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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
304 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 00:38:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
With Ed Greenwood at the wheel, I think we’ll see the Realms deliberately set on a path that keeps the Spellplague in the rearview mirror where it belongs as the timeline moves forward. That ought to attract back older fans.
I don't think that Ed in control leads to a realms that appeals to all. On the http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16628 thread, 4e fans already have expressed concern that things may change to much with Ed at the helm. So, pre-4e fans are likely to complain that things don't change enough. Also, Ed is unlikely to be the solo designer. So, if the team is Ed plus the remaining 4e crew, how much do you think will really change?
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Off the top of my head: I’ve read Bury Elminster Deep, Elminster Must Die, Neverwinter (book 1) and Waterdeep. I haven’t read any of the Abolethic Sovereignty trilogy, but then again I never read the Threat From the Sea trilogy or any of several other pre-Plague series set in the Realms.
The Aboleth stuff doesn’t appeal to me, so I ignored it for my 4E D&D Realms game (and I don’t write about it for my own fanwork set in the post-Spellplague Realms).
Likewise I never used the Threat from the Sea stuff in my earlier Realms games.
This doesn’t mean that other people didn’t find either of those trilogies useful for their Realms games or didn’t find them entertaining reads. Rather, it reinforces the point that not everything is for everyone and that’s OK.
Of course, one doesn't need to have read everything in order to support the Realms or have an era of preference.
RE: grit and darkness: I think the newer material is perfectly suited to show the “gritty unberbelly” of the Realms—and from what I’ve read, it does. Drizzt’s slide into emotional turmoil due to loss of loved ones, Elminster reduced to a by-the-skin-of-his-teeth hustler trying to do good with no power, Cormyr struggling under the weight of too many fractious and rebellious nobles while a relatively weak king rules, Waterdeep experiencing growing pains while its nobles deteriorate and sell off their titles just to survive…to me that’s all pretty grim and a nice way of showing how things change in the Realms as time advances.
I’m not sure if the novels I haven’t read depict the Realms as post-apocalyptic, but the ones I have read don’t do that, just as the FRCS doesn’t depict the Realms as post-apocalyptic either.
I hate to say it, but you just almost entirely killed my motivation to finish reading the two new Elminster books. I was hoping that by the end of the second book, El would at least be a marginally competent mage again. Also, Elminster must Die really highlights the change in tone in FR, Cormyr and Shadowdale both are depressing and gloomy locations compared to there previous incarnations. They are actually a great example of being called the same name, but having very little in common with the old places.
quote:
I see your logic, but I wonder if you aren’t drawing a false divide.
There is a lot of talk on the internet about the “division” between fans of the Realms. The more I think about it, the more I think this is much ado about nothing; more a product of the internet’s amazing ability to make issues seem bigger than they are (that is, continued repetition of some meme isn’t any indicator of the truth of that meme) and magnify the voices of people who are unhappy about something and more likely to post online.
The internet is not a completely unreliable source for information agreed. However, it is rather curious that everytime FR is mentioned in Wotc and Enworld's boards the same arguments occur. Maybe it is just a few disgruntled fans that have multiple different names for each board, but I don't think that is very likely. It is also curious that this does not occur with Eberron and Dark Sun given that the cause is "much ado about nothing". I guess the nothing going on in those other settings does not spark debates. It seems more likely that these fights spring up every time, because of how different the 4e and pre 4e versions. Similarly to how virtual every thread on Wotc / enworld forums devolves into an edition war, because of the large difference between the 3e and 4e user groups. The internet does magnify complaints, but if every where you turn the same complains appear there is likely something behind them. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
Edited by - Tarlyn on 21 Jun 2012 01:54:48 |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 01:45:29
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quote:
They are actually a great example of being called the same name, but having very little in common with the old places.
