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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 08:45:23
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off topic:
Do you guys keep on getting the script error? I do. Seems like Sage hasn't yet caught and quarantined all the gremlins. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 09:06:18
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| Yeah occasionally I do and then it will go away, it led to a triple post earlier tonight but then suddenly went away and everything was fine. |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 17:26:31
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
In addition, what really vexes me is when a character refuses to do what he really, honestly wants just because what he needs, as directed by his order, should come above everything else. For instance, in the thick of the battle, a knight is informed by his fellow knight that his daughter is in grave danger as their city is attacked by rampaging dragons, with hardly no one to defend the city nor its inhabitants as most of the knights rally against the massive forces of a demented necromancer in the neighboring city. His order compels him to remain and fight, as all of them have to stop the necromancer in order to make the dragons sane again and cease besieging their city. He loves his daughter more than anyone or anything else, but he can't ignore his order's needs. So leave her to be torn, munched, and swallowed by insane dragons he does. Hah! Preposterous! Every time I read something like this, my 'tolerance dam' bursts, and I forthwith throw the book. The Real World is already fraught with absurdity. Why on earth would I want to see it in fiction, too?!
The example knight here has a conflict with his personal code and values opposed to his orders codified values. A wise order recognizes such, and would respect ANY decision a knight made to a degree. Of course the Order would have to follow through with any punishments they have devised for transgression of the code of honor, but would value their member and his decision nonetheless.
I think even chaotic societies abide by codes of honor. They'll likely have less severe repercussion for those decisions that are made on personal levels, and atonement is often a more swift and easy proces than a lawful order or society would have. I'll try to categorize a elven Bladesingers code below to give an example.
A Bladesinger of the Black Cat lodge shall above all things (in order of importance):
* Spend at least one hour each day in meditation
* Spend at least one hour each day in training of the seven forms
* Be as brave as a lion
* Be as cunning as a fox
* Be as wise as an owl
* Never strike the defenseless
* Seek, by deed, to spread the word of the Seldarine – on arrival at any new settlement, the bladesinger must spread the word of his elflord if he has one and inform of any threats to the People by telling a tale of his heroic deeds against them
* Offer succor and tending to all the People who suffer any ill
* Pay homage at any temple, shrine, or altar to the Seldarine before all things. At any image, temple, or place of worship, from the humblest roadside shrine to the greatest portals to fey-realm palaces, they must spend at least some minutes in meditation or hours in training.
The following conducts can be upheld as the bladesinger deems himself worthy of the tasks:
* Offer service to any elflord who owns a stronghold who worships the Seldarine. The service is but done, if it is in keeping with the lodge's beliefs, but can be from the humblest and most menial task to the most glorious and demanding.
* Teach others the way of the bladesinger by seeking worthy successors spreading his image – Once the bladesinger has mastered the Seven Forms (usually after two centuries), the bladesinger must create a lodge. This lodge from then on acts as a center of wisdom of the Seldarine, academy of warfare, and school of the Arts for as long as the bladesingers students need be taught. The bladesinger must seek to instill the lodge's totem with the aspect of the Black Cat and gain the blessing of a Black Cat spirit or animal lord. He than creates this lodge and its totem with his own toil and sweat. The resulting lodge gains the effect of an alterable Mirage spell at the bladesingers CL.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 18:31:16
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I could have been more diplomatic, but I chose trollish wording (and a one-sided position) in presenting arguments that would provoke a response. Yes, there are some specific flaws in the arguments I presented.
I personally don't understand the requirement for a strictly regimented code, unless there is a tacit understanding that there are always those (within and without the order) who will need to be policed or punished for violating the tenets.
In RL, for example, I have no real idea about how the specific "laws of the land" are written. Yet I know that things like theft, assault, murder, and rape are wrong; I won't even commit crimes of trespass or piracy, even though I'm not always entirely certain that in fact a "crime" even exists. This all being done without any need to hammer a strict legal codex into my thought and deed. I think it's reasonably fair to generalize my example to the population at large. Criminals, too, know the law (probably better than I do) yet clearly feel unrestricted by the rules.
Clearly we have written laws, indeed, rather convoluted and arcanely intricate ones. We also have champions who are often presented as honourbound to enforce the law for everybody. (I understand that Law and Honour are not the same thing, but I think they can be interchangeably served well enough within this example. Maybe we just live in a Lawful Neutral society, where legal consistency takes precedence and justice is an afterthought. Heavy topic in itself, better discussed outside the hallowed halls of Candlekeep.) |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 21:34:21
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Lawful Neutral? Funny, I've always considered it Chaotic Neutral. Some laws are just ridiculous, and are only sporadically enforced in any case. The difference is that laws dealing with "honor" are pretty much universal, whereas other laws are largely dependent on the society that makes them, and their own specific needs and views. A Samurai's lord telling him to fight an enemy would be honor-bound to do so, whether he personally believed it was warranted or not. To use dennis's point, it is not his own desire, but it is a part of his code of honor. That's not being stupid, it's just doing what is right by his society's code of honor. In the case of the firefighter, the chances are that if he went to the girl, he would not even be able to talk her down in any event, since she is already at the point of killing herself over a guy who probably would not show up. His being there might even make the situation worse, in which case, how would HE live with knowing that he could save neither her nor the people he could have saved by staying with his team?
