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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 04:36:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
A tribe clan exists among the orcs. Maybe just family, maybe imitating elves or dwarfs, oh even human. There again what is so good about being human ( Zent and Tray come to mind) ? Humanoid as orcs, elves are clearly would have some human patterns. You want orcs to be something like slimes and modes? There are other monsters out there that fit that terror. Elves are a terror to many, humans are a terror to many, and dwarfs are a terror and always at war with orcs.
Which of these races would you claim are pretending to be human?
Actually, I prefer treating intelligent monsters in a slightly more complex manner than as walking XPs. Orcs have family units, individuals who have other occupations than as warriors (because it is impossible without powerful magic for any society to exist without sources of food, for one thing) and a culture.
On the other hand, orcs are canonically more predisposed than humans toward violence and murder. In my game, I treat that as indiviuals usually having poorer impulse control, higher incidence of mental disorders leading to violent behaviour and fewer inhibitions about using violence to get their way. This is partially genetic (or part of their divinely-created nature, if you prefer) and partially cultural.
Since 'usually neutral' humans living in hunter gatherer societies suffered from endemic warfare, I see 'usually [lawful] chaotic evil' orcs as being even more trapped by their violent natures.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I would wait an answer however I suspect it is along the line already posted. Orcs were always something to kill and how dare any consider that indeed they have their out culture and laws.
What prevents Intelligent humanoids from building a kingdom, their skin color?
A very violent human tribal society is extremely unlikely to change within one generation into a peaceful kingdom. People are bound by their cultural prejudices, their background and their history.
For Obould to make a kingdom out of savage orcs living in frozen mountains was a truly remarkable feat of leadership, equivalent to the greatest historical figures of our world. For him to completely change the nature of his subjects and make the kingdom more peaceful than most human kingdoms (what newly formed human kingdoms in our world have ever lasted a century without a war?) would be the equivalent of a Viking chief unifying Norway and instead of fighting a series of wars against all his neighbours, instead jumping over some 800 years of history to become peaceful. It would be, to put it mildly, amazing. And it would ignore the lore about orcs being even more violent than humans.
I don't mind stories where a heroic orc is fighting against his own nature and the biological and cultural factors that have trapped his people in a neverending cycle of death and defeat. I mind a story where the factors that led to this cycle are removed by authorial fiat and the dramatic conflict is removed. Orcs that are simply differently coloured humans don't provide any storytelling opportunities that humans don't already. |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 05:55:17
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The OP asked how orc kingdoms survive, given that they're portrayed as subsistence level hunter-gatherers, and such a system could not provide sufficient food to support a large kingdom of orcs. Can we assume, just for the sake of being able to move on, that his question is for DMs who agree with the premise, and who consider it desirable to advance their orcs beyond the hunter-gatherer stage of development?
What are some good ways to do that?
This isn't much, but it's what I've written up so far about the orcs of Thar. They are not a kingdom, per se, but I wanted to peg their economic development so I could think about how they could be forged into a kingdom. Currently, they are at about the level of the Picts, who were sufficiently troublesome to the English.
Thar is moorland, which is a very marginal type of land, agriculturally speaking. It's not the best place to grow crops, but plenty of things grow there. Herd animals, especially ones adapted to the conditions, can thrive very well on moorland. Although the orcs have hunted the native deer and antelopes to near extinction, they've brought in their own herd animals to replace them, primarily sheep and rothé. These are tended by goblin slaves, who are overseen by the orc females. The herds provide meat, milk, hides, and wool. The orc females also gather roots, plants, berries and honey when those things are in season to round out the diet of the orcs*. A few tribes have plots of arable land where they grow grain, which they use to make beer.
The orcs, especially those along the Glister road, also make a living through raiding caravans, or, when it's more convenient, taking tribute in exchange for not raiding the caravans. The orcs might keep the goods, or they may sell them to unscrupulous merchants from Melvaunt, or another Moonsea city. Although it's against Melvauntian law to purchase such goods, the ban is not strictly enforced.
The orc tribes near the Ride raid the human barbarians who live there, bringing away slaves and horses when they can. The barbarian captives are often sold to Melvauntian slave merchants. Captives taken from caravan raids are ransomed if they are sufficiently wealthy. Although Melvaunt does a brisk business in slaves, and will purchase other humans captured by the orcs, there are laws against enslaving a citizen of the city unless he has been convicted of a crime. Therefore, only the most wicked Melvauntian merchants will purchase the captives taken from a caravan raid to keep as slaves. Such slaves are contraband, and the penalty for being caught with them is either death or enslavement. The orcs sell unransomed captives to the humanoids of the Galena Mts where they may find themselves working in a mine, or taken to some unknown fate in the Underdark. They very rarely keep humans as slaves, both because goblins are more manageable and because they've found in the past that keeping a large population of human slaves makes them a target of raids by humans.
*I picture the orcs as being omnivores--preferring meat, but willing to eat just about anything organic. Meat does not get too rank for them to eat, and maggots only add to the flavor. They will, however, smoke meat to store over the winter, just to keep the maggots from eating all of it.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 10:34:10
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If a kingdom cannot offer something to trade, some sort of goods or services which a prospective trading partner would want to buy, then it really isn't looking for trading partners at all, it's looking for military allies. What goods or services could a new kingdom of orcs possibly offer? Orcs have never before been described as mercantile, they have traditionally simply taken what they want, the strong would prey upon the weak, they never minted coins so whatever coinage they might've possessed was invariably taken from somebody else.
Orcs have been described in ways which suggest they are excellent miners. Many sources have claimed orcs possess great aptitude in producing weapons, even if they forge blades which are "crude" they must surely be able to quickly learn how to refine their craft. A problem is that the traditional racial nemesis of orcs, the dwarves, are already well established (virtually dominate) all of the markets which require mining, construction, and forgeworks.
Orcs could serve as hunters, soldiers, mercenaries, police, and guards. Of course, they are perhaps overinclined towards violence so may not serve all these capacities as well as others. What non-orc kingdom would dare gamble its security and safety by replacing its military with a force of orcs? Whether true or not, whether it's in their blood or something that can be changed, orcs are (rightfully) known for being bullies and for their questionable loyalty - questionable, that is, to everyone (including each other) who is not strong, unwaveringly loyal only to Gruumsh (and even that is in question insofar as Obould's orcs would be concerned).
I can't see a lot of human or demihuman nobility encouraging intermarriage between their children and orcs to reinforce political bonds. I am accused, in essence, of being a racist because I feel orcs are simply incapable of becoming civilized. But is anyone here offering to marry their son or daughter to an orc?
Obould might be a genius, he might be charismatic and compelling, and he might even be right. How long will his kingdom survive without reverting to normal orcish ways after he is gone? I see an almost naive treatment of Many Arrows, the fiction asserts that the actions of but a handful of epic heroes can forge an empire, while I would think (using non-fiction as my guideline) that the stresses within this kingdom would be insurmountable ... let alone the viewpoints (like my own) shared by neighbouring non-orc kingdoms. And even if these non-orc kingdoms could be enlightened, embracing the orcs of Many Arrows as equals, I very much doubt that other orcs from outside Many Arrows would ever relinquish their hatred.
