distribution of the camels are real-world based, except in the strange abberation of having exclusively dromedaries on the Plain of Horses.
That makes little or no sense. They can't cope with the cold up there and given that you already have 'bactrian' camels from the western part of the Spice Road and the Silk Road, why would you bother to transport a species half-way across the world in order to have a far inferior one for the climate?
The Quoya Desert, in real world terms, ought to be home to 'bactrian' camels. There is no plausible area for short-haired dromedaries to come from anywhere near the Plain of Horses. You'd have to ship them from Zakhara or somewhere close to there. At best, they could live on the Kokaha steppes and even that is debatable.
So perhaps the dromedaries of the Plain of Horses are native to that region? It's no worse than the duplicated human cultures in Anauroch, Calimshan, and Zakhara... and Toril is riddled with portals; perhaps every once in a while, a herd of dromedaries wanders through a portal to the Plain of Horses, to initiate (the first time) and sustain (later) the dromedary population there. Just a thought.
Edit: And now I'm turning in for the night; I have to be at work in seven hours, and keeping my silliness in check is becoming too much. Hopefully I've given you something logical with this latest post... and I'm still interested in your further thoughts on my sillier contributions. G'night. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 09 Feb 2012 06:43:59 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 14:29:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The heffalump is a distant relative of the Sunffleupagus. Both can trace their ancestry back to the 'awakened' elephans of Ayfal.
Big Bird, on the other hand, was a very bad experiment by the Aeriee.
Tiggers originated when the Beastlands came into conjunction with the demi-plane of springs.
The Cookie Monster was a Luiren halfling wizard experiment gone wrong, and is generally why halfling wizards are frowned upon in their society.
The Count was an autistic gnome engineer from Lantan (reknowned for his fascination with numbers and little functionality with anything else) who had a run-in with a vampire. Said vampire could not bear to see such simple genius disappear from the world and turned the man.
Bert and Ernie? Well, some mysteries are best left undelved. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 14:39:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
You've put a lot of thought into this. Very impressive.
Not yet, at any rate. I still have some trouble with visualising the fauna of each region of the Realms.
The ranges of monsters that fit into the ecology is another thing I'd like to know more about. After all, it makes sense that different monsters inhabit different regions of the Realms and while abberations exist in the form of far-roaming or gated-in critters, you ought to be able to say 'to hunt the wild [insert monster], you need to go to the [insert geographical area, preferably remote]'.
I know giant owlbears used to live in Cormanthor, so it's likely that normal owlbears do too. But what about other monsters? What are the most common 'monstrous animals', monsters numerous enough to have a clearly defined role in the ecology and a noticable impact? Where do they range?
Elminster's Ecologies were a lot of help for this, actually, but that leaves me pretty much in the dark for places like Chondath, Chessenta, Unther, Mulhorand, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
As for the Methwood, and bearing in mind that it's been a while since I've read Old Empires, I'd go with a forest elephant, rather than a Shaaran elephant. Whether they're from Chult or Kara-tur I leave up to you, but I will suggest a reason: Gilgeam did it. He wanted to build the Methwood into a private hunting preserve, so populated it with animals that would be interesting for him to hunt. He tried originally with Shaaran elephants, but they didn't do well in the forest, so he got some elephants that would.
Love this idea!
Obviously, Gilgeam stocked the Methwood to be his own private hunting reserve. It makes perfect sense and it adds to the adventuring possibilities! I would like to hear suggestions of cool animals or animalistic monsters that he could have stocked it with.
I've decided to make Mulhorandi elephants descendants of Imaskari stock, taken from the east a long, long time ago. Being bred for size in pharaonic captivity has made them larger than most Kara-Turan elephants and they are almost as big as Shaaran ones, but easier to train. It makes sense, if they are a national symbol, for them to be something of which Mulhorand can be proud.
Durpar and Ulgarth have Kara-Turan elephants available, used for heavy labour and occasionally for warfare. However, elephants are not as common there as they are south of the Yehimals, in the Sempadan and beyond, in the Indian-esque regions on the coast of the Malatran subcontinent.
The Shining Lands, of course, also have Shaaran elephants. Estagund and Var sometimes buy Durpari elephants to use for labour, as the Shaaran ones are so intransigent. The two species are different enough so that they cannot interbreed without magic, however, so they have not managed to come up with a cross-breed.
