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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 03:30:41
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In my campaign, the PCs have grown fond of smokepowder* and have even armed a unit of their mercenaries with it. Despite having very good contacts in Telflamm, where they can buy Kara-Turan smokepowder transported by caravan over the Golden Road, they find their supply not secure enough and most of all, not cheap enough.
They actually have the formula needed to make smokepowder and an NPC member of their party is a powerful alchemist and wizard. He has several apprentices and the party also employs alchemists and can hire more if needed.
On the other hand, it is supremely uninteresting to declare that X amount of gold can be transmuted into Y amount of smokepowder. Smokepowder is a magical substance** and ought to require some exotic substances to make it.
I want you, gentle scribes, to suggest some exotic components found in the Forgotten Realms that would logically be useful in creating smokepowder. Body parts from monsters associated with explosions, perhaps? Underdark fungi that explode?
What do the PCs need to adventure for in order so that they can start their own alchemical production lab for smokepowder? They'll need to buy sulphur and suchlike, yes, but what else do they need?
What monsters can blast in a manner that resembles smokepowder? Not pure fire, but concussive blast and fire combined?
As it happens, this happens in 1373 DR and the characters have been attacked more than once by flights of dragons. As such, they could easily use any parts of red dragons that are applicable, but I want there to be more components necessary. After all, smokepowder doesn't just do fire damage, so something has to supply the explosive force.
Ideally, I would like Oil of Impact and the liquid explosive used to power Thayan bombards that appears derived from that to be seperate alchemical creations, made with completely different components. The Red Wizards are happy to supply Oil of Impact at around 450 gp per vial of the pure stuff and much less for the diluted stuff used for bombards, but they have not yet started large scale production of smokepowder and are not likely to do so, as they have an established product in direct competition that is arguably superior.***
I know that Oil of Impact requires, among other things, crushed ox-horn and fingernails from a hill giant. I had also thought to make bombardier beetle fluids necessary to make it. This means that I'll have to find something else for the components for smokepowder.
*More or less as explained in the 2e DMG, but priced based on supply and demand. Prices in the Realms range from ca 200 gp to 4,000 gp per pound, but in Kara-Tur, the pound is only 70 gp. The PCs have been getting theirs for around 200 gp/lbs.
**Though in my Realm, it is made by alchemists who know the formula and have access to the right materials and does not require spellcasting ability. Alchemists in FR clearly take magical materials from nature and make from them magical concoctions. They are not necessarily spellcasters, but rather experts who unleash natural magic from the incredients.
***Well, they argue that it is. For bombards it is more or less equivalent and for blowing up stuff it might even be superior, if not as safe. For personal weapons, it is much less useful, but Red Wizards are fine with that.
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Edited by - Icelander on 18 Nov 2011 04:34:52
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7975 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 09:16:34
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| The search genie will readily inform you that smokepowder has been much discussed at Candlekeep. Here is one scroll which might serve you well. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 09:54:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The search genie will readily inform you that smokepowder has been much discussed at Candlekeep. Here is one scroll which might serve you well.
Yes, I did read that.
While sulphur, charcoal, and potassium nitrate might indeed be some of the components required, those hardly require adventuring to obtain and they, obviously, are not innately magical incredients of the sort needed for Alchemy.
Powdered beholder eyestalk has been named as an example of the sort of hazardous-to-acquire component that could be used to manufacture smokepowder. I need some reason, however, for why beholder eyestalks would have alchemical qualities relating to explosions. Beholders don't explode (that's gas spores) and they don't have any explosive attacks. I guess I could have the Disintegration eye being linked to such a powerful, destructive substance.
