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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
499 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 19:53:26
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Well, I figured this was the best forum to ask this in. Anyways, so let me get this straight: Only (prestige) classes with this ability protect against sneak attacks, and so if only a prestige class protects against this, then only PrC levels count towards such?
I was just thinking in terms of two different characters. Let's say you have a Dwarf Fighter 10/Dwarven Defender 10 and a Human Rogue 10/Shadowdancer 10. Both PrCs give their respective characters Improved Uncanny dodge, however the Human's Rogue levels do as well while the Dwarf's Fighter levels don't. If both were to be simultaneously attacked by two lvl 20 rogues (one attacking each character from behind), would only the Human Rogue/Shadowdancer be immune to a sneak attack?
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Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 20:20:47
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IIRC correctly, getting doge twice from multi-classing the dodges stacked into/
quote:
Uncanny Dodge (Ex)
Starting at 4th level, a rogue can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so. She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.
If a rogue already has uncanny dodge from a different class she automatically gains improved uncanny dodge instead.
So I got stacking incorrect, however a normal character can get get get Improved Uncanny Dodge by multi-classing without a prestige class.
Barbarian gets it. So a rouge/barbarian can get it *G*
Edit: This does infer 3.5 rules - not sure about 4th |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 13 Apr 2011 20:48:31 |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
499 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 01:00:05
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| Well, that doesn't quite answer the major part of my question: Would a Dwarf Fighter 10/Dwarven Defender 10 be subject to sneak attacks by a lvl 20 rogue? |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 01:10:55
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| The dwarven defender could be sneak attacked against while the Rogue/Shadowdancer wouldnt because the levels stack. |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
499 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 02:24:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
The dwarven defender could be sneak attacked against while the Rogue/Shadowdancer wouldnt because the levels stack.
Once again, Diffan, you come to my aid 
But yeah, that's what I don't get. Unless a Dwarven Defender gains a high-hp, high-attack bonus base class with (improved) uncanny dodge, then they're screwed against a rogue. Granted, Dwarven Defenders might be one step closer to doing everything except make toast if they had a method of negating sneak attacks against lvl-20+ rogues. I mean, you're far more likely to find a Dwarven Defender with levels in Fighter or (namely in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting) Paladin than you would Ex-Barbarian or Rogue.
It just reeks of unfairness to some degree that a real bulwark of a character can still be caught from behind even in a full-scale battle and potentially be helpless. Granted, no character is meant to be invincible or anything like that, but something just seems a hint unbalanced about it to me. |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 02:39:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
Once again, Diffan, you come to my aid
But yeah, that's what I don't get. Unless a Dwarven Defender gains a high-hp, high-attack bonus base class with (improved) uncanny dodge, then they're screwed against a rogue. Granted, Dwarven Defenders might be one step closer to doing everything except make toast if they had a method of negating sneak attacks against lvl-20+ rogues. I mean, you're far more likely to find a Dwarven Defender with levels in Fighter or (namely in the Forgotten Realms campaign setting) Paladin than you would Ex-Barbarian or Rogue.
It just reeks of unfairness to some degree that a real bulwark of a character can still be caught from behind even in a full-scale battle and potentially be helpless. Granted, no character is meant to be invincible or anything like that, but something just seems a hint unbalanced about it to me.
Well you have to take into effect that even 20th level rogues have a hard time consistantly hitting extreamly high ACs with their attacks. I'm suspecting a Dwarven Defender not even having that far a drop in their Flat-footed AC or a rogue gaining that much of a benefit with Flanking. And take into account that the rogue is also designed for a slew of other non-combative things so that might not be the #1 choice of many Rogues.
I, OTOH, build rogues for straight DPR and my 1st rogue character (swashbuckler 3/rogue 6/swordsage 1) was dealing somthing like 90 to 115 DPR which I thought was impressive  |
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Galuf the Dwarf
Senior Scribe
USA
499 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 17:52:09
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| Well, after doing some calculations, it is possible that a lawful-aligned Dwarf rogue could possibly become a Dwarven Defender, and in the Forgotten Realms, that could possibly happen with Citadel Adbar's Deepscouts. In that case, they could possibly have a Rogue/Dwarven Defender who delves with them as well as protect them, though that might only be if they expect trouble. |
Galuf's Baldur's Gate NPC stats: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8823
Galuf's 3.5 Ed. Cleric Domains: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14036
Galuf's Homebrew 4th Edition Races: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13787
Galuf's Homebrew Specialty Priest PrCs: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=14353
Galuf's Forgotten Realms Heralds and Allies thread: forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8766 |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4429 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 18:28:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Galuf the Dwarf
Well, after doing some calculations, it is possible that a lawful-aligned Dwarf rogue could possibly become a Dwarven Defender, and in the Forgotten Realms, that could possibly happen with Citadel Adbar's Deepscouts. In that case, they could possibly have a Rogue/Dwarven Defender who delves with them as well as protect them, though that might only be if they expect trouble.
Well rogues aren't restricted by alignment, so there's no "rule" reason why Rogues can't be Lawful Good or even Lawful Neutral etc... Its just an assumption that because you can sneak attack people, have stealth skills and pick pocketing that you'll automatically be a criminal or at least less responsive to Lawful tendencies and that just isn't true. One could even point to various examples that Batman is indeed a Rogue as he stalks bad-guys, wears light armor, and gets the drop on his opponents to take them out in one swift attack. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 18:45:58
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Well said, Diffan. It's really all about motivation: when you rob from the rich, do you give to the poor or yourself?
Also, mechanically, I suspect dwarven defenders get the improved uncanny dodge in order to minimize the number of dabblers who can actually sneak attack them. You've got to be a seriously experienced rogue to get the drop on them.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 18:52:24
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Always to yourself. Those lazy gits should get a job. 
Like robbing from the Rich. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Question concerning Improved Uncanny Dodge
