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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 00:33:47
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Wikipedia:
quote:
4th Edition's Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide states that Asmodeus killed the power Azuth and consumed his divine essence. He then proceeded to use this power to push the Abyss to the bottom of the Elemental Chaos, thus ending the Blood War with the victory of the Devils (Law). Some question this, though, saying that Asmodeus didn't win the war, but rather ran from it, since the Demons weren't destroyed or enslaved, just "pushed out of the way". Regardless, this explanation only applies to the Forgotten Realms setting; the default 4th edition books are vague as to the Blood War's status, and as a Forgotten Realms deity, Azuth was not present in these.
If so why haven't there been any repercussions? For example if the Demonsof the Abyss no longer have the Devils to war against and keep them in check, why haven't they spread out to the other planes?
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 00:38:55
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| generally they're too busy kicking the stuffing out of each other and/or recovering from the thrashing bestowed upon them by Asmodeus. Also, though not stated explicitly, it would seem that the demons are spreading out across the cosmos. Basically, it's all been left intentionally vague so as the DM can handle it however they see fit. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 00:42:31
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| That's one of many things that should have logically gotten a bit more explanation, and yet will prolly go forever unanswered. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 01:33:22
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| There are *some* further tidbits in the various 4e planar books which help to understand this. They're worth the read. |
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Edited by - The Sage on 14 Sep 2010 01:34:37 |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 01:33:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's one of many things that should have logically gotten a bit more explanation, and yet will prolly go forever unanswered.
Exactly, a big issue was made that other races, even the Aasimar had a vested interest in the War continuing because they feared being overwhelmed by the denizens of the lower planes. So now you have all these Demons, albeit they are utterly chaotic but I would think some would start threatening the other planes since there is nothing holding them back now. Or is there....?  |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 02:05:53
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The blood war is over in FR 4E.... Devils hate the gods... to become a god to end a war that has gone on longer than the god's existed.... Azuth... a 3rd rate god's power... ended this war???
Well, it's truly a fantasy, and nothing is out of the reach of the power WotC is willing to wield on their setting.
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Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 02:44:46
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Blood War still going on in my game.
Then again, in my world, Asmodeus IS a diety, so I guess the point's moot. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 03:27:23
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The combined powers of Asmodeus and that of Azuth, a minor deity, ended the war? Hmm, doesn't sound plausible... If Asmodeus consumed the essence of either Shar or Cyric, maybe. But then, even that feat sounds far from his capability, unless his aids are powerful enough. Besides, I kinda like the ongoing war. Any reason why WotC ended it?
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Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 04:28:54
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
The combined powers of Asmodeus and that of Azuth, a minor deity, ended the war? Hmm, doesn't sound plausible... If Asmodeus consumed the essence of either Shar or Cyric, maybe. But then, even that feat sounds far from his capability, unless his aids are powerful enough. Besides, I kinda like the ongoing war. Any reason why WotC ended it?
I'm sure there are plenty of reasons for continuing the war. But, ultimately, maybe Wizards felt that whatever they were attempting to do with the planes, would eventually necessitate the need for the Blood War to end.
Interestingly, I think it's somewhat implausible to assume the Blood War is forever over. We're talking about a conflict that was old before the ancients were young. A conflict that has raged across the entire scope of the multiverse. I find it hard to believe that it would be fully over and done with EVERYWHERE.
If I were ever to incorporate something like this in MY planar cosmology, I'd be sure to leave hints that pockets of resistance... nay... entire crystal spheres were still devoted to millennia-long battles of the Blood War -- simply because the multtiverse is so vast, that, perhaps, not every devil or demon regiment has received a "The War is Over" human-flesh memo. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 05:04:59
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Is the Blood War over? Not in my multiverse!
I am definitely changing the cosmology along with my other tweaks, but primarily to do away with the "separate Outer Planes for each world" nonsense established by 3E. I just haven't determined exactly how things are changing; I want to keep the idea of "upper" and "lower" outer planes, I'm a big fan of the 2E Spelljammer "crystal spheres" concept for handling the Material Plane and different worlds, and I like the structure of the Inner Planes according to pre-4E canon, but I've never been crazy about the Great Wheel as far as the Outer Planes are concerned. If anybody has any ideas, I'm interested. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
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Edited by - Jakk on 14 Sep 2010 05:06:53 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 05:11:49
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I ignore this gaffe by WotC.
