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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1361 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2012 :  20:39:32  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I'm starting to think that trying to appeal to the 'old fans' (pre-4e) - like a lot of us are - might be a VERY bad idea. If they do have an established new fanbase with 4e, then I doubt 5e will make very many 'old fans' happy regardless, and all it will do is alienate the new fans, bringing FR to a close.

I say this because I am now of the mind that without a reboot, old fans will never be happy. The ones that don't care how much they spend on new material have already found a new playground. I just don't think they are going to get those people back (I think it is very possible to do so, but I don't think they have the determination to do ALL that it will take).

Maybe its already over, and we are like Bruce Willis in The Sixth Sense.



I'm starting to think this too. I don't mean to insult anyone with this, but the whole 4E vs 5E thing reminds me of my kids fighting over a toy. And in my experience if they don't SHARE, then nobody gets to play.

Personally, I'd rather have a Realms, warts and all, then no Realms at all. Nostalgia is a powerful motivator, heck all of my favorite memories are from the 2E days, but I want a living breathing world that changes and doesn't become stagnant. Did I like 4E? No, I absolutely hated it for the most part, but it did stir the poop pot and give me new things to read and learn.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is: Fans of all editions need to be willing to come to the table and make compromises. It's how win-win negotiation works. Nobody will get everything they want, but if you're willing to work with the other party, both sides should get SOMETHING they want.

If you can't come to the table and share the Realms with others, good and bad, I don't even know why a person would be interested in the Realms anyway. Such behavior goes against everything the shared world stands for.

Again I don't mean to insult anyone with any of this. I just think fans of all editions should work together and support the Realms going forward. If you don't like something about the Realms, chime in and offer specific solutions. I don't know if designers will use suggestions, but maybe we can give them a sounding board on trouble areas to focus on.
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader

USA
2717 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2012 :  20:57:14  Show Profile Send Jeremy Grenemyer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

Again I don't mean to insult anyone with any of this. I just think fans of all editions should work together and support the Realms going forward. If you don't like something about the Realms, chime in and offer specific solutions.
I am not insulted by this. (I don't think any reasonable person could be offended by it.)

I'm very happy you had the courage to step forward and say it.

Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver).

Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 21 Jun 2012 21:00:13
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2693 Posts

Posted - 21 Jun 2012 :  21:14:15  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, as much I dislike the 4e Realms and deem the choice WotC has made in their regards years ago disrespectful towards older customers, I can come to a compromise if that means that I'll get to enjoy the setting again. But, ofc, both pre and post plague Realms fan should do so.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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Entromancer
Senior Scribe

USA
388 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2012 :  00:31:05  Show Profile Send Entromancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd prefer a gradual slide into a Realms more like the older ones instead of a straight retcon.

"...the will is everything. The will to act."--Ra's Al Ghul

"Suffering builds character."--Talia Al Ghul
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2018 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2012 :  00:42:23  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
a compromise

I want all the deities back and no more this deity was really that deity...(this does incldue Helm, Mystra,MAsk, Eilistraee)

I want a new color scheme for the 5e fr map, no more vomit colors.

I also want every trace of POL(Points of Light) removed.
Restore Halruua in some potent form whether its in some long forgotten flying city or they foresaw Mystra's return and time traveled foward to that time( just becuase the rule ofr that spell forbids pcs from going foawrd does not mean as a plot device that a huge group of npcs cant do so)
return the roll of year section in the FRcampaign books
I would love to see the spell plague removed from the lore comepletely, but highly consider my wants on the to be considered list and I'll ber fine with plague staying. ATleast then there would be a chance of atleast some of them being in 5e realms.




why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2012 :  01:34:46  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone

One of my favorites is the hidden Eye Tyrant Realm under or by Cormyr, or what is left of it anyways.

I wonder if there is any connection between them and the Eye Tyrants of Zhentil Keep...
I wondered that too, but from the angle of how they feel about Manshoon enslaving their kind all the time.



I didn't think he was enslaving them, so much as he was making his own deals with them... I seem to recall a scene in Spellfire where even Manny was surprised by beholder actions.