The elephants in the Methwood are Durpari ones, I think. In the thousand+ years since Gilgeam got them, they'll have had time to grow slightly smaller on average than most Kara-Turan beasts, but are still basically the same breed.
It also could be that where the Mulhorandi (and by that I mean the people who settled Mulhorand and Unther) came from (i.e. the world they were stolen from) originally had elephants, and the Imaskari stole them over as wonderful aids for their new servants. Might also be where the lions and tigers of Mulhorand came from (I can see the Imaskari using such animals like the Romans did... guards or entertainment). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 15:14:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
To Icelander and Mark: The differing habitats and terrains for dromedaries and bactrian camels are (iirc) very RW-based (which would make sense)...
Well, the distribution of the camels are real-world based, except in the strange abberation of having exclusively dromedaries on the Plain of Horses.
That makes little or no sense. They can't cope with the cold up there and given that you already have 'bactrian' camels from the western part of the Spice Road and the Silk Road, why would you bother to transport a species half-way across the world in order to have a far inferior one for the climate?
The Quoya Desert, in real world terms, ought to be home to 'bactrian' camels. There is no plausible area for short-haired dromedaries to come from anywhere near the Plain of Horses. You'd have to ship them from Zakhara or somewhere close to there. At best, they could live on the Kokaha steppes and even that is debatable.
The Zakharans had the 'improved' version, and brought them with them when they migrated north thousands of years ago (through the Utter East). The other variant was probably split-off from the main strain (the FR proto-camel), tens of thousands of years agon, before the sundering (when the proto-continent split apart), and has adapted to the colder steppes.
However, I don't think the steppes were always so cold; I believe they were verdant during the Imaskari empire (the Quoya didn't exist then). Ergo, since the Tuigan emigrated from the east (they are of the aboriginal Oriental FR stock, not of the same blood as the Shou), then I have to assume the camels came with them, from the tundra-region of northern K-T.
FR camels are NOT Earth camels - the names given are the closest approximations. Even if they originated there (on Earth), they have had hundreds of generations to evolve to the new conditions (and it has been proven animals 'evolve' within a mere generation or two).
Which brings me to my new point: Gates (portals). Between the Hordelands and both other worlds and other continents (like Zakhara). More then likely, there are camels in northern Katashaka as well. Given the magical nature of the setting, not to mention the MAIN PREMISE of the setting (gates to everywhere, ie, The Forgotten Realms) - why is it so hard to picture any of this?
And like I said, neither the Quoya or Anauroch deserts existed at the time of Imaskar - the camels in both those regions were imported from elsewhere (see some of my theories regarding Zakhara and the Scattering of Fate - a canon RSE from Al-Qadim).
And I once tried to do an over-history of the Hordelands, which is almost impossible, because of the sheer mount of conflicting lore. The region was affected by fluff from the 3 surrounding major settings, and it doesn't jell all that well. On the other hand, Snowblood did a lot of my work for me, and he gave me permission to do a '2.0' version of his Imaskar Netbook, which was interrupted by my personal tragedy. I hope to get back to that soon - a think a joint-effort on our part would turn out awesome.
Anyhow, the Imaskari were everywhere (planes and other worlds), so any weirdness in their territory concerning 'flora & fauna' should just be chalked up to who they were. They also got at least some of their magical lore from The Fey (see Bruce Cordell's Darkvision), and the Fey were active in the region (going by things in Mark Sehestedt's Frostfell), which leads me to believe the 'planer boundaries' are weaker in the Hordelands then elsewhere.
I think the entire weave has these 'holes' where the veil (fabric of The Weave) is thinnest, but in the Hordelands they are either more numerous, or the entire region is one gigantic 'weak spot' (which could be due to damage caused by Imaskari magic over time). Thus, that area is the perfect 'entry point' for many, many species into the Realms.
All IMHO, of course.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2012 15:16:54 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 15:23:17
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Also, I believe Toril has a greater axial tilt, which would help explain a few things. On the other hand, once I 'did the math' and came up with that map (minus GH and Xendrik), it's easy to see that the poles are indeed pretty damn far from Faerun-proper, which actually better-explains those same things.
If Toril is the size of Earth, then we need the increased Tilt, but if it is greater (Ed posted the % in his thread), then we do not need that at all. This has to do with climate (and I am FAR from an expert), and Toril has also undergone a series of 'little Iceages', just like our RW (its just coming out of one now - Vassa and Damara are recent additions being released from the glacier).
