| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
|
|
Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 21:57:49
|
Variety is good, (healthy) competition is good. Hopefully other more obscure goodies will get a better look in if DnD isn't hogging so much of the stage (at least where shelf and advertising space is concerned).
I wonder how much of DnD's apparent drop in sales is due to people relying largely-to-exclusively on DDI?
EDIT: ok, maybe not drop in sales, but decrease in dominance, or whatever.
I speak as an avid fan of 4e, incidentally... |
Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!
Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl
2e Realms book PDFs; grab em! - http://poleandrope.blogspot.com/2010/07/working-around-purge.html |
Edited by - Cleric Generic on 07 Oct 2010 21:59:11 |
 |
|
|
Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 22:54:16
|
| I hope this information means that the pie is expanding and not just that the two companies are tied for shares of a static population. |
|
|
|
Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 23:09:32
|
Wow, with data based on interviews with retailers, distributors, and manufacturers.
Is Hasbro/WotC giving interviews?
Paizo guy: "Oh yeah. We sold, uhm, as much as Hasbro/WotC. We have, a uhm... mind-mole. That, uh, reads the minds of Hasbro/WotC employees. And tells us things... Alot."
 |
The Silver Fire's Blade: A Novella in Nine Parts, Available Soon, in the Adventuring Forum!
|
|
|
|
Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2010 : 23:41:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
I hope this information means that the pie is expanding and not just that the two companies are tied for shares of a static population.
Indeed. I see there that the WH40K role-playing books are fairly high on the list, so hopefully they've brought in a a few war-gamers (they've damn-sure got the disposable income  ). I also imagine more people are aware of RPGs now than before widespread internet access.
Being a geek is also SLIGHTLY less likely to prevent you from getting laid now than in the past as well, which I imagine makes the hobby a bit more accessible...  |
Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!
Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl
2e Realms book PDFs; grab em! - http://poleandrope.blogspot.com/2010/07/working-around-purge.html |
|
|
|
Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 00:23:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Wow, with data based on interviews with retailers, distributors, and manufacturers.
Is Hasbro/WotC giving interviews?
Paizo guy: "Oh yeah. We sold, uhm, as much as Hasbro/WotC. We have, a uhm... mind-mole. That, uh, reads the minds of Hasbro/WotC employees. And tells us things... Alot."
Vic Wertz
A truly amazing achievement. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
Edited by - Ayunken-vanzan on 08 Oct 2010 00:25:02 |
|
|
|
Tyrant
Senior Scribe
USA
586 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 00:53:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Wow, with data based on interviews with retailers, distributors, and manufacturers.
Is Hasbro/WotC giving interviews?
Paizo guy: "Oh yeah. We sold, uhm, as much as Hasbro/WotC. We have, a uhm... mind-mole. That, uh, reads the minds of Hasbro/WotC employees. And tells us things... Alot."
Hopefully this won't derail things. I haven't read the article yet mainly because I have no real interest in Pathfinder (though competition is in general a good thing and hopefully it will lead to good things). I have noticed in the past that a number of "news" items and the stated reasons for certain WotC decisions seem to cite "interviews with retailers, etc" as a source of info. I have wondered for a while, who are they asking and why are they listening? Take one of the reasons for the Spellplague (so I hear), getting rid of the ultra powerful NPCs. This was because "people" were complaining. Who? Why should they have been listened to in the first place? Likewise, a number of decisions with the miniatures game (mainly rules clarifications on extreme, 1 in a million cases that almost no one ever encounters when there were well known, and very likely to occur, situations that needed to be addressed) seemed to fall back on "well, retailers and players are saying this", where "this" is something that is not a commonly voiced concern by anyone with any kind of web presence or anyone they know (leading me to wonder where these people are hiding). I have this suspicion that they are listening to a very limited circle of people, or it's a squeeky wheel gets the grease scenario where every "ditch Elminster" voice is counted as equal to a hundred "things are good" voices. And then they wonder why everyone isn't jumping for joy when they base decisions on a very vocal minority who may actually not even be buying their products (the "I would play but...." argument). It just seemed out of place for a company to base pretty big decisions on consulting what have to either be a very small number of people or people who have no interest in making it known their voice was part of the process. It seems to me if you wanted that kind of information you would openly ask the player base. If you want to know what's selling, check your sales figures.
Sorry if that's a massive side track but it always bothered me when it was brought up with the miniatures game and now I see it might be a more common practice than I thought.
As for the topic, hopefully it will lead to better things from WotC or hopefully the knowledge that this moment was all to possible has already started the wheels turning to make better things.
