Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Mythals and Mythallars
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe

124 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2011 :  06:27:56  Show Profile Send Saer Cormaeril a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hi Scribes!
I was inspired to do some reading on mythals and mythallars after the discussions in a recent scroll. I have a few questions, please share your thoughts!

Why do you suppose that mythals cause energy drain, whereas mythallars mitigate energy drain?

Why did the Netherese choose to contain the central energy sphere of their mythallars in crystal, while the central energy sphere of mythals are woven in space?

Lefebers Weave Mythal is a really cheap, easy way to build a *huge* mythal, though the Netherese caster of this spell is bound to a longer ritual (3 days).
Nearly 500 years later, though even the *idea* of the mythal is long lost (to all but the Srinshee, High Court Mage Lord Earynspieir, Lady Ahrendue Echorn, who have *heard* of them), Mythanthor begins to research this advanced mantle magic.

Since Netheril was raising mythals well before Mythanthor developed his wizardly mythal, do you think that the magical theory was related?

Also, when was the first Faerunian mythal raised? Anyone know?

Well, thanks for reading, and thought you have on the subject will be greatly appreciated!


Edit I'm guessing the first mythal was the Dracorage mythal, yeah? And the second was Myth Adofhaer?

Brace Cormaeril

Edited by - Saer Cormaeril on 26 May 2011 06:38:25

Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2885 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2011 :  12:58:07  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril

Why do you suppose that mythals cause energy drain, whereas mythallars mitigate energy drain?


-Best analogy I can think of is that a mythallar is a battery, whereas a mythal is plugged into the outlet. Why this is, I can't tell you. Maybe because mythallars are more similar to magical items than on-going spells, like mythals are similar to. That's just a guess on my part, though.

quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril

Why did the Netherese choose to contain the central energy sphere of their mythallars in crystal, while the central energy sphere of mythals are woven in space?


-Different magical traditions and development. Also note, mythals need some kind of physical capstone that anchors their power. The Evereskan mythal, for example, is anchored on the statue of Aerdrie Faenya. The Dracorage mythal had it's capstone in the keep far to the north, where the ritual was first enacted thousands of years ago.

quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril

Also, when was the first Faerunian mythal raised? Anyone know?

Edit I'm guessing the first mythal was the Dracorage mythal, yeah? And the second was Myth Adofhaer?



-The first Elves came to Faerūn around -27,000 DR, and weaved the Dracorage two-thousand years later, in -25,000 DR. So, as we have the information, that'd be the first mythal, yeah. In -5,300 DR, the Elves of Siluvanede erected the mythal over Adofhaerande, renaming it Myth Adofhaer. That's the next canon mention of a mythal being raised. In the roughly 20,000 years in the in-between, some of Faerūn's greatest Elven empires, such as Aryvandaar and Ilythiir, rose into greatness and fell in ignominy. While nothing official ever said that any mythals were raised, I find it likely that, during the heyday of these- and other- powerful Elven empires, mythals were raised elsewhere as well.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 26 May 2011 13:01:39
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14022 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2011 :  14:20:57  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kinda odd, eh, that the very first Mythal appears to be the most powerful? Normally, things don't work like that... not at all.

Also, it makes no sense for extremely long-lived folk to loose some of their tech over time. The Elves were never 'nuked' back into a stone-age culture.

I would hazard to guess that it somehow relates to their Fey nature and the diminishing aspect of Fey in general. In other words, the further they become removed from their Fey heritage, the less potent their High (Fey) Magic becomes. On the other hand, it could simply be a 'civilization in decline' phenomena, like we see in Asimov's Foundation series (a super-advanced society incapable of reproducing many of the devices they were using), rather then anything metaphysical (as in, relating to their nature).

Hopefully Ed/THO will chime-in with some info in this thread as well.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 May 2011 14:23:25
Go to Top of Page

Kilvan
Senior Scribe

Canada
892 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2011 :  14:42:13  Show Profile Send Kilvan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Kinda odd, eh, that the very first Mythal appears to be the most powerful? Normally, things don't work like that... not at all.