Besides which, I should think it difficult for a spellslinger to enslave someone who could negate their magic. Obviously, it can be done, but it wouldn't be easy.

And let's not forget the "So High A Price" tale from Realms of Infamy. It was made pretty clear, even in that early stage of Manshoon's relationship with his beholder allies... just "who" was calling the shots.

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lowtech
Learned Scribe

USA
315 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2012 :  11:48:08  Show Profile  Visit lowtech's Homepage Send lowtech a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I'm starting to think that trying to appeal to the 'old fans' (pre-4e) - like a lot of us are - might be a VERY bad idea. If they do have an established new fanbase with 4e, then I doubt 5e will make very many 'old fans' happy regardless, and all it will do is alienate the new fans, bringing FR to a close.



Alternative timelines with equal or market-driven support wouldn't alienate anyone....what WOTC would be concerned about is competing against themselves, the suits being concerned (legitimately) about the uncertainties of high-risk, high-reward marketing strategies, and the developers, I suspect, because they simply don't want to do anything with the pre-Spellplague Realms anymore, and are afraid that fan demand may force them to do so if the consumers were allowed to vote with their pocketbooks.
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe

USA
304 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2012 :  12:02:58  Show Profile Send Tarlyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer

And thatís the key point I think people are overlooking: the advancement of a century in the Realms is by far a greater force of change then the Spellplague. When I read through these forums, I donít think enough attention is being given to whether something is a Spellplague-driven change or a time-driven change.


The changes over the century seemed to have hit non-evil aligned nations pretty hard while conveniently missing their evil leaning counter parts. IMO the changes are all very contrived and rather blatantly intended to make FR significantly closer to a PoL setting.

quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
I want less overt organizationsóones that donít have Realms-wide influence and arenít like a fantasy version of the Legion of Doom, I want dungeons and adventures that are smaller scale and encourage/require gamers to know a little something about the world their characters are in (this encourages roleplaying and player buy-in to the setting).


My intention is not just to be disagreeable here. However, I liked the individuals (admittedly they were pretty much all archmages) and organizations with "world" ranging schemes. I used those organizations schemes as subplots often. That was actually one of my larger complaints about the 4e realms. I understand that designers didn't like the old organizations, but they couldn't even come up with their own organizations? Also, most of the organizations were only active highly novelized sections of FR. The South did not receive much attention from any of the movers and shakers. I knew a few groups that didn't like the novel stuff and based campaigns there, which is no necessary because a group can always ignore what they don't like.

Tarlyn Embersun

Edited by - Tarlyn on 22 Jun 2012 12:06:42
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe

USA
304 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2012 :  12:04:50  Show Profile Send Tarlyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by lowtech
the developers, I suspect, because they simply don't want to do anything with the pre-Spellplague Realms anymore, and are afraid that fan demand may force them to do so if the consumers were allowed to vote with their pocketbooks.


+1 That has been my general feelings as well.

Tarlyn Embersun

Edited by - Tarlyn on 22 Jun 2012 12:05:37
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2012 :  12:32:16  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sfdragon

a compromise

I want all the deities back and no more this deity was really that deity...(this does incldue Helm, Mystra,MAsk, Eilistraee)

I want a new color scheme for the 5e fr map, no more vomit colors.

I also want every trace of POL(Points of Light) removed.
Restore Halruua in some potent form whether its in some long forgotten flying city or they foresaw Mystra's return and time traveled foward to that time( just becuase the rule ofr that spell forbids pcs from going foawrd does not mean as a plot device that a huge group of npcs cant do so)
return the roll of year section in the FRcampaign books
I would love to see the spell plague removed from the lore comepletely, but highly consider my wants on the to be considered list and I'll ber fine with plague staying. ATleast then there would be a chance of atleast some of them being in 5e realms.




