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Alkhan
Acolyte
Italy
3 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Jan 2009 : 18:44:19
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I spent a lot of time using the search function, due to the great extension of your collected scrolls about every possible matter. But I think to be unable to find what I am looking for...
So I want apologize if I write something already discussed somwehere else!
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My question is:
may clerics of the Realms get married?
I have this doubt thinking about the meaning of the world "cleric" in my tradition (italian & catholic church), where this word suggests a man not completly ordained priest, without the duty of celibacy (and without the powers of a priest). But the AD&D and 3.5 Player's Handbook describe it more like a monk-knight than a pure cleric, and give him access to spells/powers which are priestly indeed. So, thinking about the fittest role for the class in the Forgotten Realms and not in a homemade setting, I stumbled on the former question.
And I suppose the answer is:
it depends.
Given that cleric = priest in a D&D context, his choice for marriage dipends
1) by the kind of church
2) by the role of the character involved
The first sentence means (in my opinion) that:
a) churches devoted to zealot (LN and LE) deities won't tolerate that its members place their family or couple needs after the rituals/the duties to be performed day by day/during adventures
b) churches of true evil (CE) gods despise love (or property), so "marriage" it's a senselesse word
c) churches of jealous (NE) gods can tolerate a married member if this brings in profits to the church itself
The second sentence means (if it means something in english :P) that:
a) if the cleric is a "missionary" (an adventuring PC, a NPC in quest for something), then he can do whatever he wants or he has to want (for NPCs)
a) if the cleric is a "priest" (a PC with a specific role in his church) then he must look at the customs of his church, which could mean to get married and to give up the possibility to be high priest.
The second aspect of the question is related to the marriage in itself. There is - and I read - another discussion about this topic, but it's quite vague, because the problem was "how a church will celebrate it".
My question is: there are churches (only of evil gods?) which refuse to consider even the possibility of a celebration? If marriage is done to the best by interest, are for them any "blessings" upon husband and wife a waste of time (and spells)? In this case, two commoners should refer to the civil authority?
That's all for now :P
In Italy we say "these are goat-wool questions". Hope you don't, lol
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2009 : 19:32:03
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Most churches do allow their clerics to marry. It's something Ed has discussed, more than once, in his scrolls. We do have a compilation of Ed's answers, so you can download and peruse the files at length -- it's easier than going thru the search function.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 09 Jan 2009 19:36:20 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2009 : 23:17:44
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And Ed's previously detailed some examples of specific wedding ceremonies for particular faiths that, perhaps, could be used as a basis for clerical unions.
Just perform a search through the "So Saith Ed" archives.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 01:14:21
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| the pool of radiance trilogy shows one example with a cleric of Tyr. |
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Alkhan
Acolyte
Italy
3 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2009 : 10:21:43
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Thank you all! What an inexperienced scholar :P
I'll gladly read what Ed (at first I didn't believed he was.. HE!) saith.
-- and bowing out of the Sages, he left the Reference Desk to go and read the Most Holy Tomes of Green Wisdom |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2009 : 00:00:06
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| And, for the record, I cannot recall any deity of the Realms who actually requires priests to remain celibate. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 11 Jan 2009 00:00:19 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2009 : 06:45:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
And, for the record, I cannot recall any deity of the Realms who actually requires priests to remain celibate.
There was a god of celibacy, but he ran out of followers a generation after he appeared.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2009 : 21:21:47
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Religious rules for keeping the clergy from marrying should have some kind of rationalization.
Saying that evil gods wouldn't want their clergy to marry because marriage is about love and love and evil don't fit together doesn't work for me. Marriage doesn't have to be about love and an evil church could support marriage as a benefit for the clergy so they have both someone who must answer to them on a personal level and someone whom no one else is allowed to have.
Saying that marriage is about rules and order doesn't work for me either just because chaotic people can love and want to be with only one person for the rest of their chaotic lives.
And there's no reason to even argue for good or lawful gods wanting to encourage marriage, though some may want to argue discouraging allowance of clergy to marry.
