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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 07:29:45
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The Candlekeep search genie reveals many hundreds of scrolls involving the terms "time" and "travel", far too many pages for me to read and patiently analyze. Proficient google-fu is similarly flooded with inconsequentialities; yet I dare not impose more filters for fear of excluding valuable lore.
Can anyone provide links to other scrolls with useful discussion about this topic? (Yes, I'm assuming this is an oft-recurring subject.)
What methods for time travel exist outside of those described in Netheril? (Yes, I've read Netheril most carefully.)
Which canon and third party D&D sourcebooks (any rules edition) deal substantially with time travel and Chronomancers, of whom I know nothing beyond their name and what it implies?
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Edited by - Ayrik on 23 Nov 2010 10:04:03
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 09:47:37
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other than time gates, not sure, Empires of the Shining Sea, has a story about the Djen from Zakhara 500 years ago travelling to the Era of Skyfire Calimshan
also Myth Adofhaor time-shifted into the future
in Mystara (Immortals) there are megalith creatures that exist outside of time |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 14:52:24
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| Well, there is the 2E supplement "Chronomancer" (which, unless I am mistaken, was one of the supplements originally prepared for Mayfair Games RoleAids line, which TSR/WotC took in after settling with Mayfair Games in their dispute on the aforementioned RoleAids line). |
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 15:50:54
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| There's a bit of info in the first several pages of Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves, as well. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 17:58:09
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Actually, I'm not sure that it is a commonly-discussed topic. I can't think of any scrolls on it over the past few years. Topics about things in the past, certainly, but not much on actual time travel.
Part of that is because of how locked-down FR is from a time travel perspective. I always thought that was a bit unfair; put out an entire rulebook on how to be a time traveling wizard, and then in the back stick a note saying essentially, "Oh yeah, and none of this stuff works in Faerun." I ran a chronomancer campaign some years back that threw that rule (and several others) out the window from the get-go, and it was a lot of fun. But I can't think off-hand of any discussions here at the Keep about it. What are you looking for? |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 02:54:08
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No Sage, we're not talking about Sage time either.
Poor guy will never get things straightened out
if you introduce that variable to him. :P |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 03:18:18
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quote:
Originally posted by althen artren
No Sage, we're not talking about Sage time either.
Poor guy will never get things straightened out
if you introduce that variable to him. :P
I'll be honest here... I actually forgot about this, even after Arik reminded me again, earlier in the month.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2010 : 11:46:46
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I think Sage just takes a random number and divides it by zero at the end of every day, putting him in a time loophole, repeating the same day all the time (groundhog day?), which explains his incomplete to-do list, as well as his waning memory. 
But on topic, I am using the Alabaster Pillars in the Scepter Tower of Spellgard as a way to open a portal to the time of the Fall of Netheril (maybe using a nearby alternate route back in time by using the Reversed Obelisks near Spellgard). |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 12:57:54
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| I have a great dislike for anything partaining to time travel. I just can't stand the headaches it brings up when trying to make sense of the consequences of meddling with the past. Travel to a time beyond a mere moments (up to a round) before I can handle without having my head start spinning. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 14:13:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
I have a great dislike for anything partaining to time travel. I just can't stand the headaches it brings up when trying to make sense of the consequences of meddling with the past. Travel to a time beyond a mere moments (up to a round) before I can handle without having my head start spinning.
Well, one of the classic cop-outs from that one (and as a GM, I have used it) was that the meddling with the past was what created the past as the characters know it. A classic one would be for the adventurers to go back in time and kill the big baddie. They do their research, and come up with the moment, the time, etc. They go out, and do the deed, only to return and find that nothing has happened: The bid baddie that they know is not the person they offed in the past - mistaken identity, or the real baddie took over the victim's identity, or the victim was the right person, but was resurrected / cloned / undeaded and not in a good mood once (s)(h)(e)(it) recovered from being dead.... If the characters had NOT gone back in time and done their meddling, their present would be different from what they know.
It's a trick you cannot use often without losing credibility or without frustrating player characters but, then again, time travel should be a rare enough occurence anyway. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2010 : 15:13:39
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The Chronomancer book dealt with that idea and called it, iirc, historical intertia (or maybe momentum). Basically, the larger the event was that you were trying to change, the harder it became. Essentially, the time stream took the simplest route to fixing problems caused by time travellers.
