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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Jul 2010 : 14:00:02
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I have, since I ever played the forgotten realms, always thought that the might of especially the epic characters seems to be a bit overestimated.
I am for sure that in here there are much more reasoning reasons why this is, but I always remember when we tried to play an "evil" group, that sentence " do not do this or that, or Alustriel, elminster, khelben or whoever will just get annoyed, pop by and fry you to death.
As I recall, even those "super-heroes" are not immortal in any way. Alustriel almost died in the battle for Mithril hall, when she was ambushed by Drow priests and wizards, The patron mother of house baenre was killed by a naked dwarf ( ok... maybe a bit more...)
and when you just read the forgotten realms campaign setting, many of the great heroes who initially slew great wyrms or defeated hordes of devils on the abyss or such, simply got killed shortly after...
So, the true balance between good and evil is the main point here. As I feel, there are at least as many powerful evil individuals as there are good ones, maybe even a lot more, but the good ones have the advantage of teaming up.
So, what is your guys thoughts about the indiviual might of the realms super-heroes, be they good or evil.
A small example: In the alaghi entry there is a phrase about an alaghi druid of at least 20th level, but in the taking of Hellgate keep, where an ally of this power would not go unnoticed IMHO he is not even mentioned, I also do not think that a druid of this power would stay out of a conflict of this size.
On the other hand, many other individuals seemingly have a reputation for being invincible.
What is your opinion on this, dear friends of the realms
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2010 : 14:04:48
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ok, forgot main point
the might of individual adventure groups is therefore overestimated greatly IMHO, related to the bigger picture of the realms.
They all can die pretty fast and not heroic, but they are lifted almost up in the sky.
I know it is part of the game and enjoying the achievements of characters, nothing against it at all - that's one of the main reasons why we all play these kind of games, but is it not very often just pushed a bit too far?
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Saxmilian
Learned Scribe
USA
157 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2010 : 14:42:43
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Ok. Im confused. Are you speaking of heroic deaths or Game-stats? I agree that a 20th level Druid would be noticed on the battlefield, and just about anywhere else they wander. But what about the single low-level dwarf (with cleave) who mananged to hold that tunnel for what seemed like an eternity, allowing the villagers to escape as he single-handly dropped a dozen or more Orc?
I see him beign hailed a hero and spoken of with honor and even toasted by the King when the honored dead are spoken of. (Even if...in game terms the commander of the guard could have dropped a hundred orc without breaking a sweat).
I love the fact that R.A. Salvatore writes his heroes as people and not all god-like forces of battle. Yes Drizzt is an amazing swordsman, but the way R.A. writes you get the impression that Drizzt can be killed (and knows it) by a goblin with a spear and a lucky shot. Or as you pointed out the Quuen of Silverymoon and a drow ambush--Choosen of Mystra or not.
In my home game I have leveled up most of the monsters, mainly the low level ones with a few class levels. My players dont know if they are facing a 10th level Barbarian Orc with an enchanted Battleaxe or the low "easy-kill" ones from the Monster Manual.
Imagine their surprise when they went happily stomping through the kobold caves to rescue the kidnapped baby only to get backstabbed by a few kobold Rogues and then faced the Kobold Adept who had hopped his bodyguards up on some serious potions and scrolls.
"What do you mean my sword bounces off? Where'd this kobold get Stoneskin? Are you kidding me? Traps yeah, but a lightning bolt down these tight tunnels, how were we supposed to avoid that? Are you SURE your not just joking around, like this is a dream??"
Heroes only seem heroes to those that have done nothing heroic. IRL firefighters, police and medics perform heroic acts on a daily basis and never seem to get the recognization they deserve, much less the teacher that perfoms the day to day grind against all odds to help some underprivilaged kid to acheive greatness.
Yes Elminster, Blackstaff and dozens of others are heroic, but mostly (for those of you that havent read most of the books) because of the high number of hit points and spells they can cast.
Why not have the bad guys team up? For those of you that delve into Comic Books know that there are dozens of tales where the bad guys team up to spank the hero...just read any issue of Spiderman...happens to that guy all the time.
Yes, the more "evil" you try to play, the more you are going to be noticed by those Realms-police the Hrpers, Alustriel, adventurers and Elminster (who in the Comic once said why fry the bad guys when another will just jump in and take his place, i have other things to do than fry this guy then that guy and so on) (NOT the actual quoate of course but I dont wanna dig the book out at the momment-LOL)
Elminster and The Simbul might make an awesome team of mighty magics that can shatter the realms, but so would Manshoon and Zas. Not only that, would the good guys stand by and fight the villans head on knowing how many innocent bystanders are going to get sprayed in the fireballs?