So between magic, Tear Falls, Elven shenanigans, Divine calamities, 'cosmic conjunctions', etc - Toril's climate isn't really based on a RW model at all. For instance, the Red Wizards grew citrus fruit, way up on their plateaus - they did so using magic.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Bert and Ernie? Well, some mysteries are best left undelved.
Classic |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2012 18:09:46 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 17:15:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Zakharans had the 'improved' version, and brought them with them when they migrated north thousands of years ago (through the Utter East).
The Zakharan camels greatly resemble Earth's dromedaries. As such, they will be of little use anywhere that is much colder than southern Spain. Anywhere where it snows and the kindest thing you can do is kill them. They could survive in captivity, but they could not do useful work and it would rapidly exhaust them to try.
As such, it is possible that the Zakharans who later became Mujhari* had camels with them, but such camels would not be taken into mountains, nor would they be used even in temperate climes, if there were cold winters.
*And contributed to the stock of the Durpari, though I personally believe that the Durpari were originally related to the Ulgarth and Mar, but mixed freely with traders from Zakhara and refugees from Imaskar (both High Imaskari and slaves of the same blood that now makes up Khazari). In essence, I place the Scattering of Fate event in Murghom and Semphar after the fall of Imaskar, with the arrived Zakharans being able to take over nearly depopulated lands without a strong authority. Murghom then mixed with the remnants of Imaskari Mulan slaves, with the Mujhari who made up Semphar instead mixing with surviving Imaskari and the proto-Khazari. This explains the 'Persian' vibe of Semphar, as contrasted with the much more 'Arabian'/Zakharan feel of Murghom.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The other variant was probably split-off from the main strain (the FR proto-camel), tens of thousands of years agon, before the sundering (when the proto-continent split apart), and has adapted to the colder steppes.
However, I don't think the steppes were always so cold; I believe they were verdant during the Imaskari empire (the Quoya didn't exist then). Ergo, since the Tuigan emigrated from the east (they are of the aboriginal Oriental FR stock, not of the same blood as the Shou), then I have to assume the camels came with them, from the tundra-region of northern K-T.
The tundra-region of northern Kara-Tur is an excellent source for camels in the area, if only they'd be polite enough to match between Kara-Tur and Hordelands.
The anomaly of the Plain of Horses throws a bit of a wrench into matters.
I have a theory, though, which will be revealed at the end of the post.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
FR camels are NOT Earth camels - the names given are the closest approximations. Even if they originated there (on Earth), they have had hundreds of generations to evolve to the new conditions (and it has been proven animals 'evolve' within a mere generation or two).
Regardless of whether or not they are Earth-camels, both the Lands of Fate and the Hordelands supplement make a point of providing enough information about their respective types of camel so that one can conclude that they have the same climatic tolerances (and, in fact, are identical in all respects to the Earth versions).
The single-humped dromedaries of the Plain of Horses, however, cannot be related to the Zakharan species. Despite the superficial similarity of the number of humps, it is utterly impossible that it is a short-haired creature adapted to extreme heat.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Which brings me to my new point: Gates (portals). Between the Hordelands and both other worlds and other continents (like Zakhara). More then likely, there are camels in northern Katashaka as well. Given the magical nature of the setting, not to mention the MAIN PREMISE of the setting (gates to everywhere, ie, The Forgotten Realms) - why is it so hard to picture any of this?
It is not hard at all. Gates provide an excellent reason for species to have spread to the unlikeliest of places. After all, even without gates, the largest population of wild camels that exists on our Earth is in Australia, not exactly close to their historical range.
However, what gates do not do is enable a species adapted for hot deserts to outcompete a species adapted to cold steppes, wastes and mountains on that territory. Considering that 'bactrian' camels exist in the Hordelands, there is no possibility that a population of Zakharan dromedaries could have time to evolve to adapt to their new and very different climate. In the wild, the 'bactrian' camels would outcompete them easily, while as domestic animals, the 'bactrian' camels would be so superior that any tribe that stubbornly tried to use gated-in Zakharan camels would be at a fearsome disadvantage compared to those who prefered the local variety.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And like I said, neither the Quoya or Anauroch deserts existed at the time of Imaskar - the camels in both those regions were imported from elsewhere (see some of my theories regarding Zakhara and the Scattering of Fate - a canon RSE from Al-Qadim).
