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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 18:43:34
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So in my 4e FR game, the heroes have stumbled upon one of the famous Nether Scrolls. And here I am skulking about for lore I might not have regarding the scrolls--any 4e-specific lore, as well as references in earlier lore.
Help me out, scribes?
Also, if there isn't a firm 4e ruling on what the scrolls do in this mechanical toolset, go ahead and speculate (though mark it as such, so folks don't take it as established canon).
Cheers
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Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 19:12:58
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| Err, Mr. de Bie? I know some old sources: Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves for one, LEoF if my memory serves me right for two. But no 4e, sorry. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 21:18:35
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| they don't work in 4e |
z455t |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 21:31:01
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I believe I have access to both LEoF and Cormanthyr. I'll scour those.
There might not be any 4e ruling on the Nether Scrolls as yet. I don't know of any myself, but I thought I'd consult other minds who might be more up on the specifics.
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
they don't work in 4e
Is this the official word, or your personal opinion?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Oct 2010 : 21:34:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
Err, Mr. de Bie?
Also please, it's Erik.
Mr. de Bie refers to a series of my male paternal ancestors. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 00:18:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
So in my 4e FR game, the heroes have stumbled upon one of the famous Nether Scrolls. And here I am skulking about for lore I might not have regarding the scrolls--any 4e-specific lore, as well as references in earlier lore.
Help me out, scribes?
Also, if there isn't a firm 4e ruling on what the scrolls do in this mechanical toolset, go ahead and speculate (though mark it as such, so folks don't take it as established canon).
Cheers
If you're talking 4E, I don't see any reason why they wouldn't work. But they might work quite differently. In 3E, they could result in gaining a level if you studied one for a week.
Technically, do we know how magic actually worked during the time of the Terraseer while he was alive (pre-Netheril)? I'm not sure we do, for sure. Perhaps magic back then didn't have a "Weave" as people knew it in 3E times, and having a Nether Scroll today would be an easier route to learning.
One could even say that someone used the Nether Scrolls right after the Spellplague to re-introduce magic to the Realms and we just don't know about it. Maybe Mystra made sure that several Nether Scrolls made their way into the hands of various enclaves of mages so that they could relearn magic.
Of course, you might want to impose limits on how powerful these artifacts are, if they find their way into the hands of PCs. The Weave, one might say, perhaps bolstered the power inherent to them. They made magic learning easy and rapid. But now, they are perhaps more like guides where you wouldn't need a master-apprentice relationship to learn arcane magic. They might reveal how magic really works without any Weave, which is why the Netherese found them so valuable and why they were so much an inherent part of their magical culture.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 00:21:12
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I don't believe that there is any ruling for 4ed, Erik. You might
want to take a page from Ed in 1ed and put a couple of uncommon spells
(book of evil 1st or 2nd ed) or give the 4ed equivalent of a new feat (creation of items) or a competence bonus to
spellcasting. Just my 2 cents worth. |
Edited by - althen artren on 26 Oct 2010 00:23:40 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 13:39:49
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| Maybe grant access to an Arcane At-Will power to be used daily? (speculation)....something about making someone who uses a different power source being able to tap into an Arcane Power source somehow perhaps (i'd also like to hear any spins on this....I also plan on introducing one of or a few of the Nether Scrolls in my 4E campaign). |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 13:44:54
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| Another idea I just got, maybe something akin to having a spellscar, but a bigger bonus than what you get with that (other than the powers), like maybe granting a permanent +1 or +2 bonus on attack rolls made with Arcane Powers???? (again speculation) |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 14:51:05
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Sort of my original concept (along the lines of what Alisttair was saying) was that the person who studies the scrolls gets a permanent +2 to Arcana checks and the Arcane Initiate multiclass wizard feat for free. Eh?
(Which, for those not schooled in 4e parlance, is basically giving the character a multiclass level of wizard.)
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 26 Oct 2010 14:52:05 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 15:44:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Sort of my original concept (along the lines of what Alisttair was saying) was that the person who studies the scrolls gets a permanent +2 to Arcana checks and the Arcane Initiate multiclass wizard feat for free. Eh?
(Which, for those not schooled in 4e parlance, is basically giving the character a multiclass level of wizard.)
Cheers
Sounds better. So how about, if you're not currently an Arcane Power character, you get the Arcane Initiate feat for free as well as training in the Arcana skill (if not already trained)...unless you think that is overpowered (then again, it is a Nether Scroll  . And in the case of those who are already Arcane classes with training in Arcana skill, then a +2 on Arcana and a bonus on Arcane powers?? |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Kno
Senior Scribe
452 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 15:46:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I believe I have access to both LEoF and Cormanthyr. I'll scour those.
There might not be any 4e ruling on the Nether Scrolls as yet. I don't know of any myself, but I thought I'd consult other minds who might be more up on the specifics.
quote:
Originally posted by Kno
they don't work in 4e
Is this the official word, or your personal opinion?