All the same, I need more components. A tiny pinch of powdered Disintegration beholder eyestalk is good, but not the only required exotic incredient. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 18 Nov 2011 09:58:13 |
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MalariaMoon
Learned Scribe
324 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 11:57:22
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Hi Icelander,
I know your campaign takes place in the Old Empires; perhaps volcanoes amongst the Smoking Mountains in Unther produce an element specific to the Realms within their craters which could be an ingredient of smokepowder production? Acquiring such an element would be an adventure in itself, as the volcanoes would certainly be home to some fearsome beasts.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7975 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 12:10:03
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As I mentioned in my discussion with scribe Markus in that scroll, I'm rather fond of the (non-canon) ideas that
1) Smokepowder/blackpowder from any origin, any world, will still function (ignite, explode) in the Realms. It's just that the physics (and Ao's Ban) within the Realms imposes some difficulties in the manufacture of more smokepowder, and
2) There are any number of ways to manufacture smokepowder, but they all involve some sort of alchemical magic. The priests of Gond use some spell or ritual (which requires exotic components) upon the otherwise unmixable/inert chemical components we would be able to readily mix into blackpowder on our world. Other formulations could involve alchemical substances which have been exposed to wild magic, elemental fire, or whatever.
I imagine that smokepowder in the Realms is treated something like it was in our early histories ... those kingdoms and nations which possessed the secret formula would guard it jealously. Very jealously. In the Realms this basically means the Church of Gond, Zulkirs of Thay, and empires of eastern Kara-Tur. I also imagine that smokepowder is in truth relatively impure, clumsy, dangerous, and almost as likely to blow up the user as the target; so it has more use as a weapon of terror and diplomacy than in actual warfare. Cosmopolitan adventuring elites through western Faerūn might know much about the uses (and limitations) of smokepowder through actual firsthand experience. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7975 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 12:25:33
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| To add detail to the above ... some kind of spell, ritual, or alchemy is used to produce magical smokepowder. I would personally require the invention (or acquisition) of a new spell and the sort of research involved in magical item creation. This research would, as usual, be much easier if an actual sample of the magical item (ie: smokepowder) was available for study ... of course the downside of duplicating somebody else's existing formula is, as suggested by MalariaMoon, that it might require an unobtainable critical component (like powder ground from rare firecrystals mined only in the Smoking Mountains) which is unique to a specific, and very inaccessible or heavily guarded, region of the Realms. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 18 Nov 2011 13:08:36 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 13:36:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
To add detail to the above ... some kind of spell, ritual, or alchemy is used to produce magical smokepowder. I would personally require the invention (or acquisition) of a new spell and the sort of research involved in magical item creation.
In my game, using GURPS, it's a technique of the Alchemy skill. The PCs have the recipie and the party mage has been practising making small doses, but if they mean to produce it in large amounts, I have to make decisions about the kind of incredients needed.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
This research would, as usual, be much easier if an actual sample of the magical item (ie: smokepowder) was available for study ... of course the downside of duplicating somebody else's existing formula is, as suggested by MalariaMoon, that it might require an unobtainable critical component (like powder ground from rare firecrystals mined only in the Smoking Mountains) which is unique to a specific, and very inaccessible or heavily guarded, region of the Realms.
Firecrystals from the Smoking Mountains... that's actually really useful.
For the binary explosive type of smokepowder given in the DMG, I have been thinking that one powder was made out of charcoal and sulphur mixed with essence of smoke and fire, such as [something that represents smoke and smouldering fire] and something like the fire crystals above or some product from salamanders. The other powder would be saltpeter mixed with something that represented the essence of destruction, such as powdered beholder Disintegration eyestalk. Both would be mixed with graphite and some essence of restraint, something very hard to destroy. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 13:38:31
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quote:
Originally posted by MalariaMoon
Hi Icelander,
I know your campaign takes place in the Old Empires; perhaps volcanoes amongst the Smoking Mountains in Unther produce an element specific to the Realms within their craters which could be an ingredient of smokepowder production? Acquiring such an element would be an adventure in itself, as the volcanoes would certainly be home to some fearsome beasts.
Not unlikely that they do, but would the established recipies make use of them?
