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 Mary Sue and Gary Stu?
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Jelennet
Learned Scribe

Russia
131 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2010 :  16:42:53  Show Profile Send Jelennet a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I haven't read many books about Forgotten Realms and I wonder: are there any persons that you can consider a Mary Sue or a Gary Stu? And why?

Edited by - Jelennet on 20 May 2010 17:11:16

Cleric Generic
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
565 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2010 :  16:54:26  Show Profile  Visit Cleric Generic's Homepage Send Cleric Generic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In case anyone was wondering... http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Mary-Sue

I've yet to come across a realms character (official one, anyway) that wasn't written either as an adventure NPC or by a pro novelist or game developer.

I've had the dubious honour of DMing a few Mary/Gary PCs though, and witnessed more than one DM stab their campaign in the face with Mary/Gary party NPCs...

Cedric! The Cleric Generic and Master of Disguise!

ALL HAIL LORD KARSUS!!!

Vast Realmslore Archive: Get in here and download everything! http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/archfr/rl

2e Realms book PDFs; grab em! - http://poleandrope.blogspot.com/2010/07/working-around-purge.html
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2010 :  17:03:43  Show Profile Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Okay, before they start, I'm going to clear up any mistaken impressions some scribes might have about Elminster supposedly being Ed's *pet* character in the Realms. He is not. Both Ed and the Lady Hooded One have, repeatedly, made this quite clear.

Consider this, directly from Ed:-
quote:
No, of course not. WotC authors are often asked to provide “sell copy” for book jackets, though it NEVER reaches print un-tinkered-with, but in the old TSR days, writers were rarely invited to do so. I had never seen that blurb until a copy of the book was brought to me for signing at a convention, and I certainly never wrote a word of it. No, I have never said Elminster is my “alter ego.” TSR has, many times; a practice that began in GenCon pre-registration blurb booklets, describing the seminars I did in costume, acting the part of Elminster - - ALSO a practice TSR asked me to begin and carry on. When they, many years later, asked me to leave the costume at home, I happily did so. Those robes are hot. :}
To reiterate: I have never, ever said that Elminster is my alter ego or wish fulfillment character, or thought that way for one minute. I will never use any Realms characters in that manner, because doing so would ruin the whole fun of creating the world and its characters, and watching what happens and how they evolve. Just as all of the gamers who have played various PC adventurers in my Realms sessions over the years are playing roles, not themselves.

So saith Ed. Who will return with regular Realmslore about ten hours from now, if he stays on schedule.
love,
THO

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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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DrunkenHadozee
Acolyte

8 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2010 :  17:17:20  Show Profile  Visit DrunkenHadozee's Homepage Send DrunkenHadozee a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Also from Ed:

quote:
[...]And I've said before (as have Mark Twain, Diogenes, and scores of others down the ages): it's the mark of an idiot, or someone being deliberately intellectually dishonest (knowingly twisting the truth) to equate what a CHARACTER says or does with what the CREATOR of that character believes or does. (College professors please take note. :}) Legions of folks regularly try to skewer me for being perverted, sexist, a bed-wetter, or whatever for writing some of the Seven Sisters and Elminster as rather lusty. In doing so they have to conveniently ignore all of the decidely straight-laced characters (Piergeiron, et al) I also put into the Realms. I created the "cast of thousands," people, and I know in our real world how angry people can get when someone publicly judges a race or country by looking at one individual ("See? And all Americans are like that!" or glance at Hitler and then judge all . . . get the idea?). So why is it valid to be so weak-minded or dishonest as to think anyone who writes about slavery must secretly BE a slaver? Geez, I guess all of these American historical writers must get up from the keyboard to go down to the cellar and get to whupping their slaves every night, right? And so on.

Edited by - DrunkenHadozee on 20 May 2010 17:19:15
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Kyrene
Senior Scribe

South Africa
747 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2010 :  17:41:19  Show Profile  Visit Kyrene's Homepage Send Kyrene a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I do consider Shandril a borderline-Sue, but that gets far outstripped by the cracking good yarn that is Shandril's Saga. Often a Mary or Gary is required if used in good measure.

Conversely, I have read only one other Realms novel with a character that is a Gary Stu, but there also the rest of the mediocre tale outstripped the mere [badness of the] protagonist.

Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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The Red Walker
Great Reader

USA
3563 Posts

Posted - 20 May 2010 :  18:46:47  Show Profile Send The Red Walker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Phyrea from the Watcourse Trilogy........just typing that made me almost ill

A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka

"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -

John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15724 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2010 :  00:58:20  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tavis Burdun the Firbolg in the Twilight Giants series.

I can't honestly say the worst Realms series around, but at its best it seems like very little was done to make it seem like it was set in the Forgotten Realms.