Cheers
official word is that the Weave is destroyed, it would require a quest to ''rewire'' and reconfigure the scrolls |
z455t |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 16:08:42
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Is it said somewhere that the Nether scrolls need or use the weave?
@Erik
In my opinion the scrolls shouldn't provide a one-time-bonus. The more time someone spends studying them the more power he should get. I'm not fit in 4e rules so I can't give much suggestions but maybe you should let your players study them 2 or 3 times giving them some benefits each time and than come up with something why they loose the scrolls again? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 17:13:33
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Agreed. Everything we know about the Nether Scrolls points to them providing 'deep insights' into the workings of magic, NOT actual spells (although a few may be included in a scroll as examples for the work). In other words, each is a thesis on a specific school or path of magical knowledge.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Sort of my original concept (along the lines of what Alisttair was saying) was that the person who studies the scrolls gets a permanent +2 to Arcana checks and the Arcane Initiate multiclass wizard feat for free. Eh?
(Which, for those not schooled in 4e parlance, is basically giving the character a multiclass level of wizard.)
Something like this would work. The benefit should be epic (considering the nature of the artifacts), and permanent. It should also pertain directly to the nature of the specific scroll (see above).
Ergo, if the Nether scroll covers the makings of Golems (and considering the existence of the Thaluds there should be one), Then the benefit should directly reflect that (although without being familiar with the 4e rules I would have no idea how to accomplish that... Rituals?)
On this same tangent, I was just thinking that a scroll covering 'awakened' creatures and/or intelligent artifacts (which seems to be related magic IMHO), the scroll itself could have developed an awareness.
How cool would THAT be? 
Although to tell you the truth, I think that is an area of study to have been more-likely followed by the Imaskari, in which case you could create a Intelligent Imaskarcana.
Just some ideas I'm tossing around for anyone looking to do something a bit different with old lore; nothing canon. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 26 Oct 2010 17:15:12 |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2010 : 17:18:25
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Going with the step by step power gaining, tying it in to what I said, then initial research could grand training in Arcana, and continuing could grant the Arcane Initiate Feat, and subsequently perhaps access to Arcane Powers, then bonuses, etc...
From what Markus said, golem making rituals could be included in some of the scrolls, and probably casting the ritual from the Nether Scroll would have a lower DC and/or consume less reagents than normal. Some ideas anyways... |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2010 : 03:48:42
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after giving it thought.
you could also use them to learn to craft items as if they were the next lvl up...
or use less xp/golf to make them. |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2010 : 04:09:52
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Heh. I hadn't seen this scroll earlier.
Anyways friend Erik, if you've a copy of the original REF5 Lords of Darkness tome, you may find the paragraphs-long detailing of the Nether Scrolls on pg. 39 to be of some use as well. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2010 : 12:55:22
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Heh. I hadn't seen this scroll earlier.
Anyways friend Erik, if you've a copy of the original REF5 Lords of Darkness tome, you may find the paragraphs-long detailing of the Nether Scrolls on pg. 39 to be of some use as well.
Also the novel, The Nether Scroll, gives a brief idea on what type of knowledge can be acquired. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Edited by - Bakra on 27 Oct 2010 12:58:06 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2010 : 16:36:34
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Thanks guys! You're inspiring some good ideas.
I want them the scrolls to be relevant in my game, but I also want to restrict how much benefit the PCs can derive. Going the Arcane Initiate route seems easiest--it's self-limiting and provides more of an "option" than a direct benefit (i.e., you wouldn't take this feat unless you were interested in multiclassing as a wizard), and its feat tree mostly just swaps out your powers, rather than adding new ones. (Though there are numerous feats that prereq wizard that would be well worth taking.)
Also, once you have this feat, you can't multiclass as something else as well (unless you're a bard, and I don't have any bards in my party).
On a mechanical note, the Arcane Initiate feat *does* grant training in Arcana, so giving the characters that feat takes care of that business. I think the +2 on Arcana checks should be universal as well.
The one scroll the PCs have found isn't currently in their possession, either. They left it at New Olamn to be studied (as they had no idea what it was), and when they came back the librarians were both excited to have it and upset that dark, shadowy powers were applying pressure to the university to turn the scroll over.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Heh. I hadn't seen this scroll earlier.
Anyways friend Erik, if you've a copy of the original REF5 Lords of Darkness tome, you may find the paragraphs-long detailing of the Nether Scrolls on pg. 39 to be of some use as well.
Hmm, don't have that one . . . guess I'll have to visit my old friend Brian James and raid his shelf one of these afternoons.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2010 : 19:10:43
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I've always seen the Nether Scrolls as a way to do things that aren't normally allowed by a strict interpretation of the game rules. Remember, the scrolls reveal more the more you learn, and they show different things to different people. The gnome thief who stole the set for Myth Drannor learned great feats of illusion from briefly studying them, but the wizard who recovered one milennia later was able to permanently memorize one of his existing spells (IIRC; it's been years since I read the Nether Scroll novel).
