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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Feb 2011 : 22:57:01
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I just read Orcus made the transition from mortal wizard to mane all the way up to evil diety.
Modron and Slaadi are remade as more powerful versions if the are "slawful" or "chaotic" enough.
Ditto for Yugoloths and Devils and Celestials....
This process also works in the opposite direction I believe.
My questions are... who or what controls this process?
Does it come from the plane that the outsider resides on?
Does it come from the Greater Gods of Good, Evil , Neutrality, Chaos and LAW as a sort of rewards , penalty system.
Does it come from the overgod to promote some sort of overall balance of power in the multiverse?
What is the grand scheme? Is there a grand scheme or perhaps these leaps(or debits) in power come fully from individual motivation. Perhaps Orcus even as a lowly Mane aspired to be the biggest and badest Demon around and fulfilled his destiny?
Comments?
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 00:26:23
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In regards to devils, the process of promotion is a highly regulated, organized one controlled by more powerful devils, with archdevils and Asmodeus ultimately being in control of the whole system. To earn a promotion means that you display competence, potential, cunning, but not so much that you would be a threat to the immediate superior handling the promotion. Also, the process requires the energy of mortal souls, which being a finite resource in the nine hells, means someone really has to earn it.
In the abyss, the process is more random. More powerful demons can and do promote lesser demons, but they're as likely to kill them as anything else. The abyss, being semi-sentient itself, will occasionally promote demons spontaneousness and not necessarily in order, or create a fully formed demon on any step of the ladder from the essence of the abyss itself.
In regards to Orcus; the latest retcon in 4e, which may or may not apply to the Realms, states that Orcus was never a mortal, but rather was a primordial before being corrupted by the essence of the abyss after its creation. Demogorgon is also given this origin, and I'm decently sure that Baphomet and the demon lord of gnolls who's name I forget at the moment were as well. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 01:04:54
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It's worth noting that Baatezu are always qualified for their station, the unfit sre never promoted.
Modron promotions are decided by their immediate superiors, ultimately Primus himself.
Otherwise, I'm not too sure anyone controls this process. The essence of the planes is formed from belief and alignment, the nearly-eternal denizens live in a sort of eco-system, the souls (or whatever) with "purer" or stronger belief and alignment advance or evolve up on the food chain, the "less pure" or weaker sorts assume lower or intermediate positions, the incompatible sorts are unable to survive. Basically, life on the planes (even on each plane) is competitive, and as anywhere else, the fittest specimens are those who are most well adapted to their environment. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 11 Feb 2011 01:08:31 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 01:09:04
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True. But some are overqualified because the person above them recognizes them as a threat. Of course, if those individuals are cunning enough, they go over their superior's head and get him removed, thus earning a promotion from their superior's superior.
Some are occasionally promoted to dead end ranks, or demoted if they displease their masters, or if their master needs soul energy for something they deem more important(demoting a devil recycles the soul energy used to promote them). |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 01:21:49
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| Who controls the process for the Celestials? |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 04:57:58
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I would assume the deity they serve.
Then again, celestials/angels are no longer forces of good; they're simply servants of the gods. Gruumsh has angels, Bane has angels. Lolth and Asmodeus don't, but they could if they wanted them. There are no longer so much different types of angels as there are different ranks and positions with different duties to carry out. They all more or less look the same; ethereal, faceless beings of divine energy.
Of course this is strickly 4e, which is my bread and butter. For previous editions, I'm not sure who handled advancement. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 08:40:36
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quote:
Who controls the process for the Celestials?
I think in 3e it's the deity or that supreme archon or sth... (the one that was in BoED) |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 13:46:00
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Archons wear special metal items that turn platinum when they are ready for advancement. I think the process is done by the tome archons.
Asuras advance in levels.
Angels are promoted for their service to gods.
Guardinals and eladrin are born. Eladrin can change their forms on a whim, except maybe tulani are special.
Quesar were constructed.
There's also the Celestial Tribunal who demotes them. It's all in Warriors of Heaven.