There's a lot of that going on in the Spellplague Realms, what I call "INOism." Lots of places and organizations which are using the names of something from before but aren't really that place or organization. The Harpers and the Zhentarim are two great examples of that. The Zhentarim used to be a secret organization dedicated to spreading the power of Zhentil Keep (and their leader, typically Manshoon or Fzoul), and now they're a mercenary company? And the Harpers apparently disbanded, only for a new group of people to form a group called the Harpers whose only purpose now is fighting the Shades. And how many locales were blown up, vanished, and rebuilt just so they could make a break from the history of the original place? |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15711 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 02:59:35
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I'm starting to think that trying to appeal to the 'old fans' (pre-4e) - like a lot of us are - might be a VERY bad idea. If they do have an established new fanbase with 4e, then I doubt 5e will make very many 'old fans' happy regardless, and all it will do is alienate the new fans, bringing FR to a close.
I say this because I am now of the mind that without a reboot, old fans will never be happy. The ones that don't care how much they spend on new material have already found a new playground. I just don't think they are going to get those people back (I think it is very possible to do so, but I don't think they have the determination to do ALL that it will take).
Maybe its already over, and we are like Bruce Willis in The Sixth Sense.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Eltheron
Senior Scribe
740 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 03:39:26
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Consider the following: Ed's new "Elminster's Realms" coming out shortly might just be the Realms' saving grace. I don't know this for sure, but my bet is that it's just "Ed's Realms" without a lot of the things that happened in the canon Realms. As such, it would be an alternate world (or alternate timeline) Realms.
Again, I don't know for sure if that's what it is, but I hope so.
Let's go a few months out. What if that alternate reality Realms becomes SO popular that it supplants the current, existing canon Realms for 5E? Would this not be the best of all possible worlds for everyone? The canon Realms wouldn't necessarily be invalidated, but the new Realms line would be Ed's world. No ToT, so no Cyric, Midnight, etc. No Spellplague, no Abeir, no weirdness with Shadowfels and whatnot, no earth-motes.
But where would this leave the novelists and lore-enthusiasts? Do they continue with the novel canon Realms, which includes 4E? Or do they start writing novels for Ed's world?
Lots of interesting possibilities, I think.
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"The very best possible post-fourteenth-century Realms lets down those who love the specific, detailed social, political and magical situation, with its thousands of characters, developed over forty years, and want to learn more about it; and those who'd be open to a new one with equal depth, which there just isn't time to re-produce; and those repelled, some past the point of no return, by the bad-taste-and-plausibility gap of things done to the world when its guardianship was less careful."
--Faraer |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 06:14:33
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| That would be pretty nice, actually. I'll check out Ed's Realms and, if I like it, you can count on my providing it with my financial support. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 08:07:59
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Hi Tarlyn
I agree with you that Ed likely won’t be a solo designer—and that’s a very good thing. Even though Ed built the sandbox, more then one game designer/novel author has built a sand castle to rival anything Ed’s created (nod to Mirtek).
Likewise I agree that people will complain, especially fans of the Realms who prefer the pre-Spellplague Realms. But I think we should expect they’re going to do that no matter what. That also is a good thing (in a way): at least people are talking about the Realms, right? 
I think (hope) most fans of the Realms who prefer the pre-Plague Realms will like what Ed has to offer when the 5E Realms is released. I’m keeping my hopes up.
As to how much of the post-Spellplague Realms will change: not a lot, I’m wagering. What I do think will happen is that the after-effects of the Spellplague will be tamped down even more, just as pre-Spellplague influences (like the Shadovar) will get weakened too. This could mean major map changes I suppose, but I’m hoping it’s in less overt ways that we get back to what most people over the last twenty to thirty years would collectively agree is the Realms.
I want to see a return to the unreliable narrator (such as is being done currently in Ed’s Eye on the Realms articles), I want less overt organizations—ones that don’t have Realms-wide influence and aren’t like a fantasy version of the Legion of Doom, I want dungeons and adventures that are smaller scale and encourage/require gamers to know a little something about the world their characters are in (this encourages roleplaying and player buy-in to the setting).
Stuff like that.
quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
I hate to say it, but you just almost entirely killed my motivation to finish reading the two new Elminster books. I was hoping that by the end of the second book, El would at least be a marginally competent mage again.
You shouldn’t give me that power. FWIW, Elminster is still a very competent mage. I won’t say anything else, save that you should absolutely finish those books, because you’re on the right track with your hopes.