To be perfectly honest even I was not enthused by the whole Talos is Grummsh thing or the diminishment of the elven pantheon and felt that too many Gods were killed needlessly. But it looks like many will be revived certainly Mystra and helm seems to be likely to be resurrected soon. but bringing them all back seems a bit unrealistic , I think the likes of Tyr and Lathander are gone for good and their replacements are doing a good enough job.
The spell plague is now a part of the realms at most its effects will be mitigated but not entirely eradicated. Other than that I for one would be glad to see the changes you have suggested.
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2018 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2012 :  14:21:16  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tyr and lathander can stay gone and so can Kirasalee( that undead drow bimbo who's name I cant spell)
the others and the combining of others..... bad Idea

Yondalla and chauntea.... should not be the same, there is a difference between fertility and fertilization.

one is crop dusting and the other is reproduction/motherhood.


It would have been more okay with me if they said Yondalla was always Sune, but they didnt

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234

Edited by - sfdragon on 22 Jun 2012 14:52:42
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deserk
Learned Scribe

Norway
96 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2012 :  15:45:04  Show Profile Send deserk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Honestly, the Spellplague trash, is about the most unwelcome thing they could have pulled on us FR fans. It was SO UNNECESSARY for them to kill so much of what the FR fans loved. And personally it has alienated me significantly from FR. I don't see 4E Realms as the legitimate Realms, and many others do neither.

I seriously hope for a complete reboot. I wanted to see an expansion of the Realms, in terms of detail and scope, not a reduction which is basically what 4E is. Destruction of many countries and deities.

FR fans shouldn't need to compromise with people who bastardize the setting. The people who made the mistake are at the fault, not the fans. It is WotC who have the obligation to correct their mistakes.

Seriously, I don't see how FR is going to have a bright future without some serious editing.

I'm personally not going to buy any WotC products at all until they fix the Realms, and I hope I'm not alone in this. I'll rather stick with the Pathfinder books.

It's shameful that WotC can get away with destroying a beloved fantasy setting.

Edited by - deserk on 22 Jun 2012 15:52:24
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
908 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2012 :  16:30:20  Show Profile Send Matt James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So you're view on the Realms is more important than some kid that started reading the books these past couple of years? I don't understand why is has to be an all-or-nothing approach.

quote:
Originally posted by deserk

Honestly, the Spellplague trash, is about the most unwelcome thing they could have pulled on us FR fans. It was SO UNNECESSARY for them to kill so much of what the FR fans loved. And personally it has alienated me significantly from FR. I don't see 4E Realms as the legitimate Realms, and many others do neither.

I seriously hope for a complete reboot. I wanted to see an expansion of the Realms, in terms of detail and scope, not a reduction which is basically what 4E is. Destruction of many countries and deities.

FR fans shouldn't need to compromise with people who bastardize the setting. The people who made the mistake are at the fault, not the fans. It is WotC who have the obligation to correct their mistakes.

Seriously, I don't see how FR is going to have a bright future without some serious editing.

I'm personally not going to buy any WotC products at all until they fix the Realms, and I hope I'm not alone in this. I'll rather stick with the Pathfinder books.

It's shameful that WotC can get away with destroying a beloved fantasy setting.

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Hawkins
Great Reader

USA
2130 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2012 :  16:39:48  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James

So you're view on the Realms is more important than some kid that started reading the books these past couple of years? I don't understand why is has to be an all-or-nothing approach.
While Matt and I don't necessarily agree on the business model that WotC should be using for D&D Next, I do agree with him here. As a rabid fan of the Realms since about 1994 (or 95, I don't exactly remember; wow, is it really pushing 20 years? ), I think that an edition-inclusive Realms is a must going forward. By naming Ed the lead on the D&D Next (I really wish they would just call it D&D 5e) Realms, they have taken an important first step in going the right direction. I just hope that the hire some of the people mentioned in this scroll to help him (as a game designer working on project only 64 pages long, I am beginning to understand just how difficult it would be to do alone).

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14020 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2012 :  17:52:12  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Varl

This sounds like an incredibly tough business to break into then, if no publishing organizations will accept unsolicited material due to liabilities. I guess that's why I'm a gamer and not a writer.
Actually, with the internet and the way things work today, its far easier to get published.

So long as you have talent.

All you need is a following - thousands of idiots do it every day on Youtube. Some of them even get TV shows out of it (at least two I can think of in the past week).

