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Brix
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 11:34:04
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Manyy of you don't like the 4E Realms because of the things that happened to one of the mosti iconic FR gods: Mystra.
However, Spellplague could be a nice campaign that may end in the glorious return of the godess of magic.
Maybe you already had a similiar idea you wish to share.
IMO it's impossible the Mystra stays dead for a number of reasons
* Gods in th FR are made by beliefers. Mystra has a lot worshippers. She should have immediatly sprung back to life after being killed, only because there are so many beliefers. Obviously something prevents her from returning. What could that be an how could that be undone?
* There are many examples of dead gods returning from the dead, so why shouldn't Mystra, who is a bigger player than Aumanathor, or others.
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 13:29:58
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| I predict Mystra returns for either 5E or 6E. (Or maybe 5.35E??) |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 16:14:55
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-Two things:
(A) As I've said from the beginning, Mystra- fairly or unfairly- represented so much of what made people dislike the Forgotten Realms. But adding her back in, WotC can guarantee that any inroads they made on these types of fans will disappear. I can certainly envision a adventure or overarching plot teasing the return of Mystra, but in the end, it will not deliver.
(B) As has been talked about much, Mystra may in fact not be dead. In theory, she can be imprisoned within Azuth's staff, which would be in the keeping of Asmodeus, now, I guess. So, there you go, that's a good plot right there. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 18:35:49
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| I worked the end of the Anauroch adventure into a tie in that let the PC's prevent the death of Mystra. |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 18:37:11
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quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger
I worked the end of the Anauroch adventure into a tie in that let the PC's prevent the death of Mystra.
Ooh! Tell me more, tell me more! (UGH, got Grease stuck in my head now...)
I'm trying to do the same for my current group that's almost done with Shadowdale. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 18:39:47
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| I am also interested in reading on how you plan to do this. Sounds like a good idea. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Brix
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 18:58:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
(A) As I've said from the beginning, Mystra- fairly or unfairly- represented so much of what made people dislike the Forgotten Realms.
Honestly. That's the first thing I heard, after 15 years of playing FR. Because Mystra is such an integral part of the FR, these people cannot be FR fans then imo. I only can imagine that this is a small number of boisterous people. But that maybe another thread...
quote:
(B) As has been talked about much, Mystra may in fact not be dead. In theory, she can be imprisoned within Azuth's staff, which would be in the keeping of Asmodeus, now, I guess. So, there you go, that's a good plot right there.
A very nice plot, but reminds me of the Cyric/Mask story. May thus be overused. But still a cool idea. |
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 19:17:42
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In my game I had the Augathra personality state "ware the Year of the Daughter Slain for your faith is no more" to the cleric of Mystra before the Sharn went dormant. In the Book of the Black 1385 is listed as the year of the Daughter Slain, so the PC's figured something else was up besides the Nether Scrolls. That was the tie in.
In a nutshell the rest of the adventure involved the characters in a modified Dead Gods Adventure and ended with Azuth slain by Cyric, Cyric slain by Mystra, Elminster ascending to be the Patron of Mages, Asmodeus stealing enough of Cyrics essence to become a demipower, Halaster becoming one of Mystra's Chosen to replace Elminster and the party ending up at 25th level. |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 19:38:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Brix
Honestly. That's the first thing I heard, after 15 years of playing FR. Because Mystra is such an integral part of the FR, these people cannot be FR fans then imo. I only can imagine that this is a small number of boisterous people. But that maybe another thread...
-You don't have to like Mystra to be a Forgotten Realms fan. I am a Forgotten Realms fan, and have been since before the debut of 4e, and I abhor Mystra as much as some people abhor Shar. I'm not specifically enthused about the way that Mystra was eliminated- or that she was eliminated all together, in lieu of being less exposed- but I find no fault that the proverbial spotlight on Mystra was dimmed a bit- again, snuffing it out completely, I don't think, was the best move, but... |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 15 Dec 2008 19:38:26 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 19:43:36
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| Aren't the overforegrounding of Mystra and Shar parts of the same phenomenon? They're injuries done to those gods, not reasons to dislike the gods themselves! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 19:46:32
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quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger
In my game I had the Augathra personality state "ware the Year of the Daughter Slain for your faith is no more" to the cleric of Mystra before the Sharn went dormant. In the Book of the Black 1385 is listed as the year of the Daughter Slain, so the PC's figured something else was up besides the Nether Scrolls. That was the tie in.