Have you noticed how much new Realmslore on Cormyr Ed has put in the first two novels? They’re filled to the brim with information and history about Cormyr.
quote:
Originally posted by Tarlyn
Cormyr and Shadowdale both are depressing and gloomy locations compared to there previous incarnations. They are actually a great example of being called the same name, but having very little in common with the old places.
I agree we’re getting a grittier Realms, but I disagree wholeheartedly that Cormyr, for example, has little in common with its older self.
Cormyr is by far still Cormyr, body and soul. As presented, it’s practically the same as it would be even if the Spellplague never happened. The place is lively with noble-induced intrigue and plots backed by outlander organizations. (You’ll forgive my bias, I hope. I’m a big Cormyr fan.)
Likewise, in my opinion, for places like Waterdeep.
Shadowdale (what little I’ve read of it post-Spellplague) doesn’t seem any different. Just older.
And that’s the key point I think people are overlooking: the advancement of a century in the Realms is by far a greater force of change then the Spellplague. When I read through these forums, I don’t think enough attention is being given to whether something is a Spellplague-driven change or a time-driven change.
quote:
Originally posted by Venger
And the Harpers apparently disbanded, only for a new group of people to form a group called the Harpers whose only purpose now is fighting the Shades.
New lore has arisen since the blunt information given on the Harpers in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide.
The Harpers are collectively more then a single organization of new people that only battle the Shades. They're much better for this, in my opinion. More variety that way. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
Edited by - Jeremy Grenemyer on 21 Jun 2012 08:13:24 |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 08:21:37
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quote:
New lore has arisen since the blunt information given on the Harpers in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide.
The Harpers are collectively more then a single organization of new people that only battle the Shades. They're much better for this, in my opinion. More variety that way.
Where is this information? |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 08:44:53
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Information on the Harpers Under the Stars, the Harpers of Cormyr and the Dales, as well as mention of the numerous other groups who call themselves Harpers (some old, some new) may be found in Ed Greenwood's Eye on the Realms article Whispered Words in Dungeon #188.
ARTICLE LINK ...requires a DDI subscription. Even if you do only the $10.00 - one month subscription, you can easily download all 32 of Ed's Eye articles, which is one hell of a deal, especially (in my not so humble opinion) because it presents material in the way I want the 5E Realms to be written.
Note some of those articles are so post-Spellplague transparent that it's hard to tell just when in the timeline they're set. I've pulled 228 unique NPC names from them (in an excel file) and filled up eight other excel tabs with information on new words of the Realms, trading costers, merchant cabals, adventuring bands and organizations, dragon names, broadsheets and books.
Good stuff. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3048 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 09:41:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Information on the Harpers Under the Stars, the Harpers of Cormyr and the Dales, as well as mention of the numerous other groups who call themselves Harpers (some old, some new) may be found in Ed Greenwood's Eye on the Realms article Whispered Words in Dungeon #188.
ARTICLE LINK ...requires a DDI subscription. Even if you do only the $10.00 - one month subscription, you can easily download all 32 of Ed's Eye articles, which is one hell of a deal, especially (in my not so humble opinion) because it presents material in the way I want the 5E Realms to be written.
Note some of those articles are so post-Spellplague transparent that it's hard to tell just when in the timeline they're set. I've pulled 228 unique NPC names from them (in an excel file) and filled up eight other excel tabs with information on new words of the Realms, trading costers, merchant cabals, adventuring bands and organizations, dragon names, broadsheets and books.
Good stuff.
Typical Ed Greenwood.
One of my favorites is the hidden Eye Tyrant Realm under or by Cormyr, or what is left of it anyways.
I wonder if there is any connection between them and the Eye Tyrants of Zhentil Keep... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 13:26:51
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quote:
An interesting bit of debate. People are attracted to flawed, dark, ambiguous, "broken" characters - the pure and unambiguous hero is no longer believable or interesting.
1) "Some" people are attracted to characters like that. Those same people can likewise be attracted to other kinds of characters. Pure unambiguous heroes, after all, just made $1.4 billion at the box office.
2) Since when have the heroes in the Forgotten Realms ever been without flaws, pure, and unambiguous?
quote:
Yet people cannot accept the same for the setting around the hero? A magical kingdom full of Disney castles and fairies seems as dull to me as the shining paladins who inhabit it.
