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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Aug 2010 : 19:13:52
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| The story in the background of my time-travel campaign was also inspired by Marvel, only it did not had GOD (that's weird imo) but a demiurge who was like the Phoenix and ''vomited'' that radiant energy (inspired by Mayan myths) at the start of every age. The Far Realms was the stuff shunned by the fiery purge of the Phoenix-energy, they were remnants of previous, ''wrong'' multiverses, existing not as a part of the Planes of Chaos. I don't think the outer planes have a size, being all in the Astral. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 02:23:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Gray, do you think the transitive planes are the oldest ones?
I like the idea about the Wheel as a machine of souls, so then the Doomguard would claim that it is not a perpetual motion machine with 100 % efficiency, right?
I think the Ethereal Plane is the oldest plane--a plane of pure potential. From out of the mists of the Ethereal Plane the Elemental Chaos formed in an event that might be described by modern day physicists as spontaneous symmetry breaking. Over time, the Elemental Chaos eventually distilled into discrete elements that congregated in "layers."
From out of the basic building blocks of the Inner Planes, the Prime Material formed. This may require divine or, more likely, over-divine intervention to form Material Plane crystal spheres. However, it is unknown if such intervention is necessary. Some crystal spheres may form spontaneously on their own as a "bubble" of probability that wells up out of the Ethereal, or as a subsequent gauge breaking event--in the manner that, when liquid water changes phase, either ice or steam forms and floats up to the surface.
The Outer Planes form only as a result of life emerging in the material plane and the upwelling of thought and belief congeals into deities and astral dominions. With regard to the Astral Plane itself, though, as a transitive plane, I am unsure. It may form spontaneously when a critical mass of thought and soul-er energy (psyche or incarnum) is reached within the crystal sphere. Or it may be a pre-existing medium through which this energy travels to form the Outer Planes.
The Guide to the Astral Plane calls the Astral the "backstage" of the cosmos. A secret space, where all the infrastructure and props are hidden from the public behind a curtain. No one was ever meant to see the Astral, but folks found ways getting back there, so now it gets as much traffic as any other plane. The Astral might have existed as long as, or even longer than the Ethereal. Is the Astral the yin to the Ethereal's yang? Or does the Ethereal exist within the medium of the Astral? Or is the Astral the absence of medium? An empty silver void that began to be filled with the soulstuff of living things spun off from the Material Plane? This is something I will have to ponder further, although the answers may be ultimately unknowable.
And something that gets neglected is the nature of the Phlogiston, which may be a transitive plane in its own right. According to some theories, the Material Plane ends at the walls of the crystal sphere, and what's outside is something altogether different. Outside the crystal spheres are currents of multi-colored, luminescent gas, the Phlogiston, which appears to be a medium in which the crystal spheres are suspended.
Now the metaphysics of the Phlogiston gets kind of shaky. Is the Phlogiston a plane or a substance that fills the plane? If it's not a plane itself, then what plane does it occupy? The Prime Material? Or something else.
My own theory is that the Phlogiston permeates the Plane of Shadow, which links all crystal spheres and universes together. Inside the boundaries of a crystal sphere, the plane of Shadow reflects and is coterminous with the countours of the Material Plane that floats within it, manifesting as a Shadowfell. Outside the boundaries of the shell of the crystal sphere, there is no material plane to reflect, so it is empty--filled only with the nebulae of luminous gas called the Phlogiston.
I imagine the gas that makes up the Phlogiston to be composed of virtual particles of probability, spontaneous ether trying to form an ethereal plane, in the way our own universe forms virtual particles continuously boiling up out of the quantum foam. The luminosity of the Phlogiston I envisage as a kind of cherenkov radiation given off by the continual creation and annihilation of these virtual particles.
In that sense, Shadow may be the original transitive plane, the plane that predates everything and links everything together.
With regards to the Realms, we are told that Ao created Toril's Crystal sphere in the midst of an empty patch of Phlogiston. It has been stated in several sources that this crystal sphere was filled with a uniform, grey mist--which I take to mean an empty Ethereal Plane. All the celestial bodies of the Material Plane formed afterward, in a manner I can only surmise followed the plan mentioned above: the Inner Planes distilled out from the raw potential of the Ethereal, and the Material Plane formed from the elementary particles generated from the Elemental Chaos--perhaps as a byproduct of the Chaos "cooling" and segregating into discreet layers; or perhaps as an act of creation by the gods, such as Selûne and Shar. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 08:17:51
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Gee, never thought I'd see the day when I had to try and understand 'quantum realmslore'. Good stuff anyway Gray - even if it is a bit over the head of this greybeard.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2010 : 21:53:23
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We had that conversation awhile ago, Gray, wherein we were contemplating the connection between the Shadow and the Phlogiston. Good times... good times.