In a nutshell the rest of the adventure involved the characters in a modified Dead Gods Adventure and ended with Azuth slain by Cyric, Cyric slain by Mystra, Elminster ascending to be the Patron of Mages, Asmodeus stealing enough of Cyrics essence to become a demipower, Halaster becoming one of Mystra's Chosen to replace Elminster and the party ending up at 25th level.
Uh... 1385 on the Black Chronology was the Year of the Revelation. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 19:50:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Aren't the overforegrounding of Mystra and Shar parts of the same phenomenon? They're injuries done to those gods, not reasons to dislike the gods themselves!
Well, I agree with you, but at the same time, I can say that having the spotlight constantly shining in one spot can make you get sick of that spot. It didn't happen to me with Mystra, but it is happening to me with Shar, and it's happened with at least a couple of other popular characters.
When something is overly prominent, it can, in many ways, overshadow everything around it, and lead to a lot of false impressions. We've seen negative false impressions happen on Mystra, but seeing constant positive false impressions can be so annoying as to make one sick of hearing about it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 15 Dec 2008 19:52:00 |
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 19:55:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger
In my game I had the Augathra personality state "ware the Year of the Daughter Slain for your faith is no more" to the cleric of Mystra before the Sharn went dormant. In the Book of the Black 1385 is listed as the year of the Daughter Slain, so the PC's figured something else was up besides the Nether Scrolls. That was the tie in.
In a nutshell the rest of the adventure involved the characters in a modified Dead Gods Adventure and ended with Azuth slain by Cyric, Cyric slain by Mystra, Elminster ascending to be the Patron of Mages, Asmodeus stealing enough of Cyrics essence to become a demipower, Halaster becoming one of Mystra's Chosen to replace Elminster and the party ending up at 25th level.
Uh... 1385 on the Black Chronology was the Year of the Revelation.
Sorry Wooly, I should have said in "my campaign" 1385 was listed as the Year of the Daughter Slain. I'm one of those DM's who has no problem changing things to fit my campaign, although I try to keep things as cannon as possible. |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 19:56:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger
In my game I had the Augathra personality state "ware the Year of the Daughter Slain for your faith is no more" to the cleric of Mystra before the Sharn went dormant. In the Book of the Black 1385 is listed as the year of the Daughter Slain, so the PC's figured something else was up besides the Nether Scrolls. That was the tie in.
In a nutshell the rest of the adventure involved the characters in a modified Dead Gods Adventure and ended with Azuth slain by Cyric, Cyric slain by Mystra, Elminster ascending to be the Patron of Mages, Asmodeus stealing enough of Cyrics essence to become a demipower, Halaster becoming one of Mystra's Chosen to replace Elminster and the party ending up at 25th level.
Uh... 1385 on the Black Chronology was the Year of the Revelation.
I think he rewrote that entry to coincide with his tie-in. I like that Year-name as well for my story idea. Although I don't think I'd raise Elminster. He's too much an agent of the Realms and wouldn't be able to stop 'meddling'. Now, Khelben would make a nice replacement for Azuth... |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Brix
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 19:59:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by Brix
Honestly. That's the first thing I heard, after 15 years of playing FR. Because Mystra is such an integral part of the FR, these people cannot be FR fans then imo. I only can imagine that this is a small number of boisterous people. But that maybe another thread...
-You don't have to like Mystra to be a Forgotten Realms fan. I am a Forgotten Realms fan, and have been since before the debut of 4e, and I abhor Mystra as much as some people abhor Shar.
agreed. That's a good common ground.
I just wonder what is left of the Realms unique flair, when you take away Mystra, and everything that is connectd to her like the Weave, Seven Sister, Chosen, etc.
but I start to rant.