The first electrical light bulb by Adolphe Chailet, a rival of Edison, is still working to this day, more than a century after its creation. Sorry for the off-topic comment, that just struck my nerdiness .

The point is, maybe the first Mythal wasn't worth the ressources necessary (time, number of über-high casters, material, etc). The 'new' mythals may be weaker, but maybe they are more optimal in a ratio of results/ressources.

Oblivion loomed on every side, the offspring lived, basking in the realization that each moment could be the last moment.
--This was the beauty of chaos
--This was the beauty of Lolth
--This was the doom for all, but one

Quote from "Extinction"

Edited by - Kilvan on 26 May 2011 14:42:46
Go to Top of Page

Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2885 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2011 :  14:43:39  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Kinda odd, eh, that the very first Mythal appears to be the most powerful? Normally, things don't work like that... not at all.

Also, it makes no sense for extremely long-lived folk to loose some of their tech over time. The Elves were never 'nuked' back into a stone-age culture.

I would hazard to guess that it somehow relates to their Fey nature and the diminishing aspect of Fey in general. In other words, the further they become removed from their Fey heritage, the less potent their High (Fey) Magic becomes. On the other hand, it could simply be a 'civilization in decline' phenomena, like we see in Asimov's Foundation series (a super-advanced society incapable of reproducing many of the devices they were using), rather then anything metaphysical (as in, relating to their nature).



-Eh. It could be that, since it was erected so early in the Elves' history in Faerūn, their methods were closer to their "original" ways, used in the Plane of Faerie (if such things were indeed created there, which I doubt they weren't, because the Elves had to first learn to craft them somewhere).

-Also, keep in mind the reason for the first mythal on Faerūn. It had to encompass the entire planet, influence Dragons, and last for a long, long time. It had to be badass. A minor mythal designed to encompass a specific manor, or whatever? No reason for it to be so powerful and badass.

-And, in a way, the Elves kind of were "nuked". Not technically, but. With everything that happened during the Crown Wars, with Ilythiir and Aryvandaar achieving great heights of magic, but abusing them, and using it in bad ways, I could see a general Elven consensus that X is bad, and thus, should be purposefully forgotten, thus "resetting" a lot of magical development, on the part of the Elves. That's what the Olin Gisir are for. I'm probably the only one, but when I was a kid, I liked to read Sonic the Hedgehog comics. In it, the Echidnas (Knuckles' people) were very technologically advanced, and used their technology to make the area they lived on a floating island, powered by a Chaos Emerald, to avoid catastrophe at the hands of a comet (think Netherese Enclave, making it surprisingly relevant, actually, on multiple levels). Anyway, one brilliant scientist became corrupted, and absorbed some of the power of the Chaos Emerald, and became evil. He was banished, and yada, yada, yada, but the Echidnas realized the evils that science could produce, and sealed away all their technology. In a similar fashion, after the Crown Wars, general Elven consensus could have been that the application of so much powerful battle magic and High Magic had devastating, and often negative effects, so it's research and application was 'toned down' and purposefully 'forgotten', resulting in more recent applications of the same magic not being as powerful/grand/whatever. Nothing canon, of course, but conjecture.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium

Edited by - Lord Karsus on 26 May 2011 14:45:53
Go to Top of Page

Snowblood
Senior Scribe

Australia
388 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2011 :  15:43:16  Show Profile Send Snowblood a Private Message  Reply with Quote
speaking of mythals....you forgot about the Waymeet...the Greatest mythal ever laid on Toril outside of Evermeets great shields.

Aryvandaar, Ilythiir, Arnothoi, Orva, Sarphil, Anauria/Asram/Hlondath, Uvaeren, Braceldaur, Ilodhar, Lisenaar, Imaskar, Miyeritar, Orishaar, Shantel Othrieir, Keltormir, Eaerlann, Ammarindar, Siluvanede, Sharrven, Illefarn, Ardeep, Rystal Wood, Evereska are all available here for download:http://phasai.deviantart.com/gallery/
Go to Top of Page

Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2904 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2011 :  15:47:48  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I know some of Snowblood's pdf's mention ancient Mythals(probably homebrew). Also BRJ's Sharn article mentions a Mythal IIRC. IIRC the article on Chessenta mentions an ancient Mythal. Wasn't there a scroll with a list of known Mythals around here somewhere?