So what does Many Arrows trade? Metals they mine from the mountains? In exchange for food and other necessities, plus of course the decadent trappings of "civilized" society? How long could such an arrangement be sustained? If they cannot even feed themselves they are vulnerable, and sooner or later, somebody who doesn't like them will realize and exploit that vulnerability. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 16:13:23
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Here's my take on it (posted on the WotC boards as well):
I am personally intrigued to see orcs evolve beyond their hunter/gatherer/raider society into something more settled, organized, and (ultimately) stronger. If one considers that the end state of such a civilization is to be strong enough to defeat one's neighbors, then this is perfectly in line with the goals of Gruumsh, albeit in a fashion he hasn't explored much in the past.
Not to compare FR too closely to our own world, but history teaches us that while a nation can exist on the basis of raiding and fighting alone, it can't ultimately compete with a nation that invests in agriculture, animal-raising, and "working together" the way successful human kingdoms can. The orcs have finally just taken a page from the human playbook, and it's working out for them.
Also, Many-Arrows is not necessarily the first orc kingdom to crop up in the Forgotten Realms, though it might well be the most persistent and successful one. It is to the humans' detriment and the orcs' advantage that the so-called "higher races" don't think they can thrive as a real kingdom.
On a final note, I find it both not surprising and also very appropriate that RAS is exploring an orc kingdom as a theme. His Drizzt series has always been about racism to one extent or another, and his work with Many-Arrows is an extension of that. Note that I'm not saying conforming to another race's social norms is a good thing, but it's refreshing to see orcs treated as something other than brute savages.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I've said it before: if you keep humanizing all the monsters in D&D then one day there'll be no monsters left. And when there's no monsters left to kill, heroic people will have nothing left to kill except each other.
I find this point compelling, though I think maybe that's a good thing.
Traditionally, monsters exist in fantasy as a representation of evil (think Grendel or any of the Greek mythology monsters, etc), and on a metafictional level as metaphors for the struggles that we face in our daily lives. To an extent, they aren't supposed to be human.
RAS broke this wide open with Drizzt back in 1989, turning what is otherwise a terrible species of monsters (drow) into something deeply flawed but human. And in the more than 20 years since then, fantasy fiction has been pushing into that--showing us the human aspects of the dark mirror. It allows us to write and read about heroes of what we would consider savage/evil heritage, who struggle against the path set before them by their past and society and become--in so doing--heroes.
And I find the message compelling, that there are always consequences to violence, and one should never think that it's completely justified because it's against a non-thinking, non-being--a monster--rather than against something that has every right to exist that you do. And it's just as feasible that a person can become a monster, through his/her own actions and motivations.
This jeopardizes the escapist character of speculative fiction, but I think it also enriches the genre and allows for some really, really good work, like Martin's Song of Ice and Fire, or Kemp's Erevis Cale series, etc. Fantasy is replete with pieces that go both ways (monsters-as-people vs. monsters-as-monsters vs. people-as-monsters), so I think there's something for everyone.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
My point was simply that if we meant to discuss the Realms, we ought to keep the new lore, confusing and inconsistent with the past, out of it.
There is no way to rationally reconcile the new Realms with the old.
I obviously disagree with this, but I'm not going to discuss it. I just wanted to state that for the record, so that my participation in this thread doesn't seem to suggest I am in some way supporting anti-4E sentiment.
I am always available via PM (though my mailbox does fill up rather quickly) or email (erikscottdebie AT yahoo DOT com) if anyone wants to discuss this subject.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 16:21:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I can't see a lot of human or demihuman nobility encouraging intermarriage between their children and orcs to reinforce political bonds. I am accused, in essence, of being a racist because I feel orcs are simply incapable of becoming civilized. But is anyone here offering to marry their son or daughter to an orc?
No one's accusing you of actually being racist against a non-existent fantasy species. 
It's a question of where one draws the line.
quote:
Obould might be a genius, he might be charismatic and compelling, and he might even be right. How long will his kingdom survive without reverting to normal orcish ways after he is gone? I see an almost naive treatment of Many Arrows, the fiction asserts that the actions of but a handful of epic heroes can forge an empire, while I would think (using non-fiction as my guideline) that the stresses within this kingdom would be insurmountable ... let alone the viewpoints (like my own) shared by neighbouring non-orc kingdoms. And even if these non-orc kingdoms could be enlightened, embracing the orcs of Many Arrows as equals, I very much doubt that other orcs from outside Many Arrows would ever relinquish their hatred.
We just haven't seen much material on what the kingdom is like now. It could certainly have at least survived this long, but you can bet it's breeding its share of internecine tension and potential schism inside its borders. I have no doubt the kingdom hangs by a thread, simply because it hasn't existed in such a form for more than a few generations. Granted, orc lives are far shorter than human lives, so it's been more (I seem to think 5-6 generations?), but that isn't enough to establish a really strong kingdom that looks at "peace" as its tradition.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 16:25:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I am personally intrigued to see orcs evolve beyond their hunter/gatherer/raider society into something more settled, organized, and (ultimately) stronger. If one considers that the end state of such a civilization is to be strong enough to defeat one's neighbors, then this is perfectly in line with the goals of Gruumsh, albeit in a fashion he hasn't explored much in the past.
100% agreement with this. On the other hand, the 4e 'Realms' setting posits Obould as an evil exarch of Gruumsh-as-Talos and his nation of Many Arrows as not having gone to war with its neighbours for a century.
Building a strong state so that you can defeat one's neighbours is to the glory of Gruumsh. That is what Obould did at the end of 3.x. Not making use of that strong kingdom over the next 100+ years is, however, antithetical to the lord of storms and destruction.
The Gruumsh-as-Talos of 4e is not a god that would support Many Arrows as a peaceful kingdom committed to mutual coexistence. The move from savage hunter gatherers who raided their neighbours as a way of life to a unified kingdom with a superior track record in keeping the peace with neighbours to any historical medieval or pre-modern kingdom in less than a single generation is not plausible for humans in our world. For a race established as 'usually evil' and led by a religious fanatic serving a god of destruction, it is beyond any bounds of plausability. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 22 Nov 2011 16:30:53 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 16:51:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
We just haven't seen much material on what the kingdom is like now. It could certainly have at least survived this long, but you can bet it's breeding its share of internecine tension and potential schism inside its borders. I have no doubt the kingdom hangs by a thread, simply because it hasn't existed in such a form for more than a few generations. Granted, orc lives are far shorter than human lives, so it's been more (I seem to think 5-6 generations?), but that isn't enough to establish a really strong kingdom that looks at "peace" as its tradition.
Remember what Harold Wilson said, 'a week is a long time in politics'.
The period between 1372 DR and 1479 DR is around five human generations, no less than four. At orcish breeding rates, we could conservatively call it eight generations.
