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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Nov 2007 : 19:25:20
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What are the interactions between Spellfire and Shadow Weave magic?
Can Shadow Weave magical spells ahve their power seized by a Weave User who can "steal" magic? What about vice versa?
The assistance of the learned is sought by me and my players on this topic, and I thank in advance those who shall respond.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2007 : 19:30:20
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| Also, would little planar rifts be opened if Shadow Weave magic collided with Spellfire? That is what happens with it collides with Silverfire isn't it? |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2007 : 20:24:25
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Well, as Ed said back in Nov 25th, 2004:
kuje31, Ed wanted me to reiterate that he's not the right person to ask about official 3.5e games rules questions (he'd refer this one to Rich Baker), but if this arose in a situation where he was DM, Ed would not allow access to both Shadow Weave and Weave-based effects (including spellfire). In his words, that's like the 'greedy-greedy' space soldier who wants to fire a matter-ray and an anti-matter ray at the same time. Nuh-uh.
Then he clarified on Feb 25th, 2006
Ed replies:
Uh-oh. Kuje, I'm afraid I MAY to have to pull the old rug out from under you here. Those posters are correct in asserting "that isn't what I meant." I was responding specifically to a situation where someone wanted to wield/hurl Shadow Weave-based magics AND wield spellfire (or any Weave-based spells) at the same time. My answer to that is NO, for game balance reasons. Like the kid at GenCon 14 who got angry when someone disallowed his homebrew character in the Open tournament that was a good priest, necromancer, wizard, and assassin all-in-one, and the kid wanted to heal himself, blast foes with a flame barrier, blast the same foes with negative energy, blast the same foes with a Meteor Swarm, AND sneak attack one of them from behind for triple damage, all in the same round, claiming "there isn't anything specific in the rules that prohibits me from doing that." He was right, there wasn't, BUT... :}
So I say again: one character can't both wield spellfire and cast Shadow Weave spells; the two will war with each other in the character's body and disintegrate him or her (whereas if spellfire and a Shadow Weave spell both struck the same character as a target, both would take effect; just what effect would depend on what the spell's usual effect was - - in other words, can it act before the spellfire "drinks" it?).
However, spellfire trumps all magic. A spellfire wielder CAN absorb Shadow Weave-based magics. Note that the spellfire just destroys the magic on contact, "sucking in" the spell or spell effect. Unlike a Weave-based magic, the absorbed energy is just "gone." It doesn't fuel or aid the spellfire user in any way (aside from obliberating or preventing whatever effects the Shadow Weave-based magic would ordinarily have had). Spellfire simply causes Shadow-Weave magic to cease to exist, upon contact. So if the posters meant, "Can a spellfire channeler (or other spellfire-wielding character) absorb Shadow Weave magic to power their spellfire?" the answer is no, and you're right. But a spellfire channeler (or other spellfire-wielding character) CAN absorb Shadow Weave, without harm to themselves [without being themselves disintegrated], automatically upon contact between spellfire and the Shadow Weave magic, and such absorption is silent, instant oblivion for the magic.
So saith Ed, creator of spellfire (oh, yes, and the Realms, too).
love to all,
THO |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 05 Nov 2007 20:27:16 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2007 : 21:07:52
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| Thanks Kuje! |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 05 Nov 2007 : 21:26:22
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| Wow...so essentially if someone that uses spellfire goes up against someone that uses the Shadow Weave, the shadow guy is screwed with no hope! They can't even hope to over-load the spellfire wielder! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2007 : 01:16:02
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quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
Wow...so essentially if someone that uses spellfire goes up against someone that uses the Shadow Weave, the shadow guy is screwed with no hope! They can't even hope to over-load the spellfire wielder!
I don't care how you call it, but let those spellfire freaks try to 'absorb' a falling wall of iron... I'm pretty sure they might be in for a surprise! 
PS: I would argue that spells that are NOT subject to spell resistance cannot get snuffed in such a way... same for instant transmutations that do not affect a spellfire user directly (i.e. control weather, here's a tornado centered on YOU! the target is not the spellfire wielder, but the environment around him; same for transmute rock to mud; or heat metal on a spellfire user's armor, etc.) |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2007 : 01:20:13
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| So if I read Ed's ruling above, Spellfire and Shadow Weave cannot cohabit within a caster's body. However, Ed says nothing of regular weave spells and shadow weave spells. Could a caster with the Shadow Weave feat elect NOT to say, cast a spell with the Shadow Weave feat? (i.e. can the Shadow Weave feat be turned on and off?) |
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Caedwyr
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2007 : 15:37:45
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quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
Wow...so essentially if someone that uses spellfire goes up against someone that uses the Shadow Weave, the shadow guy is screwed with no hope! They can't even hope to over-load the spellfire wielder!
Simple enough, make the Shadow Weave user not directly target the spellfire user and hurt them with secondary effects (use the shadow weave to drop the ceiling on them, blow a hole out under their feet, drop a tree on them, pelt them with a dust storm, pick up a big rock and drop it on their head.) |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2007 : 17:06:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Caedwyr
quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
Wow...so essentially if someone that uses spellfire goes up against someone that uses the Shadow Weave, the shadow guy is screwed with no hope! They can't even hope to over-load the spellfire wielder!