I think the Border Ethereal plays a part, but rather then being just the border of the ethereal plane, as so many Scholars have thought through the ages, it is actually the 'cosmic crossroads' of all planes.
Like the 'Wood between the worlds', or the Middlemarch in Moorcock's (Elric, etc..) stories, it exist as an in-between space where all other realities meet, and it is therefore the transitive plane of transitive planes. It is the place where Fey creatures (like Lythari) go en route to faerie, but it can be used in-and-of itself as a 'short cut' of sorts (like what happened in the original Moonshaes trilogy).
'Arcane space' (the stuff within a Crystal Sphere) then becomes this border-plane, and the phlogiston becomes the plane of Shadows. You travel through the border-area to reach the Shadowfel, or any other transitive plane, and your 'direction' (the destination you are focusing on mentally) determines what you see and and experience along the way. Like all else in the universe, mortal perception becomes 'colored' by their expectations.
Ergo, when a Spelljamming vessel travels outside of a planet's atmosphere, we as logical, thinking beings coming from a high-tech world know that such a thing is impossible... and it is. What is happening is that as the ship reaches the outer edges of the planet's atmosphere it begins to shift into the border-plane, allowing it to enter 'space', and travel to other worlds. Thus, 'Arcane Space' is actually another plane - the proto-transitive plane. Once it enters another planet's atmosphere (or gravity-well), it begins to 'fade-in' to the Prime Material again. The nature of the Spelljamming Helm not only maintains the protective bubble around the vessel, but also allows this shift between the 'real world' and the border ethereal.
Objects within the Border plane can see things in the plane they left, but as they draw closer to other planes {like shadow) they will instead see things in that plane (misty, elusive 'shadows' at first, with things becoming more defined as they begin to actually enter that other plane). This means that a spelljamming vessel would be able to see a space shuttle from our own plane traveling past, but the shuttle's occupants would not be aware of the spelljamming vessel, which is traveling slighlty out-of-sync with our own quantum universe. This bit is not only based on some of the old 1e/2e lore of the border ethereal (and astral, IIRC), about beings within it 'seeing out', but also accounts for such discrepancies as a technological spaceship traveling to the known D&D worlds. I can think of one canon example - Expedition to the Barrier Peaks, which we found out in the final print issue of Dragon magazine was but a single jettisoned module from a much larger craft from a completely different game system! (the ship Warden from Metamorphosis Alpha). So, you CAN have a spaceship traveling to Toril - be it the Enterprise or the Deathstar - but the folks on those vessels will not be aware of the oddities around them - only the normal physics of space. Once they drop-out of warp, or whatever, and enter a planet's gravity or atmosphere, then they fall prey to whatever strange rules apply to the crystal sphere or plane they are in (meaning the Enterprise would be stuck in orbit around Toril unless 'Q' gave them a hand, or Elminster had a friendly dragon tow them to the shell of the sphere and pushed them through).
I'm sure Spock would explain it as a "sub-space anomaly that warped the normal laws of physics". Absurd? Perhaps... but then you haven't read the Star Trek/X-men crossover, wherein Kirk got upset when Gladiator punched the Enterprise. 
I just thought of something - that means Warp-Space (and I suppose, trans-warp) would be a transitive planes within a technological cosmology. One only accessible with 'the magic' of high technology. Perhaps that is the plane folks travel through when the teleport, or use a portal, similar to 'the ways' in Wheel of Time. The plane of speed? 
I guess that's where The Flash gets his 'Speed Force' from.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Aug 2010 21:57:52 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 01:28:36
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One question that has been gnawing at me has been: what happened to the Ethereal Plane after the Spellplague?
My original theory was that it got absorbed into the Feywild or the Shadowfell or even got split between them and absorbed into both of them in equal parts. This is no longer my thinking.