Since when has the Forgotten Realms ever been this? And I'm extremely confused as to how you could've ever accumulated such a high post count on a Forgotten Realms centric forum when you obviously detest the Forgotten Realms, not to mention have such a slanted view of it which is so far from the reality.
quote:
The Realms has been burned, scarred, given a dose of poison - and it hasn't died, it has the opportunity to come back stronger and "grittier" than before.
Stronger than before? Is that why WotC is promising support for multiple campaign eras? Because the 4E Realms was so strong that it could support the Realms line on its own? Could it be that maybe mutilating a setting to appeal to people who're looking for a whole other campaign setting wasn't the way to go, and in fact only weakened the game line?
By the way, I believe this is the game you're looking for.
http://greenronin.com/sifrp/
You may want to play that instead of trying to take a square peg and trying to hammer it into a round hole. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
3724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 13:56:50
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| @Venger: who in the hells are you quoting? Try to include the names of folks when you are tweaking their nose...so the rest of us can follow eh? |
AD&D for me! |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 14:06:21
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Sorry for the confusion. I was replying to this post.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
People today are not interested in shining knights and noble paladins, morally ambiguous characters are more popular. Look at Games of Thrones or even Erevis Cale.
quote:
Comparing the Spellplague Realms to Game of Thrones is an insult to Game of Thrones.
quote:
This is your personal point of view but as someone who loves goth Game of thrones and the realms i could not disagree with you more. Like it or not there have been many plus points to 4e as well and while i agree that many mistakes were made in 4e, sweeping it all underneath the carpet is not the way forward.
An interesting bit of debate. People are attracted to flawed, dark, ambiguous, "broken" characters - the pure and unambiguous hero is no longer believable or interesting.
Yet people cannot accept the same for the setting around the hero? A magical kingdom full of Disney castles and fairies seems as dull to me as the shining paladins who inhabit it. The Realms has been burned, scarred, given a dose of poison - and it hasn't died, it has the opportunity to come back stronger and "grittier" than before.
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"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
3724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 14:09:37
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| Many thanks. ;-) |
AD&D for me! |
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snotereceorlas
Acolyte
United Kingdom
4 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 15:07:59
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Oh, oh, I know. The answer is contained in a novel I am writing.
In fact, I’ve been mulling over how to get in contact with Ed Greenwood and my fellow Realms fans about it. If the idea gets aired here, then perhaps I can achieve both aims at one and the same time.
The tale in question started life as an FR story set in the 3.5 Realms. Then a new child came. Then 4e came.
So, a new story was begun with the same core characters. But I was having a hard time ‘translating' these characters (and their classes) to make them act like 4e characters (I like rogues and clerics of 3.5 and below).
Then i thought, 'What if the characters themselves are having a hard time coping with the transitions that the Spellplague brought about?' I could depict them struggling in the way i did – only they are doing it in the real D&D world! This kind of thought I’m sure is common to many who love the Realms, but in my case it gave an additional drive to the story. And what if the first story is now history and affects the present tale?
The novel is a serious proposition, and I am aware this is a big claim. I believe the novel can live up to it. As far as my own credentials go, I have translated many books destined for the commercial market from Italian to English in addition to other things, so I’m not a complete joker.
I intend to send the book to wizards. But I’d really, really, really rather Ed and my FR peers looked at it first.
Now we are about half way through this post we come to a technical matter about the plot.
The big question: does the novel provide the solution (I’ll outline this and more in the ‘open letter’ I’m thinking about sending to Ed and everyone, which is just a post on these forums) or only a part of it? Simply I want to be part of the solution to get our beloved FR back. Don’t really mind what the role is. Playing the game and reading the fiction with equal intensity are my special thing.
Finally, another point which I’m only going to raise because this is my first post. If I were to read it from someone else, I would ask ‘Who is this person?’ So, a word about my FR credentials. I’ve been solid since 1998. In September of that year I decided two things: Tolkein was my favourite author and the ‘other hands’ carrying on his work (though it is totally their own work now, of course) were those involved in AD&D in general very much the Realms in particular. The Realms as we know has a depth that does make it historical in the best sense. It’s the contributions of many, many people who have given it the flavour and all the other things we like about it. We also know many D&D players do not want this (the only other player in my town I know of is baffled by my focus on the Realms).