If all it took for Asmodeus to become a Greater God and end the Blood War and etc...
He would have simply taken down Tiamat or some other Lesser God that lives within the Nine Hells.
Why would he wait for Azuth to "fall" accidentally into the 9 when he could have easily orchestrated something soooooooo long ago? He wouldn't.
This part really stinks in my book...but as I said...I ignore it. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 05:25:39
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| With as long as the Blood War has raged, I'd expect it to noticably wind down, but take millenia to actually end. That's assuming it would end, which is not something I can see. Primal forces that have been at war since the beginning of time don't just call it quits. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 05:37:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
With as long as the Blood War has raged, I'd expect it to noticably wind down, but take millenia to actually end. That's assuming it would end, which is not something I can see. Primal forces that have been at war since the beginning of time don't just call it quits.
Exactly.
It might even develop into something akin to the real-world Cold War scenario. A, perhaps, Cold Blood War. Officially, the war is over, and all sides are at peace. Unofficially, a secret war of espionage and death -- yugoloth spies, demonic assassins, and devilish diplomats -- all vie for positions of power and influence in a never-ending cycle of planar-brinkmanship. |
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idilippy
Senior Scribe
USA
417 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 05:40:26
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| Also, as jordanz alluded to, any Celestial being opposed to demons or devils doesn't want the Blood War to end, as the drain on the resources of the evil planar creatures is all that keeps them from overrunning the Multiverse. Also, all that effort and energy spent fighting each other gives the Celestials a chance to advance their own interests rather than be forced into conflict with the armies of either of those beings. |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 05:44:19
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Eh. Blood war is still on in my world. Though some do team up to go against good sometimes. It's all good.
Er... It's all evil.... rather... yeah.
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 06:55:22
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Maybe Azuth had a portion of another Diety's power when Asmo ate him with some beans and red wine?
It was pretty chaotic in Mystra's realm when the hit went down.
Possiblities are endless... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
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Edited by - Brimstone on 14 Sep 2010 10:12:33 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 06:57:19
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
If I were ever to incorporate something like this in MY planar cosmology, I'd be sure to leave hints that pockets of resistance... nay... entire crystal spheres were still devoted to millennia-long battles of the Blood War -- simply because the multtiverse is so vast, that, perhaps, not every devil or demon regiment has received a "The War is Over" human-flesh memo.
I'm inclined to agree.
Somehow I can compare the Blood War to the War of the Zulkirs. We saw how the zulkirs fell before Szass Tam. But even Richard considered the possibility that some survived. Perhaps they're just biding their time and building a bigger, stronger army to strike a fatal blow at Tam and reclaim their thrones. Besides, they have hundreds of loyal and treacherous lackeys who might also be brewing schemes, spying to glean on Tam's weakness, and ultimately to overthrow Tam's rule and alleviate their status as the new zulkirs. Likewise, there surely are still denizens of the Abyss who survived Asmodeus's wrath and would one day exact revenge on him; or simply continue to fight the denizens of the Nine in whatever dimension they happen to be strolling...
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 08:10:44
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I was going to suggest a Cold Blood War, but Sage beat me to it!
I don't think it's over so much as Asmodeus deems himself to have won it, or at least decisively thrashed the tanar'ri and ejected them from the astral, down deep into the Elemental Chaos.
That makes things difficult for the demonfolk if they want to continue to wage the war. It's harder for them to get up to the Nine Hells, logistically anyway. And it might be more difficult for demons now to replenish their troops as there may be problems with procuring petitioners due to their loss of their connection with the Astral.
I doubt very much that eating Azuth's soul in itself provided enough power for Asmodeus to ascend to greater godhood. Rather, I think it was just a catalyst, a final ingredient necessary to complete the ritual. The power to fuel the ascension came from elsewhere--perhaps from all the terror, confusion, strife and evil wrought by and during the Spellplague. Asmodeus plays the long game, and he could have been putting things in place for a very long time; had it all arranged waiting for the right moment to take advantage of. It is possible Gargauth could have been putting things in place up on Toril. Azzy could have cashed in all the souls and petitioners Gargauth accumulated. Plus called in all his contracts with mortals. He might have even been storing souls in certain pit fiends, fattening them up on larvae for centuries, or millennia, waiting for the stars to align just so so he could consume them all and power his transformation.