Check out whats in the Methwood...

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep

Edited by - Brimstone on 26 May 2011 16:19:25
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14022 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2011 :  16:30:44  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You may have missed my point, LK. Ford didn't build a Ferrari first, and the first naval vessel in history wasn't a nuclear aircraft carrier.

As for their Fey heritage - I am personally leaning more toward this. I feel the first Elves would have practiced their Fey magic (which was more powerful in many ways, but also more erratic and therefor dangerous), before they became accustomed to the Weave. Obviously 'Elven High Magic' is non-Weave based, because the very first example we have of it is in Tintageer, in Faerie. Also, if Elves came from the Fey (which I believe is canon now), and the Fey existed on Abeir-Toril before Ao split the world (which is canon per tGHotR), then Fey magic is canonically non-Weave based and it makes sense that the early (non-Torillian) Elves/Eladrin would have used those same rituals and magic.

Furthermore, if the connections between the Feywild (and other planes) and Toril wax and wane in their strength - as some of the 4e lore points to - then it makes sense that the power of the ancient Elven High Magic would also wax and wane, and during the low-powered periods (when Faerie was not in conjunction with Toril), they may have lost quite a bit of their knowledge (practitioners dying-off, with no young Elves bothering to learn a 'lost art').

I do not think the Crown Wars would have 'nuked' Elven magitech, simply because too many of them survived. If anything, the wars would have created a 'nuclear escalation' scenario (as war always does), and the magic coming out of the wars should have been far greater then going in. War has a way of doing that to technology (and by extension, magic tech).

However, I can think of several fantasy/Scify examples of what you proposed with the Oily Geezers. Both Larry Niven's Known Space novels (with the famous Man/Kzin wars), and my favorite Well World series, war-tech was 'locked away' because humans are just too damn good at it (both of those series, BTW, came out of the 'Nuclear Disarmament' era, and were probably influenced thusly).

So anything is possible.

EDIT: And I think Mythals exist in the Feywild, simply because High Magic comes from there (IMHO), and it just seems like something the Elves would have gotten from the Fey.

This would also help explain why this type of magic has become less powerful (or, at least, less fashionable), as Elves move further away from their heritage. The Weave is basically a shortcut to power, and they would have embraced it over time.

Here's food for thought: What if Tintageer had a Mythal, and somehow THAT was responsible for it's sinking (in a HAL/Skynet/I, Robot kinda way)?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 May 2011 17:24:26
Go to Top of Page

Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2885 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2011 :  17:12:59  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

You may have missed my point, LK. Ford didn't build a Ferrari first, and the first naval vessel in history wasn't a nuclear aircraft carrier.


-But, we agreed. You said that those earlier mythals could have generally been more powerful because the Elven race's general connection to the Plane of Faerie was still "fresher", and their specific magical rituals less "corrupted" by extra-Plane of Faerie things. I agreed. Unless I'm still misunderstanding what you mean- which I don't think I'm doing, based on what you said.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I do not think the Crown Wars would have 'nuked' Elven magitech, simply because too many of them survived. If anything, the wars would have created a 'nuclear escalation' scenario (as war always does), and the magic coming out of the wars should have been far greater then going in. War has a way of doing that to technology (and by extension, magic tech).


-I meant it metaphorically, as in, like you used in your example, a kind of nuclear detente, where, after the Crown Wars, the general Elven race realized how dangerous some of their more powerful war spells and High Magic rituals could be, and willingly, voluntarily "forgot them", so that they'd never be unleashed on the planet again. Of course, groups like the Olin Gisir would "remember", but they'd ensure that the general Elven populace, as well as everyone in general, would not be able to muck around with those kinds of things. You'd then get a few thousand years of layaway between documented uses of Elven High Magic. In those thousands of years, it's plausible that more was "forgotten", and fewer Elven High Magi existed, resulting in, generally speaking, rituals that didn't seem as impressive as those that used to exist.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

EDIT: And I think Mythals exist in the Feywild, simply because High Magic comes from there (IMHO), and it just seems like something the Elves would have gotten from the Fey.