The idea of the thread was to make the best of the Shattered Realms.
I think for old school Realms fans this might be a cool campaign idea.
My idea is to throw the unsuspecting PC's into a time travel portal. Then they arrive 100 years later and find that the Realms have changed and Mystra is dead. They must find people who still believe in the goddess of magic (mostly Binders now) and revive the Mystra.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 20:04:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Aren't the overforegrounding of Mystra and Shar parts of the same phenomenon? They're injuries done to those gods, not reasons to dislike the gods themselves!
-Not necessarily, no. I dislike Mystra a great deal because of what older, Ed material says she is and what she is capable of, not new, different author/designer material. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 21:04:12
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| I think that Realmslore needs to make mention of the fact that Mystra is the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher of Faerun - no one stays in the post for long. :D |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 23:33:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Aren't the overforegrounding of Mystra and Shar parts of the same phenomenon? They're injuries done to those gods, not reasons to dislike the gods themselves!
Well, I agree with you, but at the same time, I can say that having the spotlight constantly shining in one spot can make you get sick of that spot. It didn't happen to me with Mystra, but it is happening to me with Shar, and it's happened with at least a couple of other popular characters.
While I'm inclined to agree, partly, with this, I think Faraer's point has more to do with the decisions made by designers focusing on specific elements of the setting that's the problem.
Granted, the spotlight on a particular god or character can eventually ensure that readers slowly become tired of such focus. But that shouldn't ultimately result in you choosing to dislike that god or character as a result. Rather, your dislike should be directed toward those who would assume that such focus needs to be maintained at the expense of almost everything else.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 23:52:24
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Granted, the spotlight on a particular god or character can eventually ensure that readers slowly become tired of such focus. But that shouldn't ultimately result in you choosing to dislike that god or character as a result. Rather, your dislike should be directed toward those who would assume that such focus needs to be maintained at the expense of almost everything else.
Well, it's not as much the constant focus, as it is the way people react to that focus. I've a tendency to avoid things that get lots of hype, and hearing -- ad nauseum -- about how cool or uberpowerful a character is makes me want to avoid them. It's even worse when I am less than enthusiastic about that character myself.
I wind up associating the negative emotions generated by the hype with the character -- and even if I wouldn't otherwise dislike them, this generally results in me regarding the character with mild distaste.
It's not full-on dislike, but it's a lot closer to that than it is to liking the character. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 15 Dec 2008 23:53:47 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 00:09:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, it's not as much the constant focus, as it is the way people react to that focus. I've a tendency to avoid things that get lots of hype, and hearing -- ad nauseum -- about how cool or uberpowerful a character is makes me want to avoid them. It's even worse when I am less than enthusiastic about that character myself.
Aye.
Though, it should be noted that such tendencies sometimes don't properly reflect an issue with the character itself. It's due more to the uncharacteristic portrayals generated by particular decisions from WotC.
From my own experience, I still love some of the now current "hyped up" aspects of the Realms, but I love them as they were, and not what they are now. Which is, sometimes, the unfortunate result of actions taken by WotC to continue popularising these aspects for sales purposes. The end result is an aspect I really don't particularly care for because it deviates too much from what it once was.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 16 Dec 2008 00:10:07 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 01:27:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Aren't the overforegrounding of Mystra and Shar parts of the same phenomenon? They're injuries done to those gods, not reasons to dislike the gods themselves!
I agree--I've never had a problem with Mystra, and I was fine with Shar when she literally was kept "in the darkness." |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 01:45:23
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Seriously? When was the last novel that Mystra was a major character? Trial of Cyric (1998)? And Elminster is pretty much only mentioned in Ed's books nowadays. So how is this 'overexposure'?
Ah, don't mind me. I'm just in a ranty mood... |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 01:45:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Aren't the overforegrounding of Mystra and Shar parts of the same phenomenon? They're injuries done to those gods, not reasons to dislike the gods themselves!
I agree--I've never had a problem with Mystra, and I was fine with Shar when she literally was kept "in the darkness."