Write the stories, publish them yourself, get the fans, and the publishers will find you. Find what your good at, and get your name out there. Its easier then ever.

And then there are things like Paizo's writing contests....

As for the subject at hand: The 'all or nothing' approach is not a conscious decision... at least not for me. I have absolutely no interest in reading about anything that happens post-plague (or, at least, past 1400 DR or so). I had a helluva time finishing Elminster Must Die, and I have no interest in finishing the story with the next two installments. Thats NOT the setting I became a fan of. It has nothing to do with the writing quality or anything like that - I just find myself uninterested in it. Thats not something I can change my mind about - I have no control over it.

If novels are written in an era I care about, I will read them. If not, then no - there really is no changing my mind about this. If 4e is an 'acquired taste', then I do not wish to waste time acquiring it.

The one exception to this are novels written in manner where you don't even notice the era they take place in - Rich Baker's BotM series is a good example (I liked it). Thats because it took place somewhere we knew next to nothing about, so the changes went completely unnoticed.

Thats not going to happen with Cormyr or Waterdeep - we know those places too well (and I didn't enjoy any 4e+ novels set there - I tried). So unless 5e concentrates ONLY on areas where very little is known, or takes place in the past*, I don't see myself reading 5e novels very much.


*Hopefully the 'open timeline' thing will at least allow me to still enjoy FR by providing stories that take place during the era in which I care about the Realms.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 22 Jun 2012 18:00:54
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2885 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2012 :  18:22:34  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Varl

This sounds like an incredibly tough business to break into then, if no publishing organizations will accept unsolicited material due to liabilities. I guess that's why I'm a gamer and not a writer.


-Only because it's their IP. As long as you have the money, you can find a printing house that will publish original work that you write. There's a whole lot of schlock out there, so you don't even need to have skill; dollars will get you far. WotC decides the direction they want their IP to go, so they have WotC employees do it (via sourcebooks, or novels by guys like Bruce Cordell or Rich Baker, who are/were fully employed with the company) or freelancers that, through whatever means, they reached out to (Ed Greenwood, for example). They come to you; you don't go to them.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

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Apex
Learned Scribe

USA
229 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2012 :  20:18:31  Show Profile  Visit Apex's Homepage Send Apex a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am all for a complete reboot. Possibly to the Gray Box or maybe a decade or two before even. Nothing says that the setting need even change (ie eliminating all that comes later), only that the default timeline would be set somewhere in the 1330-1357 range. There were so many things skipped over that occurred during the early Realms (and stuff that happened right before the Gray Box) that could get (and deserve) detailed treatment (whether in novel or supplement form). And for anyone that likes the less lore dependent 4E Realms, nothing would stop them from utilizing that as well.

The reality is that any new (and by new I mean after the reboot takes place) will likely fall into the rebooted Realms (just like most new gamers today fall into the 4E Realms), while WoTC would likely gain back a significant number of us long time Realms fans (many of whom are in our peak earning/disposable income years).
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
908 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2012 :  22:40:31  Show Profile Send Matt James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rarely does anyone work on a book solely by themselves. If I had to venture a guess, Ed would lead a project and provide oversight, while faithful minions do his dark biding. Either way, it's all about collaboration. Hopefully any assembled team will do their best to mimic the greatest aspects of the Forgotten Realms.

Edited by - Matt James on 22 Jun 2012 22:41:00
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sfdragon
Great Reader

2018 Posts

Posted - 22 Jun 2012 :  23:58:06  Show Profile Send sfdragon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
and be damage control to keep the potential wallets open....

why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power


My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234
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arry
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
313 Posts

Posted - 23 Jun 2012 :  11:05:59  Show Profile Send arry a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If esteemed WotC produce material set in the pre-Spellplague Realms I will buy it; if not, I won't.
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LordXenophon
Learned Scribe

USA
110 Posts

Posted - 24 Jun 2012 :  20:50:33  Show Profile  Send LordXenophon an AOL message Send LordXenophon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It doesn't really matter. I won't buy it. Faerun changes because of an advancing story line and the actions of my players, not because some paper pusher decides to toss all my notes in the shredder and sell me new ones.

