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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 03:47:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The Return of Shade had so much potential... And in my mind, it didn't even come close to the neighborhood of that potential, much less live up to its promise!
What promise is that?
Pretty sure that we've had this discussion before... But in short, I expected something other than "ancient enemy comes out of nowhere and proceeds to beat the crap out of all comers, despite logic indicating otherwise." I rather expected, among other things, that their return would explain, at least in part, some of the many changes to the Realms wrought by the 3E changeover.
Indeed we've had. So maybe we'll just leave it at that. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 06:57:07
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quote:
Originally posted by idilippy
Oh, I hadn't considered the drow pantheon's destruction as a RSE, but if so that would be up there with the Spellplague for me. I liked the drow having a non-good, non-Lolth god in Vhaeraun to follow, and the whole redeemed or not redeemed thing at the end had my head spinning. So suddenly half the race is "redeemed" by being turned apparently into normal elves, but are still stuck in the Underdark without any of the innate abilities that made them drow unless I missed something at the end of the last book. Also, what happens to the other half of the race, are they locked in as irredeemable by birth now or what?
That whole RSE just disappointed me, except for Ghaunadaur getting revealed as an ancient and powerful being, I thought it deserved to be more than an afterthought tossed into the Drow pantheon.
Yeah, I'm pretty much of the same mind on that one. I liked some of the characters, but honestly, wasn't Lolth powerful enough already? Why did she need an "upgrade"? And though I didn't mind loosing the blob god and the crazy undead witch, they really DO need that non-Lolth option, evil or otherwise. As near as I can tell, no, you didn't miss a thing. I had that same sour taste after reading the last book. So- what? They can't even THINK about becoming redeemed now?! Drow don't have free will? Where the Hells did THAT come from?!  And the idea of having half of the entire race now down in the Underdark without their abilities was just dumb. Even more so since they now LOOK different from the rest. Yeah... Might as well have just said they all got slaughtered- cause that's what would happen. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 11:15:07
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The potential of the Return of Shade was certainly wasted. And the LP series were just a so-bad-it-hurts follow-up to Lloth's Silence.
But the worst RSE were (in that order)
1. Spellplague
2. ToT
3. Fall of Netheril
4. Weeping War |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 11:41:35
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| Huh? The Dragonrage was an RSE? Really? I thought it was just a novel trilogy. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 12:50:11
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| YES. There are a lot of literal Realms-shaking happening in that trilogy. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 12:56:36
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| Wooly Rupert, what are your thoughts regarding "The Twilight War" trilogy by Paul S. Kemp? |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 13:30:10
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| I'll be short and sweet about this. As a Realms-addict - the Spellplague. Although, as an FR DM I'm not complaining, because the timejump gives me a stable environment in the 1350s to work with. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 14:02:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Acolyte Thirteen
If a deity is not listed in FRCG, has that deity been culled from the Realms??
Like most of FR4e, if it's not stated then more or less it remains unchanged. Take tons of the cities and locale NOT listed on the FRCG map. They might not be listed, but there still there unless otherwise taken out (like through a novel or DDi article).
And while they culled the Pantheon quite a lot for FR, it still has 2 to 3 times the amount of Deities and Exarchs that any other published setting has.
As for the question of the thread, for me it comes down to a few quibbles I have. I don't like the ToT on a grand scale save it now keeps the Deities in-line. They have to accept homage from their patrons on the Material plane and I like that.
The Dragon Rage was something I've never even read a novel about or heard talked that much about so I'd have to say that it's the worst because it was sorta pointless (though I can't make an accurate opinion since I don't know anything about it).
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 16:02:54
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Interesting point, especially since Candlekeep is generally regarded as a satellite state of Grognardia!
Although the Lady Penitent books eliminated, what, three deities? Is this really 'culling' the pantheons of the Realms? Besides Helm, what other deitied were eliminated in Print, as opposed to having no 4e development?
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by Acolyte Thirteen
If a deity is not listed in FRCG, has that deity been culled from the Realms??
Like most of FR4e, if it's not stated then more or less it remains unchanged. Take tons of the cities and locale NOT listed on the FRCG map. They might not be listed, but there still there unless otherwise taken out (like through a novel or DDi article).
And while they culled the Pantheon quite a lot for FR, it still has 2 to 3 times the amount of Deities and Exarchs that any other published setting has.
As for the question of the thread, for me it comes down to a few quibbles I have. I don't like the ToT on a grand scale save it now keeps the Deities in-line. They have to accept homage from their patrons on the Material plane and I like that.
The Dragon Rage was something I've never even read a novel about or heard talked that much about so I'd have to say that it's the worst because it was sorta pointless (though I can't make an accurate opinion since I don't know anything about it).
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Acolyte Thirteen
Seeker
93 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 16:14:40
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Oh, and I would like to add that the RSE that was the most poorly handled, in my opinion, was the RETURN OF MYSTRA. The whole thing comes out of nowhere, as opposed to the years of development over numerous products for the Murder of Mystra.
Indeed, after a lengthy novel rife with poor exposition, the closest thing to a 'climax' is in the Epilougue. Mystra's Return is never explained. A truly Realms Shaking Event, but with no further development. Too much, too fast!! |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 18:03:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Acolyte Thirteen
Interesting point, especially since Candlekeep is generally regarded as a satellite state of Grognardia!
