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Silmarien Aldalome
Acolyte
Australia
24 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Aug 2003 : 13:48:51
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I would firstly like to thank Naquil and Mournblade for their assistance on another thread here. I really could not have produced the following theory without their aid.
In the next Post, you will find a theory that attempts to integrate many disparate odds and sods about Weave and Shadow Weave. It is inspired by the mystery of Faerun.
I wish to add here, that all this Faerunian stuff is all made up! But, I've found repeatedly, that people get all 'flame-y' about it - and I often see threads change as they evolve - at those points where people disagree.
In the spirit of fun I love you all and want to remind everyone to stay playful about discrepancies in Faerunian Lore.
Please comment on the theory I've posted. It has problems - many due to the discrepancies in available lore. But, it's just like 'theory space' in life in that sense. Meaning, theory never ever explains anything, really, ultimately, truely - it is only ever an approximation of 'isness'. So, while you hava look - remember it's all just made up.
And enjoy yourselves as you do so.
Again, this thread is a celebration of all you labour.
My best wishes to you
Silmarien Aldalome
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Silmarien Aldalome
Acolyte
Australia
24 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2003 : 13:56:21
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Definitions:
1. Equifinality: i.e. "many streams converge into big river"
2. Multifinality: i.e "One river splits into many streams".
3. Positive Valence: Something with a "+" sign connected to it.
4. Negative Valence: Something with a "-" sign connected to it.
5. Synergy: any interaction effect, not predicted, or not easily predicted by linear, additive effects (e.g. Vortices, Karstone's Whole Magic).
6. Realmspace: anywhere in the Magical Universe - particularly Weave-Related Places.
7. Metaphysical Space: another plane of existence - that can be overlapping or non-overlapping with Realmspace.
8. Non-Space: metaphysical space that does not take up volume.
------------------------------------
Seven Assumptions of Theory
Assumption 1: Raw Magic is either endless in scope, or so much larger than Weave/Shadow Weave so as to render it seemingly infinite.
Assumption 2: The amount of energy channelled into Magic is a linear function of the "aperture width" (diameter of a 'hose') metaphor.
Assumption 3: There can be interaction effects (synergy) between Energies processed and channelled by Weave and Shadow Weave. (needed to explain Vortices, Karstone Effects, etc, and several others).
Assumption 4: Energy cannot be created or destroyed. (Energy Conservation)
Assumption 5: Each Weave is a store house of a great mass of energy. I.e. weave is very 'energetically' laden.
Silverfire lore cited as supporting evidence.
Assumption 6: Conservation of energy applies between Raw Magic to 5 Planes.
Assumption7: The Weave's metaphysical Space (its planes) and the Shadow Weave's metaphysical space are independent dimensions. I mean that space and non-space operate to independent laws. That is, they have different laws of organisation that are non-overlapping.
Section 1: The Energy-Tenets and Energy-Assumptions of Weave-Shadow Weave Theory
Maths:
Think of all the strands of the Weaves - their total number is shortened to "Weave-Conduit-Space".
Weave-Conduit-Space (WCS) has an upper limit, and a lower limit (the -12 +12 idea). Think of each number as a spell. -12 for a twelfth level Shadow Weave Spell, and +12 for, a 12th level Weave Magic Spell.
Important Limit: WCS is finite, (i.e. it's always between -12 to +12) at any point in the Netherise Timeline. But, the "state of repair" of The Weave and also its porfolio, limits the highest level spell castable at any time.
Or said more technical and 'tight': The Weave's 'structural integrity' can mean that not all of the WCS can be tapped into at once.
Think of the example, here of "Mystra's recovering Weave" - which only uses a fraction of +12/-12 potential.
Two important consequences of important "limit" above:
a. A Damaged Weave limits the amount of gas that can be channeled into realmspace at any moment.
b. Shadow Weave does not strike extremes of WCS - either because its 'structural integrity' limits its potential (inately) - or because of the Deity(ies) limit(s) (by way of portfolio or Deity-essence). E.g. -12 to +9? But never -12 to +12 unassisted. Evidence cited here: Shar needs the Karstone to grant high level spells to her followers.
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Section 2: Speaking to The Planes of Theory: Realmspace, Weave Space, Shadow-Weave Space (in Non-Space)
(more Sciency-"tight" - but sorta yucky: The Dimensional features - Space, Non-Space, and the Minimum Degrees of Freedom required to accommodate Space and Non-Space)
We need at least five planes (5 metaphysical or mathematical) dimensions.
