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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 19:29:19
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Hi all,
I am currently flying through the above mentioned trilogy.
in there, it sometimes leaves to me the impression, that monsters we all know - and FEAR - since the first evenings in the realms, like dragons, beholder and illithids are mere cannonfodder.....
well not so much dragons....
especially the scene when the two sisters and their relief army are caught by the phaerimm on their river crossing and hide behind the wall of fire they take to the air, and then kill all illithids and beholders, described:
"so they simply flew up and down the lines until there were no more targets"
also in the rest, beholders and illithids are slaughtered by the dozens..... by literally all participating heroes....
is this just an impression to me, or with anyone else?
no misunderstanding - i love the masterplot for the phaerimm and everything else, just this small bit itches me abit.
looking forward to your comments.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 19:41:56
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The beholders and illithids, yes. But the phaerimm, no. They were vulnerable to darkswords and all types of shadow-based magic, so it makes sense that Vala and her men were able to slay some. The Shadovar, despite their advantage on magical might, suffered terrible losses against the phaerimm.
A certain type of monster would appear that's far from being cannon fodder. A few characters believed those monsters were more powerful than the phaerimm. (I won't spoil it for you, though---unless you're done reading the entire trilogy?) |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 10 Jun 2011 19:43:20 |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 21:03:34
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@hey don't spoil it, i am not finished yet ;)
never said phaerimm are cannonfodder, but beholders and illithids, een for chosen of mystra these are formidable opponents, especially in these numbers.
the phaerimm fielded over 1.000 beholders.... |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2011 : 21:38:51
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Which book and chapter are you reading now? I'd like to discuss some of the beholders' feats against the Evareskans and a certain Chosen, featured in The Siege, which more or less still showed they still are formidable foes. Are you done with that book? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 05:54:15
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-Absolutely. But, a lot of the people who are doing battle with them would be, in D&D, high level, and not major threats to some of those characters, so...
-I think Denning was going for a more realistic representation of things than D&D. Example, in D&D, you aim for someone's head and shoot them, they take X amount of damage, and that's that. Realistically, aim for someone's head and shoot them, and there's brains splattered everywhere. And, that fact that we have large-scale armies made of such creatures, coupled with the fact that we know the "good guys" have to win, and beat said armies, means that a lot of these guys are going to be meeting ends relatively quickly and generically. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 09:40:05
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@karsus:
I agree partially with you.
I love the series, and denning gets the realistic part of his story very convincing.
It is just with having played D&D for such a long time, I hardly doubt it to be THIS easy, even for chosen or high level adventurers, to dispatch dozens of beholders illithids led by a phaerimm so easily as described.
I am saying that it is hard to stay "objective" with all the chars who have been enslaved, eaten, disintegrsated etc. by this kind of monsters.
Even in D&D 3,5, a high level ( 15-18) party would be fairly in trouble with facing 8 beholders, 12 illithids and 30 bugbears in one encounter....
IMHO I tried to imagine that especially beholders and illithids are not having their full potentials ( i.e. using their genius intellect and cunning ) to survive or win their objectives while being mind-slaves. It sometimes leaves the impression of an inexpeirenced, and I mean this in NO way offending to Denning at all, DM, just throwing monsters out of a MM at the party, reducing a beholder or dragon etc. to a stationary spell-cannon or similar. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 10:32:00
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Denning didn't have to follow game rules... That's why at times, you have to treat the game totally differently from the novels, and vice versa. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 14:01:09
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is this not what I said?
my english sucks....
I get confsed since I only read the novels now, and am so loaded with game-expeience, tha the free writing of the autors confuse me. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 16:50:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
IMHO I tried to imagine that especially beholders and illithids are not having their full potentials ( i.e. using their genius intellect and cunning ) to survive or win their objectives while being mind-slaves. It sometimes leaves the impression of an inexpeirenced, and I mean this in NO way offending to Denning at all, DM, just throwing monsters out of a MM at the party, reducing a beholder or dragon etc. to a stationary spell-cannon or similar.