-Yeah, they'd really have to. The Dracorage mythal was weaved not too long after those specific Wood Elves came to Realmspace. We know that those who crafted the spell stole some Draconic magical lore, but we've never associated mythals with Dragons before. It's more likely that they used whatever Draconic lore they stole to augment their mythal to affect only Dragons, and that the mythal-weaving lore, Elven High Magic, was something they brought with them from the Plane of Faerie. I don't see it as very believable that they'd come up on their own such a powerful High Magic tradition, given that the Elves at the time were basically decentralized renegades hiding from the powerful Dragon Barons of the era.

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Here's food for thought: What if Tintageer had a Mythal, and somehow THAT was responsible for it's sinking (in a HAL/Skynet/I, Robot kinda way)?



-Well, we know that Tintageer was destroyed because of High Magic backlash. I don't think that that backlash came from weaving a mythal around the island. Generally speaking, mythal laying rituals seem to be backlash free. Not impossible, but I don't think that's very likely.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14022 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2011 :  17:57:30  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah.

I was just saying that the Elves having 'better magic' early-on seems weird, and then I went on to postulate at least two ways that such a scenario would make sense. In other words, I feel that saying the greatest Mythal ever woven was the first one seems a little strange, unless certain things are explained (which is what us fans do, when official explanations are lacking )

In the RW, tech progresses forward under normal circumstances, unless there are mitigating factors (civilizations falling, or monolithic religions suppressing knowledge, etc). In a fantasy/Scify setting, however, we can theorize about the 'losing touch' factor that is often prevalent in such fiction. Also, if you believe all the hype about mythic Atlantis, there may even be at least one RW case of the 'losing touch' with one's technological heritage (which extends to magic in this discussion). If a group loses touch with it's homeland - for whatever reason - they will most-likely devolve intellectually within a few generations.

I recently re-read the excellent Lucifer's Hammer, which is a VERY scary scenario about how quickly civilization would devolve. I highly recommend it (if you don't mind losing sleep at night). Considering how few Elves were involved in that escape from Tintageer, I find it hard to believe that they weren't reduced to near-animal levels then.

quote:
Originally posted by Lord Karsus

-Well, we know that Tintageer was destroyed because of High Magic backlash. I don't think that that backlash came from weaving a mythal around the island. Generally speaking, mythal laying rituals seem to be backlash free. Not impossible, but I don't think that's very likely.
My point about the possibility that the Elves caused their own demise shoe-horns into prior theories on the same subject. Suppose the Mythal was 'programmed' to "preserve the Elven way of life at all costs" - would the pseudo-intelligent Mythal decide the best thing for the elves (at that point in time) was to force them to migrate to Toril? If Elven High Magic (Fey Magic) can tap-into power across time (which I theorized about elsewhere), then why couldn't the Mythal 'foresee' the need for Evermeet and sink Tintageer to set in motion a series of events that would benefit the Elves/Eladrin in the long run?

That's pretty far-fetched, I must admit, but I figure I'd just throw that out there as food for thought. I just like to think that the elves were playing with forces they barely understood (High Magic in general), and as usual, things didn't turn out as they planned.

Perhaps the Elves don't have the connection to 'nature' (the primal forces of the universe) that the Fey have, and although they possess the knowledge, they lack the wisdom to know when not to use it (something the Fey themselves probably had to learn some hard lessons about). Maybe the Fey (Le'Shay) look at the Elves the way Elves look at humans: like children playing with the toys of gods. Wouldn't that be a kick in the head?


"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 May 2011 18:00:49
Go to Top of Page

Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe

124 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2011 :  18:19:11  Show Profile Send Saer Cormaeril a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How prevalent were Netherese mythals, back in the Arcane Age?

I know that there are some enclaves that had multiple mythallar, but even the simplest Netherese mythals were over a mile in radius. Those cast by more powerful arcanists would have been over two miles in radius! And Netherese mythal do not seem to age (and become corrupted), the way that elven, wizardly, mythal do.