So I think Azuth was just the last important ingredient to trigger the spell--the yeast, rather than the gas to cook with.
Azzy may just see the demons as no longer a threat. He turns his eyes now toward other things. Establishing his church and his power-base on Toril. Positioning himself to be a player among the gods. Building up his divine street-cred.
Meanwhile, the demons are sitting and stewing down in the Chaos. They're not out of the game, but they need a season or two (or a thousand) to rebuild their team. They have to work out how they relate to Toril and the EC around them.
No doubt the elemental folk and the genies find the demons pretty annoying. The elemental are probably trying to hem the demons in, keeping the Tanar'ri from encroaching on elemental territory, such as it is after the Great Stir. The elemental princes have their own territories to stake out now that the landscape is so altered. When the demons start to expand outside the Abyss, the elementals and the genies slap them down fast, and hard. They don't need the demons horning in on their new digs.
Heck, the elemental princes and select genies may even have designs now on Abyssal territory. I bet certain evil elemental princes might think it would be pretty nifty and quite a feather in their cap if they could take over an Abyssal layer or two, oust a demon prince and assume greater power as both the prince of an Abyssal layer and an elemental prince.
So for the time being, the demons are trying to adjust to the new status quo, and their immediate concerns are probably trying to fend off the elementals in their frequent border skirmishes. All the while they have to figure out how to get more souls to create more manes to use as troops.
Perhaps they can convert elementals into demons? But elementals have no souls if I recall (or their body is their soul) so that could be problematic, not sure if they Tanar'ri can use elementals to create new manes. If it were possible, they probably would have done so long ago.
So the Blood War is not over, per se. Just on hold until the demons get their act together. In the meantime Azzy has no use for them, doesn't consider them a threat, and has moved on to other things. |
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aufidius
Acolyte
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 12:46:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I doubt very much that eating Azuth's soul in itself provided enough power for Asmodeus to ascend to greater godhood. Rather, I think it was just a catalyst, a final ingredient necessary to complete the ritual. The power to fuel the ascension came from elsewhere--perhaps from all the terror, confusion, strife and evil wrought by and during the Spellplague. Asmodeus plays the long game, and he could have been putting things in place for a very long time; had it all arranged waiting for the right moment to take advantage of.
That's how I like to see his rise to godhood. I see Asmodeus as an ancient power in himself, always scheming and planning to determine long-term events. I also see him ating Azuth's soul as the trigger element of a highly detailed, pre-conceived plan which fuelled his dormant power, hence -> greater deity. |
"You common cry of curs! whose breath I hate
As reek o' the rotten fens, whose loves I prize
As the dead carcasses of unburied men
That do corrupt my air, I banish you;
And here remain with your uncertainty!
Let every feeble rumour shake your hearts!
Your enemies, with nodding of their plumes,
Fan you into despair! Have the power still
To banish your defenders; till at length
Your ignorance, which finds not till it feels,
Making not reservation of yourselves,
Still your own foes, deliver you as most
Abated captives to some nation
That won you without blows! Despising,
For you, the city, thus I turn my back:
There is a world elsewhere. "
Coriolanus. III.iii |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 12:57:32
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| Exactly what act do the Demons need to get together? It wasn't like their numbers or their power was decimated. As I understand it, the Devils jumped up and moved away. So now we are to believe some elementals are enough to keep the infinite numbers and might of the Abyss at bay? |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 13:02:53
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| I haven't looked at any of the 4th edition material, the spellplague and rewrite of Realms Lore irritated me to much. But, Asmodeus as a greater deity has possibilities. I may use him to off Cyric, who never impressed me as a deity for thoughtful evil. I always saw him as just a two-bit thug and never could relate to him a godfather type. |
Fools to right of them,
Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 13:08:43
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| I thought that WotC ended the Blood war because the whole point of it was Law vs Chaos, and with 4th Lawful Evil no longer exists... The two-axis balance doesn't work anymore. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 15:17:57
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Right - they made some sort of fuss about "unnecessary symmetry" - that the perfect balance Gygax achieved with the Great wheel and all it's planer baggage was "no longer part of the game".