You can take the whole trilogy and dump it anywhere, from Narnia to MiddlEarth to some other planet in outer space and you would have to slightly change maybe 5 sentences across the entire series.

That being said, the protagonist was so perfect and 'Uber' that if he had ducked into a phonebooth and pulled open his leather jerkin exposing a big, red 'S', I wouldn't have batted an eye.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 21 May 2010 01:00:28
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2010 :  01:07:13  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The closest thing to such a character in the published Realms that I can think of is Cyric, and I only believe that because I think Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul were far superior, both individually and as an interesting triumvirate of evil deities, to anything Cyric had to offer the Realms. Of course, because Richard Awlinson was a pen name for two different authors, Cyric falls short of the strict definition of a "Gary Stu"... although I will confess to not being a fan of either author's Realms work. If you don't know who they are, Google the pseudonym; I see no need to publicly identify them here, and this is my opinion. I'm debating rewinding the history of my Realms to either change or erase entirely the Avatar Crisis... the problem with the latter option being how heavily entwined Cyric is in the big events that follow over the next twenty years.

Anyway, I'm digressing from the topic, so I'll shut up now.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.

Edited by - Jakk on 21 May 2010 01:08:57
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Hrandar Bearmaul
Acolyte

3 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2010 :  01:33:24  Show Profile  Visit Hrandar Bearmaul's Homepage Send Hrandar Bearmaul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm surprised more people didn't vote Drizzt as a Gary, not because I personally think so, but because I've noticed often that other realms fans find him to be quite overrated and whatnot. Though his emo-ness might be enough to make him not perfect and thus not a Gary
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Jakk
Great Reader

Canada
2165 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2010 :  01:46:32  Show Profile Send Jakk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To be honest, I completely forgot about Drizzt. He's become more or less a non-entity in my Realms, apart from the fact that he trained the son of one of the characters in the last 2E Realms campaign I DMed. The player of that character (a paladin of Tyr) is now my DM in the same historical continuity, a generation later (circa 1400 DR). It's been interesting; we're into the fifteenth century DR, and no Spellplague in sight.

Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.

If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36782 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2010 :  02:38:45  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Tavis Burdun the Firbolg in the Twilight Giants series.

I can't honestly say the worst Realms series around, but at its best it seems like very little was done to make it seem like it was set in the Forgotten Realms.

You can take the whole trilogy and dump it anywhere, from Narnia to MiddlEarth to some other planet in outer space and you would have to slightly change maybe 5 sentences across the entire series.

That being said, the protagonist was so perfect and 'Uber' that if he had ducked into a phonebooth and pulled open his leather jerkin exposing a big, red 'S', I wouldn't have batted an eye.



I didn't see the character as a Mary Sue, but I otherwise agree with you on the protagonist. It's part of the reason I never bothered with the second and third books of the trilogy.

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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
3286 Posts

Posted - 21 May 2010 :  14:46:37  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk

The closest thing to such a character in the published Realms that I can think of is Cyric, and I only believe that because I think Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul were far superior, both individually and as an interesting triumvirate of evil deities, to anything Cyric had to offer the Realms. Of course, because Richard Awlinson was a pen name for two different authors, Cyric falls short of the strict definition of a "Gary Stu"... although I will confess to not being a fan of either author's Realms work. If you don't know who they are, Google the pseudonym; I see no need to publicly identify them here, and this is my opinion. I'm debating rewinding the history of my Realms to either change or erase entirely the Avatar Crisis... the problem with the latter option being how heavily entwined Cyric is in the big events that follow over the next twenty years.

Anyway, I'm digressing from the topic, so I'll shut up now.


I am thinking of having Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul kill Mystra in my Realms. Aided by Velsharoon. Maybe they could become the 'New Magic Mini-Pantheon' of the Realms.

Cyric will be a demigod, maybe I will have him kill Xvim...

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 24 May 2010 :  13:28:53  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Tavis Burdun the Firbolg in the Twilight Giants series.

I can't honestly say the worst Realms series around, but at its best it seems like very little was done to make it seem like it was set in the Forgotten Realms.

You can take the whole trilogy and dump it anywhere, from Narnia to MiddlEarth to some other planet in outer space and you would have to slightly change maybe 5 sentences across the entire series.

That being said, the protagonist was so perfect and 'Uber' that if he had ducked into a phonebooth and pulled open his leather jerkin exposing a big, red 'S', I wouldn't have batted an eye.



I didn't see the character as a Mary Sue, but I otherwise agree with you on the protagonist. It's part of the reason I never bothered with the second and third books of the trilogy.



If you didn't like the first one there is little reason to read the others, as that is the best one in my opinion.

As for the whole Mary Sue or a Gary Stu thing. As with "Purple Prose" its a term used so subjectivity and loosely that its impossible for me to answer.
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