Evil villans dont mean stupid or unwilling to work together. Look at War of the Spider Queen. The very idea of taking down one of these heroes would have a half-dozen villans teaming up.
Epic is just that. EPIC. If your going to use these over-the-top icons in your game then only use them in the over-the-top plots and stories. Save the normal stuff for the players and homespun heroes. You need a princess rescued, the hero of the week is Bob the Paladin who has singlehandedly faced down a band of six orcs and lived to tell the tale. You need an evil Ogre squashed then send a runner to Chester the Mage who has hurled the most impressive fireball each and every year at the Festival of the Harvest in this small backwater-town no one has heard of.
My point is to find the heroes everywhere. Elminster might be able to move mountains and cast epic spells that the entire nation of Thay fears, but in my Game, most people dont beleive he's real, could do half that stuff and would rather just have ole' Chester take care of the problem, he's hero enough for anyone. "Plus, I heard he just learned hisself a light'n bolt, gonna be a sight to see blasted orcs wit'out burning down all my corn!" |
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2010 : 17:48:23
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I just say, that some characters are held as nearly immortal, whereas others are just mentioned as being existant.
It is quite difficult for to forumlate in english, but I will try.
See the chosen of mystra, all have this really world-shaking hero image, whereas other mentioned characters, accoridng to game stats for example, or pure level alone, are seen as much weaker or barely existing.
I totally agree with you that I honestly love the way salvatore does it, clearly outlining that even these mighty people/heroes can dye within a few seconds, so them also do not simply fly around and kill all villains on sight.
from my personal experience a lot of GM do use characters like this way too frequently to solve "imminent" problems which they otherwise could not have handled - again just my personal experience.
Elminster stated this very nicely in the 3.0 frcs I think, when he made the article about good and evil, and explained why he does not simply teleport into old tam's lair and burns him to ashes - because tam could do the same to him very well.
what I in general cannot really "accept" is when I read that some heroes start meddling with gos or something the like.
Or killing demon lords or anything in this category, this is then sometimes a bit too much if not handled very carefully.
I do not know if I could make my point clear by this, or just confused you even more, for I feel a bit confused now...
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Jakuta Khan
Senior Scribe
496 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2010 : 17:48:55
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I just say, that some characters are held as nearly immortal, whereas others are just mentioned as being existant.
It is quite difficult for to forumlate in english, but I will try.
See the chosen of mystra, all have this really world-shaking hero image, whereas other mentioned characters, accoridng to game stats for example, or pure level alone, are seen as much weaker or barely existing.
I totally agree with you that I honestly love the way salvatore does it, clearly outlining that even these mighty people/heroes can dye within a few seconds, so them also do not simply fly around and kill all villains on sight.
from my personal experience a lot of GM do use characters like this way too frequently to solve "imminent" problems which they otherwise could not have handled - again just my personal experience.
Elminster stated this very nicely in the 3.0 frcs I think, when he made the article about good and evil, and explained why he does not simply teleport into old tam's lair and burns him to ashes - because tam could do the same to him very well.
what I in general cannot really "accept" is when I read that some heroes start meddling with gos or something the like.
Or killing demon lords or anything in this category, this is then sometimes a bit too much if not handled very carefully.
I do not know if I could make my point clear by this, or just confused you even more, for I feel a bit confused now...
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2010 : 23:38:41
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In the Realms,
-- you can accomplish far more by directing other people (in various ways) than by doing everything in person
-- no one is invincible, but they may want you to think so: the attitude of your evil groups, Jakuta, is just what a Khelben works to make people think, and thereby control them more surely than he could with spell and staff
-- no one is invincible, but mighty folk do have magical wards and contingencies that make them hard to kill permanently
-- the nature of those wards means that attacking your rivals personally, on their territory, puts you at the disadvantage and is a dangerous last-resort tactic
-- there's no line-up of good vs bad, characters of each alignment don't agree on everything -- each person has his or her own goals, which frequently collide with those of others of all alignments; struggles between more-or-less selfish projects outnumber those that are particularly about good, evil, law or chaos
-- published levels are intended to be uncertain, at the DM's discretion; and who and what you know is often more significant than your brute strength of arms or Art
Much follows from these things! See also Krash's current sig.
quote:
Originally posted by Jakuta Khan
See the chosen of mystra, all have this really world-shaking hero image, whereas other mentioned characters, accoridng to game stats for example, or pure level alone, are seen as much weaker or barely existing.