So what would be reasons for or against clergy marrying and how could they be applied to the Realms? Purity? Loss of focus? Philosophical disagreement with the concept of joining two sentient beings in marriage at all? For every argument that could be made for one side with regard to a specific religion, I'm sure there's someone who could come up with a reasonable counter point.
But why bother figuring out what dieties want? I think its more interesting that their are different factions amongst mortal of followers. One church might interpret a given diety's teachings one way, and another in a different geographical area may choose a different path. Would the diety in question settle the answer and unify both sides? If they were willing to do that, they might risk losing followers... most likely from the side getting corrected information. Some might like the confirmation of their diety settling the rule one way or the other, even if it means changing from established church doctrine. Others may see the diety as weak for accomodating the opposing faction. Its possible that some may like the status quo and just seek a new religion that has rules similar to what they were following and accept the new god's dogma more as a rejection of the change in their old religion.
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Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2009 : 21:46:51
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I think that the Realms leans toward more openness as regards marriage, where marriage restrictions from faith are the rare exception, rather than the rule. Also, from my understanding, marriage is not given quite the same focus in the Realms as it was/is in our world--while it is important for passing on land and wealth, it isn't as much the big deal as it was in the Renaissance or before (where you had to practically had to get married or were set outside society). Realmsian marriages are more optional for the lower classes, and almost always an arrangement of love and devotion, rather than financial duty.
On the subject of how faiths view marriage by alignment, I had a couple thoughts:
I think drive for marriage has more to do with the alignment of the person, and less with the faith, though proponents of a particular faith are, of course, more likely to be of that alignment.
People of all alignments are quite capable of love and affection--or, at least, their alignment doesn't necessarily mean they can't love or be loved.
This is exemplified by the evil-aligned zhent wizard who comes home from a day of theft, murder, and treachery to tuck his children in at night and read poetry back and forth with his wife. He may be more likely to see his family as disposable or quick to see treachery in his wife's activities, but his evil alignment doesn't mean he isn't open to affection.
But marriage =/= love, necessarily, which is an important distinction to make. Marriage is a legal binding between people, mostly for the purpose of social recognition and hereditary rights. It seems to me more likely that lawfully aligned people would gravitate toward the commitment of marriage, and chaotically aligned would stay away, wanting to preserve their own freedom of relationships.
This is, as noted, not to suggest that somehow lawful people are more likely to build romances than chaotic people (certainly not!). They're just probably more likely to cement them with marriage.
I like also what N2H said about variation across different branches of a faith--one could certainly play that up in a game or Realmsian story.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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rjfras
Learned Scribe
261 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2009 : 02:07:14
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If you are interested in some of Ed's take on the issue, here are a few notes I've collected that I have in a file called aptly, "Marriage in the Realms". One is from the Realms-List and the others are from the Ask Ed threads here:
quote:
Mailing list reply from October 2003.
Alexandra Never-Late-For-Viands, you're right. Bisexuality is common (and only frowned upon where local history or the dominance of particular clerics make it so; some faiths in the Realms have a tight universal dogma, whilst others have an "individual major temples do their own thing" character, and individual clergy may decree all sorts of things/follow all manner of whims in order to meddle in local politics [for example: the priest Thorogh wants to stop a local lord marrying his cousin because he has his own candidate for lord's wife in mind, so he invents a "holy decree" to prohibit cousin-marriage, and even cousins residing too close to each other/having much contact with each other; some deities don't care if their priests do such things, so long as the end result is to increase the influence of the church). Sexual relations in general have been a taboo subject (another example: in an early DRAGON article dealing with matters Arthurian, the explanation for the breakup of the fellowship of the Round Table was made very difficult after the editorial decision that Lancelot and Guinevere couldn't be described as "lovers"), and I see the Elversult FRCS entry as being a "let's be politically correct and give the Realms something for everyone, but VERY quietly, so the bigots won't notice" approach.
As for marriages: again, it depends on the faith and (see above) the individual church. Formal marriages (i.e. with written contracts and witnesses, as opposed to a simple private ceremony followed by a party if the couple want it/can afford it) are rare among those who don't have significant wealth or land to pass on.