My version of Faerun is already significantly different from the "official" versain, in some pretty big ways. Khelben and King Azoun are still alive, half the "Wyrms of the North" are not, the Sithylesian Empire is growing out of control because of player indifference, There are two Manshoon clones working together as a team (both altered, so they don't count as "true" clones), there are temples of Waukeen, Sharess, Lliira and Umberlee in Waterdeep, the temple of Sune in Waterdeep is much larger and grander than in the books (due to generous player donations), Danilo Thann is one of the Lords of Waterdeep, Castle Dragonspear is being rebuilt (the players hope), the city of Llorkh burned down, Mystra is still Midnight, Adon is sane, Cyric is still a threat, the Spires of Morning had to be almost completely rebuilt after a Beholder attack collapsed one of the glass towers, the city of Waterdeep has grown well beyond the borders of the official map, the same has happened to Baldur's Gate, hydras are now a bigger problem than trolls for farmers on the Sword Coast (because certain players were so zealous about wiping out the trolls), you can sail from the Lake of Steam to the Inner Sea by way of the Sespech Canal (the player who built it went bankrupt) and there's a new order of knights who worship Helm (called the Knights of Helm).

You may call this digression. You may call it non-canon or even anti-canon. I call it progress. I'm not throwing it all away to conform to a "new canon."

Disintegration is in the eye of the Beholder.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30203 Posts

Posted - 24 Jun 2012 :  22:10:23  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordXenophon

Danilo Thann is one of the Lords of Waterdeep,


That's actually canon. He was a Lord, for a time, but later gave up his helm.

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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1361 Posts

Posted - 24 Jun 2012 :  22:21:42  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordXenophon

It doesn't really matter. I won't buy it. Faerun changes because of an advancing story line and the actions of my players, not because some paper pusher decides to toss all my notes in the shredder and sell me new ones.

My version of Faerun is already significantly different from the "official" versain, in some pretty big ways. Khelben and King Azoun are still alive, half the "Wyrms of the North" are not, the Sithylesian Empire is growing out of control because of player indifference, There are two Manshoon clones working together as a team (both altered, so they don't count as "true" clones), there are temples of Waukeen, Sharess, Lliira and Umberlee in Waterdeep, the temple of Sune in Waterdeep is much larger and grander than in the books (due to generous player donations), Danilo Thann is one of the Lords of Waterdeep, Castle Dragonspear is being rebuilt (the players hope), the city of Llorkh burned down, Mystra is still Midnight, Adon is sane, Cyric is still a threat, the Spires of Morning had to be almost completely rebuilt after a Beholder attack collapsed one of the glass towers, the city of Waterdeep has grown well beyond the borders of the official map, the same has happened to Baldur's Gate, hydras are now a bigger problem than trolls for farmers on the Sword Coast (because certain players were so zealous about wiping out the trolls), you can sail from the Lake of Steam to the Inner Sea by way of the Sespech Canal (the player who built it went bankrupt) and there's a new order of knights who worship Helm (called the Knights of Helm).

You may call this digression. You may call it non-canon or even anti-canon. I call it progress. I'm not throwing it all away to conform to a "new canon."



Nothing wrong with altering the Realms to what a person wants. I like reading stuff like this because it's interesting to see how various DM's run their worlds.
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see
Learned Scribe

190 Posts

Posted - 24 Jun 2012 :  22:33:46  Show Profile Send see a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Matt James

I don't understand why is has to be an all-or-nothing approach.


Because people felt betrayed by the changes made to the Realms in 2007-2008. Insofar as a product includes those changes, they are reminded of and re-feel the betrayal. And few people are willing to pay money to feel betrayed.

You can shout all day that the people who felt betrayed are being irrational. That's not going to change their spending decisions. After all, the reason they became FR fans in the first place was an emotional reaction. You can give them product completely free of anything that reminds them of the betrayal, or you can write off their money.
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
908 Posts

Posted - 24 Jun 2012 :  22:51:52  Show Profile Send Matt James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That does not favor your position. My point still remains. It's a prisoner's delima at this point.
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