Edit to add: Hopefully no one will take that Spellplague example and run with it. I have no interest in helping to turn yet another thread into a pro/anti 4th ed thread. I have no problem with the 4th ed. Realms. I read the novels (and play the video and miniature games, but not the RPG) and I have had no complaints about any 4th ed. novels. |
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
-The Sith Code
Teenage Sith zombies, Tulkh thought-how in the moons of Bogden had it all started? Every so often, the universe must just get bored and decide to really cut loose. -Star Wars: Red Harvest |
Edited by - Tyrant on 08 Oct 2010 04:24:49 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 04:14:18
|
I'd love to be at WotC HQ to see the reaction to this news!
Regardless of your feelings for 4E (and my own are well-known!), it's certainly very interesting to see a polished version of the old ruleset performing just as well as the new ruleset.
My own opinion -- possibly influenced by my feelings about 4E -- is that this news shows that the gaming market might not be as accepting of 4E as WotC would have hoped. It appears that regardless of what their marketing people thought, the market was not ready for a new edition of D&D -- or at least, not this new edition. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 Oct 2010 04:14:47 |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 04:43:04
|
| I find it extremely interesting because of the products offered in Q3 (July-Sept) by both parties. WotC released 12 products, including the Dark Sun products, the Essentials product, the Ravenloft board game and books like the Demonomicon and Psionic Power. Paize released 7: the Advanced Player's Guide, three Adventure Paths, Orcs of Golarion, the Kingmaker Poster Map Folio and the module Curse of the Riven Sky (by Monte Cook). Not a good sign when you're putting out more product and a competitor is equivalent in sales. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 05:45:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I find it extremely interesting because of the products offered in Q3 (July-Sept) by both parties. WotC released 12 products, including the Dark Sun products, the Essentials product, the Ravenloft board game and books like the Demonomicon and Psionic Power. Paize released 7: the Advanced Player's Guide, three Adventure Paths, Orcs of Golarion, the Kingmaker Poster Map Folio and the module Curse of the Riven Sky (by Monte Cook). Not a good sign when you're putting out more product and a competitor is equivalent in sales.
It's less of a good sign when that competitor is smaller, newer, doesn't have the brand recognition you have from decades of being in business, and is making a go of something you discarded! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 06:30:26
|
Lisa Stevens in both posts about the accuracy of the data gathered.
Deinol posted this comparisson of the last quartals. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
Edited by - Ayunken-vanzan on 08 Oct 2010 06:36:38 |
|
|
|
Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 07:06:03
|
Quick question:
Using the "OSRIC" system as an example...would it be possible to print 1st Edition Material under the 3e License?
Whole campaign world, supplements and all? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
|
|
|
Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
738 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 09:03:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Paizo guy: "Oh yeah. We sold, uhm, as much as Hasbro/WotC. We have, a uhm... mind-mole. That, uh, reads the minds of Hasbro/WotC employees. And tells us things... Alot."
For a second there I thought you were channeling Chris Perkins from some of the 4E launch interviews... "Oh yeah. We're like super excited, uhm, about The New Edition. We have, a uhm... cool stuff. That, uh, we know the fans will love. And we listened to them... Alot." |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
|
|
|
|
Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 12:23:11
|
| Well, I don't purchase much in the way of D&D books cause DDI is cheaper and I get most of what I need from that. Also, I purchase much less since FR sourcebooks aren't a regular print product anymore (good for my budget anyways)....so there is a loss of money coming from people like me in this regard. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
|
|
|
Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
|
|
Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 13:02:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I find it extremely interesting because of the products offered in Q3 (July-Sept) by both parties. WotC released 12 products, including the Dark Sun products, the Essentials product, the Ravenloft board game and books like the Demonomicon and Psionic Power. Paize released 7: the Advanced Player's Guide, three Adventure Paths, Orcs of Golarion, the Kingmaker Poster Map Folio and the module Curse of the Riven Sky (by Monte Cook). Not a good sign when you're putting out more product and a competitor is equivalent in sales.
I thought 3rd Quarter earnings ended in August? Doesn't really change anything. The overall good news is hobby games sales are up!
And video games sales are down. 
|
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
|
|
|
|
Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 13:12:41
|
Oh, I wouldn't worry about computer games just yet. The pure table-top gamer population would probably have to grow by a factor of ten before it stood a chance of putting a measurable dent in pooter game sales, and computer gamers could probably do with a bit of a price war, judging from some of the price tags I've seen...