-This is one of the biggest things I didn't like about the series. The basic premise? I liked it. The characters? Liked them mostly. The way that really powerful monsters are just turned into cannon fodder, though? Not so much. Realistically, if the Phaerimm had an army the size books made it seemed like they did, they should have been able to do a lot more damage to the world, in general. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 18:49:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
IMHO I tried to imagine that especially beholders and illithids are not having their full potentials ( i.e. using their genius intellect and cunning ) to survive or win their objectives while being mind-slaves. It sometimes leaves the impression of an inexpeirenced, and I mean this in NO way offending to Denning at all, DM, just throwing monsters out of a MM at the party, reducing a beholder or dragon etc. to a stationary spell-cannon or similar.
-This is one of the biggest things I didn't like about the series. The basic premise? I liked it. The characters? Liked them mostly. The way that really powerful monsters are just turned into cannon fodder, though? Not so much. Realistically, if the Phaerimm had an army the size books made it seemed like they did, they should have been able to do a lot more damage to the world, in general.
What bugged me about the series was the way that other established Realms NPCs, especially those with a reputation for intelligence and/or cunning, simply bumbled about and ignored everything Denning's white hats tried to tell them. |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 19:10:22
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well, when it comes to game terms, the army of mind slaves I absolutely agree wouldbe a terrible force alone.
It states in the series that they have assemlbed over 1.000 beholders and eye tyrants, almost 900 illithids, and literally thousands upon thousands of bugbears ( I am wondering where they hid this population... ).
1.000 beholders...... man this is a force I can only imagine of what they wouldbe capable. Ohh, one thing: they seemingly only use disintegrate and their antimagic ray - none of theother eyestalks.
The beholders seem to be coming from dakspur - the beholder city mentioned in elminsters ecologies in the anauroch entry.
but yes, I also love the story in itself, but as wooly and rupert alrdy said, it is confusing for a long time player of the realms. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2011 : 20:02:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What bugged me about the series was the way that other established Realms NPCs, especially those with a reputation for intelligence and/or cunning, simply bumbled about and ignored everything Denning's white hats tried to tell them.
-Can you give examples? I don't recall much, asides for feeling that Laeral and Khelben seemed a bit "out of place", at the very least, acting like army generals. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 02:53:08
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| I never cared for this series. Though to be honest, any series that deals with such high powered characters for me start off with a strike against them |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 03:21:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
IMHO I tried to imagine that especially beholders and illithids are not having their full potentials ( i.e. using their genius intellect and cunning ) to survive or win their objectives while being mind-slaves. It sometimes leaves the impression of an inexpeirenced, and I mean this in NO way offending to Denning at all, DM, just throwing monsters out of a MM at the party, reducing a beholder or dragon etc. to a stationary spell-cannon or similar.
-This is one of the biggest things I didn't like about the series. The basic premise? I liked it. The characters? Liked them mostly. The way that really powerful monsters are just turned into cannon fodder, though? Not so much. Realistically, if the Phaerimm had an army the size books made it seemed like they did, they should have been able to do a lot more damage to the world, in general.
I don't know what kind of damage you're talking about. But they sure did make a lot of damage to Evareska. It's an elven city protected by one of the greatest mythals in Faerun, plus a number of High Mages. Yet it almost fell against the phaerimm's relentless siege. And it would have fallen, had their neighbors----and of course, Shade--- not intervened. The phaerimm's army managed to wreck havoc, despite the alliance of their enemies. So, to me, it's still realistic. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 04:22:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I don't know what kind of damage you're talking about. But they sure did make a lot of damage to Evareska. It's an elven city protected by one of the greatest mythals in Faerun, plus a number of High Mages. Yet it almost fell against the phaerimm's relentless siege. And it would have fallen, had their neighbors----and of course, Shade--- not intervened. The phaerimm's army managed to wreck havoc, despite the alliance of their enemies. So, to me, it's still realistic.