Some faiths assume a marriage is forever (most of these have been amended to "until death," to prevent undead terrorizing the living by insisting on returning to the house and climbing into bed with them), but most ARE, as you speculate, based on "for as long as love lasts." In some places and faiths, this leads to a swinging lifestyle, but in most places, the public disapproves of those who abandon spouses without good moral reason (the only difference I see between most of the Heartlands of the Realms and the prevalent real-world modern Western society view is that in the Realms, short-term or seldom-consummated affairs aren't seen as sufficient "moral reason" to end a marriage). Spouse beating, however, IS. One is expected to remain with a spouse, and tend them in illness or dying. (And yes, there are a fair number of caravan merchants who have wives in various cities, usually without one knowing about the others, though a few even write back and forth, or journey with the merchant from time to time, to visit each other.)
Formal marriages always have SIMPLE clauses outlining what happens to lands and goods when a union ends, and many weddings involving nobility insist on both parties formally and in writing (with priests using magic to make sure the participants aren't being magically compelled to act in a certain way, blackmailed, or coerced by drugs or other means) ending the marriage, not just one--so spouses who hate each other can keep each other bound in marriage (unless one manages to have the other killed, a risky proceeding because in Cormyr, Sembia, Waterdeep, Silverymoon, and most other "civilized" places, the slayer of a spouse forfeits all property to the government).
Again, there are faiths (those closely tied to nature in particular) who conduct and recognize both "forever" and "short-term" marriages (usually "two summers," "three summers" or "ten summers"), which may of course be renewed. The clergy of Siamorphe from time to time conduct "overnight" marriages, allowing one-night stands to be legal and divinely approved, but always publicly renounce this practice when angry kin complain to governing authorities... only to quietly resume it again, elsewhen.
And now it's time to plunge right back into my "formal" Realms work, so there'll be other Realms products in future for you folks to pick apart. :}
As Torm says, "Fare thee well for now, and keep SOMETHING high until we meet again!"
Ed
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August 28, 2004
many but by no means all Ilmatari practise celibacy. It's a matter of avoiding distractions over one's personal pain and suffering, not anything the church or the deity regard as "exalted." A technique rather than doctrine, if you will, but by no means frowned upon by the church. Like hair shirts, flagellation, stuffing undergarments with nettles, and so on: accepted means to the greater goal. Marriage isn't prohibited, and there are numerous instances of committed partners serving together in the priesthood or in lay worship, dealing loving pain to each other (S&M devotees take note).
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In "my" Realms, there's no general prejudice against love of same gender or love of both genders. There ARE individuals who hold such prejudices, and in general, members of nobility or royalty or any other group in which lineage and inheritance is important frown on deviance from whatever their locally accepted norm of pairing is, so that "the line can be maintained in a clear, can't-be-challenged manner."
On to polyamory (committed relationships): quite common in backlands Realms villages, often 'dressed up' in annual festival customs (such as Midsummer Night) to make the maximum number of people comfortable with it. In many farming and frontier areas of the Realms, "families" dwelling and working together may consist of several males and several females, not "one-man-one-woman." Again, don't expect this to be underscored in print in official products, because it points towards incest and the polygamous controversies current in some American states, and in general upsets some folks who might otherwise happily buy Realms products. Remember the editorial fits I caused just mentioning brothelsXXXX ahem, "festhalls." My view was that I was just reporting, a la National Geographic: 'The native women have long, floppy...' and the TSR editors disagreed violently. BTW, the very existence of all those brothels point to the number of men and women in the Realms who want casual sex, or who don't get what they want at home, or who don't want to wait until they get home. Sex IS alive and well in the Realms.
So, yes, Alustriel does take pleasure in hosting orgies in which she physically enjoys both males and females, and lots of them enjoy each other, and lah dee dee dah dah. This does not make her a nymphomaniac, an empty-headed lust bunny, or deficient in any way. In fact, she's achieved more through seduction and founding firm friendships and making others long for another chance to dive into the comfort of one of Alustriel's large and well-filled baths than many rulers ever manage with dozens of treaties and scores of wars, skirmishes, and threats.