Simple enough, make the Shadow Weave user not directly target the spellfire user and hurt them with secondary effects (use the shadow weave to drop the ceiling on them, blow a hole out under their feet, drop a tree on them, pelt them with a dust storm, pick up a big rock and drop it on their head.)
Dropping a ceiling on someone, or blowing a hole in their standing place would mean using disintegration effects or other spells...the most efficient method for combating someone is direct damage; an option not open to a Shadow-Weave user against a spellfire wielder. Nor are spell manifested options such as Evard's Tentacles and etc. available. If a SWUser KNEW they were going to face a spellfire wielder, then they could prepare...but no wizard goes thru his day thinking he is going to run into a spellfire user.
I stand by my assertion that a SWUser is nailing his own coffin if he has to fight a spellfire user without a days notice! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2007 : 17:21:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
So if I read Ed's ruling above, Spellfire and Shadow Weave cannot cohabit within a caster's body. However, Ed says nothing of regular weave spells and shadow weave spells. Could a caster with the Shadow Weave feat elect NOT to say, cast a spell with the Shadow Weave feat? (i.e. can the Shadow Weave feat be turned on and off?)
Nope, it is stated in Magic of Faerun (IIRC) that once you make the choice to use the Shadow Weave, you cannot go back and use the Weave. It is an "On-Only" switch. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Caedwyr
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2007 : 17:21:56
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| I imagine something like a fireball could do decent property damage that could cause a spellfire weilder problems. Sure, they could soak up a direct hit, but light the building on fire and the fire is no longer magical and can harm them as any other normal fire could. A telekinesis spell alone could be used to do countless thing that a spellfire user wouldn't have any recourse against. Yes, the SW user would be at somewhat of a disadvantage, but not helpless by any means. Also, remember that the spellfire user needs to have an existing resevoir of power to fuel their abilities as the SW won't charge them up. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2007 : 18:02:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Caedwyr
quote:
Originally posted by dalor_darden
Wow...so essentially if someone that uses spellfire goes up against someone that uses the Shadow Weave, the shadow guy is screwed with no hope! They can't even hope to over-load the spellfire wielder!
Simple enough, make the Shadow Weave user not directly target the spellfire user and hurt them with secondary effects (use the shadow weave to drop the ceiling on them, blow a hole out under their feet, drop a tree on them, pelt them with a dust storm, pick up a big rock and drop it on their head.)
Indeed. Many people seem to have this idea that immunity to direct magical effects provides a kind of invulnerability. It doesn't. It just means you have to be a bit creative with indirect attacks.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Caedwyr
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2007 : 22:33:40
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Grease + a minor cantrip to start a fire can have some pretty horrific effects in enclosed dungeon hallways, especially if the grease/oil flows downhill towards the enemies.
Gust of air is a great way to turn a small fire into a big one.
I find being creative with spells and their secondary effects is a great way to get more out of less. A lot of the time I find myself targetting secondary objects instead of the primary target because I know its going to have more effect. (eg, a Drow with nice high magic resistance can still be burned. Shoot the fireball to light his surroundings on fire rather than trying to hit him directly and have the MR soak up most of the damage.) |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2007 : 19:42:27
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Many thanks for the answer!
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2007 : 11:54:36
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| If i don't recall wrongly, fire of any types can never harm the spellfire wielder. Or at least that was what I read in the spellfire trilogy |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2010 : 16:42:23
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Correct me if I'm wrong (I know my 123e quite well, but I'm not as sagely about the finer 3.5/4e lore) ...
Isn't there already a Shadowfire counterpart for Spellfire? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2010 : 16:54:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Correct me if I'm wrong (I know my 123e quite well, but I'm not as sagely about the finer 3.5/4e lore) ...
Isn't there already a Shadowfire counterpart for Spellfire?
Nope.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7968 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2010 : 17:20:30
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| "Nope" seems like a strange answer (though I'm not doubting you, Wooly), given the presence of Spellfire, Silverfire, Hellfire ... Shadowfire, Darkfire, Angelfire just seem like obvious Shadow Weave reflections to me. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2010 : 21:02:11
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There is a darkfire.
IIRC, its in either PftM or PotF (both 2e).
There's also a bluefire, IIRC (not entirely 100% sure about that one, though). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Nov 2010 21:04:11 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 01:05:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
"Nope" seems like a strange answer (though I'm not doubting you, Wooly), given the presence of Spellfire, Silverfire, Hellfire ... Shadowfire, Darkfire, Angelfire just seem like obvious Shadow Weave reflections to me.
Ed has said that there is no Shadow Weave version of Spellfire, just renderings that might "look" like Spellfire... but it is not Spellfire.
From Ed:-
"Shar CAN grant her followers corrupted versions of the same powers Mystra gives, but darkfire and the like are mere shadows of Mystra’s boons, not equivalents. So, there’s no “dark” version of spellfire or the silver fire, despite the claims of Shar or her clergy to the contrary, just inferior unleashings." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2010 : 01:54:42
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| What's the use of having Darkfire when potent SW-based spells can already counter silverfire?! |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Simbul
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2010 : 23:58:37
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| Whats the use of the Shadow Weave itself when a 5th level wizard can rip a hole in it? |
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Spellfire and the Shadow Weave