Now, eight generations is a long time. For example, some living Americans can trace eight generations back to the founding of that nation. Eight generations is approximately the time between the belligerent Sweden and mercenary-mad Switzerland of the 18th and 19th centuries and the staunchly neutral nations that they later became. Eight generations, to put it mildly, will prove more than sufficient for the population to regard the current form of government as 'the way things have always been'. Some orcish historians might recall that they once were warriors, but that would be all.
The dramatically interesting period and the period where things could (should) have gone wrong for Obould and his successors was immediately after the establishment of the Kingdom of Many Arrows. By simply jumping over those struggles, the dramatic impact and the plausibility of Obould's feat suffer enormously. Quite simply, there is no way that the Kingdom of Many Arrows could have been formed in a war of conquest and then simply transformed itself into a peaceful state without several generations of struggle and wars, both internal and external.
The only nations in human history that have managed to avoid becoming entangled in foreign wars for a whole century have either been without neighbours or too busy killing each other to manage it. A couple of decades of peace has been a major accomplishment for most of history. It makes no sense to have a culture where war has been the only method of advancement, the source of masculine self-identity and a consequence of biological imperatives and state that all that changed in a few short years.
The United States is still a young nation, but it is lucky enough to be founded in high principles, by people who are not 'usually evil'. Even so, how many century long periods in its history has it been peaceful? |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 17:24:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
My point was simply that if we meant to discuss the Realms, we ought to keep the new lore, confusing and inconsistent with the past, out of it.
There is no way to rationally reconcile the new Realms with the old. The orcs of 3.x were different from the old, yes, but not as different as that entirely new species that 4e calls orcs.
I'm in agreement with this as well.
quote:
I know that WotC has ruled that new lore trumps older lore, but for my part, I prefer to shoot for internal consistency. Lore that can fit alongside the great mass of material that collectively makes up the Forgotten Realms is the lore I'll use.
The subject of this specific scroll is how the orcs of Many Arrows manage to survive. It is possible to give one answer for the species that Ed called 'orcs'. That is the one I gave, i.e. that they presumably employ the numerous prisoners captured in their wars as slaves and learn from them to farm, ranch and so forth.
It may be possible to provide another answer for the 4e race known as 'orcs', but I'm not competent to give that answer. At any rate, it is not going to be the same answer.
In addition to slave labor, I would imagine that the weakest members of their society (really old orcs, really young orcs, very weak orcs, females way past breeding age) probably also engage in farming of some sort. It's perhaps these individuals who oversee the day-to-day activities of the slave populations. Or perhaps they engage in the "gathering" part of hunter-gatherer work. They could also emulate ranching, in the sense that the drow also keep rothe and humans keep cows and goats.
Trade would also be of interest, in order to obtain necessities that they cannot obtain on their own land. And the northern cave-lands are pretty bleak. Metalworkers and miners are likely, even trading gemstones that are found.
The new kingdom also strikes me as a good opportunity to bring in the other orc deities that have always been extremely downplayed if not outright ignored by many sourcebooks. Perhaps the greatest deity remains Gruumsh/Talos, but he is evolving as well. We have seen before how different societal beliefs in human populations can literally change a deity. Why not for Gruumsh? War deities often begin as barbarous, murderous entities, then gradually evolve toward complex strategist war gods. If the other orc deities are perhaps "just" aspects of Gruumsh as well, he might see a larger "pantheon" as something to expand his set of portfolios, range, and powers.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 19:36:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
No one's accusing you of actually being racist against a non-existent fantasy species.
In someways I implied it. I though always went with NPCs are people as well. Foes always exist, be it Drow, Orc, Kobold (still trying to figure out how they became Dragons) and so on, even Green Slime is just trying to live their life.
There always are many dangers out there, that do not require something like "Oh it has pointed ears, kill it." |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 19:47:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
In addition to slave labor, I would imagine that the weakest members of their society (really old orcs, really young orcs, very weak orcs, females way past breeding age) probably also engage in farming of some sort. It's perhaps these individuals who oversee the day-to-day activities of the slave populations. Or perhaps they engage in the "gathering" part of hunter-gatherer work. They could also emulate ranching, in the sense that the drow also keep rothe and humans keep cows and goats.
In my Realms, because the barren lands that orcs have usually been confined to do manage to produce the periodic raiding hordes that emerge from them every generation or so, it has been obvious to me that there have always been orcs who are not primarily warriors, but who do other work that is vital for survival.
Orc males are hunters as well as raiders, obviously, but there is not nearly enough game to support the immense numbers of orcs that some hordes have canonically had. What does that mean?
In my Realms, it means that female orcs cultivate fungi and other crops that will grow in mountain caverns and the occasional highland glen. They gather nuts, berries, herbs, roots and a variety of other things, but natural selection ensures that the orc tribe whose females take care to maximise the output of the lands near their caverns is more likely to survive during times of overpopulation than the next. Thus, orc females have become quite adept at tending their 'crops'. Orcs keep rothe, goats and any other animals that they manage to steal, with the young and females doing most of the herding.
Slaves, both orcs taken in tribal wars, other demihumans obtained on raids and weaker members of the orc tribe who nevertheless have the useful skills and temperament to submit to a stronger orc do a variety of useful work. As long as someone produces more food, or valuables that can be traded for food, than he eats, a sensible orc will try to keep him alive instead of killing and eating him.
Orc tribes usually trade among themselves and even with some neighbouring demihuman settlements. If they didn't, they'd be at proto-Stone Age technology and that doesn't fit canon.
So, even in the 1e and 2e Realms, orcs aren't just ravening monsters. On the other hand, their culture is canonically more violent than Viking culture and the people of Scandinavia and Iceland did not suddenly stop engaging in warfare within less than a generation of the height of the Viking era and maintain that peaceful posture for a century. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 22 Nov 2011 19:48:08 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 21:46:46
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In general, I think it's more useful to look for explanations for something, rather than just say it's implausible and give up.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I am personally intrigued to see orcs evolve beyond their hunter/gatherer/raider society into something more settled, organized, and (ultimately) stronger. If one considers that the end state of such a civilization is to be strong enough to defeat one's neighbors, then this is perfectly in line with the goals of Gruumsh, albeit in a fashion he hasn't explored much in the past.
100% agreement with this. On the other hand, the 4e 'Realms' setting posits Obould as an evil exarch of Gruumsh-as-Talos and his nation of Many Arrows as not having gone to war with its neighbours for a century.
Building a strong state so that you can defeat one's neighbours is to the glory of Gruumsh. That is what Obould did at the end of 3.x. Not making use of that strong kingdom over the next 100+ years is, however, antithetical to the lord of storms and destruction.
I wonder if you're selling Gruumsh (and his exarch Obould) a bit short here. He really can't play the long game?
Not going to war with one's neighbors does not mean "peaceful." They could have fought a number of internal civil wars (let's say 8, one for each generation), and none of that would involve invading their equal or militarily superior neighbors (which would be to unite their foes against them, which would be bad strategy).
