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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 20:31:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Not to dissuade anyone from voting in my own poll, but it seems they already have another RSE already planned and in the works for the Realms, which we'll see in about three months with this upcoming novel:
Spinner of Lies by Bruce Cordell (Apr 2012).
The release notes read: "Spinner of Lies is a sequel to Sword of the Gods, and is also tied to the Rise of the Underdark, an event that will have bold, sweeping ramifications across (and under) the Forgotten Realms." (emphasis mine)
Thoughts? Opinions?
Tied to Rise of the Underdark? This is news to me. Any idea what it means? Lolth has her house in order so now its time to finally begin working on the Second Directive of Lolth or whatever the destroy all surface elves directive means? |
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Brix
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 20:31:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
but story material should support any edition.
That's the most important statement!
Many gamers are playing their homebrew rules anyway, regardless of what iteration is currently the official game.
It's about good stories - in any kind of genre.
As long as they let the good people like those mentioned do what they do best - writing good stories - I'm sure we will have our long awaited renaissance soon. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 20:38:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I'm speaking from experience, seeing this happen to numerous fantasy settings, comic book cosmologies, etc. I stand by my belief that a cosmic reboot is almost never a good idea--far better to roll with it and just "make it better," not "remake it again."
I understand what you're saying, certainly when comic book companies do something like this it can end up being messy and bizarre.
But in the case of the Realms, saying it never happened... I honestly do think that it would be a lot better.
And think, you could take the opportunity to write alternate histories (and novels) for the characters you've introduced.
quote:
Also, IMO, the suggestion of a massive retcon to get rid of 4e sounds eerily like the suggestion of a massive retcon to CREATE 4e.
Well, what I'm suggesting would actually just be reversing damage. I'm not suggesting that something equally bizarre to 4E take its place, I'm suggesting that the flow of events without the Spellplague/Abeir elements would be a better timeline.
Of course, we don't know that for sure. But a commitment to story and interpersonal relationships, rather than on epic magic and powerbloat, would be highly important for this. Otherwise, yes, they could give us something worse in the long run.
quote:
quote:
I mean, they've already got another RSE coming soon, as evidenced by Cordell's novel coming out in April (see above). I think the last thing anyone really wants is for the continuing escalation of RSEs to keep coming, unabated.
I'm sorry, this argument doesn't hold much weight with me. We know next to nothing about Bruce's novel, and we all know that RSEs are (by and large) more about hype than actual crushing impact. All it's saying is that something is going to change. Not that scary.
I guess we'll see in April. *shrug*
To me, that will be a big litmus test for what to expect with 5E.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 20:39:14
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I voted for the 3rd option, tone down the heavy elements of the Spellplague, but keep everything that has happened Canon. Also along with Erik, they should be producing products that aim at all sorts of Timelines of the FR universe. flesh out Netheril "good ol' days", discuss and detail the fall of Myth Drannor, talk about the Time of Troubles, descirbe and fully flesh out an adventure for something a few days after Mystra's death.
Make the lore edition free, using loose terminology (mages, magic-users, spellcasters are all great for pretty much any arcane user). But we'll see. I'm just drained right now, and really don't care that much either way. I'll put in my 2-cents when it comes to playtesting, but the Realms are what I make them, not WotC. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 20:46:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
The Star Wars Expanded Universe is a great analogy. I think WotC could stand to ape that construction, and set things radically far apart but still relevant. The Realms is panoramic and history-sweeping with so much vast possibility for story--quite enough to pull that off.
I'd like to see Realms novels releasing 15-20 a year myself, but maybe that's just me. Some of those should be "present/advance the timeline" novels, while a few should be "wherever you want to set it" novels. Open the Grand History, select a random page, and put your finger down on an era. That sort of story. Like Rosemary's Crypt of the Moaning Diamond, for instance.
Cheers
Erik, I agree with this post and your previous one %110! We definitely need more novels not less. This one novel a month thing is frustrating. I mean, I have money to spend on novels so they should let me spend it. 
As for the Star Wars analogy, I have this posted on the WoTC forums and I think it is the key for a thriving Realms. Granted, you don't want to move the timeline along too fast. But you still want to produce lots of product for us to consume. So opening up the past will feed both needs. |
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Brix
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 20:47:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I voted for the 3rd option, tone down the heavy elements of the Spellplague, but keep everything that has happened Canon. Also along with Erik, they should be producing products that aim at all sorts of Timelines of the FR universe. flesh out Netheril "good ol' days", discuss and detail the fall of Myth Drannor, talk about the Time of Troubles, descirbe and fully flesh out an adventure for something a few days after Mystra's death.
Make the lore edition free, using loose terminology (mages, magic-users, spellcasters are all great for pretty much any arcane user). But we'll see. I'm just drained right now, and really don't care that much either way. I'll put in my 2-cents when it comes to playtesting, but the Realms are what I make them, not WotC.
Yes. That's it 100%!!