If you need validation, yes, Alustriel and Zelauma make love. Storm makes love with both guys and gals (the Harpers don't regard her as a 'den mother' for nothing :} ). Think of her as the comforting arms they run to, for advice and soothing companionship and understanding. However, she does as much listening and dispensing warm soup as she does riding and being ridden.
So let me say just this much: most males in the Realms weep, hug, and even caress and kiss as much as real-world modern females do. How comfortable a given character is with doing such things with others of the same gender (or, for that matter, with persons of different races) varies widely -- but it's safe to say that given the opportunity, most characters have "tried everything" at least once, and between travelers outside their own communities (where such acts might well upset family members, especially if loss of virginity is involved), there's little or no stigma in such experimentation.
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2009 : 13:23:16
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Keep in mind how many different sects there are for each faith. Each sect is going to rule on marriage of the clergy and have their own traditions on the subject.
Also, it would seem to me that for deities that favor growth and love and change and whatnot, marriage would be a sacred thing for the clergy as well as the secular person - I could imagine more 'conservative' sects of Sune, Lathander and Chauntea that would even elevate married priests and priestesses. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
Edited by - Arion Elenim on 12 Jan 2009 13:25:11 |
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Alkhan
Acolyte
Italy
3 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2009 : 17:10:01
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Thank you for the different answers :) I'll ponder them to find the fittest solution for my game.
But let me have my say.
I opened this topic focusing on *clerical* marriage, be it for interest, love or pleasure, I don't care. Marriage means to me a "bonding contract", legal or personal, between two persons: "do ut des", and the reasons to "do" (lol, a pun in english...) are their own.
So, the link "faerunian gods - marriage" is simpler than I supposed.
Are you a neutral/caothic deity? Let your priests do what they want.
If you are EVIL, probabily "bonding contract" are two words which don't match with your dictionary.
If you're NEUTRAL, simply you don't care, because it's a human matter (but better if it brings any profit to you).
If you're GOOD, then hope this contract be built more on love than laws, and give prosperity to both (for a night or in a life).
Are you a legal deity? Here we have problems.
Nerfed says: «So what would be reasons for or against clergy marrying and how could they be applied to the Realms? Purity? Loss of focus?»
I think that this is exactly the point: the loss of focus. Can a legal god give its "bless" (the bless of Loviatar? the marriage itself :P) on one of his/her priests who is going to marry, knowing that so doing It will lose the *unconditional* service of his/her clergy devotee?
A legal god may close one of its eyes, but cannot invest more on that cleric for the triumph of its faith, because the priest now has lost the focus. So It will never retreat its favour from him/her but will choose someone umarried to become high priest or whatever, unbond by the responsability of a contract (= a wife, a house, children and the work to support them). This "change of mind" is reflected in the structure of the church, its degrees of honour (prestige classes?) and so on...
Then every church will apply its own policy. Perhaps the church of Bane asks for the firstborn to be consacrated, the church of the Triad want the priest serve the temple x months in a year... who knows. Manuals of every edition didn't say anything on the question and the voice of Ed spoke about sex matters (but I'm not sure, because of the discouraging size of "so saith ed" section).
I'll be glad to have any reference to books or manuals where is described how faerunian churches / gods relate on this subject, because I'm greatly inexperienced of the Forgotten Realms, and it's very hard to find in Italy even half of the material published by TSR and WotC during these many many years.
Thanks again to you all! |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2009 : 14:44:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
And, for the record, I cannot recall any deity of the Realms who actually requires priests to remain celibate.
There was a god of celibacy, but he ran out of followers a generation after he appeared.
LMAO  |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2009 : 18:14:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Alkhan
Manuals of every edition didn't say anything on the question and the voice of Ed spoke about sex matters (but I'm not sure, because of the discouraging size of "so saith ed" section).
Just use the search feature--ctrl + F, then type in a word that pertains to what you are looking for.