There are too many variables to consider, and honor generally boils things down to choosing the lesser of two evils. And who is to say that the knight remaining in the battle does not also want to be there with his allies? The funny thing about honor is that it is more than just a set of rules dictating who we act, but it is a part of our very being- it is part of our deepest personal beliefs and ideals. It's oversimplifying things to say that doing what is right means ignoring what we truly want, for if we did not truly WANT to do what is right, then no one would ever choose to act according to a code of honor in the first place! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2010 : 23:02:00
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The society you describe, Alystra, seems almost Lawful Evil to me. Laws are written and enforced most often to manipulate them into serving selfish or corrupt purposes, especially by those who possess greatest power within the society. Laws written for the betterment of society in general are only incidental and poorly enforced.
My own homeland is seemingly ruled by firmly entrenched layers of incomprehensible modron-like bureaucracy and bureaucrats, while the politicians and leaders function more as figureheads and (disposable, but easily recycled) scapegoats. It's worse than the left and right hands not knowing what the other is doing, they distribute their offices on opposite coasts which speak and write in two official languages - I've often said that you need two of these guys to make a single half-wit.
Let me shift my footing on this argument:
A rigidly codified system of honour is demonstrated in the (very Lawful, very Good) Solamnic Knights of Krynn. They deeply revere the Oath and the Measure - the Oath is straightforward (Est Sularus Oth Mithas, My Honour Is My Life) whereas the Measure is a complicated lengthy codex of strictly defined examples, judgements, histories, tales, and passages that explicitly describe (in a stuffy dead pseudo-latin language) the exact details of what their "honour" really demands from them on a very specific case-by-case basis. Various factions and orders within the Knights have conflicted in something of a civil war over differing interpretations and versions of the Measure. Only the most learned Knights are seen as worthy of deciding which course is honourable when new situations are encountered (and add their new dictates to the endless Measure).
The hero Sturm Brightblade, predictably enough, ultimately chose to sacrifice himself in an epic battle against evil, leading to much consternation among his companions (who generally felt that it was a tragic waste and perhaps not even really necessary). It was an honourable death.
This richly detailed material is readily imported (with some historical revision) into any order of knights/paladins located almost anywhere within the Realms, or pretty much any other setting which uses such characters.
But my question here is - outside of establishing some campaign background for the PC's Honourable Brotherhood, does the presence of this code really do anything to actually improve the character or the game? Is it really needed? Those who want to play honour-bound characters will have the initiative to consistently act with honour; the rules seem to just become extra paperwork and a way for the DM to "penalize" the players (or will at least be seen as such). To my mind the Oath and an alignment are all you really need and the Measure is just a needless weighty burden which is best left in your outhouse. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 20 Nov 2010 00:23:35 |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 00:22:06
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And this is why I have two concepts of honor, because no 25 people can
exactly agree with another about this topic. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 00:48:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Let me shift my footing on this argument:
A rigidly codified system of honour is demonstrated in the (very Lawful, very Good) Solamnic Knights of Krynn. They deeply revere the Oath and the Measure - the Oath is straightforward (Est Sularus Oth Mithas, My Honour Is My Life) whereas the Measure is a complicated lengthy codex of strictly defined examples, judgements, histories, tales, and passages that explicitly describe (in a stuffy dead pseudo-latin language) the exact details of what their "honour" really demands from them on a very specific case-by-case basis. Various factions and orders within the Knights have conflicted in something of a civil war over differing interpretations and versions of the Measure. Only the most learned Knights are seen as worthy of deciding which course is honourable when new situations are encountered (and add their new dictates to the endless Measure).
The hero Sturm Brightblade, predictably enough, ultimately chose to sacrifice himself in an epic battle against evil, leading to much consternation among his companions (who generally felt that it was a tragic waste and perhaps not even really necessary). It was an honourable death.
This richly detailed material is readily imported (with some historical revision) into any order of knights/paladins located almost anywhere within the Realms, or pretty much any other setting which uses such characters.
And there's an opportunity for creative DM's to drop something like this into the Realms -- though not entirely FR canon, there is a side-quest in Baldur's Gate II: The Shadows of Amn which involves the party helping a stranded group of Solamnic Knights return to Krynn. Perhaps a Realms knight among the adventuring party spoke [and learned] about the Solamnic Order from the Krynnish travellers, and was influenced by their dictates, to the point where he/she begun re-imagining this knowledge within a Realms context. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 01:07:43
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Arik, I see you're from Canada-so I won't make judgment on your country's government. But here in the states, although there are miles of red tape at every level, the basic laws are there to loosely enforce a certain code of rights and responsibilities- mostly based on morality- that society agrees on as being honorable. There are dozens of laws describing what is the right thing to do in just about any situation- such as whether to move an injured person from a burning or smoking vehicle, to name a recent example- which are there to protect people from prosecution or litigation for doing what they believe is right. But this does not mean that the laws in general are evil, rather that even the best intentioned rules can be bent to evil purposes by dishonorable and unprincipled people.