And I once tried to do an over-history of the Hordelands, which is almost impossible, because of the sheer mount of conflicting lore. The region was affected by fluff from the 3 surrounding major settings, and it doesn't jell all that well. On the other hand, Snowblood did a lot of my work for me, and he gave me permission to do a '2.0' version of his Imaskar Netbook, which was interrupted by my personal tragedy. I hope to get back to that soon - a think a joint-effort on our part would turn out awesome.
Anyhow, the Imaskari were everywhere (planes and other worlds), so any weirdness in their territory concerning 'flora & fauna' should just be chalked up to who they were. They also got at least some of their magical lore from The Fey (see Bruce Cordell's Darkvision), and the Fey were active in the region (going by things in Mark Sehestedt's Frostfell), which leads me to believe the 'planer boundaries' are weaker in the Hordelands then elsewhere.
I think the entire weave has these 'holes' where the veil (fabric of The Weave) is thinnest, but in the Hordelands they are either more numerous, or the entire region is one gigantic 'weak spot' (which could be due to damage caused by Imaskari magic over time). Thus, that area is the perfect 'entry point' for many, many species into the Realms.
All IMHO, of course.
I'm mentally working through the contradictions in the lore in the area myself, trying to make things work. It's fun and considering that I've got PCs planning to go to Murghom and Semphar, as well as negotiate a regular caravan run over to Shou Lung, it's going to be needed soon enough.
As for camels, specifically, here is my grand unified theory.
Now, the Zakharan kind may be native to there and may have a counterpart on Katashka from the pre-Sundering days. Furthermore, the Scattering of Fate might have spread them to almost anywhere, but in order for them to survive there, certain climatic factors have to be present. Heat, for one.
If I find anything in the Murghom and Semphar material that suggests the existence of single-humped dromedaries there, I'll explain them as Zakharan camels brought there by the Scattering of Fate. If I find nothing of the sort, I'll simply state that they use the two-humped 'bactrian' camel like their neighbours. More than likely, both types exist there, with one being used on level ground and the other in the mountains.
The 'bactrian' camels are native to the mountainous Katakora tundra and the surrounding areas. Those were always mountains and therefore always cold.
Finallly, a third species of camel exists in the Forgotten Realms. It is fully as distinct from the Zakharan dromedary as the 'bactrian'* one, having come from the Ama basin with the original Tuigan. Those would have shaggy hair, but be adapted for more level ground than the higher-elevation Katakoro camels. They would resemble F1 Camel hybrids, but be a species that breeds true.
*I would prefer that it be called a Khazari or Katakoro camel. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 18:22:31
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I like that, except I'd just use the simpler Guge Camel (Guge being a fallen survivor state, featured prominently on the back cover of the Fonstad FRA). You could also say 'Tabottan' camel, but Tabot uses lamas (both kinds  ).
I meant to suggest that as well - a Toril-specific hybrid. Good call.
And for some bizarre reason, my mind just jumped to the image of a bizarre, mountain-climbing elephant (large, clawed toes, more sinuous, with a trunk that helps in this by wrapping around outcroppings to pull itself along). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 18:52:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I like that, except I'd just use the simpler Guge Camel (Guge being a fallen survivor state, featured prominently on the back cover of the Fonstad FRA). You could also say 'Tabottan' camel, but Tabot uses lamas (both kinds ).
Likely enough, Khazari/Guge/Katakoro/Ra-Khati are all used by someone for the sub-species. The Yehimals have apparently seperated the camelids of Tabot and the Katakoro regions for a long, long time, giving them time evolve into lamas and camels.
Incidentally, this suggests that the similar peoples, religions and cultures are not caused by direct physical travel, otherwise you'd not see their camelids diverging so greatly. This is not problematic, as it is not at all easy to pass the Yehimals.
It is very likely that the powerful lamas have gates and/or can travel between mountaintops under their own power. Thus, humans travelled between Ra-Khati and Tabot (and kept fairly direct touch, explaining how their cultures are so similar, but the intervening Shou Lung areas merely have some influences) without taking animals with them, having no need for them.
I would say that there exist or have existed a fair number of temples in both Tabot and Ra-Khati that have interdimensional pathways between them. Likely learnt from the Imaskari. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 19:03:44
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I just thought it was a simpler (shorter) word, is all.