Slaadi go though mysterious rituals and isolation. Or serve the Soujourner. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2011 : 15:07:19
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This is one of those rare instances where i step back from the lore and simply say 'it is what it is'.
In other words, the process is controlled by the universe itself, and even 'the gods' have no control over it, nor knowledge of it's precise intricacies (although some have figured-out how to 'promote' beings simply by infusing them with a little power).
I personally use The Living Tribual (from Marvel Comics) as the mechanic for this, and consider that enigmatic being to be above even 'the Watching gods' (who are ABOVE deities and primordials). I even referenced him/it in the short piece I wrote regarding Monkey and the start of the Avatar crisis (which could probably found here at the keep with a search). Ao threatened Corellon with 'The Tribunal' when Corellon attempted to refuse being reduced to a mortal Avatar. Pure Homebrew, of course (but the enigma aspect works to explain much; its the perfect Deus Ex Machina). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 05:51:27
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Gods have no role in the process with the sole exception of Aasimon/Angels. Period. Full stop. They're too young on the scale of such things, and too far removed from the nitty gritty politics and power dynamics of the other outsider races to have any say in the matter.
The process of promotion/demotion varies by outsider race, by their own higher level decisions on the matter, and by the nature of their plane/alignment. Yugoloths for instance have obsessively tinkered with their own process and it has evolved over time as the ultroloths and some of their unique entities have added more tiers to the ranking, and of course they view the entire process as something like a zero-sum game leading towards this idea of purification and perfection - in some sense this perfection being a universe devoid of mercy. The baernaloths probably have a much greater role in the 'loths progression, having set up the original draft at the start when they created them.
Similarly the devils/baatezu control their promotion through a specific Ministry (I don't recall off the top of my head which Pit Fiend of the Dark 8 is responsible for that one. Pierza?). It's outside of the hands of the Lords of the 9 more or less in terms of the rank and file devils, and in turn they don't have any say on the order and structure of the unique diabolic nobility.
Other races have their own methods, orders, and nature of promotion/demotion. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Edited by - Shemmy on 12 Feb 2011 06:00:11 |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 05:57:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
In regards to Orcus; the latest retcon in 4e, which may or may not apply to the Realms, states that Orcus was never a mortal, but rather was a primordial before being corrupted by the essence of the abyss after its creation.
It's not so much a retcon as it is the lore for an entirely different game. The same way that the planar material from (non-AD&D) (basic, expert, immortal, etc) D&D back in the day doesn't have any relation to the 1e/2e/3e planar continuity. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 06:28:17
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| Granted, it's his backstory in the points of light setting which is why I said it may or may not apply to the realms. But, and I'm just curious here, was his previous origin of being a wizard who crawled his way up the demonic latter realms specific or from the core setting? |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 18:07:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Granted, it's his backstory in the points of light setting which is why I said it may or may not apply to the realms. But, and I'm just curious here, was his previous origin of being a wizard who crawled his way up the demonic latter realms specific or from the core setting?
There was no distinction between "realms specific" and "core setting". Orcus was Orcus, and FR and various other settings were all situated within a larger, common multiverse. For instance, while most of the in-depth lore on Lolth came from FR specific books, that story of her origin as Corellon's consort Araushnee and subsequent fall into the Abyss, that also was her origin story in the multiverse as a whole - not just FR.
It's really only when there's a strict division between "core" and each specific setting that you run into issues, mostly in 4e, and perhaps in 3e if for instance Eberron had a different backstory for something that had previously showed up in another setting.
The detailed Orcus backstory in any event was from a Planescape source, 'Dead Gods' IIRC rather than one of the material plane-based settings. By its nature that included cross-setting material, as they all used the same cosmology, same shared multiverse, etc. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2011 : 18:40:16
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quote:
Shemmy
It's not so much a retcon as it is the lore for an entirely different game. The same way that ... material from (non-AD&D) (basic, expert, immortal, etc) D&D back in the day doesn't have any relation to the 1e/2e/3e ... continuity.
A little OT, but I applaud you for offering the most concise statement about this that I've yet seen, Shemmy. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Outsiders moving up and down the power scale...