The Church of Gond has to have access to all the incredients for one recipie. I suppose that the Kara-Turan recipie might be different, but would use specifically Eastern exotic stuff. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 13:57:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
As I mentioned in my discussion with scribe Markus in that scroll, I'm rather fond of the (non-canon) ideas that
1) Smokepowder/blackpowder from any origin, any world, will still function (ignite, explode) in the Realms. It's just that the physics (and Ao's Ban) within the Realms imposes some difficulties in the manufacture of more smokepowder, and
As manufacturing black powder is a matter of mixing components in a very low-tech manner, it plays the least havoc with my suspension of disbelief to assume that it is the chemical reaction itself which is proscribed, unless some alchemical means are used. Out-of-world black powder will burn on Toril, but not explode, in my games.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
2) There are any number of ways to manufacture smokepowder, but they all involve some sort of alchemical magic. The priests of Gond use some spell or ritual (which requires exotic components) upon the otherwise unmixable/inert chemical components we would be able to readily mix into blackpowder on our world. Other formulations could involve alchemical substances which have been exposed to wild magic, elemental fire, or whatever.
They are not inert, because charcoal and sulphur burn on any world, but when mixed with nitrate they don't explode on Toril. Otherwise, I treat it similarly.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I imagine that smokepowder in the Realms is treated something like it was in our early histories ... those kingdoms and nations which possessed the secret formula would guard it jealously. Very jealously. In the Realms this basically means the Church of Gond, Zulkirs of Thay, and empires of eastern Kara-Tur. I also imagine that smokepowder is in truth relatively impure, clumsy, dangerous, and almost as likely to blow up the user as the target; so it has more use as a weapon of terror and diplomacy than in actual warfare. Cosmopolitan adventuring elites through western Faerūn might know much about the uses (and limitations) of smokepowder through actual firsthand experience.
If someone with the capabilities that Alchemy canonically has in the Forgotten Realms gets their hands on smokepowder, he will soon enough figure out what it's made of. That's not something that you can effectively keep secret for very long. Control of the substances, however, might be different.
Note that the DMG smokepowder is a binary explosive and inert when kept seperately. This makes is much less dangerous than historical black powder. It is also, apparently, rather more powerful, being a very fine-grained powder.
I could postulate a simpler version of it that is not binary and slightly less powerful, that would be cheaper to manufacture. This would be what the Shou Lung military experimented with, but for export the safer to transport version is used. |
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Saxmilian
Learned Scribe
USA
157 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 14:09:00
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| I of course see powdered Red Dragon scales as a requirement even if the damage isnt exactly fire related. As being mostly a "force" effect perhaps the Red Dragon scales-powder must pass through a force effect like a wall of Force or have said spell cast upon them. These are expensive spells and dangerous components and should keep those wizards and alchemists busy and terrified of the creation process |
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Saxmilian
Learned Scribe
USA
157 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 14:10:25
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| LOL figures i didnt see the part about them having access to Red Dragons...well i never claimed to be original, HA! |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 15:44:45
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What creatures or other naturally occuring alchemical reagents that can be found in or near Lantan as well as on the Sword Coast and in the Heartlands are evocative of fire?
I can think of red dragons, fire drakes, remorhazes, dracolisks and maybe hydras (at least the pyrohydra). As for extra-planar creatures, fire elementals, salamanders and azers, I suppose. Fire mephits.
How about fire-associated creatures in Kara-Tur?
What about smoke? What is exotic, but available on the Sword Coast and the Heartlands that symbolises smoke? All I can think of are extraplanar creatures like smoke paraelementals and smoke mephits.
And in Kara-Tur?
The third reagent is something that symbolises destruction. Powdered beholder eyestalk from the Disintegration eye sounds good for one possibility, but what others are there?