-With the army the Phaerimm had amassed, asides for sieging and capturing Evereska, the Phaerimm could have conquered all of Myth Drannor (another mythal), and/or made a reasonable march directly against Silverymoon (another mythal), Waterdeep (another site with the powerful magical fields that the Phaerimm fed on), Shade (with their mythallar), or other possible targets- especially given some of the actions that some of those other players. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 04:59:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I don't know what kind of damage you're talking about. But they sure did make a lot of damage to Evareska. It's an elven city protected by one of the greatest mythals in Faerun, plus a number of High Mages. Yet it almost fell against the phaerimm's relentless siege. And it would have fallen, had their neighbors----and of course, Shade--- not intervened. The phaerimm's army managed to wreck havoc, despite the alliance of their enemies. So, to me, it's still realistic.
-With the army the Phaerimm had amassed, asides for sieging and capturing Evereska, the Phaerimm could have conquered all of Myth Drannor (another mythal), and/or made a reasonable march directly against Silverymoon (another mythal), Waterdeep (another site with the powerful magical fields that the Phaerimm fed on), Shade (with their mythallar), or other possible targets- especially given some of the actions that some of those other players.
I have high regard for the phaerimm's might and capabilities. But I don't think they could accomplish such things. You are underestimating the defenses the of the aforementioned realms. Those realms, however ethnocentric they are, would easily form a solid alliance should they recognize that they are fighting a common enemy. And how on Toril could those thousands of bugbears and illithids approach Shade Enclave when the city itself is warded against all forms of teleportation? The phaerimm are not well-versed in shadow magic as to counter those anti-teleportation wards. Heh, they themselves could not teleport within a shadowshell. Also, remember that not all the phaerimm agreed to unleash those massive attacks against Evareska. If you can recall in The Siege, one even tried to reason with the gathered leaders of Waterdeep, Cormyr, and Evareska, saying that he and some of his kin didn't approve of their fellows' aggression against Evareska. This lack of unity alone proved their undoing. They are great magic-users, but they are too few in number, even fewer than the Shadovar, who are powerful wizards themselves. And their armies would almost amount to nothing should Shade, Waterdeep, Cormyr, Silverymoon, and whatever realm the phaerimm foolishly attack, coordinate their efforts to root out the phaerimm. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 05:38:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
What bugged me about the series was the way that other established Realms NPCs, especially those with a reputation for intelligence and/or cunning, simply bumbled about and ignored everything Denning's white hats tried to tell them.
-Can you give examples? I don't recall much, asides for feeling that Laeral and Khelben seemed a bit "out of place", at the very least, acting like army generals.
How about Galaeron trying to warn Vangey, outside of Tilverton? Or earlier, when he tried to get the council in Evereska to act in a way that would have kept the phaerimm contained... Or the way the Lords of Waterdeep failed to do anything intelligent... |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 05:56:30
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| I couldn't argue about Galaeron. Half of what he did was either impossible or stupid, more emphasis on the latter. Of course, I wouldn't deny that my judgement of his character is tainted by my general dislike for his race. |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 12 Jun 2011 06:54:11 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 18:38:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I have high regard for the phaerimm's might and capabilities. But I don't think they could accomplish such things. You are underestimating the defenses the of the aforementioned realms. Those realms, however ethnocentric they are, would easily form a solid alliance should they recognize that they are fighting a common enemy. And how on Toril could those thousands of bugbears and illithids approach Shade Enclave when the city itself is warded against all forms of teleportation? The phaerimm are not well-versed in shadow magic as to counter those anti-teleportation wards. Heh, they themselves could not teleport within a shadowshell. Also, remember that not all the phaerimm agreed to unleash those massive attacks against Evareska. If you can recall in The Siege, one even tried to reason with the gathered leaders of Waterdeep, Cormyr, and Evareska, saying that he and some of his kin didn't approve of their fellows' aggression against Evareska. This lack of unity alone proved their undoing. They are great magic-users, but they are too few in number, even fewer than the Shadovar, who are powerful wizards themselves. And their armies would almost amount to nothing should Shade, Waterdeep, Cormyr, Silverymoon, and whatever realm the phaerimm foolishly attack, coordinate their efforts to root out the phaerimm.