So, what is it all about…
More to come. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3223 Posts |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 16:38:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
One of my favorites is the hidden Eye Tyrant Realm under or by Cormyr, or what is left of it anyways.
I wonder if there is any connection between them and the Eye Tyrants of Zhentil Keep...
I wondered that too, but from the angle of how they feel about Manshoon enslaving their kind all the time. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
32070 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 17:52:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
-Hope you didn't put too much effort into that, because WotC does not care about and read as a result submitted materials they they didn't specify and put out an open call for.
Indeed. Many published writers won't read unpublished work from aspiring authors, and WotC doesn't accept unsolicited manuscripts. It's far better to establish your writing chops by getting a publication history going elsewhere, and then you can either let WotC come to you or wait for one of their rather infrequent open calls.
Not trying to discourage you, just trying to make sure your expectations are realistic. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
32070 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 17:54:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
One of my favorites is the hidden Eye Tyrant Realm under or by Cormyr, or what is left of it anyways.
I wonder if there is any connection between them and the Eye Tyrants of Zhentil Keep...
I wondered that too, but from the angle of how they feel about Manshoon enslaving their kind all the time.
I didn't think he was enslaving them, so much as he was making his own deals with them... I seem to recall a scene in Spellfire where even Manny was surprised by beholder actions.
Besides which, I should think it difficult for a spellslinger to enslave someone who could negate their magic. Obviously, it can be done, but it wouldn't be easy. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3223 Posts |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 18:23:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I didn't think he was enslaving them, so much as he was making his own deals with them... I seem to recall a scene in Spellfire where even Manny was surprised by beholder actions.
I was thinking about the beholders and beholder-kin Manshoon was controlling while he was up to no good in Cormyr (as depicted in the Elminster Must Die and Burry Elminster Deep books). At one point a beholder breaks free (temporarily) from Manshoon’s control and practically begs those around it to free it from Manshoon’s magical leash.
Makes me wonder where he got his supply of beholders from and how he knew where to look. Did the old Eye Tyrants teach him beholder lore or did he already know about the Xraunrar?
If WotC does do a full Realms reboot, I want them to focus some attention on beholders and beholder nations in the Realms. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
909 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 18:33:51
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quote:
Originally posted by snotereceorlas
Snip...
WotC will not accept any unsolicited material. In fact, they will throw it away as soon as possible (as will any other publishing organization). There is a big, big liability in reading an unsolicited piece of work. In order to curb any possible issues, they won't even entertain the idea. If they did, and later someone (like me) had a story published that was even remotely like yours, you could sue the pants off of them. This is something no publishing company wants.
I recommend you head over to WotC's novel department and read everything they have available on the topic of submissions. You're find that you may need to approach all of this from a different angle.
Finally: Don't read into this as a road-block. If you want to get a book published through them, you need to know what your working parameters are. Authors (Ed) and publishers get bombarded by a million people who believe their book is the next NY Times best seller. |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
909 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 18:35:13
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| ...edit to add. Unless you are a well-established novelist, don't expect WotC to pick up any new authors. This is more in relation to the current state of publishing, and less about WotC. |
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Venger
Learned Scribe
USA
268 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 18:42:33
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| Honestly, I think he's just being a screwball and isn't being serious. |
"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power." |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
909 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 18:46:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Venger
Honestly, I think he's just being a screwball and isn't being serious.
Maybe, but how would I know? I was just giving out a friendly push in the right direction. As best as I can tell, his name is Andrew Tullock, and he is active on the D&D next forum. He also appears to play Flames of War ;) |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
276 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2012 : 19:06:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
WotC will not accept any unsolicited material. In fact, they will throw it away as soon as possible (as will any other publishing organization).
This sounds like an incredibly tough business to break into then, if no publishing organizations will accept unsolicited material due to liabilities. I guess that's why I'm a gamer and not a writer.  |
"Intimidation is a weapon of the Legion. Intelligence is not." -Illidan Stormrage |
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Reboot of the Realms for 5th edition.