Why?......because.....we already have three (3D space) and Multifinality says "one river splits into streams". Raw magic goes into two sets of very different 'streams' or conduits (Weave and Shadow Weave). This splitting of the river takes Raw Magic into Weave Space (which has 'volume' - think of the size of the Mythallar) and Shadow Weave Space (which has 'no volume' - think of the smaller size of the Shadow Mythallar).
So, 3D + Weave Space + Shadow Weave Non-Space = 5 Planes.
Shadow Weave is in non-space - a different 'plane' or 'metaphysical' dimension.
Said in 'tighter' voice:
Multifinality cited (i.e. one energy source = raw magic which - splits into two streams
- one stream runs into Space (Mystra's Weave - that occupies volume)
- and the second stream runs into Non-Space (The Shadow Weave's non-space - that does not occupy volume).
Volume of Shadow Mythallar c.f. volume of Mythallar cited as supporting evidence. Thank you Azuth for pointing this out.....
Now - what happens when a spell is cast - the weaves pour magic into the world. That is, the Streams Converge - Equifinality. That is, the weaves pour into 3D space - they 'converge' on 3D space.
Said more "tightly"
Equifinality cited for following reason:
- The weave conduits re-converge in Realmspace in the Prime Material Plane.
- Because of equifinality, one 3D space can be co-occupied by Weave and Shadow Weave space, even though each Weave/Shadow Weave's metaphysical space is non-overlapping. (5 dimensions)
I'll say Section 3. in a different Post - to space it out.
cheers
sil |
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Silmarien Aldalome
Acolyte
Australia
24 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2003 : 13:58:20
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Section 3. Theory and Faerunian Lore
a. The battle between Shar and Selune involved the collision of Positive and Negative valence energy (turns to Alratan - thanks and acknowledged important point about valence of energy being distinct from 'alignment').
b. This collision caused or merging caused an interaction/annihilation/birthing effect - to birth both the Weave and Shadow Weave at day dot.
c. After birth, Mystryl originally was the being who straddled both metaphsyical dimensions (Space and Non-space).
d. Karsus Avatar spell resulted in 'control falling to another' by way of a 'split' in Mystryl's Metaphysical Presence. I.e. Mystra does not straddle non space after Karsus, where Mystryl did.
e. Shar now straddles Shadow Weave non-space, and Mystra Weave Space.
f. Mythallar explode on suspension of Weave by deity's death because raw magic has no outlets from Weave Space into realm space. There is an accumulation inside Mythallar device - of raw magic - leading to destruction of Mythallar.
Note, Shadow Mythallar don't explode because it occupies indepenent metaphysical space (see Multifinality comments above). The reason that Shadow Mythallar didn't explode at Karsus Avatar was because, Shar understood 'her own substance' when Mystryl copped it, and very quickly intervened to stop blockage in Non-Space. Shadow Mythallar were thus spared.
Theory is both TWC and OWGS.
g. Multiple "weave organisations" (weave types) are allowed in 3D space because Weave-Space and Shadow-Weave-Non Space are independent of each other. Sounds harder than it is. All I'm saying here is that in 3D world, we can have Karstone (different) as well as Mystra and Shar's Weave - all at once here.
To generalise, the theory allows for n "weave organisations" in Realmspace.
Prediction of Theory: Karstone's 'structure' speaks to an ancient Weave Organisation - where the weave's outlets must be structured differently. This ancient structure can coexist in the 3D world with other kinds of Weaves.
Prediction of Theory: Mystra could use Karstone to channel Shadow Weave magic to Mystra's disciples as Shar can channel Weave to Shadow Weave disciples.
Cheers Sil
Last Post - ways to challenge theory |
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Silmarien Aldalome
Acolyte
Australia
24 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2003 : 14:04:02
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Unexplored Areas
- Whether or not Weave and Shadow Weave can exist on the Demiplane of Shadows.
- Our theory doesn't go to Demiplane at all - that would need an extra bit.
- Nature of Heavy Magic
- Nature of Raw Magic
How to Self-Correct our theory
- Any assumption of theory is challengable. Grab a piece of Lore, and see if it does or doesn't fit in the assumption. If it doesn't I need to rework theory.
Particular Personal Concerns
- Valence limit assumptions. Don't know if -12/+12 should constrain.