Also just because a kingdom is made of "usually evil" or customarily belligerent inhabitants like orcs also doesn't mean that they just HAVE to invade their neighbors. Maybe they sure want to, but a strong leader (like Obould, who is a DEMIGOD) can keep them in line. And after enough generations, it's completely feasible that the impulse would have waned, if not disappeared. There are all kinds of evil kingdoms in the Realms that don't invade each other every few years--a century is a long stretch, but it's also a good amount of time to build up an army. There are also ways to indulge in one's war-like impulses that don't involve invading, much like the Romans did in the colliseum, for instance.
And has been said before, the orcs have never really had a lot of success in conquest thus far, so why wouldn't they try something new? If Obould is lulling his foes into a false sense of security in preparation for an invasion, then he's doing a pretty good job of it.As I implied earlier, I suspect there have been a LOT of would-be warchiefs who have risen up over the last century, trying to incite Many-Arrows to war. Cooler heads (specifically those of an exarch named Obould) have prevailed, and/or orc has fought orc. Why would Obould fight so hard to stop the MA orcs from rising up? Because it would be stupid to let them march to war.
Why settle for paltry short-term glory, when you can forge your kingdom into a superpower and conquer the world?
(And this is all assuming the orcs haven't done exactly what everyone seems to think they can't possibly do: legitimately yearn for peace.)
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 21:51:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
So, even in the 1e and 2e Realms, orcs aren't just ravening monsters. On the other hand, their culture is canonically more violent than Viking culture and the people of Scandinavia and Iceland did not suddenly stop engaging in warfare within less than a generation of the height of the Viking era and maintain that peaceful posture for a century.
We should be careful to ascribe too much real-world logic to the Realms, but it also bears noting that the Vikings also didn't have a Thor-like figure (Obould) who could just come down and slaughter anyone who crossed his plan. An exarch could easily hold the kingdom in a state of "peace" by sheer will.
Though I wonder if it's only a matter of time before Gruumsh gets antsy and deposes Obould, at which point Many Arrows will explode in violence against its neighbors, with all the resources they have been building up for a century.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 22:42:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
In general, I think it's more useful to look for explanations for something, rather than just say it's implausible and give up.
We get better explanations when we leave out the stuff that was clearly not thought through. If I meant to play a Highlander inspired game, I certainly wouldn't count Highlander II+ as canon.
If it violates logic or previously established facts, it's a mistake, not new canon.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I wonder if you're selling Gruumsh (and his exarch Obould) a bit short here. He really can't play the long game?
The original Gruumsh may have been capable of it, but Gruumsh-as-Talos is a divine embodiment of destructions and storms. A long game is not just out of character, it is directly opposed to his portfolios and sources of power. Storms don't plan, scheme and outlast, they destroy.
This is one of the reasons we must be careful to distinguish between the new 4e lore and previous FR lore. Gruumsh-as-Talos is not even remotely similar to the old Gruumsh, portfolios: orcs, conquest, strength, survival, territory. Obould did embody the virtues of Gruumsh as originally written, but the new Gruumsh is a completely different god, who ought to favour completely different virtues. None of which, incidentally, would be playing a long game.
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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Not going to war with one's neighbors does not mean "peaceful." They could have fought a number of internal civil wars (let's say 8, one for each generation), and none of that would involve invading their equal or militarily superior neighbors (which would be to unite their foes against them, which would be bad strategy).
The idea that wars of aggression are anything but legitimate acts of national interest is a very recent one. Given that nothing we have seen in FR canon suggests that any act of war by one power is met by an immediate declaration of universal war by a supranatural body, I would think it extremely anachronistic to think that any act of war by the Kingdom of Many Arrows would automatically consolidate all their neighbours against them.
Over a century of time, the opportunities to wage a war that would be regarded by neutral and unengaged polities as a perfetly legitimate dispute by two powers would be innumerable. Look at the 13th century, the 14th, the 15th, the 16th, the 17th, the 18th... scratch that. Look at any time period in human history.
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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Also just because a kingdom is made of "usually evil" or customarily belligerent inhabitants like orcs also doesn't mean that they just HAVE to invade their neighbors. Maybe they sure want to, but a strong leader (like Obould, who is a DEMIGOD) can keep them in line.
Obould was not there. His successors, not demigods at all, were.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
And after enough generations, it's completely feasible that the impulse would have waned, if not disappeared. There are all kinds of evil kingdoms in the Realms that don't invade each other every few years--a century is a long stretch, but it's also a good amount of time to build up an army. There are also ways to indulge in one's war-like impulses that don't involve invading, much like the Romans did in the colliseum, for instance.
You bring up two points here that conflict rather badly. Over eight generations, the warrior culture of a people may fade and disappear. Then you say that it's a good period of time to build an army.
As experience shows, when a nation doesn't fight a war for a very long time (such as one generation, which would historically be a very long time of peace), the army will deteriorate, its fighting spirit wane and the professionalism of it crumble. To maintain a fighting army, polities whose populations do not regularly go to war are forced to recruit external and barbarian mercenaries to do their fighting.
And Rome was engaged in wars during almost all the years while the Coliseum was in operation. The true business of Rome was war and business was good. In fact, gladiators were often deserters from the legions and if not, they were usually captured enemies from foreign wars. Rome's economy could not have long sustained itself without the income from victorious foreign wars.
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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
And has been said before, the orcs have never really had a lot of success in conquest thus far, so why wouldn't they try something new? If Obould is lulling his foes into a false sense of security in preparation for an invasion, then he's doing a pretty good job of it.As I implied earlier, I suspect there have been a LOT of would-be warchiefs who have risen up over the last century, trying to incite Many-Arrows to war. Cooler heads (specifically those of an exarch named Obould) have prevailed, and/or orc has fought orc. Why would Obould fight so hard to stop the MA orcs from rising up? Because it would be stupid to let them march to war.
At no point over the 107 years was there a point where a war for limited objectives was possible and desirable? Or when the neighbours declared war on him?
During the confusion of 1385 DR, the orcish Kingdom of Many Arrows ought to have been in a position to take massive advantage of the dearth of available magic on the part of its foes. It also ought to have a new generation of warriors trained and ready. What did it do?
Kept the peace. Again, this is better restraint that any historical king of a European kingdom showed. The orcs of Many Arrows are more civilised than actual humans.
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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Why settle for paltry short-term glory, when you can forge your kingdom into a superpower and conquer the world?
4e told us that this was not what Obould did. He ascended to exarchdom and left successors ruling Many Arrows. Obould cannot conquer anything any more, because he's no longer king there. Well, Obould VII or something is, but that many generations means that he could well be a quarter-orc/quarter-halfling/quarter-elf sage king who faints at the sight of blood.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
(And this is all assuming the orcs haven't done exactly what everyone seems to think they can't possibly do: legitimately yearn for peace.)