But yes... Printers! Give us more games! Gamers! Go forth and make more gamers! |
Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!
Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl
2e Realms book PDFs; grab em! - http://poleandrope.blogspot.com/2010/07/working-around-purge.html |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 14:13:31
|
I do notice some people are "waiting" for Essentials to take off and boost their sales. However, and this is just from what I've seen personally, The Source (FLGS in Minneapolis) had 10+ boxes on their shelf. Normally stuff goes pretty quick up there, and I don't know if there's more because of high or low demand (didn't get a chance to ask the shop steward).
Either way, I beginning to think WotC/Hasbro is falling into a similar trap that laid TSR low: Dilution of the Brand. Originally they said that they'd only have 1 setting a year, but this year saw the release of Dark Sun, the Ravenloft board game and (soon) the Gamma World game. Add in another FR book and they are once again falling back to what happened before. Sure, they aren't all RPGs, in the strictest sense, but they are all branded as Dungeons & Dragons. Now, with Essentials, you're seeing people not buy it because they feel it's an edition change, some people buy it that have not bought 4th Edition before and people that folded it into their game. The second group will be the gamble for the company. Can they convince them that after they buy Essentials, they should "graduate" and buy the other books? Will future settings be released as strictly 4th Edition or as Essentials? <shrug>
Pathfinder's succeeding, so far, because their are staying (relatively) focused. The APG was the first book to introduce new classes, feats, et al, and people took to it pretty well. Now they are doing Beta playtests for Ultimate Magic. And, even being the fanboi I am of the system, I don't know if I want another series of splat books. But I also know that the future Adventure Paths will start to have rules/classes from these upcoming products in them (makes marketing sense), so as a DM, I may have to purchase them to run the APs without conversion.
Ah, to live in interesting times... Or at least to have an interesting hobby.  |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 14:35:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by Cleric Generic
I wonder how much of DnD's apparent drop in sales is due to people relying largely-to-exclusively on DDI?
Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!
This pretty much sums up my thoughts too. Why would someone pay $29.99 or even $19.99 if you can gain ALL the content with your DDI subscription? Having read multipul threads on the Wiz-bro boards, I can accertain that many people just wait for the DDI updates to gain access to the information in books. I'm a bit different though as I like the hard-back feeling of a good book and I know I can gain easy access to that supplement incase my internet goes down or I have to wait for them to correct some server problem.
And like others have said, competition is good and it keeps costs down.
When I think of the game in general, 4E created a split in the RPG community where some people felt they had to choose sides. One's for Paizo products exclusively and the other stayed with WotC exclusively. I wish I had the money to spend on both products because I like a lot from both sides. But because of monetary restrictions, I'm forced to choose between the two. And I've got plenty of 3.5 supplements to keep me conetent forever. But the very nature of 4E changes, and each addition of their content brings in new and altered mechanics on how to utilize classes and that to me is interesting.
|
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 14:46:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Either way, I beginning to think WotC/Hasbro is falling into a similar trap that laid TSR low: Dilution of the Brand. Originally they said that they'd only have 1 setting a year, but this year saw the release of Dark Sun, the Ravenloft board game and (soon) the Gamma World game. Add in another FR book and they are once again falling back to what happened before. Sure, they aren't all RPGs, in the strictest sense, but they are all branded as Dungeons & Dragons. Now, with Essentials, you're seeing people not buy it because they feel it's an edition change, some people buy it that have not bought 4th Edition before and people that folded it into their game. The second group will be the gamble for the company. Can they convince them that after they buy Essentials, they should "graduate" and buy the other books? Will future settings be released as strictly 4th Edition or as Essentials? <shrug>
True, it's labelled under D&D but as little to do with the RPG. I haven't bought the Ravenloft product nor the Gamma World products mainly becaue I'm not that interested in a board-game and I don't really like the mutant, call of Cthulhu feeling. Though I am interested in how they do guns/fire-arms with the 4E ruleset so I might pick it up for adaptation in my game.
I think I fall into the second category as I've started to purchance the Essentials products, but I still fail to see how people can think this as an edition change. Out of 7 PCs in my current campaign, 3 of us changed to Essential classes and I think the general feeling is that it's just a different change of pace. It relies less on "powers" and more on class features. And the ability to adapt the classes to pre-existing material is a real bonus.
What it comes down to is taste. Some people hate 4E mechanics or their settings and so, naturally, they go with a company that does produce a system of their liking. I just don't see why, if you like both, you can't support them both (at least on some level if not on a monetary one)? |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 15:12:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
<snip>the mutant, call of Cthulhu feeling.<snip>
GAH!! Gamma World's got nothin' on Cthulhu! It's got a LOT more in common with Thundarr the Barbarian.