Monte Cook is researching what the core of D&D really is.
I think the core of FR is its huge history. Let's add to that.
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 20:49:54
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quote:
originally posted by Tyrant
You're confusing the current FR timeline with the 4E game system. Seeing as how just about every novel that we know of for this year is a FR novel, and we know that FR is getting another major RPG book this year making 4 to Dark Sun's 2 (with no signs of anything else for Dark Sun), and we know FR has a board game coming giving them 2, and we know there is a FR specific adventure coming this year, and we know FR will be supported right from the start of 5E with no mention of any other settings, I believe you are very much mistaken in your appraisal of the situation and that you have nothing to back up your claim. WotC is obviously putting a lot of their chips on FR and you don't back a losing bet if you have any intelligence.
Um, I think that various companies have been backing a money losing bet with D&D since around 1986 or so. Second, we have to separate the novels from the game, as many more people buy the novels than buy the game (and WOTC/Hasbro are game companies, not book publishers). Third, we do not know what the sales stats are for the novels either, are they selling less under the 4th edition Realms than before (I would bet on yes)? Sadly, I have more to back my claim than you do to back yours that the 4e Realms are doing fine, as if they were we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.
My personal preference would be to reset back to (what is widely regarded as the best written Realms gaming product of all time) the Old Gray Box as the base timeline and then make everything else optional off of that. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 21:03:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
...Um, I think that various companies have been backing a money losing bet with D&D since around 1986 or so. Second, we have to separate the novels from the game, as many more people buy the novels than buy the game (and WOTC/Hasbro are game companies, not book publishers). Third, we do not know what the sales stats are for the novels either, are they selling less under the 4th edition Realms than before (I would bet on yes)? Sadly, I have more to back my claim than you do to back yours that the 4e Realms are doing fine, as if they were we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.
More than just the announcement of 5E, I think it's also safe to say that another point of evidence is that we wouldn't have seen authors "softening" different aspects of 4E Realms if it had been a rousing success.
Ed bringing back Mystra, de Bie working on Helm, recent DDI showing that the spellplague wasn't quite as bad as the 4E FRCG presents it. the Neverwinter CG focusing heavily on story, factions, etc.
Was this "toning down" planned? I don't think so. Many old school Realms fans were outright offended by the 4E Realms, and the responses above were obvious olive branches by WotC.
quote:
My personal preference would be to reset back to (what is widely regarded as the best written Realms gaming product of all time) the Old Gray Box as the base timeline and then make everything else optional off of that.
You know, I could go for this and be quite happy. Disassociate ALL the novels from the game canon timeline, reset to the Gray Box, and make all of the future events "possible" but not canon. Even Drizzt would not be a certainty in the game. Have a separate canon for novels, either like how they treat Star Wars novels or Eberron novels. IIRC Star Wars has several canons and people don't complain too much.
Authors could write for any period.
Any "future" change, in any edition, would be a personal choice for each group.
This would be an even better solution than my time travel reset.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 09 Jan 2012 21:07:10 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 21:04:49
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One of the big things I like about 4E was the removal of many of the giant "super-powers" that were placed in various portions of the Realms. Most of my campaigns tend to go-in for empire or city state building eventually and we always had to locate those areas to less established area of the Realms to avoid an Elminster or Khelben showing up and burning us all to ash.
With 4E I get the impression that if the drow wanted to retake the Twisted Tower nowadays, it would be simple to make it believable. And if PC's want to form a mercenary army and try a bid for power much like Lashan of Scardale, you just might be able to do that nowadays.
I wouldn't mind keeping the 4E changes, but I'd reduce the size of those giant craters and chasms that opened all over the Realms. I'd also make some of the 4E things like earthmotes, crystal spires in the Moonsea and other major changes more along the lines of points of interest much like a ruin or dungeon to explore and not the norm. Many of the missing or "dead" gods could probably be explained as deities caught up and trapped with the elemental chaos or some sort of weird planar anomaly and are finally freeing themselves. Deities could have banded together for protection like in the 4E book, but are fracturing into their own realms again as the planes stabilize etc.
For 5th Edition, I'd like to see the simplicity of 2nd edition (you could get a decent stat block, level, hps etc in 2 sentences), so as not to have pages of stat blocks or half a book of tactical encounters, which seems like a lot of wasted space (3rd E). Having some of the neater things like skills or feats without them becoming a mathematical nightmare to keep track of would be nice too. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
768 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 21:27:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
One of the big things I like about 4E was the removal of many of the giant "super-powers" that were placed in various portions of the Realms. Most of my campaigns tend to go-in for empire or city state building eventually and we always had to locate those areas to less established area of the Realms to avoid an Elminster or Khelben showing up and burning us all to ash.