You'll note that I did not dismiss that possibility out of hand. What I did do, however, was say that having succeeded so early and so completely was beyond the pale in terms of plausibility.
Cultural change doesn't happen like that. And that's assuming that orcs were only evil because of culture, that is, that they were nothing more than humans with a different culture. If we assume that some biological factors* inherent to orcs do in fact predispose them to be more violent than humans, an assumption supported by much lore, we have a species overcoming their very natures and thousands of years of history with more ease than even the smallest changes in our world have been effected.
Orcs that yearn for peace makes for a compelling story. Orcs that suddenly discovered that they yearned for peace and then managed to found a nation that covers a span of history equivalent to the US from founding to post-WWII, with better foreign relations than any real nation, without at any point being driven to the point of warfare with a single neighbour, are not a story. The dramatic conflict that was supposed to drive the story has been fiated away.
Edit: Just wished to point out that I dropped an X in the title of the King of Many Arrows. He is Obould XVII and it is canon that the Kingdom of Many Arrows has stood for seventeen orc generations. This makes it, comparatively, far older than the United States.
The original Obould died in bed, of old age. He didn't play a long game to lull anyone into a false sense of security. He really did yearn for peace and his successors seem to have shared that wish. The dynasty of Obould, listed as Chaotic Evil in 4e lore, showed more civilisation and sense than any human monarchy in history.
*Rapid breeding, poor impulse control as it relates to the control of aggression, etc. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 22 Nov 2011 22:54:36 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2011 : 23:03:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
We should be careful to ascribe too much real-world logic to the Realms,
I could not disagree more. We should be careful not to assume that things work the same in the Forgotten Realms as in our world; but logic is universal. Logic means that the premises lead to the conclusion.
Telling me that because the Forgotten Realms is a fantasy world I should not expect it to make sense in terms of the internal rules that govern the world is like telling me that I can't use it for gaming. If actions in the game do not have some predictable consequences, it is utterly pointless for players to reason, to plan, to make decisions, etc.
One of the things that distinguishes fantasy worlds that I am at all interested in exploring is that people remain people, even if there are dragons and white walkers around. It is precisely G.R.R. Martin's keen observation of human nature and of man's inhumanity to man that makes A Song of Ice and Fire interesting. And it was Ed's original conception of the Forgotten Realms as an unreal place with real people in it that led me to play in it.
If people, be they green-skinned or pink, suddenly stop being as delightfully complex as they really are and start behaving like carbon cut-outs meant to facilate a heavy-handed GI Drow allegorical Very Special Episode, that's not cool. Not cool at all.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
but it also bears noting that the Vikings also didn't have a Thor-like figure (Obould) who could just come down and slaughter anyone who crossed his plan. An exarch could easily hold the kingdom in a state of "peace" by sheer will.
And when he died of old age?
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Though I wonder if it's only a matter of time before Gruumsh gets antsy and deposes Obould, at which point Many Arrows will explode in violence against its neighbors, with all the resources they have been building up for a century.
What stopped him from doing it when the time was ripe and most other powers were weak, dealing with the fallout from Mystra's death? |
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Edited by - Icelander on 22 Nov 2011 23:04:13 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 07:40:19
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quote:
Icelander
My point was simply that if we meant to discuss the Realms, we ought to keep the new lore, confusing and inconsistent with the past, out of it ... There is no way to rationally reconcile the new Realms with the old. The orcs of 3.x were different from the old, yes, but not as different as that entirely new species that 4e calls orcs.
Strangely enough, I have no issue at all with the changes in the Realms. A century has passed, worlds and cultures change ... a little more than one century ago in our own past people still rode horses and wagons, some could afford to ride steam locomotives, some could afford a radio, there were no aircraft or televisions or machines mass-producing machines and goods, every neighbourhood had an anvil, people still - in practical terms - segregated other people as slaves on a racial basis. It doesn't seem unbelievable to me that (unstable) kingdoms and nations could rise or fall within a century, it doesn't seem unbelievable for the population of Faerûn at large to suddenly have access to widespread literacy, firearms, and a more cosmopolitan outlook - they've realized their provincial little cities/states are part of a larger world, their parochialism has been traded for profits and goods and methods imported from previously exotic lands.
I find it interesting that nobody seems to take much issue against the sudden arrival of the Shadovar and their rather forcible installment as a kingdom of significant power. Arguments against an orc kingdom based on the premise that kingdoms do not appear overnight would appear to be invalid.
Of course, having said all that, I still oppose the self-emergence of orcs into the civilized world. It's been explained well enough in the fiction, yet I still find it too unbelievable and contrary to the image of orcs which I've so long understood. The 4E explanation of racial divergence among orcs, now two (or more) subspecies, civilized and feral, goes a long way towards soothing this qualm, but so far it just hasn't been enough. My arguments against the viability of an orc kingdom are, sad to say, effectively based on anti-orc racial discrimination.
Slightly off topic ... can anybody comment on what nudged WotC to create this orc kingdom idea in the first place? I don't want to sound like I'm flaming, but really, the only real reason I can see for implementing the concept is to provide players who wish to play orcs (or half-orcs) some sort of background option which doesn't involve the usual rape and pillage routine. I suppose modern gamers, particularly the youngest ones, have been so exposed to World of Blizzard that orcs are now a compelling, cool, and somewhat rebellious racial option, more than ever before. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 12:15:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
It doesn't seem unbelievable to me that (unstable) kingdoms and nations could rise or fall within a century, it doesn't seem unbelievable for the population of Faerûn at large to suddenly have access to widespread literacy, firearms, and a more cosmopolitan outlook - they've realized their provincial little cities/states are part of a larger world, their parochialism has been traded for profits and goods and methods imported from previously exotic lands.
This was in no way, shape or form my objection. I was not complaining that there had been too many changes to be plausible over a century. I was complaining that too little had happened, in the case of the Kingdom of Many Arrows specifically, not too much.
Kingdoms rise and fall, yes. And the overwhelming odds were that this one would fall. Tear itself apart in civil strife, war against neighbours, etc. If it did not fall, it ought to have made some territorial gains.
What I find utterly implausible is that two things are assumed to be true at one and the same time. A) Gruumsh is not a god of territory and conquest, but of destruction and storms. His servant, Obould, was so true to his divine nature in the establishment of the Kingdom of Many Arrows that he was raised to exarchood at Gruumsh' side. B) The Kingdom of Many Arrows has not gone to war against its neighbours since it was founded, a record of peaceful coexistence that historical human kingdoms in our world could not hope to match. Obould and the dynasty he left behind are far more peaceful and civilised than real humans.