Or, at least it used to... Not sure what changes may be in the works. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 08 Oct 2010 15:13:23 |
|
|
|
Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 16:02:50
|
I think this post on ENWorld is good summarization:
quote:
My take on this news is that it may mean nothing regarding the sales of D&D, but it definitely shows that Pathfinder is doing very well. Considering how short a time ago it seemed that Paizo was in hot water from the loss of the magazine licenses, it's pretty amazing that they now have one of the best-selling RPGs in the industry.
|
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 18:58:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
GAH!! Gamma World's got nothin' on Cthulhu! It's got a LOT more in common with Thundarr the Barbarian.
Or, at least it used to... Not sure what changes may be in the works.
You would know more than I, having never played either. I did run a Resident Evil campaign using Modern d20 and the Resident Evil package someone downloaded for me that was a Call of Cthulhu supplement (at least I think so). Either way, it was LOADS of fun and sorta spooky since I placed the event in Pittsburgh (our hometown and bedrock of the Zombie pop-culture).
quote:
My take on this news is that it may mean nothing regarding the sales of D&D, but it definitely shows that Pathfinder is doing very well. Considering how short a time ago it seemed that Paizo was in hot water from the loss of the magazine licenses, it's pretty amazing that they now have one of the best-selling RPGs in the industry.
I'm very happy about this too. One thing I've found Paizo does really really well is adventures. WotC's pre-made adventures seem to be lacking alot of creativity and are more for the 13-16 age range where as Paizo's are WAAAAY more darker and are more fun for adults. We ran, though didn't finish, the Chapter 3: Hook Mountain Massare for the adventure path Rise of the Runelords. It was pretty interesting and lots of fun to play. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 20:11:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
Wow, with data based on interviews with retailers, distributors, and manufacturers.
Is Hasbro/WotC giving interviews?
Paizo guy: "Oh yeah. We sold, uhm, as much as Hasbro/WotC. We have, a uhm... mind-mole. That, uh, reads the minds of Hasbro/WotC employees. And tells us things... Alot."
No.
The interview with Mike Mearls clearly demonstrates THIS FACT.
A company does not 'change direction' when its current product line is doing well. It 'changes direction' when bad decisions were made and they need to save the entire line (in this case D&D) from obscurity.
Essentials, by its very existence, clearly demonstrates that some major mistakes were made, like forcing a select group's ideas down everyone's throats, weather the fan-base likes them or not, without any regard to weather the 'new direction' was actually interesting or fun.
You don't need 'hard facts' when the writing is quite obviously on the wall. If the 'grognard' fan-base did not matter, WotC/Hasbro would have shut us down here at CK long ago, just to stop all the anti-4e chatter.
But they can't, because we are all the have left. The rest jumped-ship for Paizo and now the naysayers are the only one around to help save their arses.
And lord have mercy on our souls........ |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 08 Oct 2010 20:12:35 |
|
|
|
Bluenose
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 20:20:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I find it extremely interesting because of the products offered in Q3 (July-Sept) by both parties. WotC released 12 products, including the Dark Sun products, the Essentials product, the Ravenloft board game and books like the Demonomicon and Psionic Power. Paize released 7: the Advanced Player's Guide, three Adventure Paths, Orcs of Golarion, the Kingmaker Poster Map Folio and the module Curse of the Riven Sky (by Monte Cook). Not a good sign when you're putting out more product and a competitor is equivalent in sales.
Essentials products weren't out for most of the period, though. They only started appearing in September. Assuming September is included - does anyone know? It seems a little early if so. APG being Paizo's biggest release of the year probably screws with the figures somewhat, too. |
These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when earth's foundations fled,
Followed their mercenary calling
And took their wages and are dead.
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned, these defended,
And saved the sum of things for pay. |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 20:27:49
|
| I'm honestly not sure what they are interpreting as quarters. I'm thinking that they mean the non-fiscal quarters (Q1 Jan-Mar, Q2 Apr-Jun, Q3 Jul-Sep, Q4 Oct-Dec), but it could be the fiscal quarters (Q1 Oct-Dec, Q2 Jan-Mar, Q3 Apr-Jun, Q4 Jul-Sep) as well. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4430 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 20:48:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
No.
The interview with Mike Mearls clearly demonstrates THIS FACT.