There is also the 'Coombe' giant, although we don't get any info (on the term) beyond that's what they are called. I have used this as a general term for all K-T giants (which are like smarter versions of hill giants - more like less-volatile ogres). I liken them to the Seareach giants of the Thomas Covenant novels (which were 'stolen' by SJ and renamed 'Spacesea Giants').
So we could borrow and extend that - call them Coombe Camels (with Coombe being our FR version of 'Oriental').
Getting back to giants - I could see the K-T (Coombe) giants herding very large creatures like elephants, the way humans herd cattle. Can you picture a giant milking an elephant? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2012 19:05:22 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 19:26:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
[
Well, the distribution of the camels are real-world based, except in the strange abberation of having exclusively dromedaries on the Plain of Horses.
That makes little or no sense. They can't cope with the cold up there and given that you already have 'bactrian' camels from the western part of the Spice Road and the Silk Road, why would you bother to transport a species half-way across the world in order to have a far inferior one for the climate?
The Quoya Desert, in real world terms, ought to be home to 'bactrian' camels. There is no plausible area for short-haired dromedaries to come from anywhere near the Plain of Horses. You'd have to ship them from Zakhara or somewhere close to there. At best, they could live on the Kokaha steppes and even that is debatable.
I would not be so sure the dromedaries did not make it there on their own. The camel or at least its ancestor is actually North American. All camels have evolved from a camel that ranged in North America 37 million years ago. Research is indicating that these camels were just as environmentally resilient as their progeny. These guys are the common ancestor to camels and llamas.
So really having the dromedarie up north is not that big of a deal. Biologists are constantly surprised at the organisms found in ecosystems. Remember Dromedaries are commonly found in SOME deserts that sink below freezing at night.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 09 Feb 2012 19:26:58 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 19:36:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
I would not be so sure the dromedaries did not make it there on their own. The camel or at least its ancestor is actually North American. All camels have evolved from a camel that ranged in North America 37 million years ago. Research is indicating that these camels were just as environmentally resilient as their progeny. These guys are the common ancestor to camels and llamas.
So really having the dromedarie up north is not that big of a deal. Biologists are constantly surprised at the organisms found in ecosystems. Remember Dromedaries are commonly found in SOME deserts that sink below freezing at night.
I realise that the ancenstor of the camel is North American. On the other hand, that ancestor did not resemble the dromedary (nor did it resemble the bactrian camel, for that matter). Evolved for a totally different climate.
So, I don't have a problem with something from a far far away making it to the northern Plain of Horses. What I did mind was calling it the dromedary, since that implies, among other things, long, thin legs (which are not nice in the cold).
Assuming that it is not a dromedary, but just resembles it in having one hump, is much better. It might even be the extinct North American version of the camel, which ought to be more cold resistant. |
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Wolfhound75
Learned Scribe
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 19:44:14
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Some additional thoughts and actual canon commentary on Camels in Zakhara:
I'm sure you guys know this but Centaur, Desert appears in the al-Qadim Monstrous Compendium. There was no variant ever given that I'm aware of for a Camel-based Centaur but IMO it would make a very interesting encounter.
Probably putting too much RL into this but I'm of the opinion that elephants found in Zakhara would be more of the RL Indian type rather than the African type based on the supposition of the continental split and the relative distance & isolation of Katashaka. Also they would be readily available, through trade, more easily from the Malatra area and there are known trade links given in various printed sources.
As for camels, again with too much RL influence probably, every "middle-east" type desert I've been to has had the single-humped variety. That having been said, I spent time in Kazakhstan which is considerably more mountainous than Iraq/Kuwait/Saudi Arabia. The camels they had there were definately the bactrian type. No doubt about it. The Al Qadim Monstrous Compendium (AQMC) also lists four types of camels - Desert, Mountain, Racing, & War as common animals.
In support of this the AQMC states:
quote:
Cut & Paste from Al-Qadim Monstrous Compendium
Desert, racing, and war camels are all of the one-hump variety; mountain camels have two humps.
Desert Camel
With their wide, padded feet and fat-rich, watery humps, desert camels are ideal mounts for traveling through the wastes. They are slow but steady animals, capable of taking heavy loads through difficult climates and terrain. They sway more and have a longer, more rolling gait than horses.
Mountain Camel
Mountain camels are common in the hills and mountains where they serve as pack animals. They are not useful in the desert.