I am very curious about this comment. I don't mean to sound insulting or anything, but why do you have to avoid those areas? Granted, this is coming from someone who hardly ever gets to play the game. But the games I have played, the DM can pretty much paint the world any way he/she likes. Matter of fact, I jumped into a few games last year with some people at work and they were playing Zhentarim adventures trying to overthrow Shadowdale. At first I was like "dude! How are you going to overcome Elminster?" The DM replied "F Elminster he doesn't exist here". So is it just that some people are averse from going off the script laid down by WoTC? Or are your players threatening revolt if you change anything? Again, I am not trying to insult you. I am curious as to your reasons. |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 21:49:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
quote:
originally posted by Tyrant
You're confusing the current FR timeline with the 4E game system. Seeing as how just about every novel that we know of for this year is a FR novel, and we know that FR is getting another major RPG book this year making 4 to Dark Sun's 2 (with no signs of anything else for Dark Sun), and we know FR has a board game coming giving them 2, and we know there is a FR specific adventure coming this year, and we know FR will be supported right from the start of 5E with no mention of any other settings, I believe you are very much mistaken in your appraisal of the situation and that you have nothing to back up your claim. WotC is obviously putting a lot of their chips on FR and you don't back a losing bet if you have any intelligence.
Um, I think that various companies have been backing a money losing bet with D&D since around 1986 or so.
It's 2012. I have no idea what definition you are using for a losing bet but the game is still going 26 years after you say it has been a losing bet. Against my better judgement after this display of having no clue what you are talking about, I will continue.
quote:
Second, we have to separate the novels from the game, as many more people buy the novels than buy the game (and WOTC/Hasbro are game companies, not book publishers).
Again, you don't know what you are talking about. WotC is a company. Companies exist to make money. If their IP makes more money from novels than from games, then yes, they are a book publisher or they had better be. Money is the bottom line, not money from a specific revenue stream when another is sitting right there that is far more profitable.
quote:
Third, we do not know what the sales stats are for the novels either, are they selling less under the 4th edition Realms than before (I would bet on yes)?
We don't know the stats. However, we can make pretty safe assumptions based on what we know is going to happen in the future. And the future is clearly WotC backing FR while seemingly withdrawing from their other settings. Again, you don't put everything you have into the sinking ship when the rest of the fleet is still floating. The writing is on the wall as to which setting is making them money. I can't help it if you choose to not read said writing.
quote:
Sadly, I have more to back my claim than you do to back yours that the 4e Realms are doing fine, as if they were we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.
I am dying to see whatever it is you think you have because I haven't seen it yet. And again, you are mixing the game system with the setting. We're talking about 5E D&D, because 4E D&D isn't doing so hot. That in no way, shape, or form indicates that 4E FR is doing poorly. The release schedule very clearly argues against that point.
quote:
My personal preference would be to reset back to (what is widely regarded as the best written Realms gaming product of all time) the Old Gray Box as the base timeline and then make everything else optional off of that.
And in so doing you upset a tremendous number of fans who have come along since then in the hopes of winning over the die hards who are likely too far gone to win back. I have a feeling that you have no idea how petty and spiteful people can get when they feel they have been wronged. Trying to win the business of these types of people back is a suicidal business strategy because it will cost you a lot of your current customers in the hope (or should I say dream, because it's an unrealistic hope) that some old customers will come back. That is a very, very poor business decision. I get that some people feel really burned. You don't fix that by burning everyone else. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
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Marquant Volker
Learned Scribe
Greece
273 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 21:54:47
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WOTC should make Ed chief designer of the 5th edition realms. (imo) mr.Greenwood will make me fall in love with the realms again.
Oh, and then an supplement (and/or more novels) conserning elves with the name of mrs Elaine Cunningham with big letters on the front.
Of course other designers and authors as well, some of them posting here at the keep. They have provided great stories and memorable characters and added to the Realms.
PS: sorry for this hasty reply, i am overexcited about the news . I hope the Realms will gain during that process.
I would be glad if both spellplague and the time jump were canceled, however i dont believe this will happen. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 22:03:28
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Well if one considers it, other then core rules change, there is no indication of either major active realm being changed.
Oh novels as canon has more tended to hurt the Realms then help it IMO. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 22:29:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
And, here we go again.
*sigh*
Indeed. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 22:53:42
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Looking at the poll and the course of the conversation, it seems that what we're really talking about is the fundamental question of whether we should continue with the established 4e FR canon (in some way) or not (a retcon back to a rosier time). Does that seem accurate?
In that case, the votes should probably be reconsidered to group 2&3 together (the supporters of accepting the 4e canon and moving on) to stack against group 1 (the supporters of retconning the setting to remove the 4e canon). In which case, it looks fairly even to me.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
More than just the announcement of 5E, I think it's also safe to say that another point of evidence is that we wouldn't have seen authors "softening" different aspects of 4E Realms if it had been a rousing success.
Ed bringing back Mystra, de Bie working on Helm, recent DDI showing that the spellplague wasn't quite as bad as the 4E FRCG presents it. the Neverwinter CG focusing heavily on story, factions, etc.
