| Author |
 Topic  |
|
The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 20:17:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Acolyte Thirteen
Why are only Red Wizards able to cast these spells developed by Red Wizards, Arik?
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
FR6 Dreams of the Red Wizards does have The Simbul's Synostodweomer along with arcane (necromancer) versions of Regenerate and Restoration. Plus a large number of Protection spells and a number of wizardized divine spells which provide all sorts of minor buffs, resistances, and defenses; particularly as they relate to weather, fire, blasting, and undead. Many of these spell descriptions simply say "same as the nth level cleric/druid spell in PHB".
I'll note that this allows Red Wizards (only Red Wizards) to overlap the functions of many low-level divine magics; it's reasonable to assume that if they've duplicated these divine spells then they can duplicate almost any other divine spells of similar power. Reds can overlap the functions of low-level priests, they might even make the priest classes entirely redundant (and that makes sense, given their arrogant Thayan outlook considers wizards supreme). But they can not heal - or when they can, they most certainly cannot heal as efficiently as even a lowly 1st level clerical acolyte.
If you want to blast you play a wizard, if you want to heal you play a priest, if you want to do both you can play a multi and do neither of these things as well as you could by following a "traditional" class. Some D&D homebrews don't even make the distinction; their logic being that wizards and priests are as little different from each other as myrmidons and gladiators, they have different backgrounds which can greatly influence their abilities but are otherwise interchangeable. I personally like keeping them separate and don't much care for attempts to hybridize them without penalty.
I think that while the red wizards sell most anything magical, from spells to enchanted items, it is simply that they keep "the good stuff" for themselves and have not shared this ability outside thay. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
|
Edited by - The Red Walker on 07 Dec 2010 20:18:51 |
 |
|
|
Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 20:30:47
|
| I can dig that, Red. But if a Cormyrian Wizard got his hands on a Red Wizard spell book... |
|
|
|
The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3563 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 20:53:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Acolyte Thirteen
I can dig that, Red. But if a Cormyrian Wizard got his hands on a Red Wizard spell book...
if that happened...I'd allow it, but not sure what the "rules" for that are. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
|
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 21:44:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I've always figured that there were more wizard healing spells than actually show up in gaming materials. Maybe they aren't all as efficient as their clerical counterparts, but they would be there. Why they haven't been written up is easy, and has been stated several times already: game balance.
That's all on the mark. From implications of certain sources confirmed in private discussion, wizardly healing magic is more prevalent than the (actually quite a few) wizardly healing spells published. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 22:23:06
|
As I said above, in Ed's Realms (and in 1e/2e), Southern Magic was it's own, separate type of magic, and combined Arcane and Divine.
Northern mages couldn't even read southern magic, ergo finding a spellbook was useless.
Because of all the confusion regarding it, WotC did away with 'Southern Magic' when they got a hold of FR, so those older spells do not apply to 3e. At the time many of those sources were written, we still had the concept of Southern magic, and Red Wizards originated in Mulhorand and therefor used there own form of that (combined with the 'more modern' northern magic, once they discovered Mystra's weave).
If anything, Southern magic was priestly magic that emulated wizardly magic, NOT the other way around (and was facilitated by Thoth, IIRC). The true genius of the Thayans was that when they divorced themselves from Mulhorand and it's gods, they managed to convert much of their 'old magic' into Weave-based magic. This would have only applied to the Arcane Spells they could cast - any divinely-based spells I would assume still used the older form of magic (and writing). This is why 'Red Wizard magic' is different from anything else - it is an amalgam of traditions from several cultures, and unique to Thay.
BTW, this is probably why the Imaskari didn't need the gods - southern magic would have originated with them (although Thoth would not have been there to help them with that). If anyone could have figured out how to channel radiant energy without divine assistance, it would have been them.
Also, note that Mystra's Chosen - who worship the goddess of Arcane Magic but are NOT priests - can all heal with Silver Fire (which makes the Simbul's spell both redundant and ridiculous).
|
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 07 Dec 2010 22:30:24 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 22:45:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, note that Mystra's Chosen - who worship the goddess of Arcane Magic but are NOT priests - can all heal with Silver Fire (which makes the Simbul's spell both redundant and ridiculous).