LOL at Wooly's joke. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2009 : 20:05:29
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| Oddball question, but I wonder what a wedding performed by Loviatan clergy would look like? Does the groom lash the bride (or vice versa) before the vows or after? :D |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2009 : 20:15:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
Oddball question, but I wonder what a wedding performed by Loviatan clergy would look like? Does the groom lash the bride (or vice versa) before the vows or after? :D
During. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2009 : 20:52:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
Oddball question, but I wonder what a wedding performed by Loviatan clergy would look like? Does the groom lash the bride (or vice versa) before the vows or after? :D
I can see the Loviatans being one of those churches that do not allow marriage, and require celibacy from their priests--at least the ones who do not deal with the public.
IMC, the popular image of Loviatans as S&M fetishists is entirely wrong. The true doctrine of the church is that mixing pleasure with pain is a decadent practice. They will often use their popular image to lure a decadent person into the church, and they have a special class of priests whose function is to serve as bait for the decadent. The ultimate goal, however, is to crush that person psychologically, and bring him to the realization that pain is an end in itself. They're pretty wicked.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2009 : 21:30:21
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| I don't see pain and marriage as being mutually exclusive... just different rules for marriage under that faith. As in, one person takes the dominant role and the other takes the submissive. I also see the dominant as being allowed to take multiple spouses. |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2009 : 22:40:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
I don't see pain and marriage as being mutually exclusive...
Having been married 21 yrs, I can state conclusively that they're not. In a more cynical mood, I might have suggested that the Loviatans require their priests to marry.
Really, though, marriage is not about inflicting pain, and I don't think the Loviatan clergy would embrace marriage as a means of fulfilling their goals. Any intimate relationship could become a weakness, an opening through which the desire for pleasure or happiness might creep in.
quote:
just different rules for marriage under that faith. As in, one person takes the dominant role and the other takes the submissive. I also see the dominant as being allowed to take multiple spouses.
Loviatar is not about dominance/submission relationships. There's nothing about that in her portfolio. She is about pain and suffering. All her worshippers must embrace pain, not just half of them. No one is allowed to take comfort in having the role of dominance. He who tortures today will suffer tomorrow. Whatever brings a Loviatan pleasure must be renounced. The last thing she would do is put a whip in the hands of a sadist. The way I see it, her worship is a total inversion of the pleasure principle.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2009 : 00:12:39
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| The Loviatan can inflict pain on the spouse and get pain elsewhere. And if a Loviatan takes pleasure in pain, would s/he have to renounce the goddess? |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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ErskineF
Learned Scribe
USA
330 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2009 : 01:17:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
And if a Loviatan takes pleasure in pain, would s/he have to renounce the goddess?
No, s/he would have to renounce the pleasure. Do penance. Seek redemption. ;)
IMC, it's one of the goals of the clergy to weed out that sort of thing. One way to do it would be to take the person way beyond a level of pain that could be considered pleasurable. Another way is to subject him to intense psychological pain.
That's just my take on it, of course. I find it more interesting than presenting them as a clique of S&M fetishists in leather underwear and thigh-high boots. Most adults would find the latter either titillating or perverse, depending on their bent, but not really evil unless taken to an extreme. I can't think of anything more evil that elevating pain and suffering to objects of worship, and making them the purpose of life.
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Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jan 2009 : 18:02:35
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quote:
No, s/he would have to renounce the pleasure. Do penance. Seek redemption. ;)
IMC, it's one of the goals of the clergy to weed out that sort of thing. One way to do it would be to take the person way beyond a level of pain that could be considered pleasurable. Another way is to subject him to intense psychological pain.
That's just my take on it, of course. I find it more interesting than presenting them as a clique of S&M fetishists in leather underwear and thigh-high boots. Most adults would find the latter either titillating or perverse, depending on their bent, but not really evil unless taken to an extreme. I can't think of anything more evil that elevating pain and suffering to objects of worship, and making them the purpose of life.
That's pretty good, but I'm afraid the whole "hawt babes in tight leather with whips" image of Loviatar's faith is too well established to ever go away by now. |
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Clerics, Churches & Marriage