After much consideration, I think the simplest answer is that the Ethereal is just all mixed in with the Elemental Chaos. Consider that the Elemental Planes were all segregated into separate layers of (relatively) pure elements, including fire, water, earth, air, positive and negative energy, and the quasi- and para-elemental "planes" lying between them, all coterminous at the borders, one touching another with the inhabitants able to walk between these planes by traveling past the edges. In some ways it could always be described as one big spherical (or hyperspherical) plane with the elements aggregating in separate areas--kind of like the Earth's continents. And all of this was suspended, floating in the medium of the Ethereal Plane.
But with the explosion of Dweomerheart, and the Weave, the resulting shock-waves mixed up the Elemental Planes, like a blender, or one of those Ronco "in the egg" egg scramblers. Or maybe more like a martini shaker. Anyway, the Elemental Planes were all stirred up, sort of dissolved into the Ethereal and disseminated all through it. Or maybe more like a colloidal suspension--droplets, or pockets, of elements rather than a uniform solution.
So in that sense, the Ethereal might still be sort of there, ubiquitous, permeating the entire Elemental Chaos--just hard to discern, like trying to see the forest through all the trees.
So when a salamander or a mephit asks you what happened to the old Ethereal Plane, like Madge the manicurist in those old Palmolive commercials, you can reply: "You're soaking in it!"
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2010 : 03:14:24
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LOL
Nice |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 17:59:05
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Tyranthraxus...also called "Tirantikus" in the Ruins of Adventure module.
Has anyone run across this name anywhere else? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 18:32:23
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| I like you, Gray, you're smart. |
The Silver Fire's Blade: A Novella in Nine Parts, Available Soon, in the Adventuring Forum!
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 18:52:09
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As opposed to...?
Yes, Gray is very smart, and I ALWAYS enjoy discussions with him. His planer knowledge has proved invaluable at times. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 01:48:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Tyranthraxus...also called "Tirantikus" in the Ruins of Adventure module.
Has anyone run across this name anywhere else?
Hmmm. I don't immediately recall seeing it mentioned anywhere else. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 14:56:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Tyranthraxus...also called "Tirantikus" in the Ruins of Adventure module.
Has anyone run across this name anywhere else?
What page on the module? I can't find it at the moment. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 15:27:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
The Guide to the Astral Plane calls the Astral the "backstage" of the cosmos. A secret space, where all the infrastructure and props are hidden from the public behind a curtain. No one was ever meant to see the Astral, but folks found ways getting back there, so now it gets as much traffic as any other plane. The Astral might have existed as long as, or even longer than the Ethereal. Is the Astral the yin to the Ethereal's yang? Or does the Ethereal exist within the medium of the Astral? Or is the Astral the absence of medium? An empty silver void that began to be filled with the soulstuff of living things spun off from the Material Plane? This is something I will have to ponder further, although the answers may be ultimately unknowable.
And something that gets neglected is the nature of the Phlogiston, which may be a transitive plane in its own right. According to some theories, the Material Plane ends at the walls of the crystal sphere, and what's outside is something altogether different. Outside the crystal spheres are currents of multi-colored, luminescent gas, the Phlogiston, which appears to be a medium in which the crystal spheres are suspended.
Now the metaphysics of the Phlogiston gets kind of shaky. Is the Phlogiston a plane or a substance that fills the plane? If it's not a plane itself, then what plane does it occupy? The Prime Material? Or something else.
Phlogiston is too neglected for a such great idea. The crystal spheres, I'd rather have them in the background than material. What about Dream, what if Dream the potential from which the Astral emerged, e.g. some god-like being waking up. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 18:18:21
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In my dream cosmology, the Plane of Dreams is part of a triad of super-transitive demi-planes, along with the Feywild (Faerie, the land of daydreams), and the Shadowfel (the Nightmare Realms). This worked better when Faerie and Ravenloft were separate demi-planes unto themselves, but its still usable.
I suppose This formation should float in the astral, since that is the 'Plane of Thought'.
If we want to use Gray's suggestion of a third, unknown plane (The Ordial), and marry it to a holistic viewpoint of the universe, we could have a super-triad of transitive planes that incorporate the three essences of being - Body (Ordial), Mind (Astral), and Soul (Ehtereal).
Personally, I use Outer, Inner, and Prime Material Planes for those, but it's all good.