-Whether or not they actually accomplish those things doesn't matter. With the amount of creatures that they had at their behest, and their ability to readily dominate more creatures (in the Underdark and on the surface) to their cause, should they decided to, they could have very easily attempted to siege those places.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
How about Galaeron trying to warn Vangey, outside of Tilverton? Or earlier, when he tried to get the council in Evereska to act in a way that would have kept the phaerimm contained... Or the way the Lords of Waterdeep failed to do anything intelligent...
-I don't remember enough about the specifics. What was he warning Vangey about? I do remember the Lords of Waterdeep being fairly bumbling, and the part about the Phaerimm infiltrating their ranks being very...unrealistic. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 12 Jun 2011 18:40:24 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2011 : 18:49:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
How about Galaeron trying to warn Vangey, outside of Tilverton? Or earlier, when he tried to get the council in Evereska to act in a way that would have kept the phaerimm contained... Or the way the Lords of Waterdeep failed to do anything intelligent...
-I don't remember enough about the specifics. What was he warning Vangey about? I do remember the Lords of Waterdeep being fairly bumbling, and the part about the Phaerimm infiltrating their ranks being very...unrealistic.
I don't recall the specifics, but as I recall, he tried to tell Vangey what would and would not work against the Shades, Vangey ignored him, and the destruction of Tilverton was the result. Much like when he tried to tell the council in Evereska how to repair the Sharnwall.
It's been a while, but the impression I got when reading those books was that only Denning's characters could do the right thing. Between that and the way the Shades were nearly unstoppable in the trilogy, it went a long way towards cementing my dislike of Shade and everything related to it. Subsequent events only made it worse. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Jun 2011 18:51:25 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 00:08:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't recall the specifics, but as I recall, he tried to tell Vangey what would and would not work against the Shades, Vangey ignored him, and the destruction of Tilverton was the result.
-If that's the case, I don't have much of a problem with it, being that Galaeron did have more insight into the strategies and methods that the Shadovar employed, as well as a deeper understanding of the Shadow Weave, and how it interacted with regular magic (in that trilogy) than Vangerdhast- who always seemed to be a sort of stubborn, "I know better than you" person (even if he necessarily didn't). |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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The Simbul
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 01:01:51
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The passage you are referring to (during Chapter Six of The Siege) is not an unfair portrayal of how the battle would have gone. Laeral and Storm alone are vastly more powerful than a dozen nameless (i.e. standard) Beholders and Illithids, and more intelligent.
If anything the novel series over-exaggerated the capabilities of these monsters rather than the abilities of those fighting them, specifically when it comes to the Phaerimm. More specifically, with regard to the notion that ONLY shadow weave magic or silver fire could hurt them.. .
In Phaerimm in 2E had 44% magic resistance (88% against petrification/polymorph) and could reflect (as spell turning) or absorb (as hitpoints) any spell they resisted. In 3.0 a Phaerimm has spell resistance of 15, which increased by +1 for every three levels they took in the sorcerer class. So even if you faced a 40th level Phaerimm sorcerer, they would only have SR of 28something that Khelben, most of the Seven Sisters, and any Elven High Mage worthy of the title could breach. In 3.5 they were upgraded a bit to have SR that scaled with their age category progression yet even at their height a Revered Elder only had SR of 29 and the spells of a 19th level sorcerer.
However the Phaerimm did not bother to show themselves during the skirmish along the river bank, so instead I will focus on the enemies that Laerals relief army did face:
Beholders (CR 13) have 60 hp, AC 20, SV Fort +4, Ref +3, Will +11
Eye Rays: up to three per target, DC of 18 and are virtually negated by a fort/will save (i.e. useless against Laeral or Storm)
Illithids (CR 8) have 44hp, AC 15, SV Fort +3, Ref +4, Will +9, Spell Resistance 25
Mind Blast (60ft cone, DC 17 Will save negates) and a handful of spell-like abilities, all of which are useless against Laeral or Storm.