Unless she developed it before learning to heal herself with silver fire, and/or with non-Chosen in mind. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 22:46:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As I said above, in Ed's Realms (and in 1e/2e), Southern Magic was it's own, separate type of magic, and combined Arcane and Divine.
I've never heard of "Southern Magic" before.
Is it detailed in the Dreams of Red Wizards? Its been decades since I read that book, so I may have forgetten about the concept entirely. |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 22:53:40
|
| Southern magic is definitely seen as fundamentally different in the North (FR0C p. 80). It's written up as a distinct magic system in FR10 Old Empires; I'm not sure how much this reflects Ed's thinking. |
|
|
|
Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 22:56:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
As I said above, in Ed's Realms (and in 1e/2e), Southern Magic was it's own, separate type of magic, and combined Arcane and Divine.
I've never heard of "Southern Magic" before.
Is it detailed in the Dreams of Red Wizards? Its been decades since I read that book, so I may have forgetten about the concept entirely.
The Chapter on magic in FR6 states that (with the exception of The Simbul's Synostodweomer), the spells of the Red Wizards are accessible only to the Red wiards or "those people who may have gotten hold of and translated one of their spellbooks." This indicated that the Red Wizards used a different magical script (much like 1E illusionists used a different magical script). The Southern Magic was explicitly mentioned in FR10-Old Empires. |
|
|
|
Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 23:02:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
The Chapter on magic in FR6 states that ...[/i]
Ah, it's starting to come back to me now. Thank you Thauramarth.  |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 23:04:29
|
Southern magic - I think - is discussed in the original Shining South product, and probably in Old Empires as well. It was probably in the 1e or 2e (or both) FRCS boxes as well. It was never really fully-documented, and any rules we had for it were VERY wishy-washy (which is why they got rid of it I guess - it just created snafu's).
All I remember is that a northern mage could NOT cast or read Southern magic - it was unique and apparently separate from Mystra's control.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Unless she developed it before learning to heal herself with silver fire, and/or with non-Chosen in mind.
This was my thinking as well - she may have developed it before she was chosen, or before she was 'enlightened' as to being a chosen. We have to remember she had her own, unique magical training (Rashemi Witch) which may have helped with this (witches have access to some healing magic).
As for the Red Wizards, they are loosely based on Conan's Black Wizards of Stygia, who were priests of Set. I don't think the way they 'wound up' in official lore is the way Ed would have developed them. Their magic (IMHO) should have been tied to the divine all along (which would have been the reasoning behind their amalgam style of casting).
As for the 'why' of it - on further reflection, I believe that Mystra made deals with many gods concerning her weave (and its use as a spell-delivery system). Part of that was having the other gods support her claim that The Weave was the only way for mortals to 'do magic' (which we know is patently false), but I think another mutually beneficial thing would have been an exclusivity clause - that she would not step on their toes by providing 'priestly magics' to Wizards. Ergo, it wasn't impossible, it merely wasn't offered (Mystra had to remain on the good side of all those deities, mind you, and providing a means for mortals to 'get by without the gods' would not have made her many friends). we have canon that both sets of spells are 'delivered' by the Weave, so obviously Mystra could have made them available if it was in her best interest to do so (which it wasn't - after Imaskar, the gods were probably very careful about making sure mortals relied on them).
|
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 07 Dec 2010 23:08:25 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 23:17:16
|
quote:
Acolyte Thirteen
Why are only Red Wizards able to cast these spells developed by Red Wizards, Arik?
Strictly speaking there's no reason why other wizards couldn't learn, cast, or research these same spells.
