Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 General Forgotten Realms Chat
 Personal Power!
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

rodrigoalcanza
Seeker

Brazil
67 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2009 :  04:20:18  Show Profile Send rodrigoalcanza a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
HI!!!

Firstly I would like to excuse me for my English.

Besides... I would also like to say that the questions that I will do don't have the objective of discussing game rules or systems - only of elucidating certain parameters of power.

I also know that D&D is already in another stage, but my questions are on Forgotten Realms before to 4th Edition. I would also like some of the designers of the List to answer me, please.


Questions: Which are the criteria to determine the level of a NPC of Realms? How certain characters like Szass Tam or Priamon can have more levels than Khelben, Alustriel or Syluné for instance, what are much older and with a very special relationship with Mystra?

Actually, Alustriel and Syluné seem to have (in stats) less personal power (if they didn't have the power of Mystra) that certain wizards of Realms less grandiose than them.

Am I conscious what the “character's levels” are not the only way of measuring his personal power, but after all... what represent those levels? How would it be able to “young” Zulkirs have levels near or same to the of grandiose Seven Sisters?


Thank you... and I wait to have gotten to be clear in my terrible writing.


Rodrigo.

Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 12 May 2009 :  15:40:30  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rodrigoalcanza
Questions: Which are the criteria to determine the level of a NPC of Realms? How certain characters like Szass Tam or Priamon can have more levels than Khelben, Alustriel or Syluné for instance, what are much older and with a very special relationship with Mystra?



*shrug* Those particular NPCs pursued power more intensely?

I think to a certain extent what levels a character has are arbitrary. You rightly mention that levels don't tell you everything about a character's power.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
Go to Top of Page

edappel
Learned Scribe

Brazil
211 Posts

Posted - 12 May 2009 :  15:48:23  Show Profile Send edappel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, I really see Szass Tam more powerful than Khelben, Alustriel or Syluné. Look what he did to Thay... He is an ancient lich, one of the most powerful person of the world.

And which "young Zulkirs" are you talking about?

--- Ed Appel

*** I'm a brazilian FR fan. So, feel free to correct my writing mistakes to improve my english.
Go to Top of Page

Marquant Volker
Learned Scribe

Greece
273 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2009 :  10:22:57  Show Profile Send Marquant Volker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Difine power please, you mean influence over others? Hurling big balls of fire? Be loved by others? Look good in Red (that's for Tam :-)? Others fears you?
or is it just a stats discussion?
Go to Top of Page

edappel
Learned Scribe

Brazil
211 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2009 :  15:46:26  Show Profile Send edappel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think he meant power as "personal power"... Like "levels" seeing as a stat discussion.

"Be loves by others", "influence" and "looking good in Red" (Very good point, Marq ) aren't something that increases the essencial power of a guy.

That's why I think he was wrong judging The Sisters tougher than Szass.. Every world needs antagonistics, Szass Tam, Manshoon, Priamon, Nevron, Fzoul, like so many others, should be stronger than important protagonists.

(The easiest way to increase power is using the Dark Force. )

--- Ed Appel

*** I'm a brazilian FR fan. So, feel free to correct my writing mistakes to improve my english.
Go to Top of Page

Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 14 May 2009 :  16:01:20  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by edappel

"Be loves by others", "influence" and "looking good in Red" (Very good point, Marq ) aren't something that increases the essencial power of a guy.




On that, I think I'll have to disagree with you. Part of personal power is about getting your way, or getting others to see your way of things and act on that. Being loved by others and/or having influence over them can be power.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
Go to Top of Page

Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
149 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2012 :  03:03:37  Show Profile  Visit Eli the Tanner's Homepage Send Eli the Tanner a Private Message  Reply with Quote
As Ed often explains, these sort of judgements are very hard to quantify (despite being inherantly quantified).

Sadly, I'm not a game designer but I have created more than my fair share of npc's, monsters and encounters as a DM. So I'll have a crack at answering your questions anyhow.

In D&D a character's 'level' is said to represent his applied experience in whichever field he has pursued. The abilities demonstrated in these stats are quite a loose definition of their 'power' as you call it. Such stats try to combine a very complex mix of innate ability (str, dex, con, etc.), learned experience (levels), training (skills, feats, powers etc.), and circumstantial/luck-based differences(hit points, equipment et al).

quote:
Originally posted by rodrigoalcanza

Questions: Which are the criteria to determine the level of a NPC of Realms? How certain characters like Szass Tam or Priamon can have more levels than Khelben, Alustriel or Syluné for instance, what are much older and with a very special relationship with Mystra?

Actually, Alustriel and Syluné seem to have (in stats) less personal power (if they didn't have the power of Mystra) that certain wizards of Realms less grandiose than them.