- Karstone's Whole Magic, and "exactly what" was being channeled, through which bit and where in Mystryl's Weave.
- Assumptions about Day Dot and Weave versus Shadow Weave. When did the Shadow Weave get borne, and Does a Helium Fusion metaphor help us to understand Karsus Avatar Day?
I look forward to your comments.
*grabs fireproofing*
*ducks for cover*
I've tried to accommodate everyones facts and figures. But, my head is so full of new ideas, I can't be sure I've been fair to everyone. And I will have made mistakes.
I look forward to the theory's evolution and modification with your help - until we all feel it is finished.
Cheers
Sil
PS - of particular interest for me -
1. RotA - and its suggestion that the Weave got "split" at Karsus day. This contradicts much - particularly those views casting the Shadow Weave as its "own" thing.
2. The scope, creator of Shadow Weave.
3. The distinction between "Whole" magic (not heavy magic) and Mystra's magic.
4. The nature of "raw" magic - and how raw magic gets "transfigured" into the Schools of Magic.
Best to you all
Silmarien
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2003 : 03:39:31
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Right...
But where in Baator does Karstone fit on the periodic table? And what is its Valence? Probably as reactive as Chlorine or Florine so I am going to say -1. What is its atomic mass? hmmmm? I am assuming it is about the weight of lead... Atomic Number! Herein lies the problem. All the atomic numbers are taken except for the briefly manmade elements... The karstone is still around so it cannot be THAT unstable. Hmmmmm....
hmmmmm.....
hmmmmmm.....
OK! We have to SCRAP the Periodic Table and work on a NEW ONE!!!!!
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Silmarien Aldalome
Acolyte
Australia
24 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2003 : 15:57:57
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Hydrogen,
Helium,
Lithium,
Berilium,
Boron,
Carbon,
Nitrogen,
Oxygen.......
Silverfire-ian
Karston-ian
Weave-Space-ian
Shadow-Weave-Non-Space-ian
Having read and posted more at Faerunian Boards elsewhere, I'm starting to become convinced, that there is merit to the RotA "weave-got-split" theory at Karsus-day (not related to Karston-ian).
*looks at theory*
says
Um, it's kinda physicsy - cause we had help from one Alratan! Who kindly helped us to ask the right questions about what bit goes where. Makes it hard to follow, but inclusive of many ideas all at once.
I'm gunna use the theory in some "brinkmanship" in my campaigns - e.g. the Wizards were experimenting with a Karstonian theory, and ruptured weave and shadow weave space - resulting in an unforseen collision between Weave and Shadow Weave......the theory must get to the Loremasters of Neo-Netheril, so they can attempt to mend the rent before D-Day....
Enjoy
Silmarien |
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Zauviera
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2003 : 17:31:02
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Wonderful, Magnificent attempt!
I have printed a copy of your theory, that I may peruse it at leasure. two comments:
(1) It needs a 'zippy (geeky)' name - think of realworld examples - Quark Theory, Unified Field Theory, Einstein-Rosenberg Bridge Effect, etc, etc.
(2) I look at things from a mathematical perspective - any equations developed yet to test the theory?
Zau'
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Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari? |
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Maecenus of Westgate
Learned Scribe
USA
111 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2003 : 00:31:58
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Great Work! Forwarding this to some of my geekier friends. 
So, essentially what you are saying is that the user (mage) utilizes a certain amount of bandwidth (spell levels?) to access the net (weave) to download information into a specific space (magic)?
Can a weave and/or shadow weave spell be counterspelled by it's opposite or are they all together seperate in all ways?
We could call it the Weavenet theory, unless of course i've completely and utterly missed the point.
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Edited by - Maecenus of Westgate on 13 Nov 2003 00:34:03 |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2003 : 03:02:58
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Hold the Crystal...
I'm pretty sure that I know what it is but could some one refresh my memory on what Karston is? |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Cyric
Senior Scribe
Norway
388 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2003 : 21:39:06
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| the Wisard who become god and ended the netherese empire and almost killed lady Mystrul or somthing like that is it not and that was just way mouch stuff did not read trough it but sure its right |
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Silmarien Aldalome
Acolyte
Australia
24 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2014 : 17:34:40
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Hello there poster! It's been a while, in fact a decade! I was trawling thru the internet, wondering if there was anything at all left of my many thousand strong posts from Wizards on the Coast (anyone remember the WizO's *headache* *rubs temples*), and I was really delighted to find that some of the stuff was saved.