Was this "toning down" planned? I don't think so. Many old school Realms fans were outright offended by the 4E Realms, and the responses above were obvious olive branches by WotC.
Hmm, that's an interesting interpretation, one that I hadn't really considered. Since the announcement of 4e, I haven't interpreted the at-times radical changes as "new canon" so much as "built-in stories." IMO, the death/disappearance of Mystra was obviously intended as a potential story/quest for your characters to follow: either returning her, gaining some of her power, or otherwise dealing with this whole big thing. It was EXPECTED that you would do something with her in the now "Mystra-absent" setting--or you could safely ignore her if you didn't want to use her in your game.
Same with Helm, Tyr, the other dead gods, etc., and so forth.
I don't think a reversal to the old status quo (and which era are we talking about? 1e, 2e? 3e, blue-e*?) is the answer.
(*Obscure Dr. Seuss reference. Clearly I need a better filter!)
If/when authors work with these changes aspects of the Realms, I don't think they plan to bring them back the way they were. Ed's clearly doing something with Mystra--you can tell that from his most recent books (the first of which he wrote before 4e hit and all the edition wars began). But we have no reason to think (and it would be underestimating Ed's intellect and creativity to suppose) that his new Mystra (if that is indeed what he's doing) will be the same as the old Mystra. Ed might be on a different track altogether!
Same with me and Helm, who is a fundamental part of my novel Downshadow, which I wrote and finished editing before the 4e RULESET was released, let alone the actual 4e FR campaign guide. I had no idea what the audience was going to think, but I saw an opportunity for a good story (the fallout from Helm's apparent demise) and took it. I won't say what I plan to do, but like Ed, the toy I'm playing with is going to change: Helm obviously won't be the same old Helm when I'm done with him. I hope he'll be at least some of what he was AND MORE.
AND MORE is the key phrase here. What people have often derided as unforgivable changes have been STORY-TELLING OPPORTUNITIES. There is so much story that the 4e Realms lends itself to, both at the table and at the typewriter, and I hope and expect that 5e will only increase that.
quote:
My personal preference would be to reset back to (what is widely regarded as the best written Realms gaming product of all time) the Old Gray Box as the base timeline and then make everything else optional off of that.
Well, the thing is . . . all of it IS optional. This gets to the question of "what is canon?", which I answer by saying, "canon is a tool to give you ideas for your game--it is NOT a strait-jacket or set of rules that you have to obey." But that goes beyond the scope of this thread.
quote:
Authors could write for any period.
I as well want to see this made not only more possible but actively encouraged. The problem is the business case--people want to feel as though they are witnessing progress, so novels set mostly or entirely in the past need to have some clear connection to the future--they still need to move things along. Thankfully, Realms history is so rich with mysterious events and cool happenings (see Grand History of the Realms) that I don't see this being a problem.
I would love to write a whole series about more than one of my "post-dated" characters--Fox-at-Twilight and Arya Venkyr spring to mind.
quote:
Any "future" change, in any edition, would be a personal choice for each group.
This is actually already the case. But again, that goes to the question of "what is canon?"
quote:
This would be an even better solution than my time travel reset.
You know, a thought occurred to me, to have our cake and eat it too: what about TWO Realms novel lines? The regular Forgotten Realms line (which features stories set in the 1480s), and then "Forgotten Realms: Legends," which features stories not only from the pre-Spellplague era but also from far-removed times/places?
Hmm.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 22:56:52
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A couple more notes:
quote:
Originally posted by Marquant Volker
WOTC should make Ed chief designer of the 5th edition realms. (imo) mr.Greenwood will make me fall in love with the realms again.
As far as I know, Ed is taking a very prominent role in Realms design from here-on-out. (And, also, w00t!)
quote:
Oh, and then an supplement (and/or more novels) conserning elves with the name of mrs Elaine Cunningham with big letters on the front.
That would be interesting. I don't know how interested Elaine would be in such a thing, but I'd definitely read it. (Or even better, help design it!)
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 23:27:47
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| I would like to see the Realms get the STAR WARS treatment. Have a guide for different eras. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 23:40:09
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quote:
posted by Tyrant
We don't know the stats. However, we can make pretty safe assumptions based on what we know is going to happen in the future. And the future is clearly WotC backing FR while seemingly withdrawing from their other settings. Again, you don't put everything you have into the sinking ship when the rest of the fleet is still floating. The writing is on the wall as to which setting is making them money. I can't help it if you choose to not read said writing.
I am dying to see whatever it is you think you have because I haven't seen it yet. And again, you are mixing the game system with the setting. We're talking about 5E D&D, because 4E D&D isn't doing so hot. That in no way, shape, or form indicates that 4E FR is doing poorly. The release schedule very clearly argues against that point.