Oddly, my reading of the Arcane Age, and later material, leads me to analogize mythals and mythallar *opposite* to the usual. Mythallar seem more like 'power outlets'; they directly tap the Weave, and are permanent. They use the Weave, instead of 'life-force' to bind magic.
Elven (wizardly) mythal, on the other hand, are more like organic batteries; they seem to 'capture' magic, and run down, eventually. They require a great expenditure of 'life-force' to raise, and are dependent upon the oscillation of 'life-force' in the mythal and the 'life-force' of the area in which they are bound (like two regions of a battery).

Either way, these two types of wizardly construction seem more similar to me than they are different, particularly when one takes 3e sources into account (City of Splendors: Waterdeep pg. 109-111, but this may just be my perspective. Thanks to all for your thoughts!

Brace Cormaeril

Edited by - Saer Cormaeril on 26 May 2011 18:46:46
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14022 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2011 :  21:19:39  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fairly prevalent - every flying Enclave had one (although I don't agree with Lord Karsus that ALL enclaves had them - I think that was just a Netherese term for 'colonies').

There are actually at least three types - High Elven Mythals, Netherease Mythallars, and Elven Arcane Mythals.

I also feel both the 'wards' in the North and the Godwall of Imaskar are related magics - the wards being an 'in-between' creation developed from personal mantles, and the Godwall being the ultimate example of what can be accomplished with mantle-style magics.

Drow Spell-webs (around their Noble Houses) are also related (stronger then wards, but less effective then a mythal).

Mantles themselves were developed from stacking 'hanging' spells (as per EG).

All magic is related - you just have to broaden your vision to see all the relationships.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page

Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe

124 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2011 :  22:20:20  Show Profile Send Saer Cormaeril a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm with you, MT. I'm referring to *Netherese mythal*, those created with 'Lefebers Weave Mythal".

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Fairly prevalent - every flying Enclave had one (although I don't agree with Lord Karsus that ALL enclaves had them - I think that was just a Netherese term for 'colonies').

There are actually at least three types - High Elven Mythals, Netherease Mythallars, and Elven Arcane Mythals.

I also feel both the 'wards' in the North and the Godwall of Imaskar are related magics - the wards being an 'in-between' creation developed from personal mantles, and the Godwall being the ultimate example of what can be accomplished with mantle-style magics.

Drow Spell-webs (around their Noble Houses) are also related (stronger then wards, but less effective then a mythal).

Mantles themselves were developed from stacking 'hanging' spells (as per EG).

All magic is related - you just have to broaden your vision to see all the relationships.


Brace Cormaeril
Go to Top of Page

Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1074 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2011 :  00:17:36  Show Profile Send Nicolai Withander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As far as I know, there are more than one type of Mythal. "true/High" Mythal and Wizard Mythal. No true/high mythal have been laid down or cast since the death of Mystryl, and that can contribute to the power of them as well. Since true mythals were considered lvl 10 spells in game mechanics. Whereas wizard mythals are lvl 9.

Further I have some comments to the tread.

1) I have trouble understanding how magic can function outside the weave or shadow weave. What source does it derive from? IMHO I believe the reason as well for the "lessoning" of magic power of the mythals to be the ban and the ever sharpening of rules governing magic set down by Mystra 1.0 and 2.0.

2) I don’t believe the creation and invention of mythals to only come from the fey. I do believe that the Sarrukh can have a contributing factor. They should have the knowledge of the mechanics or the creation.

3) About the "forgetting" of knowledge... Well in real world history as pointed out, nations have disappeared into nothingness. How did the Egyptians create all of the intricate things they did and so on, but i believe it more to be a purposeful hiding of knowledge or power like stealing the nether scrolls. Im sure that where ever it is, there is a cache of magic knowledge so potent that even the likes of Karsus (where he alive) or Larloch would go "GOD DAMN"... That kind of knowledge equals power for whom ever wields it. And so, it remains hidden. I do not believe anything to be "forgotten" by the elves. No way Jose.