Adjucating the level of a NPC is quite a holistic art...and (outside of a balanced adventure setting) is a fine juggling act of finding the appropiate rules within the system to represent the character in mind. Weighing up why Szass Tam might have more or less levels than Alustriel is something that the creator of those concepts will intuit through the rules.

The trouble is when you try to analyze and quantify the history, talent, experiences, skill and innumerable factors that make up these individuals that it can seem daunting. But generally it really is just a ball park approximation of what you want from that character. I tend to compare character creation to sculpting. You start with a block of stone and you are chipping away and shaping it to reveal the person within. Eventually you'll step back when you are happy that you've caught their likeness enough...not taken off too much stone but not left too much on.

quote:
Originally posted by rodrigoalcanza

Am I conscious what the “character's levels” are not the only way of measuring his personal power, but after all... what represent those levels? How would it be able to “young” Zulkirs have levels near or same to the of grandiose Seven Sisters?


The best answer I've heard on the matter of ranking characters of the realms is from Ed himself and how difficult it can be to make calls about even a single aspect of a character.

Now this response concerns "swordsmen" of the realms rather than spellcasters but it can easily be appled to both and will give you a good idea of how these judgements are made...and how tricky these questions are to answer. I'd love to expound more upon this but I feel my post is already overlong and Ed really does say it best.

quote:
Originally posted by TheHoodedOne

Well, now. “Swordsmen” you say, so I’m going to narrow my reply down to: male living (not dead or undead) humans.
I’m going to further qualify my reply by saying that among the most skilled masters of bladework, “best” becomes a matter of opinion regarding style, and the average observer can’t identify (let alone properly interpret) most subtle differences because they’re either dead too quickly, or too dazzled by things that happen too swiftly for them to see properly and too deftly for them to measure or grasp the implications of (matters of shifting a foe just a little off balance, or forcing a movement in stance or location, that will lead to a killing stroke three or four maneuvers later).
Moreover, “best” is a steadily shifting title, even when one sets aside divine and magical meddling, because (as with real-world tennis) youthful speed and acrobatic suppleness, plus freedom from injuries and the slowing and crippling effects of aging (on, say, the human knee), must always be balanced against the experience gained in duel after duel after battle: young swordsmen are always rising to the fore, but only step into the ranks of the “best” when those more expert through real-life practice grow too slow to defeat the most skilled younglings (or the younglings overcome their inexperience).
I’m also going to restrict myself purely to matters of bladework, in a one-on-one fight in surroundings that favour neither combatant. In other words, I’m minimizing “street smarts” or dirty fighting or the adventurers’ experience in exploiting traction, lighting, obstacles, distractions, and all of that: factors that seasoned adventurers (like Durnan of Waterdeep) can use to defeat foes who might be a shade faster or a whit better in pure bladework. This will work against Artemis Entreri, for example, but also against a host of other adventurers whom I won’t even mention in this reply, but who might otherwise show up in my answer.
(Personally, I’d rather not do any “best of” rankings, because I think they’re subjective, snapshots of moments in time that are dated even as they’re made, and a bit pointless. Even in pure-skill tournaments, upsets occur, and if a DM wants to create an unknown who’s better than the individuals mentioned here, go right ahead.)

Now, some may say that the levels given on this list are a bit low for “best” wielders-of-blades, but I say again: the only meaningful way I could answer Feanor’s question was to narrow my consideration of best to a definition of: supreme technique (superior finesse, if you will) in bladework. Otherwise, there are too many variables (X is alive today because Y slipped, or a deity who smiled on X MADE Y slip, or because X knew the darkened room they were fighting in just a little bit better, or because when the guards burst in it was Y who got his swordarm jarred for a critical moment, not X, or because it was X whose friends burst in, or Y the startled guard happened to stagger into . . . and so on). I believe THO and I have sufficiently communicated the difficulty of choosing “best” bladewielders to Feanor, our most important point being that there are another forty or so individuals, some famous and some publicly unknown, who are so close in skills to those I mentioned as to be “practically as good” if you don’t happen to be the Creator of the Realms and thus able to split Faerûnian hairs better than anyone else. :} (And, I remind you, I’m leaving out creatures - - mariliths, just to give one example - - who have more than two arms, and so can fence with a forest of skillfully-swung blades.) There are certainly combat-active beings in the Realms with higher levels than these folks, who would probably beat them in most fights; the “best” swordsman doesn’t always win.

So saith Ed



P.S. I've edited Ed's reply down just to the matter of how one tries to answer the question (there is a host of more wonderful discussion and lore on the 'bladesmen' if you are interested).

Moderator of /r/Forgotten_Realms
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2024 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000