My take is that the Red Wizards were portrayed from their inception as having access to powerful and unique magics; they were a real menace to everyone in the Realms and Thay itself was a bit of a mystery then - so Reds were best reserved for use as NPC villains and "pandora's box" sorts of treasure. At the time FR6: Dreams of the Red Wizards was published (that is, somewhen during the 1E/2E transition) the Reds had already established specializations in the traditional eight Schools of Philosophy. They were already described as having aggressively devised (and ruthlessly applied) all sorts of magic more sophisticated than the abilities of "normal" wizards.
Most of the spells in FR6 are unified by a potent affinity for fire, death, and blasting. Many spells are presented which (at the time) served to "fill in the blanks" and explain how a large number of "standard" magic items from the DMG could be crafted by wizards.
Note that the many of these spells can be cast (by a Red Wizard) at lower spell levels, for example, a particular Red Magic spell might be 2nd level instead of the "normal" 3rd level. It's not unreasonable to assume that the reverse would hold true for magics which do not fit well within the specialized focus of Red Magics. Note that similar spell-level advantages can be enjoyed by other wizard classes (especially the longer-established illusionist and necromancer schools) and are even applied to some specialty priest types - Reds are not an exclusive exception.
I'm well aware that 3E and beyond drastically redefined the rules of magic (and Red Wizards), so my 2E-ish examples are a bit dated and inapplicable, but the "thematic" logic behind them still stands; the particular advantages Reds enjoy might have changed but their magical competence and inclinations have not.
quote:
Markustay
... in Ed's Realms (and in 1e/2e), Southern Magic was it's own, separate type of magic, and combined Arcane and Divine ... Northern mages couldn't even read southern magic, ergo finding a spellbook was useless.
My particular adaptation is that Mulhorand and the South approach magic differently, for them the Schools of Effect (Elementalism) approach is standard fare instead. Not pure canon I know (largely because I lack certain tomes), but it adds a bit of exotic flavour between the South and the rest of the world.
I also have my paranoid evil Reds write their spell formula in an "encrypted" manner (conceptually similar to Ruathlek) which requires a 2nd level Read Red Magic spell to decipher, a spell which Reds are of course motivated to keep unknown to outsiders. Not to mention an excessive number of magical traps, glyphs, explosive runes and the like are routinely used within their spellbooks - remember, they're used to protecting their secrets and powers from other Reds, and they're not squeamish about interlopers being zorched as collateral damage. Foreign wizards generally cannot decipher Red spellbooks and scrolls (with standard Read Magic), though of course higher level magics (True Seeing, etc) can be employed instead.
quote:
Also, note that Mystra's Chosen ... can all heal with Silver Fire (which makes the Simbul's spell both redundant and ridiculous).
Yes and no. The healing power of silverfire probably required somebody (like the Simbul) to first research this spell to define it. Knowing this spell might even be a requisite to use this power, as indeed, a Chosen might need to know many other particular spells to understand how to apply other silverfire aspects and functions. FR4: The Magister suggests (but does not actually state) as much by saying that Mystra's Magisters/Chosen are granted special powers to reward their creative magical research and innovation. Also remember that the powers of the Chosen (as individuals and as a group) evolved through a number of publications, finally assuming a retconned and consistent form in later lore. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 07 Dec 2010 23:19:13 |
|
|
|
Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 23:39:13
|
Ah! Thank you guys for the discussion! This helps quite a bit.
Did you know that in Races of Faerun, there is a feat called "Southern Magician", which adds divine spells to wizard spell lists? It's one of the main ways, other than "Arcane Disciple" from Complete Divine, or Rainbow Servant, also from Complete Divine, to get Divine spells cast as Arcane spells. Of the three, is only "Southern Magician" Faerun specific? And going and looking at my (now quite edited) post 3/4ths down the first page of this topic for the list of things Wizards can do... other than the Southern Magician feat, what might be the more common ways in faerun to do this that exist? Or is Arcane Disciple another example of Southern Magic? How about Rainbow Servant? Are Coatl's at all associated with the areas that Southern Magicians came from?
Also, I'm curious -- why can Weave-using Bards Heal? |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 07 Dec 2010 23:49:42 |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2010 : 23:42:55
|
Because WotC put it on their spell lists.