I'm just looking at the D&D wiki, and there used to be three transitive planes anyway - the Astral, Ethereal, and Shadow. Perhaps the Feywild IS the deep Ethereal? In the desire to keep things consistent from edition to edition, I would hazard to guess that the Feywild is the deepest part of the Ethereal, and the Ordial Plane then becomes a demi-plane within the Astral (each of the major three transitive planes should have one demi-plane, which functions as the consciousness of the plane itself). Think of the transitive demi-planes as the Awareness of the transitive planes (the part that reaches out into other planes and grabs folk for their own, alien purposes). Anyhow, in that way, we fall back on the tried-and-true "the planes and/or gods are beyond mortal understanding", so what one edition refers to as the 'Plane of Dread', another might call the Shadowfel, or 'the negative Plane', but its really all the same thing, and only the way in which mortals theorize the multiverse changes how they perceive it.
The only problem I have with using those original three would be that Shadow seems appropriate as the 'Soul' plane (which doesn't work for me). But since I don't use the transitives for the Holistic viewpoint, it doesn't really matter I guess.
On the other hand, if we add yet another plane into the mix - the Radiant (which should be included as a transient plane), we still have a mystical number - Five (the number of points on a Pentagram).
So you would have the three cosmological transitive planes stitching-together the Inner, Outer and prime planes, and above that you would have positive energy (the Radiant Plane), and below negative Energy (The Shadowfel), similar to the 1e/2e model, with the Great Wheel spinning in-between those two planes, like a great, cosmic battery, with 'soulstuff' (Incarnum?) slowly moving from one pole to the other (and we have Gray to thank for that neat idea).
I'm going on vacation again tonight (life is rough  ), but when I get back I'm going to install my new copy of PS and see if I can come up with a decent mock-up of that. I picture the Great Wheel being a huge gear now... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Aug 2010 18:21:58 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 20:01:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Tyranthraxus...also called "Tirantikus" in the Ruins of Adventure module.
Has anyone run across this name anywhere else?
What page on the module? I can't find it at the moment.
Page 62 on the left column when the Zhentilar officer is talking to the party... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 20:50:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Tyranthraxus...also called "Tirantikus" in the Ruins of Adventure module.
Has anyone run across this name anywhere else?
What page on the module? I can't find it at the moment.
Page 62 on the left column when the Zhentilar officer is talking to the party...
Ah,interesting piece of information. I will dig through the 'Curse of the Azure Bonds' module later in the week to see if there is another reference to that name. Also, I'm playing the video game and will make a detour to the Zhents base later in the month. So far in the video game, Ferran Martinez mentions Edranka & Torath are 'unblessed creatures' like Tyranthrxus. I was under the impression they were normal humanoids. This was on screen information and not found in a PRJ entry.
I'll post here if I learn anything new. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 21:17:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
Ah,interesting piece of information. I will dig through the 'Curse of the Azure Bonds' module later in the week to see if there is another reference to that name. Also, I'm playing the video game and will make a detour to the Zhents base later in the month. So far in the video game, Ferran Martinez mentions Edranka & Torath are 'unblessed creatures' like Tyranthrxus. I was under the impression they were normal humanoids. This was on screen information and not found in a PRJ entry.
I'll post here if I learn anything new.
Please do!
Man...is there anyway to play the Pool of Radiance on Vista? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 22:39:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Man...is there anyway to play the Pool of Radiance on Vista?
All you need is a good 386 emulator. I'm still on Windows XP, so I can't make a suggestion for Vista. |
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2010 : 22:54:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Halidan
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Man...is there anyway to play the Pool of Radiance on Vista?
All you need is a good 386 emulator. I'm still on Windows XP, so I can't make a suggestion for Vista.
386 Emulator?
I'll have to google that and learn a thing or two... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2010 : 13:03:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
Ah,interesting piece of information. I will dig through the 'Curse of the Azure Bonds' module later in the week to see if there is another reference to that name. Also, I'm playing the video game and will make a detour to the Zhents base later in the month. So far in the video game, Ferran Martinez mentions Edranka & Torath are 'unblessed creatures' like Tyranthrxus. I was under the impression they were normal humanoids. This was on screen information and not found in a PRJ entry.
I'll post here if I learn anything new.
Please do!
Man...is there anyway to play the Pool of Radiance on Vista?