Embodying savage and chaotic evil destruction while simultaneously being less warlike than humanity actually is does not compute. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 12:37:45
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| I heartily agree with the misperceptions of Gruumsh. He has always been tyrannical and unforgiving, relentless and merciless, utterly territorial and unspeakably harsh to those who oppose him. His will was the will of the orcs, simple as that. In essence, he was the ultimate bully and any orc stupid enough to challenge his tyranny with radically distasteful concepts like peace and civilization (especially with non-orc races, since they are all inferior species) would be punished. Punished quite severely, as an example. I feel it was an error to identify Gruumsh with Talos, if anything, he was much more like Bane. Obould would be no exarch of Gruumsh, but instead an agent serving a competing deity - or more likely, just an clever and charismatic uppity orc who doesn't know his place, a betrayer who incites division among his own peoples. IMO, of course, though it defies WotC canon on the matter. |
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Seravin
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1266 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 14:23:22
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Not sure if it's relevant, but whatever happened to the Orcs from Zhentil Keep during the Crusade book of the Horse Kingdom trilogy set up shop north of Aglarond (the country name escapes me now)? Didn't they want to establish a somewhat peaceful city, and this predates Obould in the Silver Marshes? Did this new city survive? Am I totally missing something and remembering them wrong?
They were the first time I remember reading about orcs who yearned for a somewhat peaceful life and acted differently in the FR setting.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 14:34:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
Not sure if it's relevant, but whatever happened to the Orcs from Zhentil Keep during the Crusade book of the Horse Kingdom trilogy set up shop north of Aglarond (the country name escapes me now)? Didn't they want to establish a somewhat peaceful city, and this predates Obould in the Silver Marshes? Did this new city survive? Am I totally missing something and remembering them wrong?
They were the first time I remember reading about orcs who yearned for a somewhat peaceful life and acted differently in the FR setting.
It was in Thesk and it was a town, not a city. Named Tammar.
I don't recall seeing anything about it as a flipped through the 4e book.
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Edited by - Icelander on 23 Nov 2011 14:35:28 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 14:56:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I heartily agree with the misperceptions of Gruumsh. He has always been tyrannical and unforgiving, relentless and merciless, utterly territorial and unspeakably harsh to those who oppose him. His will was the will of the orcs, simple as that. In essence, he was the ultimate bully and any orc stupid enough to challenge his tyranny with radically distasteful concepts like peace and civilization (especially with non-orc races, since they are all inferior species) would be punished. Punished quite severely, as an example. I feel it was an error to identify Gruumsh with Talos, if anything, he was much more like Bane.
Gruumsh wasn't really like any other deity, he was himself, He-Who-Watches and didn't need to be conflated with anyone else. I agree that he was more like Bane than Talos, though, if it were necessary to find any human deity he resembled.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Obould would be no exarch of Gruumsh, but instead an agent serving a competing deity - or more likely, just an clever and charismatic uppity orc who doesn't know his place, a betrayer who incites division among his own peoples. IMO, of course, though it defies WotC canon on the matter.
While Obould was uniting the orcs under his banner in a kingdom that could provide an economic backbone for a real army of orcs, instead of a directionless horde, he was clearly serving the will of Gruumsh One-Eye*. After all, that Gruumsh was served by Ilneval Hordemaster and this clearly fits Ilneval's dogma.
It wasn't until Gruumsh was retconned into a completely different god and it was ruled that the Kingdom of Many Arrows had for a full century completely failed to serve the cause of orcish superiority, destruction, conquest, war or storms that it became questionable in the extreme to make Obould an exarch of Gruumsh-as-Talos. The 4e Obould who died an old and peaceful man was not Chaotic Evil and he was not a fit servant for Talos. He might have been Lawful Evil and a devoted servant of the original Gruumsh One-Eye through his subordinate god Ilneval Hordemaster, but he was no servant of Talos.
I didn't want to derail this thread by discussion the merits of the 4e Realms setting. If people enjoy that setting, more power to them. I was just trying to point out that an edition-neutral answer to this question was impossible, given that the orcs and the god they answer to were not even remotely similar in the different settings.
*The version from the original Realms. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 14:59:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
This was in no way, shape or form my objection. I was not complaining that there had been too many changes to be plausible over a century. I was complaining that too little had happened, in the case of the Kingdom of Many Arrows specifically, not too much.
Kingdoms rise and fall, yes. And the overwhelming odds were that this one would fall. Tear itself apart in civil strife, war against neighbours, etc. If it did not fall, it ought to have made some territorial gains.
What I find utterly implausible is that two things are assumed to be true at one and the same time. A) Gruumsh is not a god of territory and conquest, but of destruction and storms. His servant, Obould, was so true to his divine nature in the establishment of the Kingdom of Many Arrows that he was raised to exarchood at Gruumsh' side. B) The Kingdom of Many Arrows has not gone to war against its neighbours since it was founded, a record of peaceful coexistence that historical human kingdoms in our world could not hope to match. Obould and the dynasty he left behind are far more peaceful and civilised than real humans.
Embodying savage and chaotic evil destruction while simultaneously being less warlike than humanity actually is does not compute.
It is truly antithetical.
Why didn't Obould-the-Exarch (when he was alive) take advantage of the fallout after the spellplague? It couldn't have hurt his people that badly, but it did put everyone around him into chaos for at least a brief period.
Or if Oubold-the-Exarch remained bizarrely peaceful for the rest of his life including the spellplague, why didn't his immediate successor take over after Obould's death and launch even a small war against someone to gain additional territory or resources?
Instead, we have a series of apparently peaceful throne successions. No apparent challenges to the throne from brothers, cousins, or any usurpers outside the Obould lineage. Cormyr has more court intrigue and backstabbing in a single year. |
Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 15:09:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Why didn't Obould-the-Exarch (when he was alive) take advantage of the fallout after the spellplague? It couldn't have hurt his people that badly, but it did put everyone around him into chaos for at least a brief period.
Just so. Even a non-evil king would probably have grabbed a few choice provinces at that time.
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Or if Oubold-the-Exarch remained bizarrely peaceful for the rest of his life including the spellplague, why didn't his immediate successor take over after Obould's death and launch even a small war against someone to gain additional territory or resources?
Indeed. Even if Obould was an exceptional orc, why were his sixteen successors all exceptional in the same way? Why wasn't one of them a devoted worshipper of Gruumsh-as-Talos? Or just a ruthless power-hungry monarch? A weak, decadent king easily overthrown by a bloodthirsty baron?
Why did the Obould dynasty win out, if they were going against thousands of years of history and the very nature of orcs, as evidenced by the nature of the God of Orcs?
quote:
Originally posted by Therise
Instead, we have a series of apparently peaceful throne successions. No apparent challenges to the throne from brothers, cousins, or any usurpers outside the Obould lineage. Cormyr has more court intrigue and backstabbing in a single year.
Well, there has been civil war. But given that both sides in a civil war presumably believe that they have a chance to win, arguing that the odds aren't far from 50/50, why did the Obould dynasty win them all? The odds of winning eight times in a row when your odds are 50/50 are 0.4%.
The timejump jumped over all the truly interesting history of the Kingdom of Many Arrows and just assumed that because one orcish king wanted it, it would happen and remain so for a century. |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 15:26:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Well, there has been civil war. But given that both sides in a civil war presumably believe that they have a chance to win, arguing that the odds aren't far from 50/50, why did the Obould dynasty win them all? The odds of winning eight times in a row when your odds are 50/50 are 0.4%.