4) Another reason for the first mythal being so powerful was perhaps because it had to resolve a very specific problem, whereas many "nowadays" cover s wider range of parameters. This could be one of the problems. Like when creating magic items. The more effects the higher level required, but if you want the item to do only 1 thing, than you can put i higher level effect into it. If you guys understand my metaphor?

5) Concerning the original question, it is my believe that a Mythallar is the crystal from whence the raw magic is filtered into a mythal that expands the floating city. So as far as I understand the difference is that a Mythallar creates a mythal. I might be totally wrong, but I hope not. The reason for Netheril, creating the Mythallars, was that IMHO they did not have the knowledge or skills of magic that elves had.


I think this was everything :)

Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14022 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2011 :  17:19:13  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I concur on the 'specific purpose' theory you propose.

If a Mythal can contain 100 Mythalons (a fake unit of mythal measurement), and each effect must be allocated a certain amount of these 'mythalons', then 100% of the Dracorage Mythal's power can be allocated to just driving dragons insane.

And, of course. there is also the other factor you mentioned - the more effects you wish to stack into something, the higher level you need to be (which puts most uber-mythals well out of reach of mortal ability). The power levels required expand exponentially.

Good call.

Further... the Fey were a creator race, as were the Sarrukh. It would sense if all the Creators had access to this strange, ancient 'location magic' involved in the original high Magic Mythals. Since we know that the Creators existed before Ao sundered the first world, it makes some sense that that type of magic - dealing with specific physical points in the universe - would have been greatly effected when the world was torn apart. I would imagine pre-Sundering Mythals to have been insanely powerful (especially since they drew from Raw, pre-Weave power sources).

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page

Saer Cormaeril
Learned Scribe

124 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2011 :  18:40:36  Show Profile Send Saer Cormaeril a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

I concur on the 'specific purpose' theory you propose.





Are you referring to this, MT?

quote:

After having read a lot about mythals and mythalars in the last few days, heard the opinions of many scribes and Ed himself, I've come to believe there is little difference between mythals are mythallars; and that the difference is primarily in how they were implemented. There are more similarities between Elven High Magic mythals, Netherese mythals, Elven wizardly mythals, and Netherese mythalar than there are differences, in my opinion.

Brace Cormaeril
Go to Top of Page

Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2885 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2011 :  07:30:50  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Ah.

I was just saying that the Elves having 'better magic' early-on seems weird, and then I went on to postulate at least two ways that such a scenario would make sense. In other words, I feel that saying the greatest Mythal ever woven was the first one seems a little strange, unless certain things are explained (which is what us fans do, when official explanations are lacking )


-Also, keep in mind that it was the first mythal created on Abeir-Toril, and that it was the first mythal that we know about. That doesn't mean the art of mythal crafting was new. The history of Elves on the Plane of Faerie goes back as far as you want it. No reason to think of mythals as anything foreign there, like we've said. So, if the art isn't foreign there, no reason to think it hasn't been 'perfected', for a lack of words, either.


quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

My point about the possibility that the Elves caused their own demise shoe-horns into prior theories on the same subject. Suppose the Mythal was 'programmed' to "preserve the Elven way of life at all costs" - would the pseudo-intelligent Mythal decide the best thing for the elves (at that point in time) was to force them to migrate to Toril? If Elven High Magic (Fey Magic) can tap-into power across time (which I theorized about elsewhere), then why couldn't the Mythal 'foresee' the need for Evermeet and sink Tintageer to set in motion a series of events that would benefit the Elves/Eladrin in the long run?


-Again, it just seems very out there and improbable. If the best thing was for Elves to leave Tintageer for elsewhere, there probably would be more cost effective ways to do that, also, without causing a large, substantial portion of her population to die- survival of the fittest, in a way, but that would also put into jeopardy them surviving. Say the priestess who used her power to transport the survivors of Tintageer to Realmspace never made it? Or not enough arrived in the gathering spot to fuel the ritual? And so on.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
14022 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2011 :  17:33:03  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, that was certainly not a theory I believe in - just a germ of an idea I'd share (more of a random thought, really - who knows what sort of decisions the AI of certain contingency magics would make?)