This image has much more to do with TSR and Wizards' promotional and publication choices than with the Realms. |
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Sylrae
Learned Scribe
Canada
313 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 04:58:14
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I always viewed it like this.
Turn the levels upside-down.
For every level 20 character, there are 20 level 1 characters, 10 level 10 characters, 5 level 15 characters, and 15 level 5 characters.
That is, I don't ascribe to the notion that most places are filled with level one NPCs.
Great, Khelben and Elminster are epic level characters. There are alot of other epic characters too that they have to contend with. Likely just as many evil ones as good ones. |
Sylrae's Forgotten Realms Fan-Lore Index, with public commenting access to make for easier improvement (WIP) |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 05:25:37
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Every world has its Legends...sometimes far more exaggerated than their true abilities.
I've considered running a game where Elminster is actually JUST a sage...and some unknown wizard is the one that has the real power...perhaps even Elminster's lanky looking assistant... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 08:48:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I've considered running a game where Elminster is actually JUST a sage...and some unknown wizard is the one that has the real power...perhaps even Elminster's lanky looking assistant...
And in most cases the players would not be any wiser. I actually wonder whether many people in the Realms, except a few wizards, know that Elminster is more than a sage in the first place. Some wild rumours of course, but there are probably stories saying than Manshoon is the incarnation of Bane and that dwarves eat rocks and minerals too. |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 22:29:48
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Heroes of the realms are like celebrities. They still put their pants on one leg at a time. Making heroes appear to be bigger, badder or better than they are is not isolated to fantasy worlds.
Annie Oakley
Chuck Norris
Donald Trump
Pamela Anderson
Snooki!!!!!!! LOL |
Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2010 : 22:59:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I've considered running a game where Elminster is actually JUST a sage...and some unknown wizard is the one that has the real power...perhaps even Elminster's lanky looking assistant...
And in most cases the players would not be any wiser. I actually wonder whether many people in the Realms, except a few wizards, know that Elminster is more than a sage in the first place. Some wild rumours of course, but there are probably stories saying than Manshoon is the incarnation of Bane and that dwarves eat rocks and minerals too.
Exactly Jorkens...
That is why it doesn't matter what we do in our games...because it may very well be true! Who is to say that Lhaeo isn't a grand Arch-Mage who simply makes his magic APPEAR to come from Elminster.
Perhaps Manshoon IS a manifestation of Bane...and THAT is why Fzoul follows him.
Whatever we think of is just as wonderful. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
553 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 03:35:36
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Heroes are impressive but villains need to be moreso or there is little dramatic tension.In the Last Mythal trilogy you had the protagonist running around with the ability to evoke high elf magic on his own. You had the royal elven family who I estimate where all 13th-18th level types but I dont know if you want your heroes getting too much tougher than that.
When they faced off versus Malkizid they still were definite underdogs. Now Malkizid...he was knocking on the door of demi power hood. I suspect he would have been a handful even for types like Khelben...
Make me think of Erevis Cales. Awesome hero but my only gr ipe was maybe he was getting a tad too powerful himself.Towards the end The dude was coming back from some pretty mortal wounds, but he would just regenerate so fast. When you can face off against a demon lord one on one, what is there to fear? |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 05:05:27
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| A Demon Lord and his Lady? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2010 : 08:34:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I've considered running a game where Elminster is actually JUST a sage...and some unknown wizard is the one that has the real power...perhaps even Elminster's lanky looking assistant...
And in most cases the players would not be any wiser. I actually wonder whether many people in the Realms, except a few wizards, know that Elminster is more than a sage in the first place. Some wild rumours of course, but there are probably stories saying than Manshoon is the incarnation of Bane and that dwarves eat rocks and minerals too.
Exactly Jorkens...
That is why it doesn't matter what we do in our games...because it may very well be true! Who is to say that Lhaeo isn't a grand Arch-Mage who simply makes his magic APPEAR to come from Elminster.
Perhaps Manshoon IS a manifestation of Bane...and THAT is why Fzoul follows him.
Whatever we think of is just as wonderful.
That's what I hope comes out of the whole edition conflict, as many alternative views and ideas as possible posted here without thought to canon. No matter what the time period or edition they are intended for.
Maybe it is time I actually did something again myself, its been a couple of years now. |
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Adventurers overestimated?