Then I logged on! I was rapt to find my account was still active.
I doubt if anyone remembers me, or Gellion (he posted with me here), and I put together a PrC that Gellion saved, called the Avatar Dweomer Master.....does anyone still post here at Realmslore? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2014 : 18:28:34
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| There are more than a few of us still active here... Can't say I recognize your username, though -- you may have fallen silent before I became active here. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2014 : 18:55:46
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Well some body that has only 10 posts since July 2003 would tend to be hard to recall. I have a hard time getting a post per day average, a post a year would hardly be noticed *G*
Silmarien nice to see you posting again. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Silmarien Aldalome
Acolyte
Australia
24 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2014 : 20:08:09
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:) thank u to all for the greeting. It's really good to find this place is still alive and well.
I've got the old thread information saved from my old posting days. I'll see if I can unearth some of the salvagable stuff from the Half Elven Foundation, and from some really interesting discussions where I learned so much about Faerunian Lore. There were some extremely clued up posters who were walking libraries, I recall fondly.
Cheers and regards to u
sil |
Edited by - Silmarien Aldalome on 17 Feb 2014 20:09:31 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 15:10:37
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I distinctly remember scribe Gellion, and while the name Silmarien Aldalome does indeed also ring a few bells in the depths of my memories, I can't recall any particular times we may have chatted here at Candlekeep.
Regardless, it's always great when an old scribe returns to the halls.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Silmarien Aldalome
Acolyte
Australia
24 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2014 : 17:32:25
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I distinctly remember scribe Gellion, and while the name Silmarien Aldalome does indeed also ring a few bells in the depths of my memories, I can't recall any particular times we may have chatted here at Candlekeep.
Regardless, it's always great when an old scribe returns to the halls.
*big smile* thank you muchly.
It's not like Facebook.....I wish I could trace some of the old names to get back in touch. The Gellion I remember had a real love of the human in Realmslore. He used to encourage me to build massively powered things, and grin when the peanut gallery's eyeballs rolled in the back of their heads... :)
I'm rapt that Candlekeep has stuck it out and outlived Wizards on the Coast's posting Forum. Something to be said for the tortoise and the hare :)
cheers
sil |
Edited by - Silmarien Aldalome on 18 Feb 2014 17:33:38 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2014 : 20:39:58
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Gotta say, that I wholly enjoyed reading your above theory, and was so hoping to find a mathematical formular that worked for your theory.
Personally I have always amagined magic(the weave) to be like theoretical physics and I have always amagined my wizard having walls of black boards filled with mathematical sighs, notations and equations when conducting magical research.
The post kind of relates (or the other way around) to a post of mine about the finity of magic. It was no near as fancy but it was a long discussion about the finity of the weave. Or if it was finite.
Anyways... Great work!!!  |
Edited by - Nicolai Withander on 21 Feb 2014 20:41:50 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2014 : 21:09:56
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Welcome back - hope you will continue with adding to Realmslore more frequently.
We don't bite... much.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7970 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2014 : 22:30:14
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| Some of us bite. A certain cute vampire lass comes to mind ... |
[/Ayrik] |
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Silmarien Aldalome
Acolyte
Australia
24 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2014 : 10:37:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Gotta say, that I wholly enjoyed reading your above theory, and was so hoping to find a mathematical formular that worked for your theory.
Personally I have always amagined magic(the weave) to be like theoretical physics and I have always amagined my wizard having walls of black boards filled with mathematical sighs, notations and equations when conducting magical research.
The post kind of relates (or the other way around) to a post of mine about the finity of magic. It was no near as fancy but it was a long discussion about the finity of the weave. Or if it was finite.
Anyways... Great work!!!
Hey there Nikolai :) Ta muchly. I'd love to see a magic school just like you describe. Lore, imagery and flaring silver glyphs, talk of Silverfire, Mythallar and breaking magical interdicts in realmspace, with a world of Faerunian races.
I had another flash about Weave theory since re-reading the theory. I've been wondering if the Shadow Weave is literally the metaphysical shadow cast by the intersection of Realmspace with Mystra's Weave. This is a very different idea to the rending/splitting ideas that put Shar at the helm of that. Instead, this different idea would mean that she developed a kind of metaphysical sight or sense for where that shadow manifests and how to channel raw magic into Realmspace that way.