The Commandant of the Zhent outpost does mention the Tirantikus connection. This is on screen information only and it is his pet theory. I couldn’t find any more information in the Curse module. There could be some lore in the Ruins of Zhentil Keep box set but I don’t own the box set. :(
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I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2010 : 16:38:59
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| I have the boxed set...but I haven't found any mention there of a Tirantikus... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2010 : 22:56:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I have the boxed set...but I haven't found any mention there of a Tirantikus...
And I haven't found anything new either. The name must come from a local myth. Too bad we don't know where the Zhent Commandant grew up.
Also, someone mentioned Tyranthraxus being the same being as Anthraxus. I have found nothing to support this as a fact. I do know from the novel that Tyranthraxus mentions escaping from his home realm. And in this place he was minor being... |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 01:09:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I have the boxed set...but I haven't found any mention there of a Tirantikus...
And I haven't found anything new either. The name must come from a local myth. Too bad we don't know where the Zhent Commandant grew up.
Also, someone mentioned Tyranthraxus being the same being as Anthraxus. I have found nothing to support this as a fact. I do know from the novel that Tyranthraxus mentions escaping from his home realm. And in this place he was minor being...
Since many are describing him as a Primordial, perhaps he escaped from Aber...
He could also have been imprisoned in some demi-plane of prisons though. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 01:47:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Bakra
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I have the boxed set...but I haven't found any mention there of a Tirantikus...
And I haven't found anything new either. The name must come from a local myth.
Or it could simply be just an archaic form of the name. Or a perpetuated misspelling that's lingered in some sources, due mainly to unreliable record-keeping.
quote:
Also, someone mentioned Tyranthraxus being the same being as Anthraxus. I have found nothing to support this as a fact. I do know from the novel that Tyranthraxus mentions escaping from his home realm. And in this place he was minor being...
Which, I suppose, could be suggested by some that Tyranthraxus's "minor being" status was the result of his fall from his position as the Oinoloth. However, I've never read of any definitive lore that says Tyranthraxus was an Ultroloth, like Anthraxus.
Aside from their names being similar, to some degree, I don't really think there's much connection between them. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 16:43:25
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I would lean towards a misspelling/mispronunciation of Tyranthraxus myself. Names do get garbled down through the centuries as tales are told and re-told. It could be as simple as how that names sounds with a certain accent attached to the speaker.
I still like the Anthraxus-as-the-original-being scenario, however you spin it. FR is full of that sort of stuff - deities absorbing others, changing, and splitting apart, etc.. it just fits the setting.
I just thought of something funny - I picture Ao being a HUGE Lava lamp, and all the gods are that amorphous stuff inside.
EDIT: And getting back on-topic more, I think 'taint' is the best way to go with creatures working for a fiend, whatever its origins, and perfectly fits the title 'Twisted Ones'. You can have the Gnolls/Flinds be an Island of Dr. Moreau type scenario then, if you want (although broken ones are the perfect fit for that).
You could also use Broken Ones as cast-offs, until Tyranthraxus got what he wanted - the feral, Gnoll-like warriors he was hoping for (in the same way that Uruk-Hai were 'perfected' orcs).
Lots of ways to spin that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Aug 2010 16:49:57 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 17:25:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I still like the Anthraxus-as-the-original-being scenario, however you spin it. FR is full of that sort of stuff - deities absorbing others, changing, and splitting apart, etc.. it just fits the setting.
I don't have any actual problem with that theory. I'd just expect that if the "Anthraxus-to-Tyranthraxus" concept were true, I would like to see some acknowledgement of his Oinoloth past.
Though, thinking about this further, it's entirely possible that Tyranthraxus might not remember his past. When Anthraxus fell from the position of Oinoloth, it was said that he scoured the lower planes looking to offer his services to various evil powers. Perhaps one of these deity's "took pity" on the fallen Ultroloth, and shaped [and by this I mean, from a physical presence to that of a disembodied entity] him into something that would ultimately suit the deity's own agenda. That could explain the addition of the "possessing spirit" aspect to his being, as well as some of his other strange abilities, as noted in the Villains' Lorebook. |
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Shemmy
Senior Scribe
USA
492 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 19:03:32
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I still like the Anthraxus-as-the-original-being scenario, however you spin it. FR is full of that sort of stuff - deities absorbing others, changing, and splitting apart, etc.. it just fits the setting.
I don't have any actual problem with that theory. I'd just expect that if the "Anthraxus-to-Tyranthraxus" concept were true, I would like to see some acknowledgement of his Oinoloth past.