Then I need something evocative of durability, endurance, the eternal, changelessness. Diamonds, I suppose, but I'd want something specifically Kara-Turan as well as some other possibilities for varient recipies in Faerun. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 18 Nov 2011 15:53:38 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7975 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 18:28:54
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quote:
Icelander
If someone with the capabilities that Alchemy canonically has in the Forgotten Realms gets their hands on smokepowder, he will soon enough figure out what it's made of. That's not something that you can effectively keep secret for very long. Control of the substances, however, might be different.
I disagree with this. Our chemists can easily analyze materials to determine with great accuracy which molecules and elements are present, even their exact proportions and arrangements and the probable sources of their manufacture or processing. Such testing is typically destructive (that is, the sample is often destroyed or contaminated in the process) so some error can be present if sample sizes are insufficiently small. Biochemical analysis can even duplicate natural processes which encourage genetic material to self-replicate, so even the smallest organic sample can be exhaustively studied when given time.
But medieval alchemists, assuming they parallel those of our own history, would not have access to learned tomes of references indexing properties and values of every known substance, nor would they likely have complete sample collections with which to compare properties (especially not those alchemical substances which are exceedingly rare and expensive, are particularly unstable or toxic, or decay over time), those substances they can procure or produce tend to be impure and inconsistent, even their laboratory methods and instruments are comparatively crude and limited. They live in a world where a counterpart to our table of elements hasn't been organized, where many of the elements have not been identified or discovered, and the interactions between them are poorly understood. At best, our alchemists could understand applications in embalming, medicine, glassmaking, ceramics, and metallurgy; most were more accomplished as charlatans and dilettantes. Add in the mysticism, the occult secrecy and misinformation, the knowledge being hoarded instead of collaborated, the time (in our world wasted) attempting to transmute gold and mix elixirs of immortality, and (in your campaign) the very real complexities of magical influences, lunar phases, and whatnot, and suddenly a routine material analysis becomes as much art as science, results are not reproducible by other alchemists. I submit that your assumption may be invalid. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 18 Nov 2011 18:38:57 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 18:38:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
[quote]But medieval alchemists, assuming they parallel those of our own history, would not have access to learned tomes of references indexing properties and values of every known substance, nor would they likely have complete sample collections with which to compare properties (especially not those alchemical substances which are exceedingly rare and expensive, are particularly unstable or toxic, or decay over time), those substances they can procure or produce tend to be impure and inconsistent, even their laboratory methods and instruments are comparatively crude and limited. They live in a world where a counterpart to our table of elements hasn't been organized, where the elements themselves have not been discovered, and the interactions between them are poorly understood. Add the entire element of mysticism, the occult secrecy and misinformation, and of (in your campaign) the very real complexities of magical influences, lunar phases, and whatnot, and a routine material analysis becomes as much art as science. I submit that your assumption may be invalid.
The Realms are not at a medieval technology level. Trade and international relations are more widespread than at any point until the 19th century on Earth, ships are at 16th century or better, weapons and armour technology is mostly at 15th century levels and so forth.
The alchemists have little in common with medieval alchemists for one important reason. Their craft produces useful concoctions that are consistently reproducable. And Realms products have noted that alchemists can analyse potions and mixtures to discover what they are made of.
Alchemy is far more advanced than it ever was on Earth. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 18:39:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
[quote]But medieval alchemists, assuming they parallel those of our own history, would not have access to learned tomes of references indexing properties and values of every known substance, nor would they likely have complete sample collections with which to compare properties (especially not those alchemical substances which are exceedingly rare and expensive, are particularly unstable or toxic, or decay over time), those substances they can procure or produce tend to be impure and inconsistent, even their laboratory methods and instruments are comparatively crude and limited. They live in a world where a counterpart to our table of elements hasn't been organized, where the elements themselves have not been discovered, and the interactions between them are poorly understood. Add the entire element of mysticism, the occult secrecy and misinformation, and of (in your campaign) the very real complexities of magical influences, lunar phases, and whatnot, and a routine material analysis becomes as much art as science. I submit that your assumption may be invalid.