I called th US CN mainly because while it is founded on principles of honor and morality, there are numerous laws which just seem silly- like one for Oklahoma (a land-bound state) which prohibits harpooning whales in any body of water there. Really?! Someone actually TRIED this?! This is what I meant by CN. It serves no purpose what-so-ever, and makes no sense, but it is there all the same. Neither good nor bad, just silly. And there are literally HUNDREDS of useless and incomprehensible little laws like this, most of which are never even enforced. They have nothing to do with a belief in honor, even though that is supposed to be one of the basic tenets of the nation. It's like a pixie sneaked into the law books when no one was looking and scribbled a bunch of stuff in as a joke.
Sage, that is just too funny- I've never played that game, and now I want to! In regards to the Solamnic Knights, I never really saw Sturm as heroically sacrificing himself. He fought Kitiara- whom he had previously traveled with and KNEW had gone toward evil- which in itself was noble and honorable, but he fell because SHE was NOT honorable. He died on the end of the woman's spear, for pity's sake.
Edit: keep getting the script time error message. did I somehow end up on Sage Time? |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 20 Nov 2010 01:36:42 |
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Tren of Twilight Tower
Seeker
51 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 01:27:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Laws are written and enforced most often to manipulate them into serving selfish or corrupt purposes, especially by those who possess greatest power within the society. Laws written for the betterment of society in general are only incidental and poorly enforced.
Quoted for truth.
Also I agree with Arik's other statement as it goes along with my personal belief - there is basically three main "highways" that will influence development of honour in person: personal, situational and cultural.
Personal being the one that is "logically" developed, situational being imposed by circumstances/experiences, and cultural being enforced by society that person lives within.
Tren |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 02:10:46
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I should wonder how many chaotic pixie pranks have been scribbled into the wordy passages of the Measure? Already I can imagine groups of Knights solemnly patrolling the deserts and forests of Krynn, ever vigilant against the dire threat of whale poaching. It is what their honour demands they do.
quote:
Alystra Illianniis
I never really saw Sturm as heroically sacrificing himself. He fought Kitiara- whom he had previously traveled with and KNEW had gone toward evil- which in itself was noble and honorable, but he fell because SHE was NOT honorable. He died on the end of the woman's spear, for pity's sake.
But the important thing is that Sturm saw it as heroically sacrificing himself. I agree, Sturm made a nobly suicidal and utterly pointless decision and should not have been at all surprised by Kitiara's dirty fighting treachery, epic fail. It was an honourable death.
quote:
Edit: keep getting the script time error message. did I somehow end up on Sage Time?
I notice that the flow of Sage Time is mysteriously correlated with Sage's direct proximity. Though it seems that his gremlin constructs have somehow escaped their cages again ... they can be seen lurking on all the shelves, the flurry of their mechanical wings scattering scrolls into disarray. They have apparently seized control of most of Candlekeep's hidden portals and cast their baleful temperament towards denying entry to worthy scribes. Their leader is named "ASP 0113" and they will surely become quite tame once he is defeated. No doubt Sage is already quite busy amending this situation through the use of Detho's Debugging, Beltyn's Burning Backups, and Ioulaum's Installation. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 20 Nov 2010 19:35:06 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 05:09:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Edit: keep getting the script time error message. did I somehow end up on Sage Time?
My power is growing! 
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
quote:
Edit: keep getting the script time error message. did I somehow end up on Sage Time?
I notice that the flow of Sage Time is mysteriously correlated with Sage's direct proximity. Though it seems that his gremlin constructs have somehow escaped their cages again ... they can be seen lurking on all the shelves, the flurry of their mechanical wings scattering scrolls into disarray. They have apparently seized control of most of Candlekeep's hidden portals and cast their baleful temperament towards denying entry to worthy scribes. Their leader is named "ASP 0113" and they will surely become quite tame once he is defeated. No doubt Sage is already quite busy amending this situation through the use of Detho's Debugging, Beltyn's Burning Backups, and Ioulaum's Installation.
Consider those spells officially nabbed for the code-books of my Computer Programmer PrC. They'll have to be written in Assembly, though... since they're "core" spells.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7969 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 15:59:21
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| Bah! I'd rather play a PrC shackled by chains of honour than a Computer Programmer any day. As rigid and unnecessary (and perhaps pixie-lated) as the Code of Honour might be, it makes infinitely more sense than the arcane Code of Java. Plus at least a paladin gets a nice horse and a little respect. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 20 Nov 2010 16:01:10 |
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Concepts of Honor