A company does not 'change direction' when its current product line is doing well. It 'changes direction' when bad decisions were made and they need to save the entire line (in this case D&D) from obscurity.
Which brings us back to square 1. What, exactly, could WotC produced that further's the 3.5 line yet doesn't seem like another splat book. I think it's a fair assumption that many gamers buy the supplements for the game material. Not lore, not ecologies of monsters, and only moderately for published adventures. So what were they left with? More classes, Prestige classes, feats, spells that would've put further stress on a system that surely needed revitalized.
Yes, Pathfinder did this by making their own version and yet if WotC did it, it would appear as another money grab. They were pretty much at a no win situation. So they went with another style and another system. As Mike Mearls said, he would've wanted it to go another way than Rob Heinso did it, but what's done is done. Time to move one. The Essentials does a good job of combining old-school play with class features at each character level and Martial classes loosing "Powers" but still retains the base mechanics of 4E.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Essentials, by its very existence, clearly demonstrates that some major mistakes were made, like forcing a select group's ideas down everyone's throats, weather the fan-base likes them or not, without any regard to weather the 'new direction' was actually interesting or fun.
This is great speculation, yet I don't think Essentials proves anything. It's different, yes, but hardly shows that anything prior was a mistake. In fact, I think the large group of LFR players would disagree. I think people who enjoy the current rule-set would disagree as well.
|
|
|
|
Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2010 : 20:52:58
|
 quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Essentials, by its very existence, clearly demonstrates that some major mistakes were made, like forcing a select group's ideas down everyone's throats, weather the fan-base likes them or not, without any regard to weather the 'new direction' was actually interesting or fun.
Even as a set of implications, your description doesn't come anywhere near factually close to describing WotC's approach to 4E.
The Essentials line, in my opinion, does show WotC is trying to recapture some lost fan base (in addition to growing it).
I daresay it's a fact, however, that the release of the Essentials line in no way, shape or form supports your predrawn conclusions about WotC.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If the 'grognard' fan-base did not matter, WotC/Hasbro would have shut us down here at CK long ago, just to stop all the anti-4e chatter.
For that to be true, CK would have had to have a highly influental set of writers that other people, beyond our select little forum community, listened to in droves, and whose ideas were repeated in other forum communities.
CK is awesome, but it's not that awesome.
I have a hard time imagining a company as tight-fisted with its cash as WotC shutting CK down just because a subset of CK's population has made (and continues to make, as your post shows) a sport out of demonizing WotC and turning it into the corporate version of a BBEG.
WotC would in my opinion sooner shut down their own forums, where the activity of making WotC out to be Evil Incarnate is alive and well.
:sends the grumpy grognard a hug:
|
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 08 Oct 2010 20:54:50 |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2010 : 07:13:20
|
Well, my point may have gotten lost amongst my own grognardize, but it's still valid. Essentials is a move in a new direction, and the fact that they are trying to recapture some of that 'old school' feel (like losing martial powers) is a clear admittance (IMHO) that they made a mistake, and are trying to correct it.
And that's fine.
Any guess about how big that mistake was, or how lucrative (or lack thereof) 4e was, is pure speculation - we can't judge the degree of the mistake (as of yet), but quite clearly Essentials is, in fact, an admittance of one. Mike Mearls says as much - he is trying to make things right.
This is why I will support Essentials, even if I'm not crazy about it, just because change is good, and I want them to know that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2010 : 13:12:00
|
| I'm glad for Paizo, they're awesome. |
|
|
|
Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2010 : 19:19:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Well, my point may have gotten lost amongst my own grognardize, but it's still valid. Essentials is a move in a new direction, and the fact that they are trying to recapture some of that 'old school' feel (like losing martial powers) is a clear admittance (IMHO) that they made a mistake, and are trying to correct it.
And that's fine.
Any guess about how big that mistake was, or how lucrative (or lack thereof) 4e was, is pure speculation - we can't judge the degree of the mistake (as of yet), but quite clearly Essentials is, in fact, an admittance of one. Mike Mearls says as much - he is trying to make things right.
This is why I will support Essentials, even if I'm not crazy about it, just because change is good, and I want them to know that.
Further to this, does anybody know if the early Essentials releases fell within Q3 or Q4? If they're included in the latter, It'd be interesting to see how far they went towards correcting the 'mistake' (assuming you are of the opinion there was one). |
Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!
ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!
Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl
2e Realms book PDFs; grab em! - http://poleandrope.blogspot.com/2010/07/working-around-purge.html |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Well... Isn't that Interesting?