One example I remember was a scenario where a chronomancer goes back to kill an enemy general that beat the chronomancer's nation. The general dies, but when the chronomancer returns to his time, nothing's changed. The reason is that temporal prime found the easiest way to account for the problem was to have had the general be inept, and his second in command be the one who was the true genius and leader. In the original, the second in command had to work behind the scenes to lead the army to victory; when the chronomancer killed the general, it just brought the second into the limelight and history unfolded as it already had.
I like this concept for a couple of reasons. First, it makes a sort of intuitive sense, and second because it makes any chronomancers really work to change the past in anything other than minor ways. It's not impossible, but it does keep you from having to completely rewrite history every time your PC's make a small change. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2010 : 10:10:05
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This historical inertia concept seems to be the standard approach in D&D canon, sometimes explained with the "time is a river" analogy; the river will flow as the river flows, a few drops of time being added or moved won't change where it all goes. The events of the past are fated to occur and cannot be altered or prevented in any substantial way. Killing a tyrant just means another (essentially identical) tyrant will take his place, or perhaps the original tyrant will somehow survive an "assassination attempt", or his name is merely recorded incorrectly in the histories. Characters still have free will and can do things; their actions are simply assumed to be inconsequential or unobserved enough to not be recorded (accurately) in future histories. Prophecies can divine (fated and largely inescapable) future events which will occur further along the river. The Time Travel spell (and rules) in Arcane Ages prefer to conform to this methodology; they basically state quite baldly that if the DM allows his characters to cut his setting out of historical canon then he's entirely on his own in all "future" improvisations.
The other popular model is the deterministic universe, where time has a "snowball" or "butterfly effect" whereby events from the past multiply causal effects in an unpredictable (chaotic) manner; given enough time, the death of a single butterfly could dramatically change whole worlds and civilizations. D&D canon generally does not subscribe to this idea (although it inconsistently dabbles in a few cases, such as when Raistlin is confronted by his brother in a "possible" future). Temporal paradoxes (impossible inconsistencies) are explained as creating branches into "alternate futures" (quantum physics and sci-fi style) or being irrevocably impossible to actually implement ("river of time" style, as preferred by Stephen Hawking's "self-consistent universe" theories).
Some cosmologists and philosophers attempt to mix both theories; the "river of time" has infinite tributaries, forks, and whirlpools; temporal paradoxes form "loops" or "whorls" of time which flow away or intermingle and most eventually rejoin or merge into "baseline" timestream events. The river itself is mapped by wherever the most time is seen to be flowing, it doesn't follow an eternally consistent course. Such is the stuff of theories which attempt to unify relativity and quantum physics.
My OP time travel questions should have been more specific, so:
First, the facts:
It is asserted that the deities Mystryl and Mystra govern time. Or more accurately, they govern time travel. As written, time travel in the Realms (by any means) is simply impossible unless Mystra allows it.
It is suggested that Amaunator/Lathander has claimed time as part of his portfolio, or perhaps this claim is made by a draconic deity. It is also hinted that time may instead fall under Ao's governance, or that of some unknown (divine, primordial, or elemental?) powers from foreign pantheons who maintain timeflow for the entire cosmos (or at least the parts of the cosmos occupied by Realmspace). It is also occasionally handwaved off with an explanation that the flow of time is fundamentally and universally constant and therefore entirely beyond the manifest of divine (and superdivine Ao-level) powers.
It is well known that Mystryl perished during the Ascension of Karsus (-339DR), her successor Mystra perished in the Time of Troubles (1358DR), and their successor Mystra-Midnight perished in the Spellplague (1385DR). It's logical to assume that the "newest" Mystra administration is as susceptible to termination as were those of her predecessors.
I haven't yet read any D&D Chronomancer lore of any kind, so perhaps my facts are incomplete or inaccurate. I've avoided references taken from D&D Immortals lore since it's inconsistent with the Realms canon described above.
The speculation:
Why is a deity of time even necessary? One reason might be that time (in the Realms, at least) has a tendency to flow unevenly, moments and events (even people, places, and things) can sometimes fall out of "normal" sequence and be displaced by minutes or decades - in fact, this might helpfully explain historical errors and retcons in canon (as different observers at different times record nonsequential or paradoxical events experienced from displaced bubbles of time). In a sense, the god/goddess of time is required to maintain (and police) the "river of time" itself. (Or perhaps exists only to impose arbitrary restrictions on time travel, though it may also be that, as in our world, time travel is simply impossible without such divine oversight, thus rendering any perceived "restrictions" academic.) It's also possible that the god/goddess of time stores anomalous fragments or measures of time within temporal capacitors/reservoirs or even within random/chosen individuals scattered throughout the Realms <coughSagecough> and time flow is mysteriously inconstant within the immediate proximity of such things whenever they are charged/discharged or sporadically "leak" out.