Bugbears (CR 2) have 16hp, AC 17, SV Fort +3, Ref +4, Will
+5 melee attack (morningstar) and +3 ranged (javelin)
Laeral (CR 34) has 329 hit points, AC 26, Fort +27, Ref +25, Will +27, SR 21, Chosen immunities, ring of freedom of movement, and the ability to negate the powers of any magic weapon that strikes her (not that standard Bugbears, Illithids, or Beholders carry such weapons).
Storm (CR 32) has 328hp; AC 35; SV Fort +29, Ref +24, Will +26. Chosen immunities, spell immunities, and the ability to absorb magic missile, lightning bolt, chain lightning, and ice storm as temporary hitpoints instead of taking damage.
Both of the sisters would automatically succeed their saving throws against Beholder Eye Rays and Illithid Mind Blasts/Psionics unless they rolled a 1, and even in that instance they still have things like luckblades, Tymoras grace, contingency magic, and a vast arsenal of direct and indirect immunities bestowed by their numerous spells, magic items, and Chosen powers, etc.
In terms of their offensive abilities, I will go into further detail below (and the chapter names or describes several of the killing spells they used anyways). Needless to say they have more than enough magic to deal with the elite enemies on the battlefield, and their spell save DCs and damage dice can quickly overcome the saving throws, hitpoints, and defenses of said aberrations.
In terms of the overall battle itself: A dozen Waterdhavian wizards or sorcerers, armed with wands of wall of fire (CL10), would be capable of sustaining the defensive line during the entire the river crossing, and replenishing it once a beholder dispelled it (technically magic is NOT dispelled by their antimagic cone, it is only temporarily suppressed and resumes once the antimagic effect ceases or is moved). The wall of fire would instantly kill any Bugbear warrior that crosses the line (2d6 +10= 16 average), and Laerals presumed "transmute rock to oil" spell sealed the fate of any lucky skirmishers who make it through. The only way this defensive line could have been dispelled for any length of time is if the Phaerimm directly intervened to dispel it, which would reveal their location to the sisters. This in turn would have sealed their fate and enable their Phaerimm army to be routed by merely "decapitating" it (i.e. killing its mind-controlling masters).
Beholders may be deadly against a small group of mid-low level adventurers in a confined dungeon, they are not as effective against a small army of low level opponents on a wide open battlefield. Their slow flight and large size make them perfect targets for swarms of arrows, and they will be spotted (and be within bow and spell range) long before they are close enough to make use of their ray/cone attacks. Being able to fire three single eye rays in one direction at up to three targets does not amount to an advantage against massive number of lower level enemies. If they use their eye rays they will be blasted to death with a handful of spells, and if they use their antimagic cone they will be assailed by a swarm of arrows, slings stones, alchemists fire, etc. 60 Hitpoints does not last long and a 20ft flight speed does not offer much in the way of retreat options.
Illithids need to be in close range to use their mind blasts, their only option at medium range is telepathy + suggestion/charm against a single opponent each round. They simply would not get close enough to make the most use of their talents and much of their effort was probably spent forcing the bugbears to push through the wall of fire.
Storm and Laeral spend about 15 minutes (150 rounds) sweeping up and down the battle lines killing off Beholders and Illithids with their spells. Laerals staff has up to 50 charges of chain lightning, each of which can kill a Beholder or Illithid outright as a primary target, and vaporize 19 bugbears as secondary targets (or critically wound another Beholder or Illithid). Laeral also has a vast repertoire of spells and magical abilities and items at her disposal, and likely brought more in preparation for the march.