Although the Lady Penitent books eliminated, what, three deities? Is this really 'culling' the pantheons of the Realms? Besides Helm, what other deitied were eliminated in Print, as opposed to having no 4e development?
Well....
- Tyr went off into the Abyss to kill as many demons as possible on a suicide mission. He was so upset with himself over killing Helm he left Celestia to Torm, Ilmater, and Bahamut to go down in a blaze of glory.
- Lathander sorta died and became Amaunator (and LG to boot!)
- There was a great battle between the Good-aligned dwarven gods and the evil-aligned dwarven gods and most (close to all) of the Duergar Gods were killed off along with a few (1 or 2 at least) good-aligned gods.
- Talos was revealed as an aspect of Grummsh and Sehanine Moonbow was revealed as an aspect of Selune. These really PO'ed Realms fans (espically those fans of Sehanine) because apparently some can't comprehend the fact that deities can change gender and race.
Additions include:
- Fzoul is an Exarch of Bane now.
[*]Obould is an Exarch of Gruumsh now.
And if you don't know what an Exarch is, it's sorta like a demi-human or lesser deity. An example is the Red Knight as an Exarch of Tempus.
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Edited by - Diffan on 10 Nov 2010 18:17:23 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 20:37:44
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Only in this bastion of negativity for a second . . .
quote:
Originally posted by Acolyte Thirteen
Besides Helm, what other deities were eliminated in Print, as opposed to having no 4e development?
(Emphasis mine)
Clearly you haven't read Downshadow. 
[And with that, the Master of the Shameless Plug sneaks off as quickly as possible!]
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 21:53:32
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If nothing else, this thread has prompted me to finally read Archwizards, and perhaps the Dracorage novels afterward.
Bear in-mind I tend to read most FR novels to extract the lore, not so much for the story, and several of you have pointed to events that I have huge holes in my FR knowledge about (like what happened when the Shades returned).
As for Lady Putrescent, I will still avoid that like the plague. My mind is still reeling over WotSQ (in its absurdity, discontinuity {from novel to novel}, and over-all uselessness).
It ended with Lolth becoming a god.
Wow... how utterly... UN-interesting. (insert snoring smiley here).
I would have to reluctantly agree with Dennis, however, that the characters (however poorly portrayed between authors) were the one savings grace of that series. Too bad they horribly killed-off everyone who was even mildly interesting. ('Horribly' as in BAD plot, not as in how the deaths occurred... which I can't even remember the details of, that's how non-relevant they were).
Poor Lisa Smedman - the only author I have 'sworn-off for life'. She was handed a dufflebag full of doo-doo and told to turn it into a story. She should sue them for sabotaging her career (unfortunately, acceptance of contract negates her ability to do so).
When you are handed a VERY bad set of story-elements, you should just walk-away. I know of at least one Realms author who did precisely that. Money isn't everything. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Nov 2010 21:57:58 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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froglegg
Learned Scribe
317 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 23:00:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Spellplague.
+1
John |
Long live Alias and Dragonbait! Kate Novak and Jeff Grubb the Realms need you more then ever!
On my word as a sage nothing within these pages is false, but not all of it may prove to be true. - Elminster of Shadowdale
The Old Grey Box gets better with age! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 23:13:48
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quote:
Alystra Illianniis:
"It ended with Lolth becoming a god."
... shouldn't that read "more powerful god"?
Remember that in the earliest rules editions Lolth (like Orcus, Mephisto, and Asmodeus) was just another super fiend. In Lolth's case a tremendously powerful - a scary, insanely powerful - demon lord who ruled some few layers of the Abyss and the hearts of many millions of hot Drow priestesses across countless worlds. A goddess in all but name, but still not a goddess. When you looked for Lolth you pulled out your Monster Manual instead of your Deities and Demigods.
Later game editions established a sensible system of divine ranking and bumped these worthies up to their appropriate divine stations. (And unfortunately chose to retcon things with some Orwellian handwaving of past lore to pretend this is the way things "always" were and thus cause an endless Blood War between the devilish grognards and the fiendish youth which still echoes today across the infinite planes.)
I think this is tacitly acknowledged and implied in the writing style of this novel ... which cleverly manages to get Lolth's promotion done while also remaining carefully ambivalent. "Lolth became a goddess" and "Lolth became a more powerful goddess" are both valid interpretations. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 10 Nov 2010 23:30:24 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 23:31:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If nothing else, this thread has prompted me to finally read Archwizards, and perhaps the Dracorage novels afterward.
I think you should. Who knows, you might find some 'saving grace' in them.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
When you are handed a VERY bad set of story-elements, you should just walk-away. I know of at least one Realms author who did precisely that. Money isn't everything.
Interesting. That author's pretty dauntless. Care to reveal who that is? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2010 : 23:31:23
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Folks, I've received a certain number of PM-complaints about the tone and overall unnecessary negativity in this scroll. Thus, I'm temporarily sealing it, pending later review.
*Casts Seal Scroll* |
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The Most Horri--- RSE
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