The Realms are not at a medieval technology level. Trade and international relations are more widespread than at any point until the 19th century on Earth, ships are at 16th century or better, weapons and armour technology is mostly at 15th to 16th century levels and so forth.
The alchemists have little in common with medieval alchemists for one important reason. Their craft produces useful concoctions that are consistently reproducable. And Realms products have noted that alchemists can analyse potions and mixtures to discover what they are made of.
Alchemy is far more advanced than it ever was on Earth.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7975 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 18:53:15
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Those who wish to protect their secret smokepowder formula must have some power to enforce their monopoly, otherwise it wouldn't exist. Perhaps they maintain stranglehold control on some critical element. Perhaps they deliberately designed the formula so this element is required.
Perhaps they apply non-alchemical means instead. Monitor, subjugate, imprison, or kill every alchemist who knows (or might learn) the valuable secret, overtly or covertly. Using the usual methods, plus magical divination and warding, extraplanar informants, control and suppression of alchemical lore, distribution of false lore (which might be sabotaged to cause violent alchemical chain reactions ... or just simply summon an angry fiend/guardian). Your alchemist player may already be named on somebody's imperial list, his efforts may be sabotaged or thwarted, his successes may attract some very unwanted attention. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 19:40:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Those who wish to protect their secret smokepowder formula must have some power to enforce their monopoly, otherwise it wouldn't exist. Perhaps they maintain stranglehold control on some critical element. Perhaps they deliberately designed the formula so this element is required.
Perhaps they apply non-alchemical means instead. Monitor, subjugate, imprison, or kill every alchemist who knows (or might learn) the valuable secret, overtly or covertly. Using the usual methods, plus magical divination and warding, extraplanar informants, control and suppression of alchemical lore, distribution of false lore (which might be sabotaged to cause violent alchemical chain reactions ... or just simply summon an angry fiend/guardian). Your alchemist player may already be named on somebody's imperial list, his efforts may be sabotaged or thwarted, his successes may attract some very unwanted attention.
Before the Time of the Troubles, there was almost no smokepowder in Faerun, so no one could reverse engineer it.
Now, in the 1370s, some few independent alchemists have canonically learned the secret. That's plausible and suggests that there really is no way to keep the secret for ever.
On the other hand, the reagents could be expensive enough so that smokepowder never really becomes very widespread. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 18 Nov 2011 23:41:48 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7975 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 23:07:35
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Smokepowder might be less expensive to produce in quantity, as bulk economy becomes significant; if so then costs would be prohibitive on less than national scales. Assuming such economy is possible where magic and alchemists are involved.
I can imagine a more decentralized smokepowder monopoly, stubbornly maintained at more local levels by some sort of guild. Guild of Gondish Gunners? Alchemists Guild? The secret, or at least the means of production, for smokepowder would then be more widely dispersed yet still somewhat unobtainable for outsiders and individuals unless they have substantial resources.
Many times in our history, starting in the 17th century, various nations placed importance on controlling certain mineral sites where key resources could be mined. Ironically, the militaries of Europe quickly learned that this practice itself was usually an indicator of when their enemy was stockpiling ammunition or had made some new refinement to improve firearm weaponry, since a mercury mine wouldn't normally justify heavier fortifications than a silver mine. Securing gunpowder production sites was a priority even as late as WWII, until new developments (like the Haber process) made alternative production methods available. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 23:41:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Smokepowder might be less expensive to produce in quantity, as bulk economy becomes significant; if so then costs would be prohibitive on less than national scales. Assuming such economy is possible where magic and alchemists are involved.
On the other hand, if one of the components, even one that requires only a small pinch per barrel, can only be gathered by incredibly dangerous adventuring, such economies of scale become much less important. Hence the imporance of determining access to the most exotic components.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I can imagine a more decentralized smokepowder monopoly, stubbornly maintained at more local levels by some sort of guild. Guild of Gondish Gunners? Alchemists Guild? The secret, or at least the means of production, for smokepowder would then be more widely dispersed yet still somewhat unobtainable for outsiders and individuals unless they have substantial resources.