Basically, they couldn't figure-out how to do the opposite-thing in regards to Shar vs Mystra/ Weave vs Shadow-Weave. I know this because I and everyone else on this board and the old WotC boards couldn't wrap out heads around much of it, and there were some pretty clever folks debating all of it.
They made a big deal about squashing Ed's original design of "The Weave = Life", and then when Shadow = Negative energy = Death came about, it totally confused the issue. If the Weave is the opposite of the Shadow Weave, then it should beThe Weave = Positive/Radiant Energy = Life... but they spent so long squashing that idea that they didn't want to look like idiots and admit that Ed was right all along. If Shadow = Death then it's opposite has to = Life to be balanced, which is how it always should of been, otherwise the "life-draining spells" used by the Phaerimm don't make any sense.
Cause... ya' know... that 'life draining' removed all the Magic and life in it's area of effect, and destroyed a powerful, magical empire; ergo, 'Life-draining' = 'Weave Draining'.
So rather then back-peddle they decided to throw away the rest of the already established (and incredibly well-designed) cosmology and call the new one 'unbalanced scrambled eggs'.
They also said along with the 'forced polarity' the old cosmology inflicted upon us, they would get rid of "unnecessary redundancy".
I guess that's why we got Zehir - serpent god #42 - in the 4e Realms.
Anyhow, the way it was said to be at the beginning - with questions asked and answered by designers near the start of 4e - was that each setting is considered separate now, and that what happens in one doesn't necessarily reflect how it is in others (that, at the same time as "One rules to rule them all"???) I believe it was Rich Baker who said that the Blood War has been reduced to thousands of small battles fought throughout the planes, rather then one great, big war, and its importance can vary from extremely significant to non-existent in your own campaign world, depending upon how YOU (the DM) care to spin it.
So what we have in 4e is 'psuedo-lore' - just enough fluff to give you a bit of background, with tons and tons of 'elbow room' for groups to customize their games as they see fit (without having to violate canon, which is now quite 'fuzzy').
To many, this is a 'good thing' - I know from my own experience running GH that incomplete lore lets you do whatever you want (not that you couldn't anyway) It gives you just enough room to run a very homebrew campaign without having to create your own maps or any of the 'broad strokes'.
FR was never meant to be that kind of world - that was it's appeal. without all that Ed-created and Ed-inspired detail, it becomes just another high-fantasy RPG setting amid a sea of such things. The only truly unique aspect about it was the Weave... and that's gone now. Now there is absolutely NO reason to choose it over any other setting when planning a campaign.
But I digress - for all intents and purposes the Blood war does not exist currently in the Realms, but if you want to have a particular group of demons go after a particular group of devils, go for it.
I look at it this way: We do have several canon instances in the past where demons and devils have worked together, so the new take makes a lot of sense (thousands of tiny 'battles' rather then a real war), at least to me. It seems the thing called 'The Blood War' was very important to the part of the Abyss (and its Demons) and Hell (and its devils) that touched the Great Wheel, but not so much 'further from home'. And once you entered the Prime Material, all bets were off.
So I look at it as a clarification more then a retcon, but that's just me - I was never a fan of the Blood war and never used any aspect of it.
On the other hand, the lore surrounding how Asmodeus ended 'the war' is patently ridiculous, and perhaps one of the worst thought-out (or NOT thought-out) pieces of lore EVER. If all the settings are unconnected, then why is there an FR-specific explanation as to why the cosmology changed EVERYWHERE, including in core? 
They used the Realmspace spellplague to explain-away quite a few major D&D changes, which means the Realms are either MUCH more important to the D&D multiverse then anyone ever thought, OR what happened only happened to the FR-specific aspects of the cosmolgy... which means nothing was changed elsewhere... and then we are back to WHY DID EVERYTHING CHANGE IN CORE THEN?
And now we have this multi-planer cross-over thingy going on....
You can't have it both ways WotC - you have to make some hard decisions and stop being so wishy-washy with the facts. Either its the same damn Hell and Abyss for everyone, or its not - make up your minds!
And stop screwing with the rest of the D&D universe just to shoehorn Eberron's unique cosmology into things - you could have just said Eberron's 'system' exist in a separate and unique crystal sphere and be done with it. It worked for Athas - sometimes the simplest solution is the best one. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 15 Sep 2010 02:32:35 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 19:55:12
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Maybe Asmodeus was like Lolth?