Though, thinking about this further, it's entirely possible that Tyranthraxus might not remember his past. When Anthraxus fell from the position of Oinoloth, it was said that he scoured the lower planes looking to offer his services to various evil powers. Perhaps one of these deity's "took pity" on the fallen Ultroloth, and shaped [and by this I mean, from a physical presence to that of a disembodied entity] him into something that would ultimately suit the deity's own agenda. That could explain the addition of the "possessing spirit" aspect to his being, as well as some of his other strange abilities, as noted in the Villains' Lorebook.
The mention of "Tyranthraxus" likely predates the fall of Anthraxus as Oinoloth however. Also, it's probably up for debate if other beings with a vested interest in the former Oinoloth (ie The Demented) would allow him to be used as a puppet in such a diminished form by a deity.
But again, I would strongly argue for no connection between Anthraxus and Tyranthraxus beyond a similar name. |
Shemeska the Marauder, King of the Crosstrade; voted #1 best Arcanaloth in Sigil two hundred years running by the people who know what's best for them; chant broker; prospective Sigil council member next election; and official travel agent for Chamada Holiday specials LLC.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 20:08:08
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Similar?
Its an amalgam of Tyr + Anthraxus. That's a whole lot more telling then the 'Tirantikus' thing.
Anyhow, these are really little more then mental exercises to give DMs ideas - I doubt we will be seeing any canon about the distant past anymore.
And to show that I can argue both sides, we do indeed have precedents of similar-sounding names amongst the lower planes - Bhaal and Baal, Gog and Magog, Satan/Satanish/Shaitan, Mephisto/Mephistopheles, etc.....
That last one, coupled with 'Mephits' makes me think that the prefix 'Meph' perhaps means something in some infernal tongue, although what I couldn't even guess. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 20:26:18
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This has been a fascinating discussion... so much so that I've copied and pasted most of it into Notepad. Yes, I use Notepad for all my CK transcriptions. It's faster than dealing with Word, and I don't need text formatting anyway.
However, another idea just occurred to me as I was going back through this... what if there is a connection between Tyranthraxus and Anthraxus... and that connection is Tyr... but the connection goes deeper than previously theorized?
Before Tyr came to the Realms, in his planar travels he encountered a bewitchingly beautiful goddess... or so he thought. This "goddess" was actually Anthraxus in another form, who conceives a child with Tyr and returns to the Gray Waste. Anthraxus' offspring is left nameless at birth, but when he is old enough, he is told the secret of his parentage, and he takes the name of Tyranthraxus. In the meantime, Tyr has discovered the truth of his dalliance, and this is why the church of Tyr is such a dedicated foe of the Flamed One. As far as the other details of Tyranthraxus' past, I think that's already been very well done by Markustay, Gray, Quale, and others before me in this scroll.
Really, if you think about Anthraxus' "true" (or most common) form, you can understand Tyr's revulsion and hatred for his progeny.
On a related note: does anyone have any information regarding Mydianchlarus (Anthraxus' successor as Oinoloth)? |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 24 Aug 2010 20:27:12 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 21:12:44
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Probably a love-child of Mydia and Anchlarus
But seriously, that's is another unique take on the name Jakk. The only problem I have is why Anthraxus wanted a child by Tyr (did it have something to do with the Realms?), and how 'it' was able to deceive him.
I just had a funny thought... I picture Tyr bleeding and near-death right after his hand got eaten by Kezif/Garm (in the lower planes, naturally), and a rather hideous but love-sick Anthraxus finding him and nursing him back to health. Talk about your grotesque Misery scenario. 
just found this rather interesting tidbit on Wikipedia about Tyr-quote:
In Lokasenna, Tyr is taunted with cuckoldry by Loki, maybe another hint that he had a consort or wife at one time.
Interesting... we know Norse gods have a thing for strange relationships (and I think Annam is really Odin, BTW), as many gods in myths do, so this now becomes somewhat plausible. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Rhewtani
Senior Scribe
USA
508 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 21:43:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Similar?
Its an amalgam of Tyr + Anthraxus. That's a whole lot more telling then the 'Tirantikus' thing.
Suddenly occurs to me that it could be the amalgam of Tyrant and Anthraxus. So, the name change would have happened when he bowed before Bane, God of Tyranny. |
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Tyranthraxus and the Twisted Ones