Storm has vast number of spells per day as a sorcerer, bard, and Harper scout. While her spellcasting class levels are lower compared to the rest of the Chosen, her magic is more than potent enough to handle Beholders and Illithidswhom are normally slain by 8-13th level adventurers. Hold Monster can take Beholder while dozen Uthgardt archers pepper it with arrows, and with her spontaneous use of magic missile combined with her high AC, HP, and saves she can be a virtually unassailable flying artillery platform. It is also assumed Laeral could lend her one of her the many wands, rods, or staves she would have brought with the army to handle weaker fodder enemies. Alternatively she simply could have planted herself in the midst of the battlefield, with her melee skills and AC making her imperverious to the bugbears, and her saving throws and magical protections shielding her from the Beholders and Illithids. Her tiara would protect her from the flames and if she became wounded Laeral could simply strike her with chain lightning from her staff to heal her, then have the secondary bolts vaporize any nearby enemies surrounding her.
It is also worth noting that IF it came down to it, once the Beholders and Illithids were slain the sisters could have simply killed the entire army of Bugbears on their own using nothing but melee attacks, saving their remaining offensive spells and abilities to kill the Phaerimm if they arrived or revealed themselves. Granted it did not come to that, but I mention this fact merely to demonstrate the comparative scales of power in this scenario.
The only real threat to the sisters on the battlefield would have been the antimagic eyes of the beholders, yet even then it is a win-win situation for them. Within the antimagic field they are still impervious to the attacks of the (hidden) Phaerimm and the beholder eye rays, and even if the illithids can use their psionic mind blasts within the field (by the rules they cannot) the sisters still have strong enough will to effortlessly make their saving throws without magic. They also still have their massive number of hit points and superior melee abilities, allies to call upon, and Silver Fire.
Long story short, sending armies against Mystras Chosen is typically a losing endeavorat least if the year in question is before 1384 DR.
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 01:50:41
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@simbul:
again, I have to repeat that my intention is not coming through seemingly.
what you state might be true, although I would not say that illithids and beholders are only a match for mid-level groups. What I was saiyng is, that according to years of playing, it tales a bit of the feeling away to see beholders, which i think every player or fan of the realms considers hard enemies, not at last for their intelligence...
might be from stats that it is possoble, if the go face to face in spll or other duel, but that is the point. these monsters are intelligent, and they would start looking for other solutions to get ir of enemies of this kind.
I disagree iwht your melee opinion, at some point even in game terms, they would just be grapled down with aid another actions, ropes or similar. no matter how mighty, even the chosen have limited actions per round.
this is what i loved for example about the cormyr series, vandergahast, alusair, and azoun, all of them were mighty chars also by their stats, but they STAYED mortal beings - as a re the chosen.
maybe the chosen are super.heroes bu even they can not kill hundreds of monsters charging at them in single rounds, their flight spells being suppressed again and again by the antimagic rays, axes and spears and arrows hitting on a roll of 20, which can, given the numbers of the army, and them being the only targets for the enemy army behind the firewall, would also drown their HP quite fast. - my opinion.
Bottom line is, I think basically chosen could have achieved the task, eventually, but by far no this easy, and it should have been described a bit better -
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 04:17:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't recall the specifics, but as I recall, he tried to tell Vangey what would and would not work against the Shades, Vangey ignored him, and the destruction of Tilverton was the result.
-If that's the case, I don't have much of a problem with it, being that Galaeron did have more insight into the strategies and methods that the Shadovar employed, as well as a deeper understanding of the Shadow Weave, and how it interacted with regular magic (in that trilogy) than Vangerdhast- who always seemed to be a sort of stubborn, "I know better than you" person (even if he necessarily didn't).