Sorry to be flippant, but sometimes there isn't a deeper answer. Not even at Candlekeep. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 00:08:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Also, note that Mystra's Chosen - who worship the goddess of Arcane Magic but are NOT priests - can all heal with Silver Fire (which makes the Simbul's spell both redundant and ridiculous).
Unless she developed it before learning to heal herself with silver fire, and/or with non-Chosen in mind.
I'm thinking that's the case. And it wouldn't be too out of character for the Simbul to attempt such.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 00:11:16
|
The most important point to remember about the North/South magic... is that folk of the North -- the lands north and west of the Inner Sea -- perceive Southern magic to be strange, powerful, unpredictable and frightening.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 03:29:54
|
| I checked, and Synestodwoemer is in page 318 of the Spell Compendium, and it is 1d8/spell level of the other spells you cast. Synestodwoemer only lasts 1 round though, so you will only likely get off one spell (synesto is a swift action), unless you time stop or use other resources to get more standard actions or cast a spell as a move action (there are a few I think that are move actions). |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 06:08:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gavinfoxx
I checked, and Synestodwoemer is in page 318 of the Spell Compendium, and it is 1d8/spell level of the other spells you cast. Synestodwoemer only lasts 1 round though, so you will only likely get off one spell (synesto is a swift action), unless you time stop or use other resources to get more standard actions or cast a spell as a move action (there are a few I think that are move actions).
They've changed it, then. The original write-up (in the old Forgotten Realms Adventures hardcover) specified two hit points per level of the next spell you cast, after the Simbul's Synostodweomer. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 06:42:37
|
| 1d8/level isn't a lot.... seeing as how a wand of lesser vigor can get you 11 hit points a pop, x50, for 750 gp, as a first level spell... 1d8 is only 4.5 on average.. hit points in 3.5e are a bit higher than 2e, since you can get your con bonus so high at higher levels, I believe. The Symbul spell makes NO adjustments for the caster level of the spells used or anything like that at all... it's really pretty pitiful... especially compared to the LARGE number of ways healing can happen from wizards in 3e |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 08 Dec 2010 06:44:47 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 06:43:44
|
Give up a 7th and a 9th level spell to heal 18 hit points. A steep cost for about the same effect as a 9th level paladin's Lay on Hands or a Potion of Extra-Healing or Cure Moderate Wounds.
I've always criticized Synostodweomer for being far too weak, even with my preference for wizard-magic-equals-bad-healer. Consider that arcane versions of Reincarnate, Regenerate, Raise Dead, Restoration, Neutralize Poison, etc all exist at roughly the same levels as their priestly counterparts ... I would think that the biological processes involved in these ("white" necromancy) magics would be far more complex than just closing up a nasty gash. Many other spells (like Polymorph) should also be somewhat useful for repairing broken flesh. I can only surmise that priesty types possess training in "medicine" which wizards don't; and even then there's the flaw that many wizards select healing and herbalism proficiencies, a few (particularly necromancers) also study anatomy and are skilled at surgery.
This one particular spell has simply been unavailable in my game; I don't want to bother "balancing" it out and then discovering a whole can of worms when players argue for wizard "healing" spells of different kinds. In this regard I express my sympathy for D&D game designers.
Interestingly, most priest classes are capable of casting spells like Produce Flame, Call Lightning, and Flame Strike which are actually better than many "blasting" spells of same level available to wizards. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Dec 2010 06:45:34 |
|
|
|
althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 07:49:06
|
These thoughts are outside the realms, but when I was talking with others about
the magic system in 1ed/2ed, my group talked about how clerical magic was part
and parcel to the positive energy plane, and that arcane magic was either all
constructed from the shadow plane or the negative energy plane, and that was why
the difference between wizards and clerics.
Sorry this is way outside what was discussed here. |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 19:46:01
|
althen, your comment is exactly what's discussed here.quote:
Quale
probably something about the arcane magic being the magic of the Prime, where negative and positive energy cancel each other, while the divine magic caster channels the energy of from the divine realms, not of the Prime
Arcane magic has often been described as some kind of "external" or "background" energy which a wizard can manipulate, through study and intellect, with spell formulae. This has never been a perfect description.