And in so doing you upset a tremendous number of fans who have come along since then in the hopes of winning over the die hards who are likely too far gone to win back. I have a feeling that you have no idea how petty and spiteful people can get when they feel they have been wronged. Trying to win the business of these types of people back is a suicidal business strategy because it will cost you a lot of your current customers in the hope (or should I say dream, because it's an unrealistic hope) that some old customers will come back. That is a very, very poor business decision. I get that some people feel really burned. You don't fix that by burning everyone else.
I have a feeling you don't understand finance too well. Sure they can still possibly be making money on some Realms stuff, but if those revenues are declining (along with margins), then it is really a failure and a matter of time before the losses start to bleed into the Realms from the other lines. Churning out a couple more Realms books means very little (think of how many used to get published a year back in the day) other than to inflate what would be an otherwise horrible bottom line for another couple quarters to get them into 5th edition (where likely everything is on the table just like 4th). Since the Realms are the "default" setting, if they were doing so well, then so would D&D. Most businesses do not look at diminishing revenues/sales (which by all accounts ALL of D&D is seeing) as a good sign.
As for going back to the Gray Box, it doesn't necessarily peeve off anyone, as long as they didn't try to cram it down everyone's throats like was done with 4th. It is a fantastic campaign setting (if you haven't read it) and provides all the basic background needed to make the Realms come alive without much edition specific crunch. It is as close to Ed's original Realms as has been published. As for the timeline, nothing says they have to retcon anything. Just saying "here is the 'new' Realms campaign setting" doesn't do anything to those that still want to play (or write) in the 1480s. And since everything in the Gray Box is canon anyways, no changes are actually made to the continuity. What it does do, however, is get the Realms back to their origins, give us access to more of Ed's (still unpublished) information, and greatly simplify the "base" setting in a manner that allows maximum DM creativity and less worries about "violating canon". |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 23:41:37
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In my opinion, separate and unrelated timelines is the best alternative. Let the 4E Realms proceed for those who like it, but go back to an earlier version for those who prefer that.
But I don't see it happening. This would result in the Realms competing against itself and essentially being two different settings. And many would interpret that as an admission that the 4E Realms was a mistake.
I honestly expect WotC to keep moving forward, as they have been. |
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Marquant Volker
Learned Scribe
Greece
273 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2012 : 23:52:33
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This is great news ! I am sure Ed will improve the setting and win back Realm's fans both new and old!!
I totally agree with the idea of FR "Legends" kind of thing, after all it's what i'm doing in my games with my players. The great history of the Realms offer a grand collection of tales waiting to be told, what about a trilogy set in the Crown Wars? or in Netheril? Myth Drannor pre-fall or Delzoun? Hellgate keep maybe , well my point is clear eh? (i can keep giving examples till i bore you to death lol )
I did something (well...) like that that to my group and it worked. My players love the realms but they needed a break from the "known Realms"
They didnt want to visit Sylverymoon again, or even Waterdeep for a while, they wanted to discover something brand new. Our new campaign is set in Netheril, and it works at least for the time being. The best part is what one of my players said, that if we ever stop this campaign and play another one (modern Realms?), it will feel much different to them if they find a "Netherese Artifact" locked in a dungeon, they will feel the story and the grandeur behind the details - it will not be some "uber trinket" made by "stupid mages who went too high only to crush to their deaths - bwahaha they didnt see it coming" . On the other hand running a campaign isnt the same as writing novels and designing whole settings...
Its not about avoiding the spellplague and the time jump, its about making the realms a better setting by telling great stories.
Oh and last but not least: a sourcebook/supplement with elves by Elaine and Erik would be PERFECT ! |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 02:37:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
I have a feeling you don't understand finance too well.
Says the person who thought it was a losing proposition 26 years ago while the game has quite clearly survived through to today. Having already read the rest of your post, I know things do not improve from that point. So far I am using the actual evidence of the release schedule available to us along with the comments that FR will be supported from the get go while no other setting is even mentioned to back up my conclusions as opposed to wild assumptions pulled out of seemingly nowhere coupled with a clearly faulty knowledge of the past. Again I ask, do you actually have anything concrete to back up your claims?
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Sure they can still possibly be making money on some Realms stuff, but if those revenues are declining (along with margins), then it is really a failure and a matter of time before the losses start to bleed into the Realms from the other lines.
You are yet again assuming the failure of one aspect equals the failure of all aspects or that the failure of one will lead to the failure of the others, when it does not. The 4E game system not doing as well as expected (and while we can readily assume that is the case based on the evidence, we do not know exactly how poorly it is doing) does not mean one (or any) of the settings are themselves failing. Yet again, I point out that FR has numerous products coming out this year while the other settings (as far as we know right now) do not. It isn't rocket science to figure out that one of the settings is still making money. Will an overall failure of 4E (which has not actually happened) be detrimental to the Realms, probably, though that is primarily due to the Realms being tied to D&D and not because of any failing of the Realms themselves. Similarly, if Hasbro fails so too will the Realms but we aren't discussing variations of the Realms in response to positive or negative news about Hasbro.
I also don't believe one setting failing will negatively impact the others. That conclusion assumes a broad level of crossover, and that has definitely not been my experience.