Vangey's been around for a while, and he's certainly an intelligent person. I think he's intelligent enough to trust in the advice of someone who has dealt with an unknown foe, as opposed to assuming one thing and one thing only will work. Someone who's been around for as long as he has, who makes plans within plans and who has made a habit of navigating and manipulating the conspiracies of others, is not going to bet everything on one single gambit, especially with potentially good advice being freely offered. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 04:31:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Vangey's been around for a while, and he's certainly an intelligent person. I think he's intelligent enough to trust in the advice of someone who has dealt with an unknown foe, as opposed to assuming one thing and one thing only will work. Someone who's been around for as long as he has, who makes plans within plans and who has made a habit of navigating and manipulating the conspiracies of others, is not going to bet everything on one single gambit, especially with potentially good advice being freely offered.
Vangey didn't trust and wouldn't trust Galaeron. That's how simple it is. Galaeron was once unknowingly tricked by an archwizard (Melegaunt) into doing what the Shadovar wanted all the while. How could Vangey guarantee that what Galaeron was giving---a free, seemingly sensible advice---was something not fabricated by the shades for Galaeron to believe and spread among their enemies? Wise he might be, but Vangey had seen enough of Galaeron's mistakes (though the elf didn't mean half of them) to doubt whatever advice Galaeron had to offer, no matter how good it might have appeared to be under his thorough scrutiny. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3737 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 05:25:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Vangey's been around for a while, and he's certainly an intelligent person. I think he's intelligent enough to trust in the advice of someone who has dealt with an unknown foe, as opposed to assuming one thing and one thing only will work. Someone who's been around for as long as he has, who makes plans within plans and who has made a habit of navigating and manipulating the conspiracies of others, is not going to bet everything on one single gambit, especially with potentially good advice being freely offered.
Vangey didn't trust and wouldn't trust Galaeron. That's how simple it is. Galaeron was once unknowingly tricked by an archwizard (Melegaunt) into doing what the Shadovar wanted all the while. How could Vangey guarantee that what Galaeron was giving---a free, seemingly sensible advice---was something not fabricated by the shades for Galaeron to believe and spread among their enemies? Wise he might be, but Vangey had seen enough of Galaeron's mistakes (though the elf didn't mean half of them) to doubt whatever advice Galaeron had to offer, no matter how good it might have appeared to be under his thorough scrutiny.
-Along the lines of what I was saying. Vangerdhast- and rightly so, given the fact that he's a high level magician who studied under Elminster, and is the Royal Magician of Cormyr- seems very much the type to think he has a situation under control, and to know best, based on his own planning, musings, experience, and so on. If someone has information to share that Vangerdhast, based on his own experience, might be shaky, or possibly even outright incorrect, he'd probably be willing to hear it- possibly to appease whoever he is talking with- but is probably less likely to actually use that information. In the end, his mind is probably settled, unless that information is semi-reliable, and dictates that his strategy should be changed. I know a bunch of people like that, possibly including myself!  |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 05:53:41
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Possessing a wisdom squeezed from centuries of experience doesn't guarantee one to never make a mistake. Heh, even Elmister, Vangey's former teacher (and role model?), sometimes makes mistakes. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 11:03:48
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| I'll agree that the possibility exists that Vangey might have opted to not listen to the lone voice of experience that presented itself... But I find it unlikely. And when you put it together with one person always being right, and other, supposedly wise or intelligent people refusing to listen to him every single time, it becomes unbelievable. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2011 : 11:30:45
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Every single time is clearly an exaggeration. Vangey once listened to Galaeron, or at the very least, considered that he could be right. That's when the elf presented to him the shadow silk and explained that it effectively trapped heat from the sun and that it's what the Shadovar were using to melt the High Ice. Vangey studied it, and not understanding it fully, decided to play a "game" with Prince Rivalen when the shade came to take Galaeron. He and Alusair mentioned about Cormyr's "supposed" practice of not allowing the accused to be taken until dawn of the next day. He did it to test Rivalen; to see if the prince lied; if Galaeron was right. And he proved the latter. So just because there were a lot of times that he didn't listen to Galaeron didn't mean he never did. He's wise and old enough to weigh things and try to see the truth in them; but he was not omniscient and therefore vulnerable to committing mistakes. |
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Return of the Archwizards - too much splatter or??