Whereas a priest doesn't use his intellect to form and shape the magic, he instead channels his will and faith into being a "conduit" for magic shaped by his divine power (in effect, the god acts as a wizard but his actions are limited by the capacities of his conduit, ie: the priest's faith, devotion, and experience). |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 20:10:16
|
'Some' Arcane magic is tied to the negative Energy Plane (Necromantic, etc), but not all.
Elemental magic is tied directly to the Material plane, and that is why it is the easiest to access. I don't think Kara-Tur's Shukenja and Zakhara's Sha'ir (not the similarity to the term 'Sorcerer') bother with the Weave at all - they treat with the powers of nature (Elemental beings) for their magic, which requires neither divine* nor shadow.
The problem with earlier iterations of D&D magic was that 'good' spell-casters could use some necromantic magics, as could some good priests, which shouldn't really be. One of the biggest reasons why FR magic should have been kept separate from standard D&D magic is that FR magic had more logic to it - you could precariously walk a fine line for a awhile, but eventually you would have to 'choose a path'. Normal D&D magic does not make any such assumptions.
The Weave is a nice fix, because it allows casters to 'dip into' all sorts of magics, without the normal pre-requisite alignment-leanings. The Shadoweave really messed-up Ed's original model, in that if a 'Shadoweave' exists, then why does the regular Weave handle Shadow and necromantic magics? The Weave CANNOT be neutral, as it was intended, if its counterpart is at one end of the spectrum. The ONLY way this model could function is if their were a third, Radiant Weave, which AFAWK, there isn't (although the Radiant Weave may be construed as "what was left" after millenia of Shar siphoning her own Weave/Power back out of Mystra's).
I need to think more on this: to make sense of things, there should be lore that Mystra's Weave didn't really do the same things as Necromantic/Shadow magic - it merely imitated their effects with Radiant Energy. Ergo, a Lich created with The Weave would have actually used positive energy - an Arcane Lich, as opposed to a 'Necromantic' lich.
The problem being that if this were the case, then Mages should be able to cast healing magics... which is why I have to fall-back on my earlier argument that it was entirely possible, but Mystra purposely denied these magics (in most cases) to Mages to insure that the people of Toril 'remained Faithful' (she herself depended heavily upon Faith).
*Technically Shukenja are a divine class, BUT the Celestial Bureaucracy is set-up quite a bit different then most standard Pantheons, and 'nature spirits' (Kami) are part of that. Most Shukenja pay lip-service to the CB (as everyone in OA lands do), BUT they almost always have a 'patron spirit', which would be a local nature-spirit. Shukenja commune with these spirits frequently, just as the Arabian Sha'ir communicates with his Gen to get his spells. Note also how this is VERY similar to how witches in folklore behave - the require a Familiar to get their spells. From what I gather, ALL Magic (aside from psionic, which isn't really 'magic' at all) requires an 'outside force' - some 'other-worldy' being that either gives them the secret of casting spells, or the energy itself. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 08 Dec 2010 20:18:20 |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 20:32:05
|
| MT, Noticed your little note down below- witches traditionally don't REQUIRE a familiar to "get spells", they use them much like a messenger and a booster for their spells instead. the idea was that the familiar was a sort of personal servant to help in their spellworking, by increasing the power, communicating with "demons" or other spirits that the witch dealt with, and by assisting in finding ingrediants. The familiar was a guide and helper, not just a tool or even a conduit. Just clearing that up. Otherwise, your analogies are good. :) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Gavinfoxx
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 20:36:23
|
What's wrong with the Weave handling necromantic magic? In 3.Xe I mean?
There is a LOT of things under the aegis of "Necromancy" in D&D, from things that channel negative energy to raise undead, to various curses, to lots of fear effects, to things that channel POSITIVE energy, presumably from the Positive Energy Plane, like the cantrip "Disrupt Undead" and it's greater version, to Gentle Repose, to spells that do the 'heal a little harm a little' sort of thing, to some direct damage, to lots of ability damage spells, etc. etc. And many of these weren't particularly evil... Not all, of course, but many weren't!