Due to both camel types being included in the AQMC, it follows logically that both types are found in Zakhara. IMO the dromendary type would be much more prevalent given the terrain but, depending on location, it's not unlikely to encounter the bactrian type either.
A fifth type, Camel of the Pearl (IMO a magical beast), is Gargantuan-sized (30' tall), much more intelligent (13-14), and listed as "...gigantic, positively elephantine animals...." (The picture shows a dromendary-type camel for this creature.)
On to speculation. Perhaps the more northern variety found on the planes is some sort of llama-like creature that evolved a hump for some purpose? A look at their feet should be a telling measure because of the difference in their foot/hoof structure. Too bad we can't see them IRL. Also interesting to note, Bolivian llamas look greatly like a very shaggy bactrian type camel, complete with what appears to be two small humps.
Interesting discussion!
Good Hunting!
EDIT: add boldface |
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"If at first you do succeed, you must've rolled a natural 20!" |
Edited by - Wolfhound75 on 09 Feb 2012 19:58:36 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 20:02:06
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To summarise, three types of camels are known on Toril.
There is the Zakharan dromedary, which is the slightest built of them all and who is distinguished by his long legs compared to the body, as well as the short hairs. Colour ranges from white to black, with brown, tan, spotted and others being possible. By far the most common colour is golden, however. The fastest camel and the only one to be routinely taught to charge as part of cavalry. It may have counter-parts over the Trackless Sea, having been seperated from them in the Sundering. A variety of it also exists in Calimshan and in lesser numbers it can be found in the Utter East, the Shining Lands and Murghom and Semphar, having been spread there by trade (or the Scattering of Fate).
Then there is the Katakoro (Khazari/Guge/Ra-Khati/Imaskari) camel. This is a shaggy, low-set beast that is on average half against as heavy as a Zakharan dromedary. They have two humps instead of one and are far more tolerant of both cold and high altitudes than Zakharan dromedaries ever are. Most common colour is beige and there is less variation in colouring than with the Zakharan camels. Unsuitable for cavalry.
The third is the Ama camel. These may have crossed over to the Ama basin in some unimaginably antediluvian era before the Sundering and even share ancestors with camelids across the far western seas or they may be native to the Kara-Turan tundra. They are single-humped and therefore often called dromedaries by Western sages, but they have nothing in common with the Zakharan dromedaries, being their own species. They are large, even larger than Katakoro camels, and while they are not as shaggy, their thick fat layer is sufficient to make them even more tolerant to cold than their mountainous cousins. In temperament, they are the most placid of the camels, but they are not quick to learn new things. While not limber, their long and sturdy legs can carry them at a fast clip over very long distances. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Feb 2012 : 20:05:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
I'm sure you guys know this but Centaur, Desert appears in the al-Qadim Monstrous Compendium. There was no variant ever given that I'm aware of for a Camel-based Centaur but IMO it would make a very interesting encounter.
Another thread had me thinking about those centaurs.
Here was my take - Centaurs aren't natural... at least, not originally. The first centaurs were created by the Fey, and were actually Chevall (I hypothesize all fey can change shape, and this is just one variation). When 'detached' too long from the Fewild, Fey tend to lose their abilities, and shape-shifting is usually the first to go. Ergo, Centaurs are just 'stuck' Chevall descendents.
The other thread had me think along a different line - what if the first centaurs were instead created from the children of the Fey - the Elves. They perform some glamour (fairy magic) and turn willing(?) participants into the perfect cavalry.
Now fast-forward thousands upon thousands of years, when the Imaskari encountered (and dealt with) the Fey. Perhaps part of the knowledge they gained was how to create these hybrids. I would not put it past the Imaskari to experiment on 'lesser beings', and they might have thought it fun to merge the Horse barbarians with their mounts.
The other variant comes from Zakhara, and similar lines of reasoning could apply. Maybe the Mujhein that emigrated from Zakhara learned things from the Fey before they entered the Raurin region - I assume some sort of Fey/genie connection here (haven't worked that part out).
So two groups have interacted with the Imaskari (one subjugated, the other an ancestor), and both groups have these non-sylvan (fey) centaurs. Could be coincidence, but then again.... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Feb 2012 20:10:17 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 03:08:06
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I've found that tigers exist in the Shining South, the Hordelands and up to Rashemen (snow tigers). They are also all over the Malatran subcontinent, naturally. This more or less fits the real world distribution (with the Shining South being a wild card that does not correspond closely to any real world region, but it is tropical and/or sub-tropical, as well as having lots of dense jungly and swampy terrain, so it's not a stretch that they'd have them.