Many times in our history, starting in the 17th century, various nations placed importance on controlling certain mineral sites where key resources could be mined. Ironically, the militaries of Europe quickly learned that this practice itself was usually an indicator of when their enemy was stockpiling ammunition or had made some new refinement to improve firearm weaponry, since a mercury mine wouldn't normally justify heavier fortifications than a silver mine. Securing gunpowder production sites was a priority even as late as WWII, until new developments (like the Haber process) made alternative production methods available.
Alchemical lore as a whole is certainly not widespread. It is firmly oligopolical in nature, being taught in certain guilds and by a few teachers who select pupils at whim. As such, even if an actual monopoly of smokepowder craft cannot be sustained, the secrets are certainly not widespread either.
And yes, I agree that controlling certain natural reagents might be a strategic benefit. On the other hand, before I can make decisions about that for my game, I have to establish what those reagents are. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7975 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 00:25:21
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| Why is it always the eyestalk of disintegration people talk about anyhow? Beholders might be full of useful parts. Perhaps one needs to carefully focus a pyrotechnics spell through the lens of their primary anti-magic eye (which wrecks it) for each batch of smokepowder? Or perhaps liquid distilled from whatever organ they use to levitate might need to act as a catalyst for the propellant? For all I know, a beholder is just a convenient shape from which to mold the proper high-temperature kiln (complete with ducts for oxygen bellows) out of clay. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 17:09:55
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| One thing I'd note is that if you start making your party consider this, the next step in the progression is "so what can I harvest?" off each creature that comes along that they kill. For instance, they kill a displacer beast, maybe its hide is useful in making a cloak of displacement, which is a fairly expensive magic item. After all, when the party's mage makes a magic item, they aren't exactly turning gold into the item. Blood of an invisible stalker might be used for a ring of invisibility. Vampire dust might be used in a wounding weapon. Ground Gorgon horns might be used in all kinds of stone affecting items. This sounds great, until you have to start figuring out how much killing creature X is worth monetarily for the party. Of course, then you have to find buyers, etc.... You could make it a fun aspect of a campaign, even having players becoming skilled in alchemy or maybe survival or some other skill just to preserve the glands from their kills, and other skills to know where to sell components, etc... but you would have to be prepared beforehand to account for the additional cash this offers the party and adjust accordingly. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 17:20:29
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One thing I'd note is that if you start making your party consider this, the next step in the progression is "so what can I harvest?" off each creature that comes along that they kill. For instance, they kill a displacer beast, maybe its hide is useful in making a cloak of displacement, which is a fairly expensive magic item. After all, when the party's mage makes a magic item, they aren't exactly turning gold into the item. Blood of an invisible stalker might be used for a ring of invisibility. Vampire dust might be used in a wounding weapon. Ground Gorgon horns might be used in all kinds of stone affecting items. This sounds great, until you have to start figuring out how much killing creature X is worth monetarily for the party. Of course, then you have to find buyers, etc.... You could make it a fun aspect of a campaign, even having players becoming skilled in alchemy or maybe survival or some other skill just to preserve the glands from their kills, and other skills to know where to sell components, etc... but you would have to be prepared beforehand to account for the additional cash this offers the party and adjust accordingly.
The PCs have always thought 'What can I harvest?'. They're adventurers, after all.
They all know how to butcher monsters and harvest body parts and they have extensive contacts among the Red Wizards of Thay who are usually prepared to buy anything that might be useful in creating magical or alchemical items.