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Churning out a couple more Realms books means very little (think of how many used to get published a year back in the day) other than to inflate what would be an otherwise horrible bottom line for another couple quarters to get them into 5th edition (where likely everything is on the table just like 4th).
Which "good old days"? 1998 appears to be the peak with 19 novels and if I had to guess that probably has something to do with WotC taking over at some point in 97 so there were probably books in production that were halted until after the take over. Again, that is just a guess. In 1997 there were 5. I should note that is 11 years after 1986 and that the game itself still continues. That was coming off 14 books in 1996. And followed by 9 books in 1999. 10 books in 2000, 2001, 2002, and 2003. 13-15 in 2004-2008. For this year there are 9 listed and I believe Erik's next book is supposed to be out this year along with Paul's and neither of those are listed yet making 11. That we know of. 11 is well within the average and there may yet be more. Only 2 years under TSR hit 12 or more books while the rest had 8 or less, which is less than any year after 97. From 1987-1996 the average number of books a year was 7.5. I am not sure if the 97 books were under TSR or WotC. From 98-2011 the average was 12.28 per year. WotC quite clearly has been pumping out more material than TSR did and next year falls in line with the average we have come to expect over the last decade. Nostalgia is a poor substitute for evidence. Care to try again?
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Since the Realms are the "default" setting, if they were doing so well, then so would D&D. Most businesses do not look at diminishing revenues/sales (which by all accounts ALL of D&D is seeing) as a good sign.
The Realms aren't presently the default setting. Why do you think they are? And yet again, what are you basing your claims of declining revenue of "all of D&D" on?
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As for going back to the Gray Box, it doesn't necessarily peeve off anyone, as long as they didn't try to cram it down everyone's throats like was done with 4th.
You mean when they stop supporting anything after the grey box, that won't be forcing people to revert back a few decades if they want to keep using the currently published material? How is that in any way different from what was done with 4th? You don't start building bridges by burning the few you have left.
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It is a fantastic campaign setting (if you haven't read it) and provides all the basic background needed to make the Realms come alive without much edition specific crunch.
A) in your opinion and B) who will buy it when they can just buy the original grey box? Remember, businesses need money. That's why they won't revert back to 3.5. The number of potential customers who can't get 3.5 material considerably cheaper than WotC would be selling it for is a rather small number of an already small population segment. It's why movie rereleases (theatrically) are rare and don't bring in anywhere near what the original brought in. Anyone who wants to see it probably saw it the first time around or bought the DVD. And before you try to twist that, yes I am aware that a number of people rebought movies they already owned on VHS when DVD came out. However, there were ceable quality differences between the two formats. Letters on a page don't improve by reprinting them unless the original copy was crap to begin with so it isn't the same.
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It is as close to Ed's original Realms as has been published.
That's great for anyone that cares about that. What about everyone else who has moved beyond that point and has no interest in going back? They get thrown out in the hope that people who love a decades old product that the industry has long since moved past will come flocking back in droves. Either you are grossly overestimating how many people would come back or I am grossly underestimating how many people will see such a transparent move for what it is and decide they have no interest in being burned again after they rebuy material they already have.
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As for the timeline, nothing says they have to retcon anything. Just saying "here is the 'new' Realms campaign setting" doesn't do anything to those that still want to play (or write) in the 1480s. And since everything in the Gray Box is canon anyways, no changes are actually made to the continuity. What it does do, however, is get the Realms back to their origins, give us access to more of Ed's (still unpublished) information, and greatly simplify the "base" setting in a manner that allows maximum DM creativity and less worries about "violating canon".
The very first suppliment that violates canon does exactly what you think won't happen. If they don't release something new, then they will be accused of just reselling what a number of fans probably already have (and the accusation will be spot on). If they make anything new, they will have to tap dance to avoid violating canon. Reverting will be every bit as exclusive as the time jump was no matter what language you choose to use to dress it up. People can see through flowery language. A reversion is a reversion. Going forward they need to be inclusive if they want to keep their customers. They need to unify, not pick a side.
You are also making a wild assumption that we will see more of Ed's unpublished lore under this scenario and apparently not see it under any other. Nothing is stopping them from publishing it right now, for instance. Likewise, nothing is saying they will change their mind just because they revert and then start pumping it out.
I'll ask again, do you actually have anything to back up your claims? |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 04:36:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
You know, a thought occurred to me, to have our cake and eat it too: what about TWO Realms novel lines? The regular Forgotten Realms line (which features stories set in the 1480s), and then "Forgotten Realms: Legends," which features stories not only from the pre-Spellplague era but also from far-removed times/places?
I would consider this to be a major positive change.
How would it work for DDI, though, especially for some new area (with no or minimal prior lore)? Have a side-box with a brief timeline for new content/areas? I could get behind that, for sure.