I don't know about Zakhara. I'll look through the material, but does anyone remember about big cats there?
Lions, meanwhile, exist in the Gulthmere, Shining Plains and the Shaar, as well as possibly in Chult, Tashalar and thereabouts. As for Serpentes, it could be either lions, tigers, both or neither. I couldn't find out either way.
What do the scribes think? Obviously, lions won't live in thick jungles, but they could live around them. Tigers could have made it there from the Shining South, as well, but the mountains around Halruua could have been enough to stop them. It's a judgment call.
Given the close connection between the northern Vilhon and lions, I had originally had some doubts about tigers in the Chondalwood. Seemed... cheating, somehow. Having found out in the 2e Vilhon Reach supplements that the area was inudated with saber-toothed tigers in the 600s DR, I discover to my joy that the reference to 'tigers' in the 3e Chondalwood probably refers to this saber-toothed big cat. Which isn't actually a tiger, but chronicles of the Realms aren't biologists and if it stalks like a tiger, eats you like a tiger and growls like a tiger, it's much too close to a tiger (and you) for comfort.
So I'm happy to place a population of saber-toothed tigers in the Chondalwood. How they got there, I don't know and neither does the Vilhon Reach supplement. My money would be on some divine politics involving Nobanion, Malar and a lord of saber-toothed cats. In any event, they are aggressive and dangerous, having no compunctions about attacking humans, even armed humans. On the Shaar itself, they generally stay close to the Chondalwood, as lions defend their territory from them fiercely and lions travel in prides, while the saber cats hunt singly or in family groups.
History indicates that they used to hunt in prides (and thus, wouldn't live in a forest), but perhaps that ended when Nobanion defeated their lord? Just speculation. The wemics might know, of course. |
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Eladrinstar
Learned Scribe
USA
196 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 04:23:25
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| One of the Uthgardt Beast Totems is a Red Tiger, so I guess there is a species of tiger up there as well. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 06:17:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Eladrinstar
One of the Uthgardt Beast Totems is a Red Tiger, so I guess there is a species of tiger up there as well.
Actually, the old The North boxed set confirms that an agile species of red tiger makes it's home in many of the northern mountainous regions. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 15:46:24
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The Orc Ranger/Assasin from Sentinelspire came from northern Narfel (what I call the 'frozenfens' region) IIRC, and he had a tiger companion. My assumption is that this is common amongst those tribes.
I recall labeling it a 'Steppe Tiger', but I don't know at this point if I just named it that, or I found that name somehere in canon. I assume they are common in the The Endless Wastes (NW part of The Taan), and are distantly related to the Red Tigers of The North (I would go so far as to say they were two variants of one species - use the same stats). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Feb 2012 15:46:43 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 16:09:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And I once tried to do an over-history of the Hordelands, which is almost impossible, because of the sheer mount of conflicting lore. The region was affected by fluff from the 3 surrounding major settings, and it doesn't jell all that well.
You can say that again. I remember trying to sort some of that out myself as concerns Raumathar and Imaskar and the maps they showed of those empires... thinking the hordelands would be the ultimate resource, but it just didn't add up with some of what was said in other products. Of course, the question that kind of arises is how fluid were the borders of Raumathar and Imaskar during their lifespans. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 16:50:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The Orc Ranger/Assasin from Sentinelspire came from northern Narfel (what I call the 'frozenfens' region) IIRC, and he had a tiger companion. My assumption is that this is common amongst those tribes.
I recall labeling it a 'Steppe Tiger', but I don't know at this point if I just named it that, or I found that name somehere in canon. I assume they are common in the The Endless Wastes (NW part of The Taan), and are distantly related to the Red Tigers of The North (I would go so far as to say they were two variants of one species - use the same stats).
Indeed, tigers range from the southernmost tip of Kara-Tur up to the northernmost tip, with only areas of heavy human cultivation being free of them.
While the same stats might do for Red Tigers as the Taan tigers, there is no reason to suppose that they are related in anything but the most distant way. They could have been seperated by the Tearfall or the Sundering, for example. |
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Topic |
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Elephants (And lions and tigers and bears, oh my!)