The timejump jumped over all the truly interesting history of the Kingdom of Many Arrows and just assumed that because one orcish king wanted it, it would happen and remain so for a century.
The part about multiple civil wars is what makes the most sense to me, from a historical perspective (and considering the original Gruumsh). Chieftain vs. chieftain and tribe vs. tribe seem to have always been a part of regular orc society. Keep honing that blade until you have the strongest and sharpest.
It's Obould-the-Exarch's history of peace until his death, and his subsequent heirs' desire to hold (and recapture when necessary) and sit on a non-expansionist throne that are really odd. Assuming that many (most?) of Obould's heirs have held the throne (the guide says "mostly unbroken"), and we're up to now Obould XVII... that's a long line dedicated to peace with its non-orc neighbors. Why would the old or the new Gruumsh stand for that? There are gods who have a "long view"... but really, as you say, this is all very odd indeed.
Maybe there is a great deal of interesting stuff that happened during the 100-years of the timejump. But even so, it's hard to picture how this kingdom has withstood the test of 100+ years.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 15:27:43
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quote:
Therise
Why didn't Obould-the-Exarch (when he was alive) take advantage of the fallout after the spellplague? It couldn't have hurt his people that badly, but it did put everyone around him into chaos for at least a brief period.
This is an interesting point I'd overlooked. Orcs, in general, don't have a lot of magic and mages. So a group of orcs would be relatively unaffected by the Spellplague, assuming of course that the random blue stuff didn't chase them around. While at the same time all those human and elven nations would suffer tremendously from the Spellplague. Wouldn't this have been a most excellent time for a new kingdom of orcs to act aggressively, while they remain strong and everybody else is weak? Whether they use force to expand or even to fortify alliances by sending assistance, the damage caused (to others) by the Spellplage would've been something of a boon to the orcs.
I imagine dwarves would've been similarly unaffected. A perfect setting for orc-dwarf interactions, one way or another. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 19:11:49
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I think I've already stated my case, which is to offer multiple possible explanations for why Many Arrows hasn't attacked its neighbors (at least in any serious way) over the last century. Sure, some of them are contradictory, but then, I'm not suggesting ALL OF THEM are the case, at the same time. I haven't seen any successful refutation of my points, and I'm really not interested in just having an argument about it. I'll restate and expand on what I said before, and leave it at that.
The point I'd like to make here is that while these are good questions that should be discussed, they are not in and of themselves an argument for the impossibility of a peaceful Kingdom of Many Arrows. There are many, many sets of circumstances which could explain why the kingdom hasn't attacked its neighbors--we just don't know what the real one is.
(Also, where does it say Many Arrows has not attacked its neighbors? The book actually states that the kingdom can explode into war at any moment, and has done so several times. I would speculate that they did indeed take advantage of the Spellplague chaos to expand in the Wailing Years, but since then they haven't mounted a full scale invasion of the surrounding lands as, like I said earlier, that would no doubt unite the surrounding human kingdoms to "put down that orc horde we knew was coming for years" and be to the ultimate downfall of the kingdom.)
In my game, I explain it as Obould (the real, original, please-stand-up Obould) directly and indirectly keeping Many Arrows in line for all that time. We have him canonically passing from his mortal life into exarch (demigod) status under Gruumsh. This means that Obould can easily have been active in the Kingdom of Many Arrows ever since its forging, and it is through his own force of will that he has kept it in line, and so far his mortal descendents follow the family tradition. (No doubt a few have wavered, but Obould I would happily stamp them out if they jeopardized his plan.) My supposition is that Gruumsh gave him Many Arrows as an experiment, akin to crafting him a new weapon in his war for conquest, and that the Kingdom of Many Arrows is a brewing storm waiting for the perfect moment to be unleashed--a moment that has not come yet. (And let there be no doubt that Gruumsh is getting impatient.)
But Obould I may not have such an active role. Is it really so hard to accept that orcs might have established their own stable kingdom? Maybe over time and seventeen generations*, their society has indeed changed. I think it's likely they've developed a caste system, with warriors being the highest caste (much like feudal knights) and farmers/peasants being the spit-upon "peon" class. Among the peons, the orcs' violent ways have faded at least somewhat, and they have adjusted to their drudging lot in life. The warriors fight with one another extensively, and the kings frequently have to quell uprisings united behind popular leaders who want to raid their neighbors. They are in a reall tough circumstance, though, surrounded by human kingdoms that hate/fear them and are just WAITING for the orcs to attack. So far, they have managed to restrain themselves, if only because of a strong line of leaders. The line of Obould holds power akin to the divine right of kings, as it is descended from an actual deity, the mere invocation of which would be enough to keep political power firmly in the hands of Obould XVII.
*Note: It's not entirely clear to me that we canonically have seventeen generations of orcs. Just because we have an Obould XVII doesn't mean each has been the son of the previous king (it does say "mostly unbroken dynasty" in the FRCG). There could easily be some brothers, uncles, cousins, or whatever in there. But it is clear that the orc lifespan is shorter than the humans, so we do have a more rapidly turning over society than a human kingdom in the same situation.
From the FRCG: The book supports my suggestions about civil wars and uprisings, and states that the single united kingdom has only really held for about 20 years (since 1460). The kingdom is noted as sealed (marked at the border with signs) and no doubt guarded. The book also supports my point about an arena (the Pit).
I am sensitive to the argument that this seems like an odd development for the orcs, since they have been generally portrayed to be warlike, impatient, and expansive, and follow a deity that advocates those virtues. Again, I'll advance my "honing the sword" experiment concept: that Gruumsh has tasked Obould with building an unstoppable powerhouse, in the form of the Kingdom of Many Arrows. And one day, Obould I will manifest before the current king of the orcs and say that the time has come for war, and all the North will tremble.
Or maybe the unfathomable really has occurred, and the orcs really have evolved beyond their brutish, violent origins. Humans did it--why not orcs?
And why can't BOTH be true? I see this as the fundamental conflict in the Kingdom of Many Arrows--the struggle between a violent nature and heritage and striving for peace and civilization. I think a fascinating novel could be written or a game run on just this topic. Maybe Obould really is trying to evolve the orcs, but just telling Gruumsh that he's crafting a weapon. Ultimately, it will come to war between Obould and Gruumsh himself.
Anyway, in conclusion, I see no way in which this conflicts with prior canon. Sure, I completely understand the point about doubting that it squares with previous versions of orcs, but this is ONE isolated kingdom, under an extraordinary set of circumstances, with the backing of a DEMIGOD holding the reigns. I see no reason to call this unfeasible or a contradiction.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 23 Nov 2011 19:15:39 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 19:29:03
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My earlier post may have implied that I don't have any more interest in this discussion--this is not the case, as I actually find this conversation fascinating. I just wish we could get off the "it doesn't make perfect sense to me, so it's obviously stupid" train, and get into actual discussion about how the kingdom could be the case, which is the question in the OP.