Why shouldn't the Weave handle those things? Thoes are all necromancy...
Also, many of the spells that are necromantic themed are actually Conjuration spells, which is definitely within the realm of the Weave, is it not? |
Edited by - Gavinfoxx on 08 Dec 2010 20:53:48 |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 20:54:46
|
quote:
Gavinfoxx
What's wrong with the Weave handling necromantic magic? In 3.Xe I mean?
Nothing ... I don't think anybody made that statement. Many necromancies draw upon the Weave.
I think Markus was trying to say contact with the "sources" of necro magics (Planes of Shadow, Negative Energy, Void, etc) is inconsistent with (and perhaps a "corrupting" influence upon) presumably good-aligned PC wizards. Installing the Weave to act as a filter/buffer intermediary allows "bad" magic to flow (under Mystra's direction) in a "safer" way.
The Shadow Weave didn't "mess up Ed's original model", exactly. It wasn't originally part of the Realms/Weave conception and shadowmagic itself hardly existed (introduced in 2E TOM, I think, after the Realms had been around for years); the Shadow Weave had to be "added" and likewise the explanations associated with Shar/etc had to be added as well (or retconned, if you play older editions). Ed is a masterful creator, but credit must go to other creators as well: the Shadow Weave was not part of Ed's design but - I think - was itself masterfully done and the Realms are richer and better with it included. A handful of shadow-related spells, as well as monsters like shadows and shades, did exist in 1E but were not properly treated as a unified "school" or system of magic before this.
Necromancy itself is a bit troublesome from a game context. "Good" necromancy provides healing, vitality, health and happiness. "Bad" necromancy provides all sorts of gruesome/disgusting/horrifying new ways to suffer in both life and death. Priests are generally easy to sort out because they worship a good/evil divine power. Wizards are tougher, since the all-encompassing school of necromancy lets them simultaneously excel at both. In hindsight, we would've been served well by 2E splitting necro into two opposed schools to establish a clearer distinction for posterity. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Dec 2010 21:02:59 |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2010 : 21:26:38
|
It's still self-contradictory, though. The nice/dark necro magics might have different effects and applications but still basically draw from overlapping knowledge and methods. Even enchantment and illusion/phantasm has huge muddy ground, at least insofar as spells which affect a creature's mind; a greater problem still when necro spells (which oppose illusion) can also affect the mind. A school like alteration uses a blanket description of "magic which somehow induces a change" ... well, that could basically mean all magic, if you think about.
Markus's suggestion that wizards instead draw spell magics from "links" to various inner/elemental/energy planes is good. I expect priests would then draw spells from the outer planes instead. Still, even this seems somewhat arbitrary; what's the real difference between a priest and a wizard, and why would each one excel at some kinds of magic denied to the other? Priests-heal-and-wizards-blast is really no less arbitrary than any other division, if the distinction is made at all then the line is fuzzy no matter where it's drawn.
2E's magic system is far from perfect but did a good job of organizing the 1E mess (at least for a while). 3E managed to correct many of 2E's subtler flaws but didn't really address the core priest-wizard issue; although I think 3E is very much improved over 2E it's still evident that (over time) it created new problems of it's own. 4E seems to be something of a middle ground, drawing elements from all three (or 4, or 10) previous editions ... again, it fixes a lot of troubling details but introduces some troubling quirks itself and (over time) will likely become a big mess that requires a 5E cleanup.
Why can't wizards heal? It's the way D&D has always been designed. Take it as is or adjust it as you see fit. One solution would be to do away entirely with the wizard school of necromancy and just shift all the necro spells into priest spheres, turn the necromancers into dark priests, and step away with a smile. Even that would only solve some magic problems while introducing more. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 08 Dec 2010 21:28:35 |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
What is the lore reason Arcane Magic can't heal?