Or have all DDI be edition-free? I'd sign up. I would.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 10 Jan 2012 04:39:44 |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 04:58:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
You know, a thought occurred to me, to have our cake and eat it too: what about TWO Realms novel lines? The regular Forgotten Realms line (which features stories set in the 1480s), and then "Forgotten Realms: Legends," which features stories not only from the pre-Spellplague era but also from far-removed times/places?
I would consider this to be a major positive change.
How would it work for DDI, though, especially for some new area (with no or minimal prior lore)? Have a side-box with a brief timeline for new content/areas? I could get behind that, for sure.
Or have all DDI be edition-free? I'd sign up. I would.
DDI material could be a little tricky. I would think one way could be to have the articles cover the major parts of the timeline. For instance, a Cormyr article could cover the various eras. It could highlight whoever is sitting on the Dragon Throne in each era (though Azoun would cover at least 1e and 2e I believe so they would be combined into one section detailing his entire reign), or it could detail the royal lineage from Azoun through to the current King (or start way before Azoun). Or, the articles could center on a location and have side bits about famous people and locations down through the ages and feature a "where are they now" section if they are still around. It would be trickier than the novels, but I think it could be done.
In response to one of your earlier points, I believe the RSEs need to be toned down. Having said that, have we actually had any after the Spellplague and the time jump? I will wait and see about the potential one on the horizon (by the way, if that gave you a bad feeling, check out the blurb for Demon Weave), but I don't recall any having happened since the jump to 4E (though several lead up to it). |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 05:26:14
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Multi-edition and multi-timeline support, in the D&D Realms setting alone, not even considering other D&D settings or non-D&D products, would be a major undertaking for WotC. It would have to implemented at every level - gaming sourcebooks, adventures, novels, online forums, software.
It would also encourage a lot of splintering apart of their gaming/player groups rather than melding them together under a unified product line. I fear to think what a bunch of parallel-Realms trilogies and sagas would do to alienate fans who only know the setting through the novels and fiction.
Some amount of compromise is required to sustain D&D's future, whether that compromise comes from Wizbro or from the stubborn grognard fans or from the modern generation of D&D fans. What that means is that we all settle for being happy enough instead of perfectly satisfied, we may need to sacrifice the notion of parallel-Realms on the altar of revenue.
WotC's most obvious stepping-stone strategy would be to indentify what the most fans want the most. Ideally, which elements the fans find most appealing within the competitions' offerings (ie: mostly Pathfinder).
I think what the fans want most is an open, reliable, honest, trustworthy, and fair-value source for their gaming lore; they want to have confidence that they'll get good products at good prices, that they won't be forced to blindly swallow every word that rolls off the printing press, that the product they know and love today will still be around tomorrow ... Paizo has established a fairly exemplary history, plus they've demonstrated a willingness to communicate with and accomodate their fanbase from the onset. Wizbro might genuinely wish to improve their fan standing with similar methods, and the people in WotC today are not necessarily the ones who made bad decisions over the previous years, but they're going to have to deliver a lot to win over customers who've witnessed a long history of dishonesty, deception, unreliability, and pressing the red panic button to launch the nukes (again and again). Whether WotC's reputation among it's (potential) fans is deserved or not is not quite as important as the damage that reputation inflicts on their sales and how to address it.
But then again, I'm a cynical sort of guy. I see the announcement of 5E as a desperate imperative (from higher up the evil faceless megacorp?) to revive diminished revenues or face extinction.
One the face it of, the easiest way to support multiple D&D editions is to actually (re)release every edition concurrently. Why make an entirely brand new 5E (which obsoletes all previous editions) when 5E and 4E (and 3E, 2E, etc) can all simultaneously exist side-by-side on the shelves? Whether or not I bother to buy into 5E depends entirely on how well WotC can answer that question. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 05:41:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Tyrant
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
You know, a thought occurred to me, to have our cake and eat it too: what about TWO Realms novel lines? The regular Forgotten Realms line (which features stories set in the 1480s), and then "Forgotten Realms: Legends," which features stories not only from the pre-Spellplague era but also from far-removed times/places?
I would consider this to be a major positive change.
How would it work for DDI, though, especially for some new area (with no or minimal prior lore)? Have a side-box with a brief timeline for new content/areas? I could get behind that, for sure.
Or have all DDI be edition-free? I'd sign up. I would.
DDI material could be a little tricky. I would think one way could be to have the articles cover the major parts of the timeline. For instance, a Cormyr article could cover the various eras. It could highlight whoever is sitting on the Dragon Throne in each era (though Azoun would cover at least 1e and 2e I believe so they would be combined into one section detailing his entire reign), or it could detail the royal lineage from Azoun through to the current King (or start way before Azoun). Or, the articles could center on a location and have side bits about famous people and locations down through the ages and feature a "where are they now" section if they are still around. It would be trickier than the novels, but I think it could be done.