I do not think it was the first Mythal, and I've said above I do believe there were Mythals in the Feywild. I personally feel that field-effects magic were first developed on Abeir-Toril (which I think encompassed more then just Abeir or Toril), and brought to Faerie... or rather, that Faerie itself may have been the first Mythal created within the Feywild (and now I am likening Mythals to godly domains and demi-planes).

A myhtal may be the closest thing a mortal can get to creating a domain. If you couple a mythal-effect with a pocket plane, you have something akin to a proto-demiplane. Didn't the Star Elves create something like that?

quote:
Originally posted by Saer Cormaeril

Are you referring to this, MT?
Actually, I was referring to this -
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander

4) Another reason for the first mythal being so powerful was perhaps because it had to resolve a very specific problem, whereas many "nowadays" cover s wider range of parameters. This could be one of the problems. Like when creating magic items. The more effects the higher level required, but if you want the item to do only 1 thing, than you can put i higher level effect into it. If you guys understand my metaphor?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

Go to Top of Page

Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2885 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2011 :  18:49:53  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

...and now I am likening Mythals to godly domains and demi-planes).


-I don't know if I'd go that far. Boiled down to it's most basic functions, without the flowery prose and lore, all a mythal is is a field of magic where certain magical effects and contingencies are constant. A lot of things can produce those kinds of effects. Obviously, when you add the lore and everything back, mythals are that, but on a much grander and important scale, but...

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

A myhtal may be the closest thing a mortal can get to creating a domain. If you couple a mythal-effect with a pocket plane, you have something akin to a proto-demiplane. Didn't the Star Elves create something like that?


-The Sildėyuir. That was created using 'normal' Demiplane production methods, as far as established lore says.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
Go to Top of Page

jerrod
Learned Scribe

157 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2013 :  19:31:57  Show Profile Send jerrod a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Keep in mind much knowledge was lost when the great mages died making ever meet,and only one in one hundred survive the trip from tintager.elves had to relearn the art and adapt the knowledge the gained from the nether scrolls to approach the level of power they use to have before the dragon wars .also after they used highmage to kill hundreds of dragons at one time,the strength of the weave was damaged to the point were high magic killed The mages who attempted to wield it most of the time. And last the assassination campaign waged by the vyshan against other highmages all contributed to the lost of knowledge. By the way some knowledge isn't lost...just forbidden on the pain of death,which includes most of the war mythals of aryvandaar.the darkelves lost their highmages to revenge missions against the gold elves after the fall of myeritar and the their banishment.those that remained died trying to compete with the clergy of lolth in the under dark.

I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic
Go to Top of Page

jerrod
Learned Scribe

157 Posts

Posted - 22 Jul 2013 :  19:48:38  Show Profile Send jerrod a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have to wonder if the netherese learned about quasi magic creation from the drow.considering the parallels,and the fact that iolaum had extensive experience with the under dark. Food for thought.

I haven't been here in years but I used to be DARKFLAME MILLITHOR(DROW ARCHMAGE of wildmagic
Go to Top of Page

TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1458 Posts

Posted - 24 Jul 2013 :  06:33:13  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jerrod

I have to wonder if the netherese learned about quasi magic creation from the drow.considering the parallels,and the fact that iolaum had extensive experience with the under dark. Food for thought.

Aye. So far, quasimagic (as in, use of secondary power sources) was done in noticeble quantities by Netheril, Drow, some guys on Mystara (Dynamo of Flying, Internal Conjuration Engine / Radiation magic / Nithian pyramid power as a divine variant) and various designs from spelljamming sources.
Oh, also one novel mentioned (after much foreshadowing in earlier sourcebooks) a drow-made quasimagic power source of a type different from both spellfields. As in, not the fixed effects of a mythal, but free-to-tap, yet not in the way mythallars are used and not making all magical creatures around jump. That thing under Raven Bluff, of course. It was just a bit glitchy... and built in the middle of a city, so given what headache it caused even on surface, down there it was at least as bad as around the Guardian's Tear, so they didn't stay there much longer to experiment on the beta version.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch

Edited by - TBeholder on 24 Jul 2013 18:48:18
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2017 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000