As it happens, they own a merchant house and their liquid assets are numbered in the millions of gold pieces (depending on how the ransom negotiations with Pharoah Horustep go). I am more worried about versimilitude than preserving some artificial cap on PC wealth. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 19 Nov 2011 17:22:16 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 17:31:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
One thing I'd note is that if you start making your party consider this, the next step in the progression is "so what can I harvest?" off each creature that comes along that they kill. For instance, they kill a displacer beast, maybe its hide is useful in making a cloak of displacement, which is a fairly expensive magic item. After all, when the party's mage makes a magic item, they aren't exactly turning gold into the item. Blood of an invisible stalker might be used for a ring of invisibility. Vampire dust might be used in a wounding weapon. Ground Gorgon horns might be used in all kinds of stone affecting items. This sounds great, until you have to start figuring out how much killing creature X is worth monetarily for the party. Of course, then you have to find buyers, etc.... You could make it a fun aspect of a campaign, even having players becoming skilled in alchemy or maybe survival or some other skill just to preserve the glands from their kills, and other skills to know where to sell components, etc... but you would have to be prepared beforehand to account for the additional cash this offers the party and adjust accordingly.
The PCs have always thought 'What can I harvest?'. They're adventurers, after all.
They all know how to butcher monsters and harvest body parts and they have extensive contacts among the Red Wizards of Thay who are usually prepared to buy anything that might be useful in creating magical or alchemical items.
As it happens, they own a merchant house and their liquid assets are numbered in the millions of gold pieces (depending on how the ransom negotiations with Pharoah Horustep go). I am more worried about versimilitude than preserving some artificial cap on PC wealth.
That artificial cap on wealth becomes very important once your PC's start acquiring so much wealth and using their own feats to buff up the part so much that they're tearing through encounters 5 CR higher than what they should. So, then they're leveling way faster than they should. Then, in an attempt to control it, you setup the party to lose items, only to piss off the players themselves. I'm just warning from personal experience... maybe your games go different. I won't say I ever had a hard and fast rule of "the players will get X amount of coin", but the group that started harvesting beasts for money didn't end up finding "a pile of gems and gold pieces buried in the beast's lair" like you see in a lot of dungeons. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 18:46:59
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
That artificial cap on wealth becomes very important once your PC's start acquiring so much wealth and using their own feats to buff up the part so much that they're tearing through encounters 5 CR higher than what they should. So, then they're leveling way faster than they should. Then, in an attempt to control it, you setup the party to lose items, only to piss off the players themselves. I'm just warning from personal experience... maybe your games go different. I won't say I ever had a hard and fast rule of "the players will get X amount of coin", but the group that started harvesting beasts for money didn't end up finding "a pile of gems and gold pieces buried in the beast's lair" like you see in a lot of dungeons.
I don't use the D&D system. It's a poor fit for modelling the Forgotten Realms and it doesn't work for telling any kind of fantasy stories that I'm interested in exploring.
Wealthy PCs have different motivations from poor ones and will get into different adventures, but that isn't a negative thing. If the players seek out wealth and influence in the game, they clearly want to explore those motivations and adventures. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2011 : 22:21:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Why is it always the eyestalk of disintegration people talk about anyhow?
A scribe mentioned that the FRA specified powdered beholder eyestalk and I took him at his word. Now that I look it up I see that it only mentions 'some part of a beholder'.
That being said, I do find the powdered Disintegration eyestalk somewhat interesting. I like the components to have a thematic connection to the effects they have and that is something that is powerfully evocative of destruction.
Other eyestalks would be useful for effects related to the functions of that eye.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Beholders might be full of useful parts. Perhaps one needs to carefully focus a pyrotechnics spell through the lens of their primary anti-magic eye (which wrecks it) for each batch of smokepowder? Or perhaps liquid distilled from whatever organ they use to levitate might need to act as a catalyst for the propellant?
All good ideas, certainly. On the other hand, I see [X that has had Y done to it (possibly at Z time, by a A of B blood)] as more of a magical component than an alchemical one. Alchemy in fantasy is supposed to be about making use of the innate magical natures of some things found in nature.