It seems that the deaths of the three goddesses of magic (and time) did not halt nor impede the flow of time in the Realms. But who knows? Maybe all of Realmspace was (or indeed, still is) somehow disconnected from the "normal" flow of time? Perhaps a single crystalline instant passed within the amber-trapped Realms whilst the Blood War continued to roil unabated across the planes for countless millennia? Or perhaps the reverse is true and subjective centuries passed within the accelerated Realms in a single blink of an external observer's eye? This all seems very unlikely to me, though it is not patently impossible. Perhaps it might make correlating calendars between Realmspace and other worlds an easier task, allowing a method to compensate for indefinite "gaps" and discrepancies in the rates of recorded history between the worlds?
And now my real question:
When the god/goddess of time dies there is a period, ranging from instants to months, where "nobody" maintains time (or time travel, at the least). It turns out these periods have (thus far) coincided with a worldwide collapse and destabilization of the Weave which sustains time travel magics. Wouldn't this mean that a time traveller would halt at an impassable "barrier", essentially a wall of time composed of an instant where the magic of time travel is impossible? At the least because the (dead) Weave no longer functions as a "road" or is, at best, a dangerously (probably lethally) erratic series of wild magic "speed bumps"? In a way, I would suggest that time travel (if not time itself) within the Realms is boundaried in both past and future by events which involve the death of whichever power is in charge of maintaining time. At the very least, time travel to any period earlier than the first instant following the most recent no-time-goddess-RSE shouldn't be possible, and being "stopped" at the first instant of the next no-time-goddess-RSE (then waiting it all out) should make it impossible to return.
How is this explained?
Note - there should be a fair population of time travelers "stuck" in the past, many stranded in the time immediately following their most recent no-time-goddess-RSE "border" (assuming their "crash" into the "barrier" at high temporal velocity broke something), likewise, any who travel to the future and reach the next no-time-goddess-RSE "border" should be lost and never heard from again until history catches up to them. Maybe these "barriers" help protect the Realms from excessive chronological tampering? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 04 Dec 2010 17:00:14 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2010 : 12:40:22
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| The way I dealt with the paradoxes in the campaign is that the pcs are always in their own timeline, whatever happens in other dimensions is irrelevant cause they are not experiencing it, it's solipsistic. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2010 : 12:55:53
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I can't accept the Realms as being a solipsistic entity because I'm an external observer.  |
[/Ayrik] |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2010 : 16:53:12
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Now I know Time is somewhat watched over by Mystra, but it's not part of her portfolio.
In fact, the "Four from Cormyr" book has evidence of a deity of time named Chronos (and also known as Kronus or Karonis) that became forgotten and is sort of "dead". There was only 1 sole worshipper to him in the book. Who this deity is, what has happened, and when was this deity firmly worshipped I don't know. But they gave his names as aliases to the elven deity, Labelas Enoreth, who is the only official deity of time in the Realms. He's elven, but if he subsumed Chronos that only means that anyone serving this deity is really serving Labelas (just like those serving Ibrandul is secretly serving Shar). |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2010 : 17:01:58
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| Anyone who owns a sundial or waterclock or steam-powered gnomish wristwatch is worshipping the time god/goddess in some small way. Assuming such a divine entity exists. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2010 : 17:15:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Anyone who owns a sundial or waterclock or steam-powered gnomish wristwatch is worshipping the time god/goddess in some small way. Assuming such a divine entity exists.
I wouldn't say that marking the passage of time is a form of worship... That's kinda like saying sitting on the beach is worshipping Umberlee, or drawing water from a stream is worshipping Eldath. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2010 : 17:45:05
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True enough, wooly.
I'll admit I never thought of Umberlee as a goddess of sunny beaches. Or does she have a lesser aspect worshipped in sunny Calimshan (known as The Hazel Hoff) whose clergy looks like this? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2010 : 23:57:45
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See my head is already starting to spin!
I'll add that the river of time analogy helps spin my head towards a more constant event horizon point, though.