I was also always uncomfortable with ideas about a 'split weave' where the shadow side 'occupied?' less volume....(this is from what we know about Shadow Mythallar that are smaller in volume and that did get halted by Karsus Avatar (City of Shades) when Mystryl copped it.... |
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Silmarien Aldalome
Acolyte
Australia
24 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2014 : 10:40:23
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and...thank u to Markustay and Ayrik - nice to meet u....
@reader
Has there been any significant new fiction materials released since 2003, that shed light or that add to the Faerunian mythology. I'd love to know if some of the ole mysteries about magic and, for example, the Imaskari, have been evolved :)
Cheers
sil |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2014 : 17:55:44
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If you mean some sort of clarification as to what the 'Weave' and 'Shadow Weave' are... NO. If anything, it just became more and more confusing.
All throughout 3e, from book to book, the definition changed, and sometimes within the same book by different writers. It was a complete mess.
But other then that... 3e was pretty good. You should try to catch-up. Then, if you are feeling a bit masochistic, you can read the 4e material, where they pretty-much nuke everything that we thought we knew about the Realms (so if you thought it was hard to make sense of things in 3e... you haven't seen nuthin' yet!)
And by the time you are done with all THAT, 5e should be rolling-out, and everything gets changed again. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!! Its a helluva rollercoaster ride. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2014 : 18:33:04
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| Throw in that the weave is just for Toril/Realmspace crystal sphere (as I assume Mystra had no control over the magic of Abeir).... then how much control did she extend to the other planes? In 3e, this would be more defined in that the hells of Toril are not the hells of Greyhawk.... except that there were many intimations that they might be (such as there being Asmodeus and all the other lords of hell, etc...). This extends then to the idea of a deity within its home realm and whether Mystra and/or Shar could manipulate the rules of magic there. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2014 : 18:36:39
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| Oh, and just to be clear, I do know of Mystra supposedly stripping all magic from Cyric. That being said, would that work with any god who had even remotely more time as a deity (i.e. I would expect most deities to understand that they could turn to the shadow weave or use raw magic, etc...). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2014 : 23:00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If you mean some sort of clarification as to what the 'Weave' and 'Shadow Weave' are... NO. If anything, it just became more and more confusing.
All throughout 3e, from book to book, the definition changed, and sometimes within the same book by different writers. It was a complete mess.
But other then that... 3e was pretty good. You should try to catch-up. Then, if you are feeling a bit masochistic, you can read the 4e material, where they pretty-much nuke everything that we thought we knew about the Realms (so if you thought it was hard to make sense of things in 3e... you haven't seen nuthin' yet!)
And by the time you are done with all THAT, 5e should be rolling-out, and everything gets changed again. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!! Its a helluva rollercoaster ride.
Personally I have always myself (even though this might be very wrong from a canon standpoint) looked at the weave and the shadow weave to be like matter and anti matter. Simply two differently charged sets of energy. Also... I have personally thought of the shadow weave as being partly profane energy...
Again this is my own "visualization" of the difference! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2014 : 00:33:23
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| My take on the difference has been that the plane of shadow is something of a "negative" of the prime (and by negative, I mean as in the old fashioned film negative), and portions of the prime are thereby mirrored on the plane of shadow. Shar's shadow weave thus uses the linkages of the prime to the plane of shadow to draw energy from that plane. Yes, there are a lot of things that directly say that the shadow weave isn't related to the plane of shadow... but let's face it, it makes all kinds of trickery and illusory and death magics work better but evocation effects are lessened... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Silmarien Aldalome
Acolyte
Australia
24 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2014 : 05:58:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If you mean some sort of clarification as to what the 'Weave' and 'Shadow Weave' are... NO. If anything, it just became more and more confusing.
All throughout 3e, from book to book, the definition changed, and sometimes within the same book by different writers. It was a complete mess.
But other then that... 3e was pretty good. You should try to catch-up. Then, if you are feeling a bit masochistic, you can read the 4e material, where they pretty-much nuke everything that we thought we knew about the Realms (so if you thought it was hard to make sense of things in 3e... you haven't seen nuthin' yet!)
And by the time you are done with all THAT, 5e should be rolling-out, and everything gets changed again. Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!! Its a helluva rollercoaster ride.
hahaha I totally hear you :)
BTW - earth is in a giant DMZ (Dead Magic Zone) :) |
Edited by - Silmarien Aldalome on 14 Mar 2014 05:59:11 |
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A Theory of Weave & Shadow Weave