That'd work for me. I think it can be done also. I would love a sidebar timeline thing.
quote:
In response to one of your earlier points, I believe the RSEs need to be toned down. Having said that, have we actually had any after the Spellplague and the time jump? I will wait and see about the potential one on the horizon (by the way, if that gave you a bad feeling, check out the blurb for Demon Weave), but I don't recall any having happened since the jump to 4E (though several lead up to it).
Oh ack... I can't un-read that Demon Weave blurb. It's rolling around in my head creating awful scenarios now...
I'd expect that it's part of a series, perhaps like the multi-author Sembia series, and maybe Cordell's novel is one in the series?
Hard to say at this point. But yuck.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 05:57:20
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Ayrik, I don't see them heavily supporting previous game editions. Previous parts of the timeline, sure. And I think that can be done without a lot of trouble. But, previous editions of the game rules would be tricky because you have to seriously divide your staff and as you said it seriously devides the customer base. I could see them releasing general guides for conversions to previous editions in an attempt to extend an olive branch to get people to use new material in older edition games. I have no idea how well that would go over though, but it would have to be done right or it will just feel like an insult and an attempt to get older players to buy new stuff (of course, that is what it really is, but there's no need to advertise that). The DDI articles though could give stats for different editions when they give out stats.
Therise, yes I believe those two books and the upcoming Menzoberranzan RPG book (that appears to be similar to the Neverwinter RPG book) are all part of a marketing push focusing on the Drow/Lolth similar to the combined marketing for Neverwinter last year (and I guess this year if the MMO gets released). It will be interesting to see how the plot of Demon Weave squares with Mystra returning. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 06:44:20
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One way to implement such a compromise would be a sort of WotC bookstore where people can order any title WotC (and TSR?) has ever previously released for every edition. WotC probably doesn't want to absorb the overheads and risks associated with massive warehouses full of hardcopy stock which might never sell, and reprinted material would probably need to be identified in some immediately obvious way which differentiates it from the "original" collector pieces plus which reaffirms WotC's legal ownerships.
Print-on-demand technologies are not a completely nonviable business option so long as customers exist who are willing to buy the product, especially since already-published materials would require no great labour beyond applying errata corrections and renewing copyrights. Cut out the entire chain of logistics middlemen, production meeting quotas set directly by paying customers. The greatest impediments would come from outside WotC, from Hasbro and affiliates; an entire industry in itself, full of overheads imposed on overheads, a lot of people who would be quite dismayed if a large player like Hasbro shifted away from the traditional business model. POD itself has been marketed to end-consumers in a most cost-ineffective manner which attempts to impose the old monopoly-model publisher house thinking ... no large publishers have ever tried to apply it to their "in house" production needs. WotC's D&D brand seems to currently be positioned on a do-or-die precipice, the perfect contender for daring gambles which challenge the established paradigm. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
495 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 06:54:48
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I would think there would be two ways that the entire thing could/should progress. That being said, Wizbro won't do either of them - their record borders on abysmal so far, so I don't really hold any high hopes.
One, retain 4th Edition Realms as is...BUT...set about repairing those elements that made the fan base bristle like rabid porcupines with machine guns. Obviously, there are things you simply can't fix - Unther gone, Mulhorand all but smashed out of existance (and what's left is held by someone else), Maztica displaced, and so forth. However, other elements that proved to be both immensely unpopular and ill-conceived are able to be fixed.
* Gradual rebuilding of (even a small part of) Halruaa.
* Bring back the drow deities that were pointlessly butchered.
* Bring back other deities that were pointlessly butchered.
* And so on...I am sure people could easily add to this.
Or Two, a Star Trek-style reboot. Consider, as an example of how this might work:
In 1481 DR, a Lantanese wizard and a former priestess of Eilistraee somehow stumble through a rift (or whatever) in spacetime, and find themselves in an empty warehouse in Skullport circa 1365 DR. Both know what's coming - the wizard is determined to see his native land preserved from the coming disaster, and the priestess, suddenly reconnected to her goddess, is able to start the warning cycle concerning Cyric and Shar's impending murder of Mystra.
Some things, they know they cannot avert. Toril and Abeir are going to smack into each other, and they know it. But without the violent unraveling of the Weave, the Sellplague never occurs, the damage is far less severe, Returned Abeir materializes in open ocean without displacing Maztica, and the senseless butchering of multiple deities is averted. Unther is likely still vaporized, and High Imaskar still comes into existence at Mulhorand's expense (still gotta shoehorn them dragonborn in, after all), but a vast majority of the things that so distressed Realms aficionados everywhere never come to pass.
Simply retconning it back to proper health would be almost as bad as the way they brought the 4th Edition Realms into being in the first place. I doubt I am alone in saying that if they simply fixed the most pointless and ill-conceived ideas they senselessly threw into the cauldron when they were dismantling decades of lore for spare parts, a lot of people would be a lot happier. I know I would. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2012 : 06:57:26
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| Retcon a retcon? That's not going to please anybody. |
[/Ayrik] |
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WotC is asking for input, so...
Topic Locked