Agreed! I LOVED Shar as a goddess when I first came to play in the Forgotten Realms. I always thought she made a wonderful evil god...but then 3rd Edition came along and the Shades came...I so disliked the new direction for her that the very character I was playing began to revile her...
So old Shar gets five stars...new Shar needs a good replacement; so I did replace her in the game I was DMing.
More on topic, I do like the idea of a campaign to bring Mystra back. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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see
Learned Scribe
235 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 02:14:49
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I've never had a problem with Mystra.
(Now, about Ariel Manx of Deepingdale? Isn't so sad that she was killed at age 25 by a werepanther in the Year of the Prince? At least they caught and executed the werepanther and his thief friend.) |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 02:17:45
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quote:
(Now, about Ariel Manx of Deepingdale? Isn't so sad that she was killed at age 25 by a werepanther in the Year of the Prince? At least they caught and executed the werepanther and his thief friend.)
Lol. Too true. Good thing Bane never had a 'son' and Mystra wasn't killed again inexplicably by a blow to the head. That would have been silly. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 02:33:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I agree--I've never had a problem with Mystra, and I was fine with Shar when she literally was kept "in the darkness."
Oh, ditto that. Shar worked better in the background. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 02:39:16
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I have no problem with Shar occasionally re-asserting herself and her portfolio, as it tends to reflect how the power of a god can rise and fall as time progresses.
But the continued focus is when I start to think that such elements of the Realms deviate a little [or, sometimes, a lot] from what they were before. And that's usually when I start to lose some interest in that element.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 16 Dec 2008 02:41:41 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 04:07:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Seriously? When was the last novel that Mystra was a major character? Trial of Cyric (1998)? And Elminster is pretty much only mentioned in Ed's books nowadays. So how is this 'overexposure'?
Ah, don't mind me. I'm just in a ranty mood...
-Mystra has an aura of importance built into her by the setting's creator that I find to be a source of consternation, as opposed to something I like. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 04:29:35
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I can understand your dislike. She was set up as the medium by which mortals could access magic, much like the Towers of High Sorcery were the access point for Magic in Krynn (okay, not the same, since Krynn's was more of societal laws than divine intervention...).
My issue is that it's a story element that adds flavor to the Realms that makes the world different from Oerth, Krynn or Eberron. By removing it, every world begins to look the same and loses any reason to visit.
WotC is starting to follow the MMORPG model too closely, I believe, in that each 'world' is becoming like a 'server' on the MMORPG games. 'You like roleplaying? Go to the Faerūn server. Want PvP action? Sign on to Eberron! Just questing? Visit Oerth.'
Meanwhile, each server is identical except for how the players interact. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 12:05:24
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Does Oerth still exist?
And... are Faerun and Eberron still different?
Back to the topic: never had any problem with Mystra. I used her differently in each of my campaings: sometimes I put her on the spotlight, sometimes I didn't used her.
But ... I do not like the idea of Mystra resurrected. This said, I do not mean that in 1480+ we cannot have another deity of the Arcane Source Power.
(I like some of the other ideas of dwarvenranger, by the way)
A story about the "death" (disappearance?) of Ao (As other here on Candlekeep, I don't like the Ao idea and I see the Spellplague as a good opportunity to remove it) dragging in the disaster Mystra, while she struggle to save the Realms and the Weave sounds better to me.
Maybe Mystra was about to succeceed, (maybe with some nice side effect as to unravel the Shadow Weave) but then Cyric and Shar...
A last consideration: Less gods, more Demigod epic destinies open for player! Don't you think? (WOW I can be an Exarch as Nobanion!) 
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Brix
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2008 : 13:03:06
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So how would the chruch of Mystra develope after the Year of Blue Fire?
Wouldn't it (successfully) try to persuade the people that magic without the weave which is governed by Mystra does terrible things with the land and the creatures that live within?
Wouldn't there be enough faithful people that at least a less powerfull Mystra would pop into existance.
Is Mystra floating in the Astral Plane like other dead gods?
Aren't there some ancient precautions that store some of her power somewhere (this already worked during the ToT)?
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Bring Back Mystra - Campaign