Cast down a long long time ago and is just now finally regaining Godhood thanks to Azuth?
I could still see Azuth full of Mystra's power due to contingencies activating after Cyric 'killed' her.
Maybe Azuth was becoming the 'God of Magic'?
Who knows.
Interesting disscussion folks. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 22:53:17
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Rich Baker said that the Blood War almost never had any influence in the Realms, why did it matter.
Tough I played many Planescape adventures, they hardly involved the Blood War, only from the yugoloth side, as their grand experiment of evil. Tanar'ri were mostly in the north, the baatezu in the south, where's more intrigue.
About Asmodeus, he was interesting cause of many conflicting stories, and the one that I liked the most is that he secretly supported disbelief in gods and the Athar, to weaken the planar structure. Therefore the new story does not fit, and devil-worship should be restricted to cults, at least in the Prime.
As for ''Shadow=Death'', I like Shadow as being the battleground of light and dark, with death on the outskirts, that includes Ash, Vacuum, Salt and Dust. |
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aufidius
Acolyte
United Kingdom
5 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 23:38:52
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after a little search I found this old discussion - http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2309&whichpage=2&SearchTerms=asmodeus
seems plausible under certain interpretations that Asmodeus could gain the power to end the blood war, but i suppose it depends of GMs/DMs what interpretation they hold. |
"You common cry of curs! whose breath I hate
As reek o' the rotten fens, whose loves I prize
As the dead carcasses of unburied men
That do corrupt my air, I banish you;
And here remain with your uncertainty!
Let every feeble rumour shake your hearts!
Your enemies, with nodding of their plumes,
Fan you into despair! Have the power still
To banish your defenders; till at length
Your ignorance, which finds not till it feels,
Making not reservation of yourselves,
Still your own foes, deliver you as most
Abated captives to some nation
That won you without blows! Despising,
For you, the city, thus I turn my back:
There is a world elsewhere. "
Coriolanus. III.iii |
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Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
565 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2010 : 00:57:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Rich Baker said that the Blood War almost never had any influence in the Realms, why did it matter.
I find this an unsatisfactory answer, for two reasons. One, if the Blood War didn't matter in the Realms, why waste time mentioning it in a Realms book -- or even more notably, ending it in a Realms book? Two, even if it didn't impact the Realms, it's still extant lore that could have been used in Realms and non-Realms games alike. Why arbitrarily toss aside prior lore for all settings but Eber-whatsit? I don't care if it was Realms-relevant or not, it's still something that was arbitrarily changed. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2010 : 07:37:59
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Exactly what act do the Demons need to get together? It wasn't like their numbers or their power was decimated. As I understand it, the Devils jumped up and moved away. So now we are to believe some elementals are enough to keep the infinite numbers and might of the Abyss at bay?
The demons don't have infinite numbers in the Realms cosmology. They only have the souls of the Realms cosmology to draw from, and most of those are accounted for (due to divine patronage). They can make pacts with mortals, they can make raids on the Fugue Plane. They can presumably make raids on other planes (probably another reason for the Blood War). They can buy/barter larvae from hags and other evil deities. But demons in the Realms don't have infinite resources to draw from like they would in the Great Wheel cosmology.
Note that in the Great Wheel cosmology, it wouldn't make much sense in the first place for the Abyss to get ejected from the Outer Planes and fall down into the Inner Planes. But planes in the Realms cosmology can be created and destroyed and moved, so the Realms planar infrastructure accommodates the new placement of the Abyss more easily.
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2010 : 08:58:56
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| In the 4e PoL core world perhaps, which is about the only place it would make any sense. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
894 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2010 : 12:35:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I find this an unsatisfactory answer, for two reasons. One, if the Blood War didn't matter in the Realms, why waste time mentioning it in a Realms book -- or even more notably, ending it in a Realms book? Two, even if it didn't impact the Realms, it's still extant lore that could have been used in Realms and non-Realms games alike. Why arbitrarily toss aside prior lore for all settings but Eber-whatsit? I don't care if it was Realms-relevant or not, it's still something that was arbitrarily changed.
Good point Wooly, I totally agree. And though it might not be Realms-relevant in the canon edition, it is in MY realms, and thats the most important right?  |
Edited by - Kilvan on 15 Sep 2010 12:35:28 |
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Is the Blood War over?