None of which works very well from a game balance perspective, of course, which was why the darn things were explicitly lost before the default setting time of the Netheril box set.
That said, if I ever had them show up in my game, I'd have them have two purposes. The first is to provide justification for any sort of multiclassing or odd arcane class. Give an unkitted wizard a kit in 2e, or entry into an obscure or normally-barred PrC in 3e. That sort of thing.
To work out the ever-increasing study thing, I'd probably create a set of bonuses, unique to each person reading them, and then set ever-increasing die rolls to make them. In 2e they'd probably be modified by your level (so, got to roll 25, then 30, or 35, on a d20 with your wizard level as a bonus), and impose a time limit between when you can study them next (either in in-game months, or in character levels). In 3e you could either keep the level check, or substitute Knowledge Arcana.
I think this does a nice job of allowing each Nether Scroll to be special, to keep your players guessing (hey! That mage got XYZ when he studied them and I didn't! What gives?), and provides the opportunity for significant boosts in power. With the addendum that from the moment they get the Scroll I'm going to be doing everything in my power to take it away, of course. That way, if they manage to hang onto it long enough to discover its deeper mysteries, they've earned it. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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The Last Guardian
Acolyte
10 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2010 : 20:18:01
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quote:
Ergo, if the Nether scroll covers the makings of Golems (and considering the existence of the Thaluds there should be one), Then the benefit should directly reflect that (although without being familiar with the 4e rules I would have no idea how to accomplish that... Rituals?)
On this same tangent, I was just thinking that a scroll covering 'awakened' creatures and/or intelligent artifacts (which seems to be related magic IMHO), the scroll itself could have developed an awareness.
How cool would THAT be?
Thats funny you should mention that. In my current 3.5 campaign I have an undiscovered enclave off the map in the north. The arcanist at the time had the golem crafting nether scroll locked away in his vault with all his powerful staves, wands, etc. during the fall. Fastforward to 1372 when the PCs find and open the vault they will encounter a huge sentient being whose body is made up of all the magic items in the vault at the time of the fall with the Nether scroll at its center. I got the idea from one of the monsters in one of the MM that was made up of old magic items, just can't remember the name of it. The enclave is full of warforged as well as the arcanist was building his own army. Its how I introduced them to my campaign.
@Erik. I was thinking that the nether scroll in a 4th ed setting could do a number of things for the PC. So long as the PC has access to 2 daily or 2 encounter powers, make it so that one of those powers could be used twice, taking the place of the 2nd power. Or even giving one power a chance at recharging when bloodied. Just some quick thoughts.. |
Edited by - The Last Guardian on 27 Oct 2010 20:19:39 |
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Baragon Geddarm
Acolyte
13 Posts |
Posted - 03 Nov 2010 : 16:43:04
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Hmmm, I could think of several different possibilities for how the Nether Scrolls might work.
1. I like your idea Erik. A nice permenant bonus and feat like that would work well.
2. Perhaps the reader, if already a spellcaster, could learn/retrain a new power gleaned from the lessons taught by the scrolls.
3. Mayhaps even access to a new Paragon/Epic path for spellcasters.
Just a few thoughts that popped into my head browsing this thread. Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are a few Nether scrolls out there correct? It's possible these effects could all be associated with reading multiple scrolls if found.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Nov 2010 : 19:09:52
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If anything, I would give some sort of 'one-time' bonus (like a feat) for each scroll read, and then assign a secondary (more powerful) Feat for a certain number read by a single person, so that the benefits would increase with the more 'pieces' of the puzzle one was to discern.
I'd probaly go with "for every thirteen scrolls read" they'd get the more powerful feat (arbitrarilly using 13 because of its connotations). Ergo you could only get this secondary benefit three times (having read 39 scrolls). Note, that the reader will have also gotten 39 other feats along the way, making them an incredibly powerful character indeed. The final benefit - one that should be epic - would only be given to someone who has read all 50.
Something along the lines of 'the secrets of godhood', or some-such (so it would shoe-horn into known lore).
Also throw in a 1% chance (cumulative) for each scroll read, minus the character's Int. ability modifier, for going insane (there HAS TO be a drawback). this should be rolled for each time a scroll is read, so reading more becomes all the more dangerous (which is why karsus was one of the very few to have done this). Also assume the benefit (unlike the 'curse' some have) would only be acquired after reading the scroll completely, and make sure that takes PLENTY of time (they need to be studied).
Once again you can throw a variable into this - say something like 64 weeks per scroll, minus the readers Wisdom score.
Just some more ideas I'm tossing out - the Nether Scrolls should be epically powerful, but there should be a price for reading them. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Nov 2010 19:11:21 |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 15:08:15
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What about:
+2 to arcana checks?
Powers which grant a Reroll to bad arcana checks?
+1 to int?
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orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 20 Nov 2010 : 16:40:56
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| You may find this Candlekeep scroll, titled Nether Scrolls, of some use if looking for older lore. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 20 Nov 2010 16:50:30 |
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4e Nether Scrolls