The levitating fluid is a useful component as well. I seem to recall that I, Tyrant gave it some specific magical purpose.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
For all I know, a beholder is just a convenient shape from which to mold the proper high-temperature kiln (complete with ducts for oxygen bellows) out of clay.
As for that, there has to be an easier way to get a beholder shape than killing an actual beholder.  |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 01:49:51
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I've decided to have several functional recipies exist. The primary ones that I can think of (scribes that recall canonical references to more groups knowing the secret of smoke powder, please feel free to add):
Church of Gond
Shou Lung
Thayans
Zhentarim
Gnomes (as evidenced by the existence of the 'Artificer, Gnome' kit in Demihumans of the Realms)
I had thought that in accordance with the DMG description of the binary explosives, the white powder and the steely-grey granular substance be given seperately.
Church of Gond
Steely-grey part
16% Maztican cedar charchoal
12% Sulphur harvested from an active volcano.
3% Powdered remorhaz heat organs.
2% Essence of smoke mephit breath.
1% Diamond dust coating the outer layer.
White powder
65% Saltpeter extracted from fire bat dung.
1% Powdered beholder Disintegration eye-stalk
Obviously, it is no accident that the Gondsmen are selling their creation at prices substantially higher than what it goes for in Kara-Tur. I'll aim to have the other recipies, at least in some cases, to be attempts to get the same effect at less extreme prices. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 02:10:55
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| Powdered Boomshroom? (Magic of Faerun pp 43) |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 02:52:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Powdered Boomshroom? (Magic of Faerun pp 43)
Very good!
Thank you very much, this is just the sort of advice and assistance from honoured scribes for which I am looking.
I shall certainly include it in a future recipie. Now I need more things that represent:
a) Fire.
b) Smoke.
c) Destruction.
d) Stability, inertness.
Enough to make at least three different recipies, hopefully more. I'd especially appreciate Kara-Turan scholars pointing at stuff that exists only in the Eastern Realms and would be unique to the Kara-Turan smoke powder recipie. |
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore
1965 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 03:02:58
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Fire - Ashes from the nest of a Tshala
I also seem to recall a lizard-man type creature (Firenewt, maybe) that rode on another kind of lizard that spit fire from it's cheeks. I distinctly remember them from 2e, but they may have gotten a mention in Serpent Kingdoms or maybe the Web Enhancement. Some piece of them should not be -too- hard to find. |
Misanthorpe
Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.
"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises
Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out
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Edited by - Fellfire on 10 Feb 2012 03:09:10 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 17:31:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Powdered Boomshroom? (Magic of Faerun pp 43)
Very good!
Thank you very much, this is just the sort of advice and assistance from honoured scribes for which I am looking.
I shall certainly include it in a future recipie. Now I need more things that represent:
a) Fire.
b) Smoke.
c) Destruction.
d) Stability, inertness.
Enough to make at least three different recipies, hopefully more. I'd especially appreciate Kara-Turan scholars pointing at stuff that exists only in the Eastern Realms and would be unique to the Kara-Turan smoke powder recipie.
There were rumors that the Thayans discovered the secret to making smoke powder because a Kossuthan priestess was experimenting with flame salamander semen.... which also explained its rareness and high cost. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2012 : 18:02:10
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
Powdered Boomshroom? (Magic of Faerun pp 43)
Very good!
Thank you very much, this is just the sort of advice and assistance from honoured scribes for which I am looking.
I shall certainly include it in a future recipie. Now I need more things that represent:
a) Fire.
b) Smoke.
c) Destruction.
d) Stability, inertness.
Enough to make at least three different recipies, hopefully more. I'd especially appreciate Kara-Turan scholars pointing at stuff that exists only in the Eastern Realms and would be unique to the Kara-Turan smoke powder recipie.
There were rumors that the Thayans discovered the secret to making smoke powder because a Kossuthan priestess was experimenting with flame salamander semen.... which also explained its rareness and high cost.
I hope she was wearing gloves |
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Interesting components for smoke powder?