I also vote for leaving the "4e is the dumb" discussion aside. If you don't accept 4e FR as canon, fine and more power to you--I suggest you just look at this as a hypothetical discussion.
quote:
Originally posted by IcelanderWhat I find utterly implausible is that two things are assumed to be true at one and the same time.
I'll take a stab at those . . .
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A) Gruumsh is not a god of territory and conquest, but of destruction and storms. His servant, Obould, was so true to his divine nature in the establishment of the Kingdom of Many Arrows that he was raised to exarchood at Gruumsh' side.
Obould wasn't necessarily raised to exarchhood because he fit into GRUUMSH'S divine portfolio. Obould is the patron of warriors, not destruction and storms. I see his elevation as being a logical consequence of what he did for the orcs, which was to establish them as a strong power in the region (something no chieftain has ever been able to do), and the reverence that his people paid him. I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of his reign, the orcs looked to him as a god (they already did during The Orc King novel).
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B) The Kingdom of Many Arrows has not gone to war against its neighbours since it was founded, a record of peaceful coexistence that historical human kingdoms in our world could not hope to match. Obould and the dynasty he left behind are far more peaceful and civilised than real humans.
I question whether the "no war against our neighbors" thing is really the case canonically, but even if it is, Many Arrows is extremely isolated. It states in the book that Obould I closed off the borders and grew/established his kingdom inside. He could easily have kept it from launching invasions into neighboring lands during his lifetime, and while his descendents probably had a tougher time, they had the backing of a now-demigod/exarch.
I don't think your last hypothesis is something we're being asked to believe. The book flatly states that the MA orcs have fought a series of wars and could explode into war at any point. This does not sound like "more peaceful and civilized than real humans" to me. I would wager their civilization is violent and brutish and might-makes-right. They were fractious and have only been a single kingdom-state since 1460. And since MA is sealed off, it's hard to know exactly on what scale the violence has erupted inside.
A couple other thoughts:
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Why didn't Obould-the-Exarch (when he was alive) take advantage of the fallout after the spellplague? It couldn't have hurt his people that badly, but it did put everyone around him into chaos for at least a brief period.
I think he did, actually, but the book doesn't say either way. It just says that he carved out a kingdom and sealed it off, but not WHEN, exactly, he did this sealing. I think The Orc King showed us part of the process, not the end of "uniting all the tribes," which could well have happened in the wake of the Spellplague. Or maybe Obould didn't expand, to the surprise of his fellow orcs, because it would have drawn his human neighbors into a war against him. We don't know.
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Or if Oubold-the-Exarch remained bizarrely peaceful for the rest of his life including the spellplague, why didn't his immediate successor take over after Obould's death and launch even a small war against someone to gain additional territory or resources?
Who's to say he didn't?
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Instead, we have a series of apparently peaceful throne successions. No apparent challenges to the throne from brothers, cousins, or any usurpers outside the Obould lineage. Cormyr has more court intrigue and backstabbing in a single year.
I don't read anything in the book about it being peaceful. It says "mostly unbroken dynasty" and talks about a series of civil wars. I'll bet it's been anything but peaceful.
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 19:31:13
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I think a useful analogy here is drow society. They are chaotic evil--far more destructive and violent even than orcs. How do *drow* function as a society? Through restrained and appropriately channeled violence--a social order that encourages betrayal and destruction, in the proper ways.
I see no reason the orcs couldn't have these same restrictions (albeit somewhat more lax) imposed upon them, and function just as well (if not with the same level of taste/style).
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 19:38:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Therise
Why didn't Obould-the-Exarch (when he was alive) take advantage of the fallout after the spellplague? It couldn't have hurt his people that badly, but it did put everyone around him into chaos for at least a brief period.
This is an interesting point I'd overlooked. Orcs, in general, don't have a lot of magic and mages. So a group of orcs would be relatively unaffected by the Spellplague, assuming of course that the random blue stuff didn't chase them around. While at the same time all those human and elven nations would suffer tremendously from the Spellplague. Wouldn't this have been a most excellent time for a new kingdom of orcs to act aggressively, while they remain strong and everybody else is weak? Whether they use force to expand or even to fortify alliances by sending assistance, the damage caused (to others) by the Spellplage would've been something of a boon to the orcs.
I imagine dwarves would've been similarly unaffected. A perfect setting for orc-dwarf interactions, one way or another.
This is a good question. The Spellplague didn't limit its effects to high magic areas, but instead playing havoc wherever it pleased. Maybe the orcs were indeed hit hard by it.
On the other hand, maybe Obould (at that point, probably on his deathbed from old age) forbade his people to take advantage of it, knowing over the long term that it would be extremely bad for the fledgling kingdom. No doubt there would have been an uprising here, but maybe Obould's last battle was to crush the upstart would-be king who led the revolt. That'd be a cool scene.
The more I read and post here, the more I want to see The Forging of Many Arrows, a novel along the lines of Cormyr or Evermeet.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 19:48:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
quote:
Therise
Why didn't Obould-the-Exarch (when he was alive) take advantage of the fallout after the spellplague? It couldn't have hurt his people that badly, but it did put everyone around him into chaos for at least a brief period.
This is an interesting point I'd overlooked. Orcs, in general, don't have a lot of magic and mages. So a group of orcs would be relatively unaffected by the Spellplague, assuming of course that the random blue stuff didn't chase them around. While at the same time all those human and elven nations would suffer tremendously from the Spellplague. Wouldn't this have been a most excellent time for a new kingdom of orcs to act aggressively, while they remain strong and everybody else is weak? Whether they use force to expand or even to fortify alliances by sending assistance, the damage caused (to others) by the Spellplage would've been something of a boon to the orcs.
I imagine dwarves would've been similarly unaffected. A perfect setting for orc-dwarf interactions, one way or another.
This is a good question. The Spellplague didn't limit its effects to high magic areas, but instead playing havoc wherever it pleased. Maybe the orcs were indeed hit hard by it.
On the other hand, maybe Obould (at that point, probably on his deathbed from old age) forbade his people to take advantage of it, knowing over the long term that it would be extremely bad for the fledgling kingdom. No doubt there would have been an uprising here, but maybe Obould's last battle was to crush the upstart would-be king who led the revolt. That'd be a cool scene.
The more I read and post here, the more I want to see The Forging of Many Arrows, a novel along the lines of Cormyr or Evermeet.
Cheers
Please write it Erik! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2011 : 21:16:19
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quote:
Originally posted by entreri3478
Please write it Erik!
Flatterer.
It's got me thinking, though. One can see a few cross-overs between the Warcraft conception of orcs and the 4e FR one, but I think there are a great many differences, which such a novel would show. It'd have the chance to answer all these questions that we're debating, and really get into the orc psyche. It'd be fascinating.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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How does an orc kingdom, like Many Arrows exist?