Diviners are perhaps skilled in pirouetting through a time river while focussing on a single point in the future they want an answer for (similar to the main method to perform a good roundhouse kick in several succesions ). |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 00:10:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Anyone who owns a sundial or waterclock or steam-powered gnomish wristwatch is worshipping the time god/goddess in some small way. Assuming such a divine entity exists.
The Faerūnian pantheon does not have a specific deity of time any more. Mystryl was the Netherese deity of time, even though Amaunator believed he was actually the deity of time [see Amaunator's entry in F&A].
The absence of any Time portfolio among any pantheons [excluding that held by Labelas] indicates that there is currently no true emphasis of the Time portfolio on Toril at this point. I'm content to believe that the Time portfolio is currently unclaimed in the human pantheons... it's largely supported by the lore and we've seen nothing to suggest otherwise at this point. Eric may have other ideas for the portfolio itself... something that couldn't be explored properly in the material for F&P or LEoF and so held back on it until it could be treated completely:-
"I agree, it's pretty unclear at the moment, and I'm not sure I'd want to be definitive about it until some future project (I have nothing in mind) called for it. (In other words, leave room for further development.)
--Eric"
...
For myself, I'd say it should probably be given to Jergal. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 01:35:58
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| Jergal's an interesting choice. More likely some new god will be created/imported (if/when needed), I'd suspect. Hopefully not a handover to the Seldarine or some recycled titan. Karsus would be an interesting choice, too, heeheehee ... |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 04:52:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Jergal's an interesting choice. More likely some new god will be created/imported (if/when needed), I'd suspect. Hopefully not a handover to the Seldarine or some recycled titan. Karsus would be an interesting choice, too, heeheehee ...
God of the Moment being in charge of all moments? I can't see that one, myself. I think that as a deity, Karsus and Finder would be arguing over who was more appropriate as the God of Reckless Fools.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 06:12:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Jergal's an interesting choice. More likely some new god will be created/imported (if/when needed), I'd suspect. Hopefully not a handover to the Seldarine or some recycled titan. Karsus would be an interesting choice, too, heeheehee ...
God of the Moment being in charge of all moments? I can't see that one, myself. I think that as a deity, Karsus and Finder would be arguing over who was more appropriate as the God of Reckless Fools.
What's that belief about "living forever in a moment?" Maybe that's what the Momentary God believed too. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 06:40:34
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Perhaps the time portfolio should go to Faluzure? Dragons, after all, have more time to kill than any other race. Seems like a logical choice. And I'd like to see more draconic deities in the Realms.
Side-note- that bit on Kronus sounds interesting. I actually do have a time deity in my HB campaign world. Two of them, actually- one for time itself, and another for "seeing" into it. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 05 Dec 2010 06:48:22 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 08:42:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Perhaps the time portfolio should go to Faluzure? Dragons, after all, have more time to kill than any other race. Seems like a logical choice. And I'd like to see more draconic deities in the Realms.
Side-note- that bit on Kronus sounds interesting. I actually do have a time deity in my HB campaign world. Two of them, actually- one for time itself, and another for "seeing" into it.
Chronos is [was] an alias of Labelas.
Interestingly, I've also thought about the possibility that the Time portfolio may have ended up in the hands of Labelas...
To which, Eric added:- "...depending on whether you see the human kingdom of Orva being a Netherese survivor state."
Orva's status as a human kingdom is probable [see the 'Orva' details in the second paragraph of Labelas's entry], according to Eric, who said:- "I add the [probable] qualifier because I had to insert a little bit of Realmslore in Demihuman Deities in the write-up of Labelas Enoreth. (Look at the alias list.) This was to patch up the lack of a time portfolio among any human Realms god and because the only gods left to detail at the time were nonhuman gods.
--Eric" |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 10:41:12
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| Talos or Shar - Time is entropy. Every moment destroys the one before, then is forever lost. Chaos is eternal. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 11:08:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Talos or Shar - Time is entropy. Every moment destroys the one before, then is forever lost. Chaos is eternal.
Oghma, I think, would be an interesting choice as well. Each moment carries with it information of what has gone before, what is now, and what is to come. Certainly the protection of such knowledge, and the continuum it rests upon, could also fall under the aegis of the Binder Of What Is Known.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - The Sage on 05 Dec 2010 11:08:49 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7974 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2010 : 13:26:01
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| I've added Chronomancer (whatever I can find) to my shopping list ... >growl< |
[/Ayrik] |
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Time travel in the Realms
